nevermoreHOAR said: DigiCat said: The one exeption in all this is Redo Of Healer, very graphic rape scenes that had me covering my eyes in disgust, but the rapist get all that suffering handed right back at them, call me crazy, but the greusome revenge was pretty enjoyeble, i like seeing bad guys get massacred It was enjoyable for me as well. It broke my heart what happened to our MC and I wholeheartedly loved them getting what was coming to them in his revenge. Some people were sickened from the revenge rape, while I was sickened what they did to my poor cinnamon roll, Keyaru, in the first place. Nah, more than anything else I was sickened by how ugly the show looks. The first episode was almost laughably bad, but I was too annoyed with it to continue. Like, it's fine if you enjoy the show, I'm just giving a reason someone else might not besides the whole "oh no, he's a rapist!" thing. |
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| I don't recall ever dropping a show purely because of a rape scene. |
DigiCat said: Well yes. I disagree with you, and I believe this source of disagreement comes from either a lack of personal experience or something far deeper. I never said trauma had to be exhibited in one specific way, but your explanation of "blocking it out" just is not supported by either narrative. There is a difference between blocking out, and characters being unaffected, and the fact that narrative has largely forgotten these events as little more than historical footnotes has led me to believe that this is not two seperate authors stating that both characters are repressing their past trauma, but that they are wholly unaffected by it. Blocking out does not work perfectly in most cases.I'm misunderstanding... horribly fucked up... For someone who's trying to be so understanding and compassionate towards these situations, you don't seem to realize how insensitive and blatently offencive you are being by spelling out to me what trauma should be how people should react without knowing the first thing about me You don't know what my experiences are, you don't know why i interpreted those scenes the way i did, you don't know what i've seen irl, and yet you have the audacity to say i'm misunderstanding the situation To me, if the blocking out explanation is to be taken seriously, you'd either have a character be shown to be actively repressing those memories through certain behavior or having other characters bring it up to said character who insists they do not remember. Anything that would acknowledge that said event happened more than a throwaway statement. The idea that you believe that the lack of any long-term character shift can be explained by "well, everyone responds differently" is screwed up. I mean, sure, this perspective could apply to someone feeling crestfallen about a test score while another from a more impoverished or otherwise strressful background taking it in stride, but as I see it, the controlling nature of Asuna's parents (Which is more told than shown) and her subsquently being atttemptedly rape by Nobuyuki are essentially the violent culmination of something being built up. If the narrative had any interest in explaining this, they sure are taking a long time to do so. Which again, when enough works in a medium do this, reflects a culture of unwillingness to actually take the topic seriously as something to be explored but rather as a plot device. DigiCat said: I strangely already explained it in my aformentioned reply, but basically.Not apathy, blocking out, fair enough if you think it doesn't make sense, but if you truely belive that at least elaborate on why you think so Cuz from my experience, yes people do sometimes block out traumatic events, and it's not that they choose to do so, it's one of the many human survival mechanisms, i'm not saying it's the healthiest thing to do, there's definitely a high chance it can resurfice at a later date, but it's something that can happen irl To me, if the blocking out explanation is to be taken seriously, you'd either have a character be shown to be actively repressing those memories through certain behavior or having other characters bring it up to said character who insists they do not remember. Anything that would acknowledge that said event happened in more than a throwaway statement, and which follows either of these characters over the long-term outside of thrusting them into a new conflict to get worked up on. In additionOne issue is that you are considering the prior struggles of these characters as an independent event from the assault. However, as you mention before and as we see to some extent in Sword Art Online, Asuna has been placed in that situation precisely because of her family. However, there is little if anything to suggest that Nobuyuki has managed to put her in a position like the one she was in Alfheim, under the complete control of a perverse man with what is essentially godlike powers in a virtual reality world. As it stands, the attempted rape is the culmination of all the shittiness presented in her life actualizing as physical violence towards herself, much like how Sakura Airi's issues with stalkers came to ahead when the digital world gave way to an assault in the real world. Perhaps you disagree, but I see sexual assault here as being escalations of both cases. Sakura may be agoraphobe with self-esteem issues and a stalker, but this is seemingly the first time said stalker has been able to physically harm her. Likewise, I doubt Asuna has been placed in any situation like Alfheim. Even if her parents are controlling, I doubt it is to the extent of being imprisoned in a virtual world with her would-be rapist who has god-like powers to rape her in front of her boyfriend.I do not understand how on Earth you seem to think that physical violence is not an escalation here. DigiCat said: Again, you don't know me, spelling things out like you're some soul expert on the matter, insensitive, offencive Your position does make you naive in my opinion, as my position makes me seem insensitive to yours. I think both are fair enough to make. DigiCat said: Agoraphobe to the extent of rarely leaving your house (To go to the beach with your classmates no less) is a uhh...a minor improvement to you? What the fuck? I would address your other points, but uhh yeah...How has her life improved? Cuz honestly i don't see it Ok she's no longer agoraphobic, but in her case, that is one very minor improvement, that does not mea her whole life has drasticly improved |
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| No. Actually, it does the opposite. |
