Dororo Episode 23 Discussion

Jun 22, 2019 1:20 PM

Offline

Nov 2014

2752

Daniel_Naumov said:

ttcchen said:
this country can go to shit for all i care. everyone in it are total selfish assholes who lost their humanity a long time ago. Fighting a blind person when you got three eyes and you still think you're not doing anything wrong?? Robbing him of everything and then calling him a monster for trying to take it back!?? I'm so glad they died and I can't wait for Tahomaru to die a miserable death and for this country to rot in hell. I've never hated an anime character so much since that hypocrite Suzaku from Code Geass.

I wouldn't call Hyakkimaru a mass murderer. All he did in the beginning was kill demons. It's Daigo and Tahomaru and their soldiers who attacked him first. So he fought back, and what if he killed them in return? It's only in self-defense. And when they become demons themselves, would it really be a sin for Hyakkimaru to kill them? Would you really call a human with three eyes, two of them were given to him by the demon, robbed from another human, a human?? To me, Hyakkimaru has more humanity than Tahomaru would ever have. No matter what Hyakkimaru turns into in the end, be it a human or a demon, I'll still be on his side. There's nothing wrong with taking back what you owned that were robbed from you. If anything, it's those robbers who justified their actions by using their country as an excuse who are in the wrong.

You lack some profound understanding of this "humans and demons" narrative, but well can't catch them all this era.

Tahoomaru will be the only one surviving from him family, and his land will start prosper little by little thanks to Dororo's father treasures. Just a hint.

Hyakkimaru did not start as a villain, and he is still is not one. In fact, there is, like, zero villains here. ZERO. Which is why the series and many of Osamu's works are called "Grey morality". There is, however, an extermely transparent concept of "crime and punishment". You sin, you kinda perish, through different mechanisms and causality. At this point about everyone sinned. Except Tahoomaru maybe, as he is only trying to slay his brother. But that bit is open up to a lengthy debate.

So Hyakkimaru kept on trying to get his limbs back by slaying foul demons. Actual evil, which, as per trope, was brought in by the humans, but humans themselves were not evil. Okay, he is not doing a bad thing. But suddenly humans also start getting involved with the demons, and Hyakkimaru is forced to slay humans as well. Regardless of their moral spectrum, his crusade after his body was always going to end like this. Bad people get cut by him, others meet their demise in the process of chasing him.

At this point Hyakkimaru had been called out on being selfish and blinded by his "greed" several times now. By different characters, even the blind Monk who is as close to being a manifestation of virtue in this series as it can be. But he does not care anymore, he shouts and shakes off Dororo, his only "light in the dark" and new family. As was logically stated, Hyakkimaru has enough body parts to keep on living more or less content (considering a third of the population is either malnourished or invalid, he is kinda well-off), but he does not listen to no reason, he selfishly follows what he wants. Not what is right, though there is no right here, as I will allude in the closing remark. Either way he is causing way more friction and suffering than he would do if he stopped chasing his past. Lives are being ruined because he wants to take the body back. Lives of people who initially had nothing to do with the whole deal with the devil thing, but are now a part of the broader tragedy. Whatever virtue Hyakkimaru had in the beginning, is gone at this point. He became what he fought against - a troubled, angered man trying to further his justified goals during cruel, harsh times. The same as Daigo was in the episode 1, the same as Tahoomaru is now.

So everyone from his blighted family is going up or down the circles, except for Tahoomaru, because someone has to lead the people into a new, balanced age. Balanced, because as demons cemented the deal, the forces of good also entered the play (no one says Buddha). The protection Hyakkimaru received, the steed infused with divine vengeance (a subtle hint how it surprisingly withers in a fight against demon-possesed hands) - everything is there to help Hyakkimaru balance the scales. Which means nullify the contract. He is not supposed to survive the ordeal, as he is now merely an instrument of powers beyond him. But he may (and definitely will) take pride that, before he perished, he made something good and left the world to others in a slightly better state than it was. As the world is rid of devil deals, and about everyone who was directly or not responsible for it, the people will begin anew, this time enduring the hardships and working to their heart's extent to restore their country. Without relying on questionable deals. AND they will have a major boost up in a form of Dororo's gold. The series begins at zero, goes up to 99,(99), and then goes right back at zero, from which everything begins anew, as if the whole Dororo never happened.

So if you are saying you will still blindly, wholeheartedly support him, regardless what the series creators are telling you, you have a right to do so. You have chosen the poor right though so prepare some antidepressants and a notebook to write down the message of this series. So that the next time you will avoid succumbing to some sorta impulses, and will choose whom to support wisely.

