| wow... I can't believe you would go this far just to hate on mushoku tensei..... I'm actually impressed |
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| I totes agree with you but there really isn't anything we can do about this. The mods will do what they want regardless of what the community thinks, we have that problem already in CD especially. |
  ♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
| Maybe the mods wouldn't have to do this if people didn't start useless arguments over the anime. All it does is create a toxic enviorment which gives MAL an even worse name. Plus, we all know you hate Mushoku Tensei. Give other reasons why instead of keeping the same reason. It gets repetitive. |
| I gave up on character of the week since it takes too much thinking. I'll just change my forum pfp to whoever I want every week lol. |
| Wow! Thankyou MAL! This is amazing news. Something like this has been needed for a long time. I might even start actively posting in the forums again. Concerned problematizers go back to Reddit and Twitter! You're not welcome here. This is a place to talk about anime, not your narrow-mindedness and stunted ability to appreciate art! |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
| Stop making dumb threads and write your terrible takes in the episode discussion thread instead. The only reason you create threads is because no one cares about your dumb opinions so you want to shove it down our throat by making threads, which are more visibles than normal messages. Or better yet, please leave and go back to twitter. |
| you can post controversial topics on Current Events section as long as you put a news article that is reliable like AnimeNewsNetwork there people can freely talk about this controversies read this from the Admin that lock and made that thread you link https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1894447#msg61918648 MAL is always understaffed thats why they cannot moderate effectively only few people wants to be a moderator |
skysurf said: I mean I agree with your suggestion but your intent behind it is anything but justExcaliburAO said: wow... I can't believe you would go this far just to hate on mushoku tensei..... I'm actually impressed You can keep asking likeminded people to come here to echo your post for additional social validation and confirmation bias, but it would be better if you don't try to derail this thread anymore. Please consider reading my post with additional details for a better understanding of the topic at hand here and feel free to leave your feedback afterwards. deg said: read this from the Admin that lock and made that thread you link https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1894447#msg61918648 MAL is always understaffed thats why they cannot moderate effectively only few people wants to be a moderator Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of how serious mods here consider to be understaffed. If only the business owner of MAL would give them enough capital to allow for a few paid full-time positions... I can also see that the post is fairly recent, so it's an ongoing issue. I'll keep that in mind for future suggestions. Thanks. |
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skysurf said: I mean YOU were one of the trollsExcaliburAO said: wow... I can't believe you would go this far just to hate on mushoku tensei..... I'm actually impressed You can keep asking likeminded people to come here to echo your post for additional social validation and confirmation bias, but it would be better if you don't try to derail this thread anymore. Please consider reading my post with additional details for a better understanding of the topic at hand here and feel free to leave your feedback afterwards. deg said: read this from the Admin that lock and made that thread you link https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1894447#msg61918648 MAL is always understaffed thats why they cannot moderate effectively only few people wants to be a moderator Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of how serious mods here consider to be understaffed. If only the business owner of MAL would give them enough capital to allow for a few paid full-time positions... I can also see that the post is fairly recent, so it's an ongoing issue. I'll keep that in mind for future suggestions. Thanks. |
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| @skysurf here's the thing. It is fair for mod's to make an assumption based off what they've seen. If all the threads always end in arguments or debates about morale issues(which are pointless since morales are subjective), I think its fair for them to assume that all the threads will end like this. Also, since the mods are understaffed, they can't really go into every single thread and see if there is any sign of an argument. Its much easier to go based off an evidence based assumption than waste time going into every thread. Unless you can show me a thread or post talking about the pedophillia that didn't end in a morale debate or just a toxic argument then what I said stands. |
| I gave up on character of the week since it takes too much thinking. I'll just change my forum pfp to whoever I want every week lol. |