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Felori said: You are completely right, and I hope what I was trying to convey did not get lost in translation. Which as that there are a "multitude of effects", not that there was none, as many series have liked to suggest. Digicat is not wrong to say that we all react to trauma differently. Some people become aloof and distant and unable to start or desire relationships, other become angry and entitled, and so forth. I just found their arguments unconvincing and not at all applicable to their respective narrative. I am admittingly not the best when it comes to speaking on this topic.PeripheralVision said: I am not saying that every rape victim or attempted rape victim has to act exactly like Casca, but I do expect them to act in the multitude of ways I expect most people would. You know, having lingering issues, not brushing it off because it would be inconvenient to the author wanting his status quo and all that buillshit. Casca was independent and strong, and in a reasonably happy place with Guts prior to the event with the eclipse. That all changed her to a hollow shell of her former self. Casca's depiction and reaction to the assault is one of the worst I have ever seen actually. Of course there are A FEW real people reacting like this and degrading to a child, but you take away a person's own personality and agency presenting them like that. It's the same as the awful depiction in some Hollywood movies that showing rape victims going insane und suffering endlessly, because they love to show women wallowing in their suffering, so the male lead can protect them from now on. They don't want to show the real consequence sexual violence has on a woman, they want to write a woman they can take pity on. Also lot of victims of rapes and domestic violence don't really like to be called victims and I think Casca's reactions is one of the worst, because the author took away her whole personality and apparantly has no idea how rape victims really react. Also I didn't like how graphic the rape scenes have been. And coming from someone who's father wanted to assault them (did to some extent without going into details) ... I don't think sexual violence is so much worse than physical violence. He also was a drunktard being violent against me and my mother and tried to strangle her once to the point where I defended myself and her then. Domestic physical violence is another level of awful, but not less awful than sexual violence. Imo one of the best presented survivors of sexual violence is Ash from Banana Fish for example. I truthfully have not watched many of these series with rape scenes or people who have been raped. (To be fair to Casca, the entirety of the Eclipse was beyond fucked up), so my reference pool is going to be limited. Point being at least with Casca, there was an effect, versus SAO and Classroom of the Elite, which could not be bothered to have their characters be anything but idealized untraumatized waifus. I am also a bit confused by this quote. Domestic physical violence is another level of awful, but not less awful than sexual violence. Unless I missed something, I don't think either of these characters mentioned (Sakura and Asuna) were physically harmed in the events leading up to their attempted assaults. |
PeripheralVisionJun 25, 2023 6:54 AM
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| Guessing Heavenly Delusion brought this about? It would depend on the execution and handling of the scene in question. Know a good number of ecchi and hentai titles have their perverse acts often push into this territory and try to make it all well and good, which turns me off because the act of rape is seriously a traumatic experience for the victims that suffer through it in real life that should be handled more seriously and delicately. As for the handling of it in Heavenly Delusion... |
ggultra2764Jun 25, 2023 6:58 AM
| Of course no. I understand when someone finds it uncomfortable but it is what it is. |
| definitely, it can ruin a show for me depending on the situation, setting, context, characters involved, i might not be able to get through the scene, and drop the show however ive seen some that affected me other particular ways, its complicated, and with some i just had to immediately close the player |
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PeripheralVision said: Well yes. I disagree with you, and I believe this source of disagreement comes from either a lack of personal experience or something far deeper Lack of personal experience?? OMG sorry but now i'm laughing, you do not fucking know me, and you still double down on attempting to sound knowledgeble on "experience" and "understanding", sorry but you either live in a bubble or are truely an insensitive narcissistic fuck PeripheralVision said: To me, if the blocking out explanation is to be taken seriously, you'd either have a character be shown to be actively repressing those memories through certain behavior or having other characters bring it up to said character who insists they do not remember. Anything that would acknowledge that said event happened more than a throwaway statement Like i said in my previous post, blocking things out is not always by choice, it's something that can happen subconciously, so no, there wouldn't be actively repressing behavious in that case And OMG you want characters to bring up traumatic events?? You literally want a scene "hey Asuna? How are you feeling today about almost being raped?", you want psychological realism? You do realize that no normal human would ever bring up someone elses trauma when they're seemingly doing fine, because you wouldn't want to add to the trauma, you wouldn't want to dig up those memories, unless you're a psychologist and that is your job, no one asks those questions unless the person who's been thru it is visibly down and brings it up themselves PeripheralVision said: The idea that you believe that the lack of any long-term character shift can be explained by "well, everyone responds differently" is screwed up Are you for real? Being traumatized doesn't necisserily change your character/personality, do you even hear yourself? One minute your saying "I never said trauma had to be exhibited in one specific way" and the next you go back to "there has to be long-term character shift", you're contradicting yourself, and you're calling me screwed up? PeripheralVision said: Likewise, I doubt Asuna has been placed in any situation like Alfheim. Even if her parents are controlling, I doubt it is to the extent of being imprisoned in a virtual world with her would-be rapist who has god-like powers to rape her in front of her boyfriend. To be fair, we don't know anything about Asuna's past besides what we see on screen, but, from what we do know, her parents were damn willing to make her marry Nobuyuki, therefor giving him access to abuse her in the real world, so although i hope her past just consist of controlling AF parents, i wouldn't put it past them to have previosly put her in such a situation PeripheralVision said: I do not understand how on Earth you seem to think that physical violence is not an escalation here I never said there was no escalation PeripheralVision said: Agoraphobe to the extent of rarely leaving your house (To go to the beach with your classmates no less) is a uhh...a minor improvement to you? What the fuck? I would address your other points, but uhh yeah... She literally only does that cuz she's obsessed with Ayanokoji, she traded one obsession for another, the improvement is only superficial, it did not solve the core of her problems |