Perhaps your intentions of a reply of wise words to me is good, but I do not appreciate it. I did not ask for a lecture; I understand what the author is trying to say, and I know what the moral approach Hyakkimaru should have taken is. But, my heart has swayed for him and his story. He is the one who is wronged first. He did nothing to deserve the torture he had endured all his life. And when he is trying to take back what is rightfully his, people call him a monster, a demon for doing so. And those hypocrites who took his body parts dared to call themselves the human and him the monster. You said he should have stopped and let them have his eyes and arms. But even if he did so, they would not stop their assault. His eyes and arms aren't enough to satisfy the demons and the only for Daigo's land to flourish again is if they rob Hyakkimaru of everything he had taken back. In other word, Hyakkimaru has to die for his people to not suffer again.

So what you said would not work. Hyakkimaru won't be able to live a content life because of his family who are after his life. It's because of this that I whole-heartedly support Hyakkimaru. He is the victim through out the story and no he's not playing victim he is the victim. Even when the victim fights back and kills his assaulter, he is still the victim in this story. And of course, there're other victims, like the innocent people who had to suffer, but this all happened because Daigo made the deal, not Hyakkimaru. They were already suffering in the beginning before Hyakkimaru was even born. He only served to temporarily relieve them of their suffering.

Also, I never called anyone in this story a villain, so I have no idea why you're trying to lecture me about there having no villains in this story. I know that goddammit. You think I haven't watched Code Geass?? In any case, next time don't assume. You don't know shit about me.

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Jun 22, 2019 1:33 PM

#202

Daniel_Naumov

Offline

Apr 2016

4788

ttcchen said:

Daniel_Naumov said:

You lack some profound understanding of this "humans and demons" narrative, but well can't catch them all this era.

Tahoomaru will be the only one surviving from him family, and his land will start prosper little by little thanks to Dororo's father treasures. Just a hint.

Hyakkimaru did not start as a villain, and he is still is not one. In fact, there is, like, zero villains here. ZERO. Which is why the series and many of Osamu's works are called "Grey morality". There is, however, an extermely transparent concept of "crime and punishment". You sin, you kinda perish, through different mechanisms and causality. At this point about everyone sinned. Except Tahoomaru maybe, as he is only trying to slay his brother. But that bit is open up to a lengthy debate.

So Hyakkimaru kept on trying to get his limbs back by slaying foul demons. Actual evil, which, as per trope, was brought in by the humans, but humans themselves were not evil. Okay, he is not doing a bad thing. But suddenly humans also start getting involved with the demons, and Hyakkimaru is forced to slay humans as well. Regardless of their moral spectrum, his crusade after his body was always going to end like this. Bad people get cut by him, others meet their demise in the process of chasing him.

At this point Hyakkimaru had been called out on being selfish and blinded by his "greed" several times now. By different characters, even the blind Monk who is as close to being a manifestation of virtue in this series as it can be. But he does not care anymore, he shouts and shakes off Dororo, his only "light in the dark" and new family. As was logically stated, Hyakkimaru has enough body parts to keep on living more or less content (considering a third of the population is either malnourished or invalid, he is kinda well-off), but he does not listen to no reason, he selfishly follows what he wants. Not what is right, though there is no right here, as I will allude in the closing remark. Either way he is causing way more friction and suffering than he would do if he stopped chasing his past. Lives are being ruined because he wants to take the body back. Lives of people who initially had nothing to do with the whole deal with the devil thing, but are now a part of the broader tragedy. Whatever virtue Hyakkimaru had in the beginning, is gone at this point. He became what he fought against - a troubled, angered man trying to further his justified goals during cruel, harsh times. The same as Daigo was in the episode 1, the same as Tahoomaru is now.

So everyone from his blighted family is going up or down the circles, except for Tahoomaru, because someone has to lead the people into a new, balanced age. Balanced, because as demons cemented the deal, the forces of good also entered the play (no one says Buddha). The protection Hyakkimaru received, the steed infused with divine vengeance (a subtle hint how it surprisingly withers in a fight against demon-possesed hands) - everything is there to help Hyakkimaru balance the scales. Which means nullify the contract. He is not supposed to survive the ordeal, as he is now merely an instrument of powers beyond him. But he may (and definitely will) take pride that, before he perished, he made something good and left the world to others in a slightly better state than it was. As the world is rid of devil deals, and about everyone who was directly or not responsible for it, the people will begin anew, this time enduring the hardships and working to their heart's extent to restore their country. Without relying on questionable deals. AND they will have a major boost up in a form of Dororo's gold. The series begins at zero, goes up to 99,(99), and then goes right back at zero, from which everything begins anew, as if the whole Dororo never happened.