skysurf said: I don't like you but that is not the reason I said that. You were clearly trolling. The reason I said that is because the reason you made this suggestion is so you could go complain abut the pedophilia in mushoku again.AnimeLeviathan said: If all the threads always end in arguments or debates about morale issues(which are pointless since morales are subjective), I think its fair for them to assume that all the threads will end like this. Also, since the mods are understaffed... I disagree that discussing "morale issues" that show up in anime is pointless. Even if I'm a fan of an anime that has "taboo" themes, I would feel that my intelligence is being insulted if mods were trying to delete opinions that mention those subjects, regardless of whether they have a positive or negative view of the show I like (actual points, not just troll posts insulting). I would dare to assume that an author touching upon those subjects would feel disappointed if the conversations about them were being suppressed. Of course, as a fan I enjoy hearing positive opinions about the show I like, but if that's all I want to hear, that's what fan clubs are for... it's not good for the community to convert general anime forums into that. And even a kid's forum talking about Disney will get name-calling and whatnot if not moderated with good strategies. Shutting down discussions is not a solution, just an easy way out of the moderating work. The understaffed issue I can understand better. Having more mods won't solve the problem magically, but it certainly needs to be considered further as an issue if that's the case. Maybe some creative solutions like having a couple show-specific mods for shows that may have themes considered controversial. As you read in the link above, apparently admins and mods have a huge (unpaid?) workload, so it may be more attractive to post mod jobs offerings for specific shows, so someone in charge of that would have it easier in terms on time commitment, since they are already regular visitors and contributors to that forum. It could also be a temporary assignment while the show is airing, when the forum is expected to be more active. It could be at least 2 mods with opposing views of the show to make sure they keep in check to each other, so it doesn't become either a fan club or a hate club. But I need to better organize my ideas for this suggestion later on. ExcaliburAO said: I mean I agree with your suggestion but your intent behind it is anything but just... I mean YOU were one of the trolls Having a critical view does not automatically make someone a troll. Also insisting in such accusations is not really that helpful for this topic we're discussing here... From what I could gather, you think the suggestion makes sense and is good but dislike the person who posted it... |
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skysurf said: Look at you acting like a saint considering the stuff you did and said in the mushoku threads. But yeah. I'm also not gonna reply anymore. There is a reason those threads were locked. The threads were also cleaned so i can't go and report your posts.ExcaliburAO said: You were clearly trolling Please feel free to report whatever posts you feel are breaking the forum rules as you wish, but for the third time (and last time from me), I don't think this is the right place for you to vent your personal frustrations. Trying to derail this thread with discrediting tactics is not something I will continue to engage with, as that kind of unrelated bait is actually against the forum rules. Good luck. |
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skysurf said: AnimeLeviathan said: If all the threads always end in arguments or debates about morale issues(which are pointless since morales are subjective), I think its fair for them to assume that all the threads will end like this. Also, since the mods are understaffed... I disagree that discussing "morale issues" that show up in anime is pointless. Even if I'm a fan of an anime that has "taboo" themes, I would feel that my intelligence is being insulted if mods were trying to delete opinions that mention those subjects, regardless of whether they have a positive or negative view of the show I like (actual points, not just troll posts insulting). I would dare to assume that an author touching upon those subjects would feel disappointed if the conversations about them were being suppressed. Of course, as a fan I enjoy hearing positive opinions about the show I like, but if that's all I want to hear, that's what fan clubs are for... it's not good for the community to convert general anime forums into that. And even a kid's forum talking about Disney will get name-calling and whatnot if not moderated with good strategies. Shutting down discussions is not a solution, just an easy way out of the moderating work. The understaffed issue I can understand better. Having more mods won't solve the problem magically, but it certainly needs to be considered further as an issue if that's the case. Maybe some creative solutions like having a couple show-specific mods for shows that may have themes considered controversial. As you read in the link above, apparently admins and mods have a huge (unpaid?) workload, so it may be more attractive to post mod jobs offerings for specific shows, so someone in charge of that would have it easier in terms on time commitment, since they are already regular visitors and contributors to that forum. It could also be a temporary assignment while the show is airing, when the forum is expected to be more active. It could be at least 2 mods with opposing views of the show to make sure they keep in check to each other, so it doesn't become either a fan club or a hate club. But I need to better organize my ideas for this suggestion later on. Obviously, opinions aren't pointless, since opinions should be allowed. The problem is, people tend to heaviliy dislike others opinions on morale issues(I am at fault of it too) which will often cause an argument. It would be easier for the mods if people weren't like this(but there is no fixing that since humans are flawed). The pointless part is the argument itself. In my eyes, pointless arguments/debates are ones that don't go anywhere and wont go anywhere. Examples would be religon, morales, and politics. A lot of the times both sides think heaviliy about these topics. For example, American politics most of the time end in endless arguments because both sides have totally different idealogy's. Same with morales. The mods are assuming most threads or post's on topics concering morale issues such as pedophillia will often result in an endless morale debate. Based on the fact that the majority if not all of the threads/post's about pedophillia result in arguments. Mods can assume that all of them will and prevent people from talking about it. About your suggestion.... I think it would be less efficient to go into every post, see if there is an argument/debate, and see if its a toxic argument/debate. Since they would have to go into every single thread, and look through every single post. Which may be a lot, and this wouldn't even be the only forum page they are on. |