| What debating with DigiCat is like according to APolygons2 That's why I thought a discussion would be pointless. It doesn't feel like a debate. It feels like I'm playing chess and somehow lose to an uno reverse card after loosing all my monopoly money lol |
PeripheralVision said: That's kind of an important point...armed robbery is not genocide I mean, I once got almost hit by a bicycle. I was crossing the road when the idiot breezes through the red light, and almost hits me. Fortunately I only got grazed, so no injuries, just a momentary spook. This is something I can tell you chipperly about, specifically because I got away without a scratch. I never got hit by a truck, but that wouldn't be less than a minute to process. |
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DigiCat said: Fair enough, it was wrong and improper of me to go that route, regardless of my assumptions on the matter. I was wrong there. I am sorry Digicat. I was a douchebag.Lack of personal experience?? OMG sorry but now i'm laughing, you do not fucking know me, and you still double down on attempting to sound knowledgeble on "experience" and "understanding", sorry but you either live in a bubble or are truely an insensitive narcissistic fuck DigiCat said: Exactly. This is conjecture. What is relevant here is a variation on Chekhov's gun, which goes from "write only the details relevant to the narrative" to "write details on important aspects of the narrative. In short, neither series has dedicated anywhere close to the sufficient time to support your conclusion. There is nuance and ambiguity of course, but at this point your assumption is essentially writing the story that the writers of either series should have written. It is generally an important aspect of good writing to explain these things.To be fair, we don't know anything about Asuna's past besides what we see on screen, but, from what we do know, her parents were damn willing to make her marry Nobuyuki, therefor giving him access to abuse her in the real world, so although i hope her past just consist of controlling AF parents, i wouldn't put it past them to have previosly put her in such a situation Would not Asuna's past be relevant if she was physically harmed in the past to such an extent, which would explain her present day "okayness"? If so, would it not be conducive to the narrative to actually show that or communicate that? This goes into the approach of Occam's Razor, which basically states "the less assumptions, the better". Your approach makes the assumption that Kawahara intended for Asuna to have a past that was even more abusive and controlling than what was conveyed in the narrative, and that he intentionally did so because of your explanation that Asuna was blocking it out. I think this has more assumptions than my belief that "Kawahara forgot" or "Kawahara misunderstood". However, this is not consistent given that Kawahara also followed up Alfheim with the Gun Gale Online arc, which actually did go into the psychological issues of Sinon and how she dealt with them, while also neglecting that Kawahara himself (Allegedly, anyway) admits that a weakness of his early writing was that he followed trends; hence why that "one scene" in Aliciazation showed up, he was quick to apologize and explain that he wrote Aliciazation around the early 2010s. The idea that you can show trauma by having a character not be in anyway affected by it is actually laughable. Sword Art Online also accomplished this before Alfheim; Kirito saving those soldiers in Episode 7 (I believe) was prompted by him having flashbacks of what happened to the Black Cats (In episode 3 or 4). Kawahara is clearly not disinterested in the discussion of trauma, so why has he avoided any focus on Asuna and what she has experienced? Is there something the narrative I am missing? (Note: I watched partially through Alicization, in case you were confused) Hence... DigiCat said: Well, yes. I think if someone experience a pretty harsh event like being assaulted in an alleyway after a period of stalking or a controlling environment that it would have some effect on said person. No effect is about as much an effect as the television being off is a proper type of channel. Trauma can manifest in many different ways, after all.Are you for real? Being traumatized doesn't necisserily change your character/personality, do you even hear yourself? One minute your saying "I never said trauma had to be exhibited in one specific way" and the next you go back to "there has to be long-term character shift", you're contradicting yourself, and you're calling me screwed up? Felori is right though. Casca IS an extreme example, and I referenced her because of my own lack of references, not because I view her as the only way a victim of her circumstance of similar should be. This goes into the variety that makes psychology such a difficult field. People are different, and there are exceptions no matter where you look. Some people fantasize about wanting to be cannibalized, and others want to saw off their limbs. I also could conceive that someone might not be traumatized or affected by being sexually assaulted for god knows what reason. However, if we take these exceptions and make them the rule, then that opens a floodgate to a whole host of other issues. Is this anime bad because this character is not screaming when his arms are cut off? Is this film good because the boy did not feed sad when his mother was killed, despite having shown attachment to her? This goes back to the point I was making about Chekohov's gun. That if the boy was not sad when his mother was killed despite having shown attachment to her, I think we would expect an explanation. Maybe she was abusive and the boy was merely placating her. You could suggest that Asuna's past was explain by that one minute of dialogue, but I find it very unsatisfactory, especially if we assumed she was physically assaulted beforehand. Which you know, we do not know. DigiCat said: Those were examples, and I was referencing the narrative actually bothering to tackle the subject, not ignoring it outright. I admit, I am not the most creative person when it comes to writing, so my examples are not perfect or close to it. The point again being that the narrative does not focus on Asuna following the incident or suggest that she had any negative long-term experiences leads me to believe that there was disinterest and a misunderstanding on Kawahara's part.Like i said in my previous post, blocking things out is not always by choice, it's something that can happen subconciously, so no, there wouldn't be actively repressing behavious in that case And OMG you want characters to bring up traumatic events?? You literally want a scene "hey Asuna? How are you feeling today about almost being raped?", you want psychological realism? You do realize that no normal