So if you are saying you will still blindly, wholeheartedly support him, regardless what the series creators are telling you, you have a right to do so. You have chosen the poor right though so prepare some antidepressants and a notebook to write down the message of this series. So that the next time you will avoid succumbing to some sorta impulses, and will choose whom to support wisely.

Perhaps your intentions of a reply of wise words to me is good, but I do not appreciate it. I did not ask for a lecture; I understand what the author is trying to say, and I know what the moral approach Hyakkimaru should have taken is. But, my heart has swayed for him and his story. He is the one who is wronged first. He did nothing to deserve the torture he had endured all his life. And when he is trying to take back what is rightfully his, people call him a monster, a demon for doing so. And those hypocrites who took his body parts dared to call themselves the human and him the monster. You said he should have stopped and let them have his eyes and arms. But even if he did so, they would not stop their assault. His eyes and arms aren't enough to satisfy the demons and the only for Daigo's land to flourish again is if they rob Hyakkimaru of everything he had taken back. In other word, Hyakkimaru has to die for his people to not suffer again.

So what you said would not work. Hyakkimaru won't be able to live a content life because of his family who are after his life. It's because of this that I whole-heartedly support Hyakkimaru. He is the victim through out the story and no he's not playing victim he is the victim. Even when the victim fights back and kills his assaulter, he is still the victim in this story. And of course, there're other victims, like the innocent people who had to suffer, but this all happened because Daigo made the deal, not Hyakkimaru. They were already suffering in the beginning before Hyakkimaru was even born. He only served to temporarily relieve them of their suffering.

Also, I never called anyone in this story a villain, so I have no idea why you're trying to lecture me about there having no villains in this story. I know that goddammit. You think I haven't watched Code Geass?? In any case, next time don't assume. You don't know shit about me.

Hmmmmm... You seem to be under an impression you are able to make succesful assumptions. I have never seen Code Geass. Heard only the best about it, though.
Either way I am merely explaining what and why. I never said which approach Hyakkimaru should have taken, nor that you assume anyone is a villain here. Just... just read it again and let's call it a day.

Re:formed

Jun 22, 2019 2:15 PM

#203

EckhartPilgrim

Offline

Feb 2015

111

NV_ said:

6. I don't think someone who was ONLY interested in power and himself would offer to sacrifice himself for the prosperity of his land, but I think we agree that (at least nowadays) Daigo is an egotistical and nasty person.

Daigo never offered to sacrifice himself. The deal was made so that he could rule a prosperous land, for his "ambitions" and to attain "power and renown" for himself (that is his words). The "anything" in his "I will give you anything of mine" meant "anything except my own life and anything that won't hinder the land prosperity". His kid, his wife would do. He never considered to sacrifice himself, and he never thought of his people when making the deal (they are just necessary tools for him to make the land prosperous). It was all about himself from the very beginning.

Tahomaru is different though.

EckhartPilgrimJun 22, 2019 2:39 PM

Jun 22, 2019 4:15 PM

#204

6AMDiary

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Apr 2018

693

dang.. I wonder what the old blind man's going to do. :O

Jun 22, 2019 4:21 PM

#205

Daniel_Naumov

Offline

Apr 2016

4788

EckhartPilgrim said:

NV_ said:

6. I don't think someone who was ONLY interested in power and himself would offer to sacrifice himself for the prosperity of his land, but I think we agree that (at least nowadays) Daigo is an egotistical and nasty person.

"I will give you anything of mine" meant "anything except my own life and anything that won't hinder the land prosperity".

Such a leap of logic is inexcusable, as there is an abyss one could never even hope to traverse. Daigo is his own's man and owns his own life. If Daigo says "anything of mine", then it is CHECK THE WORD IN THE DICTIONARY BEFORE YOU START USING IT THE NEXT TIME anything that belongs to him. His life belongs to him, for the third time. Which means, when Daigo was offering a deal, he never excluded himself, his life or anything he might have. Wife, children included.
Then, there is nothing that would hinder the land's prosperity. Because it is literally what demons are supposed to give. Magical contracts are made this way they don't contradict themselves. Hopefully it explains things.

6AMDiary said:
dang.. I wonder what the old blind man's going to do. :O

Honourably move to the better world. NAB.