| I gave up on character of the week since it takes too much thinking. I'll just change my forum pfp to whoever I want every week lol. |
| I'm honestly not even surprised this is a thing. If every single one of these threads require a mod full-time to manage, then it is justified. If people were able to discuss these subjects rationally, it wouldn't be an issue, but that isn't the case. It's also astonishing the amount of people who assume all staff members are being paid on MAL. The staff members are most likely volunteers who decided to spend some of their extra time to keep this platform alive. To demand one the moderators spend all of their free time to moderate a single discussion is an entitled behavior at best. If you want to make this change, make this change happen. Apply for a moderator position and moderate these threads full-time with no salary in return. |
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| What I mean by « full-time » is inclusive only of the amount of time the moderator is actually moderating. There's several other threads with potential flaming around. If you don't monitor them closely, they will already have derailed by the time people have reported the issue. Not only will the thread be filled by nasty posts, but when these threads derail, users start attacking each other on their profiles and it becomes a « warzone ». The worst boards are often the most popular shows of the season. That said, the money aspect is not even that relevant in this scenario because a company is not going to spend on something that yields no return if they can avoid doing so. I get what you mean though, the forums are flooded with troll posts pretty much everywhere. I see dozens of bait threads everyday as well while barely even browsing around. There's likely a reasoning behind why some get removed while others don't. Maybe that's part of your point. If so, this could be a subject for debate. Having moderators on a per show basis is not really realistic outside of a few handful popular airing shows, and even then, you would need several of them to cover various timezones. That's a lot of people required for moderation in the end. The staff could moderate the way you are saying, but that would mean banning a huge amount of users from this community and things could get out of hand. Some of them would probably feel « censored » or unjustly banned and come back to troll the forums over and over by making alt accounts and try to destroy the reputation of the website. And yes, there are plenty of those around already. Others would complain in the suggestion forums about the moderation team being too slow and feeling offended by some replies. To be honest, I don't really see an outcome where everyone is happy regardless of the decision taken. |
automaweebFeb 20, 2021 11:01 PM
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| Stop trolling, OP. The site administrators have made their opinions clear. You are more than welcome to leave. |
| Many things have already been said in this thread and I see you also found the post I made a couple weeks ago which included talking about restrictions of controversial topics. Controversial topics have been a problem on MAL for a long time (as they probably are on every other big forum too). But in recent years, things have gotten worse. Part of the reason is simply because the userbase has been growing and growing. When I check the users online feature I see more than 15k users online on average. The users browsing forums feature usually shows me more than 700 users. More users means more people who are just here to troll other users, but also more users who just have different opinions but can't discuss them in a civil way for whatever reason. Over the years we've seen more and more controversial topics being made, many times with the intent to create fights. Many times people saw these threads and created their own bad versions of them, adding more problems (similar to how we saw people create more and more of these topics in the Mushoku Tensei and Redo of Healer boards). It's not just a few users who are causing the problems, there are also others involved, and if you deal with some of them, the next ones will continue soon enough. And if there's a topic that starts fine, it usually degenerates into a problem thread, either because discussions get heated and people forget how to be respectful or because some people fuel the fire on purpose. Until some years ago we tried to clean these topics. This might work if there are not many such topics, but with the increase of them it became impossible. Cleaning a controversial topic with several pages can take up to 1-2 hours in bad cases. You need to read every post carefully (and often posts are very long in such topics), then decide what needs to be removed, who needs to be warned and banned, in unclear cases you need to discuss it with other mods. It's not something you can do in just 10 minutes and then hop to the next thread. We added the rules that restrict controversial topics in April 2018, so it's not something we added just now because of Mushoku Tensei and Redo of Healer, it was already a problem long before that. Before we added the rules we had long internal discussions about it. It wasn't something we decided on a whim, but at this point it was clear that we had to do something. Another