human would ever bring up someone elses trauma when they're seemingly doing fine, because you wouldn't want to add to the trauma, you wouldn't want to dig up those memories, unless you're a psychologist and that is your job, no one asks those questions unless the person who's been thru it is visibly down and brings it up themselves To go back to Felori, they mentioned the "women in refrigerators" trope which still plagues writing. Women are reduced to shells to elicit more pity, often robbing them of their agency, and to motivate the male protagonist to avenge them. While I do not entirely agree with Felori thinking that Berserk was the worst example, I understand why. Because there are numerous works that do this shit. It is one thing if a work has, like you said, not have its traumatized characters shown being affected in a way observable to the audience. What happens when enough works do this? When I examine both series in the context of other anime, it comes across more insidious and ignorant regardless of the individual choices of a given writer. When all works follow this trope to a T, it is hard to give any of these series the benefit of the doubt. Another example is, say, portraying all black men as thugs. Some black men are thugs, no doubt, but when every work portrays them as thugs, it is hard to give any of these works the benefit of the doubt here. Which brings me to my main point. Neither of these narrative bother to portray any negative changes with these two characters like numerous other works have at the time. There no scenes focus on Asuna and her recovery or however she dealt with her issues, Sakura is portrayed as being in an even better position despite having come to physical harm or close to it. Neither of this narrative mentioned previous physically violent encounters, but merely situations that were the precursor to that real world violence. I just do not see how these scenes are intending to showcase this blocking phenomenon anymore than a 2000s movie having all of its Asian characters be stereotypically nerdy and good at math. To me, both are representative of the trends at the time, and so embody the issues with those trends, rather than assuming they are "exceptions" to the trend without any significant deviation thereof. DigiCat said: I believe you did, by suggesting that they develop a sort of blocking or apathy based off of prior traumatic experiences. Yeah, what both characters went through is horrible, but escalating into physical violence is an entirely different level. The idea that they have is conjecture.I never said there was no escalation DigiCat said: Just because you and I think it is unhealthy or wrong does not mean the author believes it to be. You have to rely on reading between the lines and speculating based off of how things are shown and framed, which is pretty subjective. I see the following episode (The beach episode, was it) as being largely cheerful in tone. She literally only does that cuz she's obsessed with Ayanokoji, she traded one obsession for another, the improvement is only superficial, it did not solve the core of her problems JaniSIr said: And you think this applies to being pulled in an alleyway by your stalker (Which i think may have been at knife point as well, but memory eludes me) or being abducted by someone and not being raped? What the fuck? I mean, it is true that almost being raped is better than being raped, but that is like arguing the difference between being the victim of armed robbery and genocide. Not to be a dick, but being grazed by a careless driver is not on the same level as being being purposely assaulted by someone who has shown themselves to be threatening towards you over an extended period of time. That's kind of an important point... I mean, I once got almost hit by a bicycle. I was crossing the road when the idiot breezes through the red light, and almost hits me. Fortunately I only got grazed, so no injuries, just a momentary spook. This is something I can tell you chipperly about, specifically because I got away without a scratch. I never got hit by a truck, but that wouldn't be less than a minute to process. |
PeripheralVisionJun 25, 2023 8:44 AM
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| When talking about serouis topics I want to see them in the most approrate way possible to the animes extent. If I believe it the serouis topic is not accurate I will drop it no matter how much even if I like it. In short it depends how it portrayed |
PeripheralVision said: armed robbery and genocide. Well yes, the latter is clearly worse, so we are in agreement. |
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quantumBreeze said: I don't think most people would be able to write anything actually disturbing no matter how disgusting they are allowed to get, especially if they need to make it animated, instead of live action.Yeah in the same way showing several explicit feats of gratuitous violence would do. Most stories don't need that and a competent writer would be able to make something disturbing without employing the use of in-the-face disgusting imagery. |
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JaniSIr said: PeripheralVision said: armed robbery and genocide. Well yes, the latter is clearly worse, so we are in agreement. Well, the point is that both are considered to be pretty traumatic events. You are seemingly attempting to say that being pulled aside in an alleyway by a stalker and nearly forced upon by him is somehow not traumatic because one was not raped. Do you not realize how fucked up that is? |
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| this whole thread is why anime fans are fucking terrifying |
Sakkkool said: fair point. juliayousoro said: this whole thread is why anime fans are fucking terrifying It's a Dragevard thread after all... |
PeripheralVision said: Well, the point is that both are considered to be pretty traumatic events. You are seemingly attempting to say that being pulled aside in an alleyway by a stalker and nearly forced upon by him is somehow not traumatic because one was not raped. Do you not realize how fucked up that is? I never actually claimed that. But she also just got out of a 2 years long death game. |