Re:formed

Jun 22, 2019 6:57 PM

#206

yasuda1986

Offline

May 2016

30

" Hyakkimaru has known what his quest is doing to people for a period of time where he wasn't being attacked, and saw the effects firsthand during the moth monster episodes. Obviously he wasn't doing wrong before he knew, he was killing evil monsters even, but now he does and he doesn't care: this makes him a bad person."

What happened in the moth episode wasn't even his fault and that village was killing kids for their own sake and all knew about it. He didn't know about the deal with the 12 demons until Tahomaru told him at Banmon and Tahomaru abandon any chance their was of them talking it out and went straight to "must kill it".

Jun 23, 2019 1:34 AM

#207

EckhartPilgrim

Offline

Feb 2015

111

Daniel_Naumov said:

Such a leap of logic is inexcusable, as there is an abyss one could never even hope to traverse. Daigo is his own's man and owns his own life. If Daigo says "anything of mine", then it is CHECK THE WORD IN THE DICTIONARY BEFORE YOU START USING IT THE NEXT TIME anything that belongs to him. His life belongs to him, for the third time. Which means, when Daigo was offering a deal, he never excluded himself, his life or anything he might have. Wife, children included.
Then, there is nothing that would hinder the land's prosperity. Because it is literally what demons are supposed to give. Magical contracts are made this way they don't contradict themselves. Hopefully it explains things.

Well, "logic" is becoming crazy here.

Let's recall what Daigo said in episode 1 :

Daigo said:

12 demons, I'm Daigo Kagemitsu. Lord of Ishikawa, and vassal to the governor of Kaga province. Repeated famine and epidemics have swept my land, enfeebling my people to the point of death. As things stand, I shall never attain the power and renown I crave. My ambitions will remain a mere dream. But I refuse to rely on th mercy of Buddha or the gods. What I am about to say to you is not a prayer. I came to make a deal. If you'll protect my land and let me rule the country, I will give you anything of mine. Anything, take whatever you wish. Do you hear me!

I think what he is saying is very clear. Depending how they are used, when put in sentences words change the meaning of each others. That is the case here. Daigo obviously can't include his own life in the expression "anything of mine" because it will contradict "let me rule the country". I don't know where you learned that "magical contracts are made this way they don't contradict themselves", there is no golden rule about it anywhere.

Hope this helps. Debate seems to be going nowhere in this topic anymore.

Jun 23, 2019 1:50 AM

#208

Daniel_Naumov

Offline

Apr 2016

4788

EckhartPilgrim said:

Daniel_Naumov said:

Such a leap of logic is inexcusable, as there is an abyss one could never even hope to traverse. Daigo is his own's man and owns his own life. If Daigo says "anything of mine", then it is CHECK THE WORD IN THE DICTIONARY BEFORE YOU START USING IT THE NEXT TIME anything that belongs to him. His life belongs to him, for the third time. Which means, when Daigo was offering a deal, he never excluded himself, his life or anything he might have. Wife, children included.
Then, there is nothing that would hinder the land's prosperity. Because it is literally what demons are supposed to give. Magical contracts are made this way they don't contradict themselves. Hopefully it explains things.

Well, "logic" is becoming crazy here.

Let's recall what Daigo said in episode 1 :

Daigo said:

12 demons, I'm Daigo Kagemitsu. Lord of Ishikawa, and vassal to the governor of Kaga province. Repeated famine and epidemics have swept my land, enfeebling my people to the point of death. As things stand, I shall never attain the power and renown I crave. My ambitions will remain a mere dream. But I refuse to rely on th mercy of Buddha or the gods. What I am about to say to you is not a prayer. I came to make a deal. If you'll protect my land and let me rule the country, I will give you anything of mine. Anything, take whatever you wish. Do you hear me!

I think what he is saying is very clear. Depending how they are used, when put in sentences words change the meaning of each others. That is the case here. Daigo obviously can't include his own life in the expression "anything of mine" because it will contradict "let me rule the country". I don't know where you learned that "magical contracts are made this way they don't contradict themselves", there is no golden rule about it anywhere.

Hope this helps. Debate seems to be going nowhere in this topic anymore.

There is no debate we are dealing with. Everyone seems that it is anyhow of essence to try to dispute the wording Daigo used when making contract with the demons. To somehow determine if he is a scum, or an utter scum. 'TIS DOES NOT MATTER A SMIDGE.