problem that I also addressed in my other post is that we usually don't have enough forum moderators. You read this post but let me add a few more things to this and to the points you raised in this thread. Forum mods have the title forum moderator because originally they were just this - forum mods. And while nowadays their main task is still moderating the forum, they also moderate other parts of the website and deal with incoming reports about profile comments, private messages, voice actor comments, general reports and sometimes club issues. Most reports are still coming from the forum, but there's a considerably large amount of reports coming from other parts of the website too. Spending a huge amount of time on moderating topics that we know turn into a flame war most of the time is problematic when there are so many other problems that need attention too. We currently have 10 forum mods. This is a ridiculously low number for a website of the size of MAL. But as I said in my other post, it's very hard to find more forum mods, despite the userbase growing more and more. Maybe people feel less like doing voluntary work, maybe because people are more busy, there are probably many different reasons. What I know for sure is that currently it's even worse because of the corona situation - it affects many people and adding a voluntary job in this situation is something many people can't do, even if they were interested otherwise. I don't believe that having paid positions for forum mods would be the best solution. Paid positions would mean these people would be employees of Media Do (the company that owns MAL). In this case, Media Do would be a lot more involved in the website rules and excecution since everything their forum mod employees do wrong would fall back on them. I do believe that the people from Media Do who are involved with MAL have only good intentions with the website and that they try to improve the website and community as best as they can. But they haven't been MAL's owners for that long (only since 2019) so they don't know the community and history nearly as well as we who have been using and moderating the site for many, many years. Also, Media Do is a company based in Japan with Japanese employees. Even if they managed to hire international people, their Japanese beliefs might sometimes be much different from what most people might expect. The fact that the MAL Staff is not working on paid positions actually gives us much more freedom in moderating the site without some higher up in the company trying to butt in or trying to restrict us without knowing much about how things on the site work. Sure, getting paid would be incentive for more people to actually apply as mods. And if it's a job that gets you paid, then it's expected you work enough to earn this money. We can't expect our voluntary mods to work for hours and hours every day. But how would one measure that someone did their job enough? By how many reports they do? People might just pick easy reports and neglect other things. By how many threads are removed/locked, by how many people are banned? I can already see problems coming up here when people do something for the money and not because they want to help. To be a forum mod you really need the inner motivation to help, otherwise the tasks become tiresome very fast. And we already have users complain about biased/power hungry mods when the mods make mistakes, adding more problems because people don't like the job and only need to fulfill a quota would definitely not help improve the site. Having forum mods just for specific boards is something I'd actually also like to see in some way or other. But here we have another problem: MAL isn't using any of the known forum systems. The MAL forum was coded completely from scratch by Xinil when he created the website. That's why it's very simplistic and doesn't even have standard features like showing BBCode buttons when writing posts. Since the forum was very small at the beginning, Xinil probably never thought about adding the feature of assigning people to just certain boards. Then he sold the website to CraveOnline, a company that didn't care about MAL at all so we didn't get any development for several years while the website was still growing. In 2015 MAL was bought by DeNA who had to deal with a huge backlog of bugs and necessary features. They did a lot but there is still a lot of things that need to be done including things from the years of when MAL was neglected. Changing it so that we can assign people just to certain boards would require a lot of dev work and I don't see this happening anytime soon since there are so many other things that still need to be done. And even if there's more time I don't know if this would really be done. I'm also not an employee of Media Do, so all I can do is make suggestions, but there's no guarantee that what I say will be done. Assigning people to certain boards now is not really possible with the current system. As I mentioned before, forum mods deal with large parts of the website, which means they hold a lot of power. We need to be sure during our recruiting process that people are not only capable of moderating but that they also won't be aggressive and abuse their powers. That's why the recruiting process usually takes very long and that's something we can't do just to get people who only work on a very limited part of the forum. With the current system it would also be quite messy in terms of moderating and confusing for users. Before board specific mod positions can be made we'd still need to put a lot of thought into it how this would be done best. I hope this explains why we're restricting certain threads on the forum and why it's something that can't be changed easily. We're not trying to silence people because we want to but given our situation we have to see what we can do to still keep the forum enjoyable for people until we get more mods