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PeripheralVision said: There is nuance and ambiguity of course, but at this point your assumption is essentially writing the story that the writers of either series should have written. It is generally an important aspect of good writing to explain these things What are you talking about?? They have no obligation to go into detail and explain everything, especially when it's something that's not the main focus of the show Leaving things up to interpretation does not = bad writing And i'll add given what you wrote next, a good story doesn't have to be perfectly written PeripheralVision said: Trauma can manifest in many different ways, after all. Exactly, and this contradicts everything you've said so far If trauma can manifest in many different ways, then why is it so unbeliveble to you that the effects of trauma could be hidden, could possibly manifest at a later date, or could seemingly look unefected due to a person already being traumatized (meaning there seems to be no change cuz that change has already happened)? PeripheralVision said: It is one thing if a work has, like you said, not have its traumatized characters shown being affected in a way observable to the audience. What happens when enough works do this? When I examine both series in the context of other anime, it comes across more insidious and ignorant regardless of the individual choices of a given writer. When all works follow this trope to a T, it is hard to give any of these series the benefit of the doubt. Another example is, say, portraying all black men as thugs. Some black men are thugs, no doubt, but when every work portrays them as thugs, it is hard to give any of these works the benefit of the doubt here. Exept, not every series portrays trauma in the same way, and not every series portays black men as thugs |
| What debating with DigiCat is like according to APolygons2 That's why I thought a discussion would be pointless. It doesn't feel like a debate. It feels like I'm playing chess and somehow lose to an uno reverse card after loosing all my monopoly money lol |
| Nah, I might get a stiffy and have to watch some hentai but other than that it just depends on the character getting raped. |
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| Not inherently. A poor depiction might to a degree but it doesn't erase everything else. Same with anything really. It's just fiction anyway even if it occasionally may remind me of something. |
| Depends. If it's treated casually or fetishised then not for me. Acceptable: Banana Fish Unacceptable: When it happened to any female or female altered character in Redo of Healer |
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| I don't think I've ever seen a serious rape attempt in a show, but I believe it can be a great way to make a villain evil. It's not okay if it'srape to romance though. But that wouldn't be a rape problem, it would just be a trash romance show. |
DigiCat said: Well first and foremost, one of the best aspects of fiction is that you can characterize and thus have the audience know a character in ways that are impossible to do with individuals in the real world. I will never be able to perfectly understand my loved ones because I will not know every aspect of their personal history, nor am I a mind reader who has access to your dialogues. One of the things we can do is examine on a more intimate level how traumatic events may affect a character, even if they do not externally show to others within the world of said series. Luckily, the author can manifest it in subtle ways or in ways not accessible to other characters.Exactly, and this contradicts everything you've said so far If trauma can manifest in many different ways, then why is it so unbeliveble to you that the effects of trauma could be hidden, could possibly manifest at a later date, or could seemingly look unefected due to a person already being traumatized (meaning there seems to be no change cuz that change has already happened)? This will be my last reply because I am repeating myself, but again, psychological realism. Is this anime bad because this character is not screaming when his arms are cut off? Is this film good because the boy did not feed sad when his mother was killed, despite having shown attachment to her? This goes back to the point I was making about Chekohov's gun. That if the boy was not sad when his mother was killed despite having shown attachment to her, I think we would expect an explanation. Maybe she was abusive and the boy was merely placating her. You could suggest that Asuna's past was explain by that one minute of dialogue, but I find it very unsatisfactory, especially if we assumed she was physically assaulted beforehand. Which you know, we do not know. If you saw a main character suddenly go berserk over something minor, you would probabably want the writers of the series to explain something. This generality applies to many other behavior we may find strange as a reaction.Ex. Our main character of a mystery series is attempting to solve a murder of a wealthy heiress. We suddenly see one of the characters, her son admit to her murder while laughing maniacally. However, the murderer is actually found out to be someone else, and the son is innocent. Now as an audience member, we probably want an explanation why someone would admit to something as serious as murder. This is not rational behavior for a would-be murderer as much as it would be someone innocent. The author could write the son was mentally ill. They could write that he was threatened to. They could write that he was mind controlled via hynopsis, or that he felt great guilt and assumed he did murder her. What is important is that there is at least some semblance of explanation. Why?
Now, back to the issue of trauma, , I am under the impression that trauma need not manifest externally, but with the limits of fiction of which there are few, the lack of an effect shown of this character to the audience is not just outright bizarre, much like admitting to a murder one did not commit. One would be curious as to why we do not see an expected reaction, nor any explanation as to why this action occured. To me, if the author does not take the benefits of fictional writing to expound upon, turn a narrative focus towards, or tell us things, those things do not effectively exist. This begs a question of you, Digicat. What do you consider the difference here between an author not writing about some traumatic effect because of X, Y, and Z reasoning and an author communicating this in ways so subtle and nuance that a majority of people do not notice it? To me, I am essentially trying to prove a negative, that the writers for Sword Art Online simply have neglected to write Asuna having any sort of reaction to the incident with Nobuyuki. To me, your explanation is relying on things the writers have not actually written, and quite a bit of it. At what point are you not just writing the stories for the writers that should have been there in the first place? (Hence Sword Art Online Progressive covering the entirety of the Aincrad saga) DigiCat said: What are you talking about?? They have no obligation to go into detail and explain everything, especially when it's something that's not the main focus of the show Leaving things up to interpretation does not = bad writing And i'll add given what you wrote next, a good story doesn't have to be perfectly written Obligation is kind of a strong word; no one is obligated to write a well-written story, and again, you do not want to go into unnecessary detail. Hence why I mentioned Chekhov's gun. "If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." The point Anton Chekhov is making here is that you should focus on and include details which contribute to the overall narrative. If you write