Re:formed

Jun 23, 2019 5:38 AM

#209

NV_

Offline

Sep 2014

13

EckhartPilgrim said:

Well, "logic" is becoming crazy here.

Let's recall what Daigo said in episode 1 :

Daigo said:

12 demons, I'm Daigo Kagemitsu. Lord of Ishikawa, and vassal to the governor of Kaga province. Repeated famine and epidemics have swept my land, enfeebling my people to the point of death. As things stand, I shall never attain the power and renown I crave. My ambitions will remain a mere dream. But I refuse to rely on th mercy of Buddha or the gods. What I am about to say to you is not a prayer. I came to make a deal. If you'll protect my land and let me rule the country, I will give you anything of mine. Anything, take whatever you wish. Do you hear me!

I think what he is saying is very clear. Depending how they are used, when put in sentences words change the meaning of each others. That is the case here. Daigo obviously can't include his own life in the expression "anything of mine" because it will contradict "let me rule the country". I don't know where you learned that "magical contracts are made this way they don't contradict themselves", there is no golden rule about it anywhere.

You're right. It's possible he was offering his soul for after he has ruled a successful land, which fits with his talk to the priest beforehand about going to hell.
However since he held his arms open as if he was inviting them to take directly from him, and he seemed to be shaking with fear, I expect the indication was that this isn't what he was thinking. Probably expected them to take something from his body right there.
As you said, "Daigo obviously can't include his own life in the expression 'anything of mine' because it will contradict 'let me rule the country'." Therefore he can't have been offering to sacrifice his entire self.

yasuda1986 said:

What happened in the moth episode wasn't even his fault and that village was killing kids for their own sake and all knew about it. He didn't know about the deal with the 12 demons until Tahomaru told him at Banmon and Tahomaru abandon any chance their was of them talking it out and went straight to "must kill it".

And you're horribly wrong. The parallels between the situation at that village and Daigo's land is obvious. The villagers were in on the sacrifice here, and more than one child's quality of life was sacrificed, but there were also children who had nothing to do with the pact and the lord of the land actually just wanted to protect his people (for real this time).
By Hyakkimaru and Dororo's intrusion on this town, it was destroyed and the innocent children who lived there also died. Since they were continuing to sacrifice travellers, it's possible that this would save more people in the long run, but Hyakkimaru still walked past the innocent people he killed and learnt nothing from it. By that point he should have been acutely aware of the effects his actions can have.

Banmon was before that, by the time the moth incident had happened, Hyakkimaru could have abandoned his quest. And again, there was nothing to 'talk about', if the quest is continued then he's an enemy of Daigo's land. Everybody understand this in show.

👌( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)👌

Jun 23, 2019 6:01 AM

#210

Daniel_Naumov

Offline

Apr 2016

4788

NV_ said:

EckhartPilgrim said:

Well, "logic" is becoming crazy here.

Let's recall what Daigo said in episode 1 :

I think what he is saying is very clear. Depending how they are used, when put in sentences words change the meaning of each others. That is the case here. Daigo obviously can't include his own life in the expression "anything of mine" because it will contradict "let me rule the country". I don't know where you learned that "magical contracts are made this way they don't contradict themselves", there is no golden rule about it anywhere.

You're right. It's possible he was offering his soul for after he has ruled a successful land, which fits with his talk to the priest beforehand about going to hell.
However since he held his arms open as if he was inviting them to take directly from him, and he seemed to be shaking with fear, I expect the indication was that this isn't what he was thinking. Probably expected them to take something from his body right there.
As you said, "Daigo obviously can't include his own life in the expression 'anything of mine' because it will contradict 'let me rule the country'." Therefore he can't have been offering to sacrifice his entire self.

yasuda1986 said:

What happened in the moth episode wasn't even his fault and that village was killing kids for their own sake and all knew about it. He didn't know about the deal with the 12 demons until Tahomaru told him at Banmon and Tahomaru abandon any chance their was of them talking it out and went straight to "must kill it".

And you're horribly wrong. The parallels between the situation at that village and Daigo's land is obvious. The villagers were in on the sacrifice here, and more than one child's quality of life was sacrificed, but there were also children who had nothing to do with the pact and the lord of the land actually just wanted to protect his people (for real this time).
By Hyakkimaru and Dororo's intrusion on this town, it was destroyed and the innocent children who lived there also died. Since they were continuing to sacrifice travellers, it's possible that this would save more people in the long run, but Hyakkimaru still walked past the innocent people he killed and learnt nothing from it. By that point he should have been acutely aware of the effects his actions can have.