or better mod tools which might allow us to change something. Going by several comments I've seen in this thread and the boards as well as the private messages I got, there are a lot of people who do appreciate our decision. An alternative I can suggest at this point is using clubs to discuss these kinds of topics which are currently not allowed on the forum. There are already some clubs for discussing such topics but it's also always possible to make a new club for a more specialized discussion. We let club admins moderate their clubs themselves unless something gets really out of hand (which rarely happens - but this means we do expect club admins to moderate their clubs properly and not let them turn into the next problem we have to deal with). Links to clubs can be put in the signature field and profiles and the club invitation feature can be used to invite people directly (it's not allowed to advertise clubs via posts/comments/PMs). |
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instead of discussing respectfully, some people make personal attacks, name-calling and saying things like "swj", and other words that mention something about twitter or the west, which are are supposed to be insults. You yourself call the author of Mushoku Tensei a pedophilia.Hypocrisy much? |
 Scordolo's Recent Reviews To your eternity Vanitas no Karte |
skysurf said: deg said: would a mega thread for controversial topics of an anime show would work? since the problem i see is the spamming of the same kinds of controversial thread an anime show has? Good point, and I think they already put a "sticky" thread on a couple controversial anime but it would definitely help further if mods LOCK the derailed threads instead of completely deleting them. I've seen plenty of posts from new people coming and posting like "Why is no one talking about this??". Locking the threads instead of fully deleting leaves a history trace where new users can see real examples of what is not being allowed at the moment. the programmers of MAL can just make a moderator feature to lock an entire subforum from creating new none episode discussion threads too if a mega thread for all controversy of an anime shows up but ye Luna said programmers of MAL have more better things to do so ye its wishful thinking at this point especially that any major development of this website takes years before it happens |
| meh my suggestion is not needed if episode discussion threads alone already allows controversial debates to happen though i do not check the episode discussion threads of Mushoku Tensei yet but with how much replies they get im sure controversial debates are already happening anyway so ye if that is true then i agree just remove thread creations of controversial topics of an anime show |
SinOfSlothKing said: Hey Original Poster, you are right, but almost everyone on this site is a leftist cuck who welcome their new communistic overlords, which is why they don't care for any form of free speech . But you are wrong when u say that this place will become an echo chamber . It can't become one when it already is one. Your way of thinking is exactly everything that's wrong with modern day society. People who see the world as black and white when it is actually shades of gray. Because one person does not agree with one of your opinions does not mean they disagree with others you might have. Branding others as extreme left or right just because you disagree with one of their opinion is an incredibly reductionist mindset to have. If the staff was actually siding with the « left » or the « right » as you say, they would remove posts in favor of their own political viewpoint which is not the case here. Prohibiting the discussions is not wanting to deal with the extremists that will use these threads as an opportunity to exaggerate and twist the facts in their favors in order to rally people to their cause and create forum wars. It's not a perfect solution, but there is no perfect solution. |
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SinOfSlothKing said: 1. Straight up wrong 2. Its left vs right because all the others in between have no will of their own. If the Commies take over they will take it up the ass gladly . If a dictator takes over they will take it up the ass like good little girls. These are not people who are moved by ideas and values. They move towards what causes them less discomfort. They don't matter. 3. Cut the "shades of gray" charade . This post was never long enough to explain those shades of gray even if i tryed anyway. You are an idiot from expecting more from 10 lines of text. You're talking as if all people who hold a « rightist » political viewpoint all hold exactly the very same ideas as you do which is not the case. You've just proven my point that you are an extremist who's looking to open up these threads for the exact reason I've mentioned. You want oppression against other people who do not hold the same viewpoint than you do because you are unable to convince them using rational thoughts. You are pissed off because the door to do your bidding has been cut off for you on this website. |
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You've straight up admitted embracing the idea that a dictator takes over. You are trying to brand everyone who doesn't have the same opinion as you as a « leftist cuck » or « communist ». When I bring up the fact that it's not as simple and people have divergent opinions on various subjects, you are making fun of these viewpoints because they are « pebbles » that should be taken over by force. If that isn't ideas of oppression, I don't know what is. |