about details such as describing a gun hanging on the wall, then that detail should be relevant either immediately or later on. It can be as a plot device or a means to convey a certain type of atmosphere. Otherwise, these details are superfluous and can drag the narrative down when done too often. Many times I see in creative writing classes people go into inordinate amount of details describing a setting, but it comes across as less of a character bneing neurotic and the writer including details for the sake of it. You can certainly disagree with Anton here, but I think it is the hallmark of good storytelling to include details relevant to the narrative, and often bad to have insufficient details on things relevant to the narrative. This goes back to Asuna's lack of long-term reaction in any shape or form. Why is it that she is seemingly unaffected by the culmination of years of her parents proposed suitor' harassment that was being locked up, robbed of her agency to even choose the clothes that she wore, and almost raped in front of her boyfriend? To me, this is an unexpected reaction requiring some sort of explanation from the writers, not someone theorizing in order to avoid criticism of their favourite anime and what have you. What happened to Asuna is relevant because she is one of the main characters, whose rescue is a plot important point. To me, the topic was avoided because it was uncomfortable and delicate to write about, and that they were acting under ignorance. To take for example Redo of a Healer, if the flashback scenes detailing Keyaru's abuse at the hands of his team mates were never shown, then I would argue the series would be even bigger smut than what it currently is. Were those scenes of Keyaru being beaten up by Blade or abused by Bullet not relevant to who Keyaru is as a person today? Would we not ask why Keyaru is so fucked up and yet intended on tracking down, torturing, brainwashing, and even killing these individuals? To me, I can at least understand to a degree why those scenes exist; to explain Keyaru's current personality, his goals, and his actions. To me, Asuna was wholly unaffected by her experiences under Nobuyuki's thumb. I am curious as to why. Saying a complete lack of response, the type of response as if nothing actually occured in the series, is not something I would attribute to someone who underwent the events that she underwent. Your explanations goes into far greater depth than the narrative actually had, which I would argue is a weakness of the narrative. Or again, off is not a television channel. DigiCat said: For god fucking sakes Digicat. Are you not aware of how racial and sex stereotypes have persisted in media of the past as they do now? I am not the best film historian on the topic. Exept, not every series portrays trauma in the same way, and not every series portays black men as thugs My point was that Felori's point on "women in refrigerators" points to the issue between judging works as individual work and within the context of various similar works. It would be completely wrong to suggest every victim of rape or attempted rape would end up like Casca. It would also be wrong to suggest no victim of rape or attempted rape would not end up remotely similar to Casca. I could argue against their point that Casca is a well-done example, but it is perfectly legitimate and understandable on why they disagree with me with Casca. Far too many works have incorporated this trope (For example, Gran Torino reduced its best female character to a shadow of her former self). When will writers stop it with this one-sided self-serving bullshit? Similarly, many films portray Asians as being good at math. Now, many Asians are, but when nearly every film does this at a given point in time, it is difficult not to be critical of any one work regarding it. It is perfectly reasonable to examine works within the context of what other works are doing. Hence my point again on both of these series. To me, Sword Art Online's Alfheim arc is hardly any different than the various other examples I have seen regarding the inclusion of rapey villains. People want to communicate their villains to be as vile as possible so that we could be emotionally invested in their demise, but this is a cheap writing trick when very few authors want to tackle to disturbing ramifications of these villain's actions on the characters on the receiving end of their action. Often, these works thingkif it was "attempted rape", that these characters would not be affected. I think this is complete rubbish. If you are not going to read what I write, you do not have to respond. I know I am the best at understanding things, and I apologize for that in addition to my earlier behavior. I do try to read everything. Honestly though? I think this discussion has made me appreciate aspects of Sword Art Online I might not have, and more importantly Reki Kawahara's improved ability as a writer. That I develop a more cohesive approach to my beliefs on fiction. So yes, thank you for entertaining my bullshit for the last day. |
PeripheralVisionJun 25, 2023 2:48 PM
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| No, it makes it better. Especially if the girl deserves it. |
PeripheralVision said: To me, this is an unexpected reaction requiring some sort of explanation from the writers, not someone theorizing in order to avoid criticism of their favourite anime and what have you Why is theorizing bad? Does every detail have to be spelled out for it to be good? Does every character's past have to be showcased by the authers? Can there not be any mystery for the audience to wonder why? This is not a defence of SAO, as much as i love the series i'm well aware it's not the best written anime of all time, but it's written well enough that you can understand the characters, something that's written like shit you wouldn't even be able to theorize on the characters, cuz there'd be no good foundation to theorize on in the first place PeripheralVision said: To take for example Redo of a Healer, if the flashback scenes detailing Keyaru's abuse at the hands of his team mates was never shown, then I would argue the series would be even bigger smut than what it currently is. Were those scenes of Keyaru being beaten up by Blade or abused by Bullet not relevant to who Keyaru is as a person today? Would we not ask why Keyaru is so fucked up and yet intended on tracking down, torturing, brainwashing, and even killing these individuals? The difference here is that Redo Of Healer the main plot is revenge, so yes showing why Keyaru want's to kill and tourcher his abusers is a vital plot point, SAO is about surviving in virtual worlds, so the characters mental health, intersting, there are snippets of it, but not a main plot point PeripheralVision said: For god fucking sakes Digicat. Are you not aware of how racial and sex stereotypes have persisted in media of the past as they do now? I am not the best film historian on the topic I am well aware racial and sex stereotypes exist, and happened more often in the past, but they're nowhere near as common (especially today) as people claim |