Banmon was before that, by the time the moth incident had happened, Hyakkimaru could have abandoned his quest. And again, there was nothing to 'talk about', if the quest is continued then he's an enemy of Daigo's land. Everybody understand this in show.

Now that's another big stretch, as I don't remember direct or otherwise mention of innocent children perishing because of Hyakkimaru... but yes, in his crusade he caused quite some misfortunes, if only to balance the scales upset by humans before.
There are Nazi apologists, and now there are Hyakkimaru apologists.

Re:formed

Jun 23, 2019 7:37 AM

#211

yasuda1986

Offline

May 2016

30

"And you're horribly wrong. The parallels between the situation at that village and Daigo's land is obvious. The villagers were in on the sacrifice here, and more than one child's quality of life was sacrificed, but there were also children who had nothing to do with the pact and the lord of the land actually just wanted to protect his people (for real this time).
By Hyakkimaru and Dororo's intrusion on this town, it was destroyed and the innocent children who lived there also died. Since they were continuing to sacrifice travellers, it's possible that this would save more people in the long run, but Hyakkimaru still walked past the innocent people he killed and learnt nothing from it. By that point he should have been acutely aware of the effects his actions can have.

The children weren't just losing quality of life they were being killed so the adults could live. And it was the moth who set the village on fire. Hyakkimaru killed no one in that village.

The parallels between the situation at that village and Daigo's land are intentional, but execution matters more than intentions. Hyakkimaru is a one time sacrifice assuming the 12 demons never ask for more. The village in the moth episodes were knownly killing children to save their own behinds.

"it's possible that this would save more people in the long run, but Hyakkimaru still walked past the innocent people he killed and learnt nothing from it. By that point he should have been acutely aware of the effects his actions can have.
"
In no way was Hyakkimaru responsible for that. The blame lies in the demon and the villagers.

"Banmon was before that, by the time the moth incident had happened, Hyakkimaru could have abandoned his quest. And again, there was nothing to 'talk about', if the quest is continued then he's an enemy of Daigo's land. Everybody understand this in show."

You tend not to empathize with people who try to kill you, if Tahomaru had tried to reach out to Hyakkimaru at banmon, there was a chance that Hyakkimaru wouldn have considered abandoning his quest.

"Now that's another big stretch, as I don't remember direct or otherwise mention of innocent children perishing because of Hyakkimaru... but yes, in his crusade he caused quite some misfortunes, if only to balance the scales upset by humans before.
There are Nazi apologists, and now there are Hyakkimaru apologists. "

It is strange to compare Hyakkimaru to nazis of all things.

Jun 23, 2019 10:27 AM

#212

NV_

Offline

Sep 2014

13

yasuda1986 said:
"And you're horribly wrong. The parallels between the situation at that village and Daigo's land is obvious. The villagers were in on the sacrifice here, and more than one child's quality of life was sacrificed, but there were also children who had nothing to do with the pact and the lord of the land actually just wanted to protect his people (for real this time).
By Hyakkimaru and Dororo's intrusion on this town, it was destroyed and the innocent children who lived there also died. Since they were continuing to sacrifice travellers, it's possible that this would save more people in the long run, but Hyakkimaru still walked past the innocent people he killed and learnt nothing from it. By that point he should have been acutely aware of the effects his actions can have.

The children weren't just losing quality of life they were being killed so the adults could live. And it was the moth who set the village on fire. Hyakkimaru killed no one in that village.

The parallels between the situation at that village and Daigo's land are intentional, but execution matters more than intentions. Hyakkimaru is a one time sacrifice assuming the 12 demons never ask for more. The village in the moth episodes were knownly killing children to save their own behinds.

"it's possible that this would save more people in the long run, but Hyakkimaru still walked past the innocent people he killed and learnt nothing from it. By that point he should have been acutely aware of the effects his actions can have.
"
In no way was Hyakkimaru responsible for that. The blame lies in the demon and the villagers.

"Banmon was before that, by the time the moth incident had happened, Hyakkimaru could have abandoned his quest. And again, there was nothing to 'talk about', if the quest is continued then he's an enemy of Daigo's land. Everybody understand this in show."

You tend not to empathize with people who try to kill you, if Tahomaru had tried to reach out to Hyakkimaru at banmon, there was a chance that Hyakkimaru wouldn have considered abandoning his quest.

"Now that's another big stretch, as I don't remember direct or otherwise mention of innocent children perishing because of Hyakkimaru... but yes, in his crusade he caused quite some misfortunes, if only to balance the scales upset by humans before.
There are Nazi apologists, and now there are Hyakkimaru apologists. "

It is strange to compare Hyakkimaru to nazis of all things.