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SinOfSlothKing said: Hey Original Poster, you are right, but almost everyone on this site is a leftist cuck who welcome their new communistic overlords, which is why they don't care for any form of free speech . But you are wrong when u say that this place will become an echo chamber . It can't become one when it already is one. Its they're place they're rules. Not every site wants a fucking argument on said site. People not wanting to see arguments being started aren't communist... If I go to a store and start disrespecting everyone there and start causing arguments, so then they kick me out. Does that mean the people who own the store are communists for wanting to keep peace? |
| I gave up on character of the week since it takes too much thinking. I'll just change my forum pfp to whoever I want every week lol. |
skysurf said: automaweeb said: (...) Because one person does not agree with one of your opinions does not mean they disagree with others you might have. Branding others as extreme left or right just because you disagree with one of their opinion is an incredibly reductionist mindset to have (...) ^ Exactly. @automaweeb That person you replied to, posted a perfect example of what should be moderated as per my original suggestion: people who resort to name-calling and insults because they are incapable of producing actual arguments. Failing to moderate this (with prompt warnings/punishments/bans) will result in flame wars REGARDLESS of whether a topic is controversial or not. You can easily see this kind of posts in MAL even when discussing simple things from shounen shows. Even if a considerable portion of MAL users may be in the age range 10-14 where they're not used to mature conversations, that should not be an excuse to be lenient with them in terms of moderation. Moderation is not about prohibiting "taboo" topics or diverse point of views, it's about filtering out those posts with personal attacks that have ZERO VALUE to any kind of conversation. So once again I agree with your view that the current solution doesn't have the best outcome since it's rather illogical to have an anime forum where you can't discuss the themes contained in the anime, but I disagree that this is the best we can do for now simply because mods can be more strict with trolls; Since the forum is understaffed, mods should not be issuing multiple warnings before a ban. Those warnings may take many days after reporting (and some messages are not even reported), and at the end of the day making alt accounts is easy for trolls. A 1-2 days ban should be used as a first warning so they can be taken seriously. Usually most people are fine at discussing, but a few trolls with insults and incendiary posts are all it takes to create flame wars and give the impression that the whole community is immature (this is the same effect that a few agitators have on a peaceful protest gathering in real life). I say we step up efforts to strategically target trolls without much leniency and soon enough this new rule of silencing whole topics won't be necessary. As cool as it would be if mods stopped name calling/insults instead of silencing everyone, thats impossible. Most people on MAL are incapable of having a genuine debate about morales. Which makes sense since morales are subjective and arguing about opinions in the first place is futile. So like I said before, unless MAL gets a shiton of mods, its more efficient for them to assume all the threads related to morales will end in arguments which will end in insults/ name calling. |
| I gave up on character of the week since it takes too much thinking. I'll just change my forum pfp to whoever I want every week lol. |
| dude you're not suppose to make a bashing thread in an anime sub forum for the series your bashing this rule is as old as 2012 actually pretty sure making bashing/ranting threads in general are strongly discouraged. deg said: meh my suggestion is not needed if episode discussion threads alone already allows controversial debates to happen though i do not check the episode discussion threads of Mushoku Tensei yet but with how much replies they get im sure controversial debates are already happening anyway so ye if that is true then i agree just remove thread creations of controversial topics of an anime show in most anime sub forums making threads that say "I hate this anime." or "this is garbage." or "anyone who watches this is trash." are generally grounds to get locked/banned because it's a bait thread plain and simple. if some one doesn't like a show they can write a review on it, but arguing and making several hundred threads that are all literally the same complaint in a sub forum is not the answer. if your halfway through a shows season and still hanging around and hating on a show I think it's past "criticism." and has officially becomes trolling. if you don't like a show having an opinion is fine what's NOT okay is literally hanging around weeks on end still making threads bashing on a show. you literally should spend that energy some where else. |
GrimAtramentFeb 23, 2021 6:32 PM
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
skysurf said: @hazarddex : No one here is advocating for such kind of threads that don't encourage meaningful discussion. It also appears that you think it would be good to have a time limit based on the airing date of a show, after which no posts containing critical views would be allowed. I disagree, but please consider opening your own suggestion thread if you feel strongly about that, so this one doesn't get derailed. you missed my point is that if you hate a series, but are just hanging around and generally being disruptive to the threads you aren't giving "critical views." your just being a nuisance and this isn't a suggestion it's already a thing mods will remove threads for. there's a reason you don't see SAO sub forum filled with "I hate sao threads." that don't get locked. It's because back in 2012 when people kept starting flame wars over it the mods go sick of it and just locked/banned anyone starting up a "i hate sao thread." I'm sure many of the "I hate sao thread." back in 2012 also believed there views to be "critical." in short It doesn't matter how "critical" you think your view is if someone is spamming board with threads because they dislike a series that person clearly is there just to be a nuisance. people who go around constantly spamming the same arguments over and over generally end up breeding flame wars because if you do the same thing over and over and expect different results people will start to not care about your opinion and see you more as a nuisance. this is the same reason most "whos your least favorite character." threads generally get locked. generally people who want to be critical without being disruptive make a review leave comments on episode discussions then move on they don't spend weeks on weeks bashing the same anime over and over again. my argument is you can be critical without being disruptive and spamming new thread all over on a sub forum for an anime series is not how you not be disruptive. please keep in mind that spamming new threads on an amines sub forum shows up on the man forum page where EVERYONE can see it so if you make multiple threads that are basically the same thing just worded differently even people who don't watch x anime tend to get annoyed. same thing has been happening with the dumb "AOT vs FMAB." nonsense that I keep seeing on the forum main page. |
GrimAtramentFeb 23, 2021 8:28 PM
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
skysurf said: ^ Exactly. @automaweeb That person you replied to, posted a perfect example of what should be moderated as per my original suggestion: people who resort to name-calling and insults because they are incapable of producing actual arguments. Failing to moderate this (with prompt warnings/punishments/bans) will result in flame wars REGARDLESS of whether a topic is controversial or not. You can easily see this kind of posts in MAL even when discussing simple things from shounen shows. Even if a considerable portion of MAL users may be in the age range 10-14 where they're not used to mature conversations, that should not be an excuse to be lenient with them in terms of moderation. Moderation is not about prohibiting "taboo" topics or diverse point of views, it's about filtering out those posts with personal attacks that have ZERO VALUE to any kind of conversation. So once again I agree with your view that the current solution doesn't have the best outcome since it's rather illogical to have an anime forum where you can't discuss the themes contained in the anime, but I disagree that this is the best we can do for now simply because mods can be more strict with trolls; Since the forum is understaffed, mods should not be issuing multiple warnings before a ban. Those warnings may take many days after reporting (and some messages are not even reported), and at the end of the day making alt accounts is easy for trolls. A 1-2 days ban should be used as a first warning so they can be taken seriously. Usually most people are fine at discussing, but a few trolls with insults and incendiary posts are all it takes to create flame wars and give the impression that the whole community is immature (this is the same effect that a few agitators have on a peaceful protest gathering in real life). I say we step up efforts to strategically target trolls without much leniency and soon enough this new rule of silencing whole topics won't be necessary. I think we both agree with the same end goal, but I'd like to add one aspect of my perspective on the subject to help you better understand my point of view since I think I was pretty vague with my posts. I can say that I've witnessed the opposite spectrum of moderation being applied firsthand. The community itself was about as toxic as MAL and users kept complaining about it. The staff eventually decided to take action and completely eliminate the toxicity by removing every single one of the problematic users including those acting on impulses. Alot of those users obviously were not happy, felt unjustly banned and ganged together to mount a rebellion against the community itself. They would twist the reality of what happened in order to get people to join their cause. Of course, alot of users are quick to switch side and always believe their peers before they would any figure of authority. And then there are all of those who always side with their friends/identity group no matter what, even if the people in question are morally wrong and exercise unethical behavior. The list goes on. People often underestimate how easy it is to rile other people up nowadays. In the end, for a 5 to 10% problematic users getting removed, a good 75% of the community was « purged ». For any established userbase, doing a 360 like this would be considered a risky move that can alienate its users. Was it really that important for those people to have a non-toxic environment if they all left after the toxic users were gone? Generally speaking, the problematic users want what's good for them on a personal level, not what's good for the community as a whole. Their vision of what's actually toxic is blinded by their own hate/rage/anger and don't realize they or their friends might also be. They want a one-way toxicity removal that allows them and their friends to remain toxic in the process. Just look at this « fascist » I've just discussed with, he's clearly not here for debate and desire oppression. Yet, he's pissed because these threads have been closed. You can just imagine his reasons for wanting to dive in. If you ban him for « name-calling » and « throwing insults », there's a good chance he will come back and make up stories about how the staff is communist censoring rightist ideas and try to rile all of the people associating themselves with the « right » against the staff members and the community. The reality is that the user would be banned for acting abusive and toxic, but who do you think the users would trust and side with? Maybe some would disregard it the first time, but