| What debating with DigiCat is like according to APolygons2 That's why I thought a discussion would be pointless. It doesn't feel like a debate. It feels like I'm playing chess and somehow lose to an uno reverse card after loosing all my monopoly money lol |
DigiCat said: This actually brings up an interesting point to cap off the discussion that I cannot believe I neglected to bring up. You might ask "why do we even care about this topic", and that is a fair question. To me, it is similar to people wondering why do people care about racial stereotypes being perpetuated in media, why do we care about the agency of fictional women who have been through horrible situations.I am well aware racial and sex stereotypes exist, and happened more often in the past, but they're nowhere near as common (especially today) as people claim Quite frankly, when enough works seem to treat rape as an absolutely horrifc thing no one can recover from, it is a disservice to people who have experienced these things and have not become recluses or unhinged individuals. Now in some cases the affected man or woman just does not recover. Fair enough, that is a reality for some, but when a majority of work portrays it as this or that, it is ignorance at best, and self-serving exploitation at worst. Trends in fiction often reflect beliefs in the cultures from which the writers were raised in. So the reason I care enough to discuss this is that I have seen enough works, particularly in anime, that just avoid the long-term effects of physical assault of this nature because it is uncomfortable. Your idea that Asuna could be blocking it out is not only not supported by the narrative, but would also only work if this was the prevaling reactions towards these situations; these reaction are so much more varied than Casca or Asuna. The issue quite frankly is that we have too many works that use rape and villains who rape as emotional shortcuts, tricks to elicit a strong reaction from us that are seldom more sophsticated than that of a jumpscare. My issue with Sword Art Online and Classroom of the Elite is that they further this trend of portraying rape as bad but ultimately not traumatic, so they avoid making any negative changes to the characters who are victims of this because it would be incovenient to the narrative as well as discomforting to the audience, and ultimately something the author does not want to deal with. To me, this is reflective of an misunderstanding of how we react to violence, especially sexual violence, and undermines just how traumatic these events could be. Now these reactions might hold true for a certain number of people who survived these encounters or were nearly subjected to them, but when you have numerous works who characterizes rape and its effects in this manner, it becomes more disingenious. To me, this is the equivalent of arguing that Asians characters who are good at math are not a racial stereotype, that this character trait for a given ethnicity/race/nationality just popped up indepdently from the hundreds of writers working in film and television in the early 2000s. Like sure, it doesn't reflect a stereotype that people believe have some basis (Not that it does not, but besides my point). Sword Art Online became the lightning rod precisely because it is scene as embodying many of the issues a large segment of anime fans have with light novels. Rapey villains was one of them. DigiCat said: She more or less is a main character. The massacre of the Black Cats was instrumental in Kirito's personality in Episode 7, partially driven by both a desire to save people in addition to his guilt over his failure to save the Black Cats. Much like how this event affects Kirito (It is very traumatizing, so we would of course expect it to have a noticeable effect on him as a person) I would also expect an emotionally trying event like this to affect a main character, which Asuna Yuuki is. She is literally Kirito's future fiancee, and is the cover girl of the entire series. I think her, and her progress as a character, is pretty damn important to the wider appeal of Sword Art Online. In essence, Asuna's importance means she is essentially the narrative or half of it for several arcs. Such as her rescue from Nobuyuki in Alfheim.The difference here is that Redo Of Healer the main plot is revenge, so yes showing why Keyaru want's to kill and tourcher his abusers is a vital plot point, SAO is about surviving in virtual worlds, so the characters mental health, intersting, there are snippets of it, but not a main plot point This is different than some of the criticism towards Goblin Slayer, where Martial Artist was unceremoniously put on a bus to become a nun. Some have complained that by not showing how affected martial artist was by her ordeal, that it was disingenuous and used rape purely as shock value. I am not sure if Goblin Slayer was disingenuous and using it as shock value, but I disagree with the argument. Martial artist is not the main character, Goblin Slayer and Priestess are, and to an extent Priestess is shown to be affected by her ordeal. DigiCat said: Not every detail, but details relevant to the narrative. If these details have to be theorized, then that generally means the work is flawed. Again, if Redo of the Healer did not shown Keyaru's past, then one has to wonder what is left other than a revenge rape fantasy? I mean, I agree with its critics that Redo of a Healer is a revenge rape fantasy, but it would be even more so if we skipped the flashbacks characterizing who Keyaru was and who he is in the present. Why should these details be theorized as if it redeemed a bad work?Why is theorizing bad? Does every detail have to be spelled out for it to be good? Does every character's past have to be showcased by the authers? Can there not be any mystery for the audience to wonder why? This is not a defence of SAO, as much as i love the series i'm well aware it's not the best written anime of all time, but it's written well enough that you can understand the characters, something that's written like shit you wouldn't even be able to theorize on the characters, cuz there'd be no good foundation to theorize on in the first place To me, not covering these details of someone who is essentially the other main character of Sword Art Online, especially for that given arc, is kind of a big mystery that deserves answers, not speculation. |
PeripheralVisionJun 25, 2023 4:50 PM