My quality of life comment was in regards to the quality of life that Hyakkimaru lost from his sacrifice. I'm aware the children at this village were killed.

I don't understand what you're getting at with the fire thing. Are you the kind of person to say "people don't kill people, guns do"? It was very obviously because of Hyakkimaru's actions that the village burnt down, as Dororo says in episode, "did we do the wrong thing?" My only point with bringing these episodes up, anyway, was to prove that Hyakkimaru was already aware his actions were killing people before he saw the Daigo trio with his last missing parts.

Almost nobody in Daigo's land knows about the pact, even among the ones being ordered to kill Hyakkimaru. So I don't understand what you're getting at with "empathy". I'm not arguing that only Tahoumaru and Daigos lives are worth more than Hyakkimaru's, but that the entire cumulative population's are. And generalising an entire population and hurting them is generally not considered a trait of a good person, so if your argument is that because some of them tried to kill him he's justified in killing them all, then...

I don't know about comparing him to nazis, but I do think that many people's sympathy for Hyakkimaru is based on a very very misled "it's fine to hurt people if they've hurt you."

👌( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)👌

Jun 23, 2019 10:56 AM

#213

ttcchen

Offline

Nov 2014

2752

Daniel_Naumov said:

ttcchen said:

Daniel_Naumov said:

ttcchen said:
this country can go to shit for all i care. everyone in it are total selfish assholes who lost their humanity a long time ago. Fighting a blind person when you got three eyes and you still think you're not doing anything wrong?? Robbing him of everything and then calling him a monster for trying to take it back!?? I'm so glad they died and I can't wait for Tahomaru to die a miserable death and for this country to rot in hell. I've never hated an anime character so much since that hypocrite Suzaku from Code Geass.

Daniel_Naumov said:
And you understood absolutely nothing from this series. You accuse samurais, humans, of being evil and agree to their merciless erradication. You are a samurai yourself, if you believe in what you say. Saddening, but you are a great example of why Dororo is a needed series even today - when picking sides means you automatically consider the other side as an utter evil that must be eliminated no matter the cost and moral implications.

I wouldn't call Hyakkimaru a mass murderer. All he did in the beginning was kill demons. It's Daigo and Tahomaru and their soldiers who attacked him first. So he fought back, and what if he killed them in return? It's only in self-defense. And when they become demons themselves, would it really be a sin for Hyakkimaru to kill them? Would you really call a human with three eyes, two of them were given to him by the demon, robbed from another human, a human?? To me, Hyakkimaru has more humanity than Tahomaru would ever have. No matter what Hyakkimaru turns into in the end, be it a human or a demon, I'll still be on his side. There's nothing wrong with taking back what you owned that were robbed from you. If anything, it's those robbers who justified their actions by using their country as an excuse who are in the wrong.

You lack some profound understanding of this "humans and demons" narrative, but well can't catch them all this era.

Tahoomaru will be the only one surviving from him family, and his land will start prosper little by little thanks to Dororo's father treasures. Just a hint.

Hyakkimaru did not start as a villain, and he is still is not one. In fact, there is, like, zero villains here. ZERO. Which is why the series and many of Osamu's works are called "Grey morality". There is, however, an extermely transparent concept of "crime and punishment". You sin, you kinda perish, through different mechanisms and causality. At this point about everyone sinned. Except Tahoomaru maybe, as he is only trying to slay his brother. But that bit is open up to a lengthy debate.

So Hyakkimaru kept on trying to get his limbs back by slaying foul demons. Actual evil, which, as per trope, was brought in by the humans, but humans themselves were not evil. Okay, he is not doing a bad thing. But suddenly humans also start getting involved with the demons, and Hyakkimaru is forced to slay humans as well. Regardless of their moral spectrum, his crusade after his body was always going to end like this. Bad people get cut by him, others meet their demise in the process of chasing him.

At this point Hyakkimaru had been called out on being selfish and blinded by his "greed" several times now. By different characters, even the blind Monk who is as close to being a manifestation of virtue in this series as it can be. But he does not care anymore, he shouts and shakes off Dororo, his only "light in the dark" and new family. As was logically stated, Hyakkimaru has enough body parts to keep on living more or less content (considering a third of the population is either malnourished or invalid, he is kinda well-off), but he does not listen to no reason, he selfishly follows what he wants. Not what is right, though there is no right here, as I will allude in the closing remark. Either way he is causing way more friction and suffering than he would do if he stopped chasing his past. Lives are being ruined because he wants to take the body back. Lives of people who initially had nothing to do with the whole deal with the devil thing, but are now a part of the broader tragedy. Whatever virtue Hyakkimaru had in the beginning, is gone at this point. He became what he fought against - a troubled, angered man trying to further his justified goals during cruel, harsh times. The same as Daigo was in the episode 1, the same as Tahoomaru is now.