what about 10 or even 100 times? What if a hundred or a thousand people sided with him? In the real world, this could be the starting point of a « riot ». If people didn't empower this type of behavior, it wouldn't be such a problem, but the reality is that the majority of people are easily manipulated because of their own human emotions. If you don't think rationally and let your human emotions take over you, you will get manipulated. These extremists have been born out of their own inability to see things through an objective/rational lens. This flaw is usually the result of low self-esteem in which the person only see the world through his own eyes in an attempt to find what's good for him personally without ever trying to understand other people's motivations/beliefs/etc. This makes the person believe some actions are taken against himself when they really are not. As long as these people are lost in this vicious cycle that creates sources of hate and anger, things will never change. Now, I'm not advocating not moderating anything, but this is a consideration the moderation team has to take into account before actually banning an individual. Allowing these threads would fuel alot of bidirectional hate from those acting on their impulses while creating more of these problematic users in the process. This could be the equivalent of pouring fuel into the existing fire. In a perfect world, every humans would be able to understand each other and have a proper discussion with no toxicity involved, but this Utopia is not going to show up in the near future. |
automaweebFeb 25, 2021 9:42 AM
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| So um its kinda obvious why you're making this post. While I think it's okay to criticize a show for its grossness, I think people disliked your review for how self-righteous and pompous it was. "Here are some typical excuses made by the fan base that may mislead you" "Good joke." (in response to an argument) "That's a simple wish fulfillment story with no narrative value." And the kicker: "If you're not into that kind of stuff, it would be wise to avoid this show." (which obviously implies some stuff about the fanbase) Look I'm not even that far into mushoku tensei and hell, I might reach the same conclusion as you, but reading your review was just reading someone stroking off their own opinion. It felt so high and mighty and patronizing. Maybe that's why your review was so badly received. Because you were literally just attacking fans of the show without seeing their side. It felt like reading the embodiment of a "haha checkmate" person. Just so many backhand insults. Also giving the show a 1? C'mon even if you hate the subject matter, the art and smooth animation makes it worthy of at least a 3. Just saying. |
    Bandori is love <3 Bandori is life <3 |
skysurf said: @automaweeb : Your analysis is on-point and I understand how controversial topics can be exploited by extremists to sow discord with their inflammatory rhetoric. I also can see how they would try to pose as victims in case they're banned. However, that's how any platform that allows online user interaction works: if you incite flame wars, you get banned. I see the banning of whole topics as an emergency measure due to lack of better solutions at the moment, but I hope we can continue looking for better ones. To use one more time the analogy I brought in my previous post, prohibiting peaceful gatherings because agitators can infiltrate is not a good enough reason to do so. But since stakes are not so high here at MAL compared to leading an actual democracy, I understand if your view is different than mine. It simpy feels like MAL is now officially for kids only since you are not supposed to discuss any of those selected adult topics contained in anime/manga. I get your point, but if you look at the forum history of the guy you recommended moderating, he is not being toxic in any other threads that I can see. He is only being toxic when it comes down to politics. Is it reason enough to moderate him? I mean, you could warn him and there's a possibility he would stay out (Not guaranteed), but if there are no threads talking about these things, he is just going to interact normally and rarely come into conflict with other people. Alot of « leftist » are insecure about their own morality and « rightist » about their own freedom and need to reaffirm their stances consistently. Any threads that target their insecurities is going to make them feel personally triggered and become irrational in the process. This is even worse when there's a clash of morality vs freedom as both sides are fighting against each other irrationally. However, that doesn't mean those people are unable to behave outside of these specific threads. Again, I think it requires more context to remove a user from a platform, but this might not be the best example either way. |
automaweebFeb 26, 2021 1:51 PM
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| Locking these threads are fine. There's no point in discussing morals since it's basically just trying to show who has the biggest morality d*ck. What I don't get tho, and I'm still surprised that no one made a case yet, is the amount of thread which contains just a video, generally a youtuber, and these sort of things are somehow accepted. The only point of the thread is to watch a video, then discuss the video in the thread. But why would we discuss in the thread when there is already a comment section already associated to the video. And of course you cannot participate in a thread if you haven't watched the video, so that makes the thread to have a silly requirement for nothing. And finally, these videos are generally manipulating people's opinion. This is concerning and I know I'm not the only who get annoyed by that. If I get some positive feedback then I consider making a suggestion. |
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