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PeripheralVision said: Quite frankly, when enough works seem to treat rape as an absolutely horrifc thing no one can recover from, it is a disservice to people who have experienced these things and have not become recluses or unhinged individuals So you say it's a disservice to alway portray it as something impossible to recover from, in that case, isn't it just as much a disservice to never portay it as something one might ignore for whatever reason? PeripheralVision said: So the reason I care enough to discuss this is that I have seen enough works, particularly in anime, that just avoid the long-term effects of physical assault of this nature because it is uncomfortable. Mind giving some examples? PeripheralVision said: Your idea that Asuna could be blocking it out is not only not supported by the narrative, but would also only work if this was the prevaling reactions towards these situations; these reaction are so much more varied than Casca or Asuna Pravaling reaction? What do you mean by that? I know Casca's and Asuna's reactions aren't the only way one would react, and i've seen quite a few different reactions in anime and other media |
| What debating with DigiCat is like according to APolygons2 That's why I thought a discussion would be pointless. It doesn't feel like a debate. It feels like I'm playing chess and somehow lose to an uno reverse card after loosing all my monopoly money lol |
| It's one of my fetishes, so no. I get aroused by those scenes, except the extreme ones. I'm currently on a streak watching r*pe-themed hentai. There's nothing wrong with liking r*pe as long as it remains a fantasy. I value my freedom and am smart enough not to commit such a crime. Also, I'm lucky my GF is willing to roleplay it with me occasionally. |
| That may be all I'll need In darkness, she is all I see (All I see) Come and rest your bones with me Driving slow on Sunday morning And I never want to leave |
| Rape seems to be a very common fantasy for both men and women, so it's no surprise to see it all over the place, so no, it doesn't ruin a show for me. |
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| No, if that was the case then murder scenes would also ruin shows for me. Then I would only watch comedy and SoL shows. |
| I found the rape scene in Record of Grancrest War a bit shocking as I wasn't expecting it, but it didn't ruin the show. The brothel scenes in Samurai Champloo were tough to watch (one where the the wife who Jin likes has been sold to a brothel and we see her with a customer whilst Jin is pacing outside), that was ouch, but didn't ruin the show. Rape irl and when seriously done in anime/stories is traumatic and a thorny issue, and is never pleasant to watch. Rape in hentai is just a fetish and completely different, with a few exceptions. |
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| It hasn't happened in anything I've seen, but it's easy to imagine it happening. How a story treats any rape scene it includes immediately becomes a huge part of its nature. |
Felori said: Fair enough, it did seem like I was. What I meant was that showing the effects of sexual assault and such would have infringed on the escapist fantasy aspect many of these series have. These topics are to put it simply depressing, and have the sort of long-term implications for the narrative, especially for the characters who experienced them. I interpret these series as a bit self-serving, and although I do not think it is bad, I do believe they are written in ways to conform to that goal.I understand. It seemed like to think "psychological realism" automatically results in survivors of sexual assaults becoming wrecks alltogether. You stated "it wouldn't be so much fun if Asuna weren't able to wield a sword again or have a proper relationship with Kirito". Not saying that SAO did the scene well (or that I like it at all), but most real people don't become complete wrecks after an assault like they are quite often portrayed in media. And at least I don't think it would have affected her ability to fight (not for big parts of the series at least) or to lose trust in specifically Kirito. Felori said: This is why I love fiction. It enables a greater sort of intimacy you simply cannot have with other people, and perhaps (arguably) that of your loved ones, as well. Fiction can visualize thought patterns and express abstract thoughts and concepts. People are essentially built from the ground up through writing, and although I hesitate to say that most if any fictional characters can be rendered as complex and developed as a human being, I think many works come close.The sad reality is that molestation to actual rapes aren't that rare in real life and most women / female assigned people are still keep living their life, although having some sort of ptsd or any kind of trauma reaction under the surface, but not showing it too much to the outside. When you have such internal conflicts brewing under the surface within the realm of fiction, I see no real reason to hide it. To me, it is generally impossible to "hide" things in fiction; things are either written in existence or they do not functionally exist to the audience. Autobiographies may come close, but they are ultimately limited by the perspective of the writer, who may or may not be reliable or of sound mind, and of the "objective" reality and conflicting narratives; this is different than the intentional writing of an unreliable narrator like Humbert Humbert. A personal example for me is No Longer Human by Osamu Dazai, which although written in the form a diary covers a character who has to wear a facade his entire life. One of his major conflicts is that few if any people he encounters understands his mental anguish and despair. We the audience on the other hand know better, and many can identify with it since this is the sort of stuff that is seldom shown and near-impossible to convey. |
PeripheralVisionJun 26, 2023 8:16 AM
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| Depends on context and personal preference, just like everything else. |
| No. On a side note, do you have a weekly quota of posts? You are always posting here, and I don't see you interacting with the replies people give you. |
Kollpa said: Pit93 said: Depends on context and personal preference, just like everything else. Is there a personal preference for rape scenes? I am surprised this is not locked yet btw. Though it wasn't meant like that from me, there certainly is, considering it's a well enjoyed genre in hentai and porn by both sexes. What I meant by that is the degree to which a scene like that can feel "out of place" differs from person to person. One person might have a very narrow range within which scenes like that "fit into the context", while other people have a much wider margin for what constitutes "fitting the context". That's what I meant by preference, but yeah, the other thing you mentioned also plays a role and is a nice addition. It's also shocking having to reiterate this so many times, but people do realize that non-con can be a turn-on in a fictional or a safe roleplay context where boundaries and trust have been established beforehand. |
juliayousoro said: this whole thread is why anime fans are fucking terrifying Some of these replies reek of terminally online, yea... |
| Keep scrolling |
| not just rape, all sex based scenes ruin anime. If I wanted to watch that shit, id watch porn. And I do. |
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