So everyone from his blighted family is going up or down the circles, except for Tahoomaru, because someone has to lead the people into a new, balanced age. Balanced, because as demons cemented the deal, the forces of good also entered the play (no one says Buddha). The protection Hyakkimaru received, the steed infused with divine vengeance (a subtle hint how it surprisingly withers in a fight against demon-possesed hands) - everything is there to help Hyakkimaru balance the scales. Which means nullify the contract. He is not supposed to survive the ordeal, as he is now merely an instrument of powers beyond him. But he may (and definitely will) take pride that, before he perished, he made something good and left the world to others in a slightly better state than it was. As the world is rid of devil deals, and about everyone who was directly or not responsible for it, the people will begin anew, this time enduring the hardships and working to their heart's extent to restore their country. Without relying on questionable deals. AND they will have a major boost up in a form of Dororo's gold. The series begins at zero, goes up to 99,(99), and then goes right back at zero, from which everything begins anew, as if the whole Dororo never happened.

So if you are saying you will still blindly, wholeheartedly support him, regardless what the series creators are telling you, you have a right to do so. You have chosen the poor right though so prepare some antidepressants and a notebook to write down the message of this series. So that the next time you will avoid succumbing to some sorta impulses, and will choose whom to support wisely.

Perhaps your intentions of a reply of wise words to me is good, but I do not appreciate it. I did not ask for a lecture; I understand what the author is trying to say, and I know what the moral approach Hyakkimaru should have taken is. But, my heart has swayed for him and his story. He is the one who is wronged first. He did nothing to deserve the torture he had endured all his life. And when he is trying to take back what is rightfully his, people call him a monster, a demon for doing so. And those hypocrites who took his body parts dared to call themselves the human and him the monster. You said he should have stopped and let them have his eyes and arms. But even if he did so, they would not stop their assault. His eyes and arms aren't enough to satisfy the demons and the only for Daigo's land to flourish again is if they rob Hyakkimaru of everything he had taken back. In other word, Hyakkimaru has to die for his people to not suffer again.

So what you said would not work. Hyakkimaru won't be able to live a content life because of his family who are after his life. It's because of this that I whole-heartedly support Hyakkimaru. He is the victim through out the story and no he's not playing victim he is the victim. Even when the victim fights back and kills his assaulter, he is still the victim in this story. And of course, there're other victims, like the innocent people who had to suffer, but this all happened because Daigo made the deal, not Hyakkimaru. They were already suffering in the beginning before Hyakkimaru was even born. He only served to temporarily relieve them of their suffering.

Also, I never called anyone in this story a villain, so I have no idea why you're trying to lecture me about there having no villains in this story. I know that goddammit. You think I haven't watched Code Geass?? In any case, next time don't assume. You don't know shit about me.

Hmmmmm... You seem to be under an impression you are able to make succesful assumptions. I have never seen Code Geass. Heard only the best about it, though.
Either way I am merely explaining what and why. I never said which approach Hyakkimaru should have taken, nor that you assume anyone is a villain here. Just... just read it again and let's call it a day.

you gave me a whole lecture on how there is no villain in this anime when I never once mentioned anything about villains. maybe you should be the one to reread your initial reply to me. also, whether my assumptions are successful or not are not to be determined by you. who are you to say what's wrong and what's right? leave that to me to decide and stay out of my business.

also, Code Geass is an amazing show. It's a classic masterpiece that'll make you feel like all other animes are shit after you've finished it.

NV_ said:
I don't know about comparing him to nazis, but I do think that many people's sympathy for Hyakkimaru is based on a very very misled "it's fine to hurt people if they've hurt you."

dunno about the others, but I sympathize with Hyakkimaru because he's not just hurting people who hurt him. He's taking back what's rightfully his, and no one has the right to take away his body parts and deny him the basic human right of the ownership of one's own body parts.

As for that quote, it all depends on the situation. If someone raped you, it's not okay to rape them back. But if someone punched you, then feel free to punch them back.

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Jun 23, 2019 11:25 AM

#214