| It always comes off as so over the top and unrealistic. Like for example it's always either the bully character in a school setting black mailing the MC, killing the kitten or puppy they visit every day on school grounds, or straight up trying to kill the MC. Or when they need to portray gang members( which always end up being fodder) they are always creeping on the female character and if they end up kidnapping a female character they always say the same tired line "We're gonna have some fun with you". Or they say that after she rejects them in an alley way(of course right). Then if they want to show an abusive husband it's always in the same way every time. He's gonna be a drinker, He's gonna be drunk, he's gonna be unemployed and he's certainly always going to be beating his wife cause she isn't bringing enough money in. It's like the writers can't do anything else but make criminals creepy, rapey and psychotic. Or make bullies sociopaths and psychopaths. I can't be the only one that see's this same tired troupe over and over again in Anime that are in a real world setting. |
| or even worse, the generic thug characters which I swear are in like every anime. |
| Maybe because Japan has a very low crime rate. How does the saying go? "Write what you know." |
 |
| Because it is easier to copy stuff that others have already done. Additionally, their focus is less on these people as characters and more on what they represent as a whole and to identify them as good and not good. It does get tiring to see this stuff happen and hearing the reused lines but I do not know if some of these writers have seen a real bully or know the mindset of a bully. |
"Perfection is perception. For me, humanity's imperfections is what makes it perfect"  |
| Totally agree. Speaking as a criminal asshole myself, I find such gross oversimplifications disrespectful and humiliating. There ought to be a law against this kind of thing. |
 |
yaruka said: or even worse, the generic thug characters which I swear are in like every anime. Those are the ones I'm referring to mainly. They always act the same regardless of genre. Literal copy pasta. epidemia78 said: Maybe because Japan has a very low crime rate. How does the saying go? "Write what you know." If they have a low crime rate how is that writing what they know? Rarely ever is anything down to earth in their writing when it comes to that stuff. Their view point is always all or nothing as in. Every criminal or bully is an evil scum bag or nothing at all. FireRifle64 said: Because it is easier to copy stuff that others have already done. Additionally, their focus is less on these people as characters and more on what they represent as a whole and to identify them as good and not good. It does get tiring to see this stuff happen and hearing the reused lines but I do not know if some of these writers have seen a real bully or know the mindset of a bully. I don't expect in depth characterization to portray that someone is a thug. But for god sakes there are other ways to do it than the same tired creepy scum bag scenario. Especially when it comes to Japan where gangs are organized crime mainly in which they rarely ever bother civilians and if they do without any probable cause they are punished. The only anime that portrayed actual gang members properly and that life style is Black Lagoon. |
| I mean, Japan has a pretty low crime rate compared to the rest of the world. It's not as if they can look at the news and see a bunch of examples to go off of. Honestly though, imo this argument can be applied to nearly every trope lol. All protagonists are the same, all side characters, all love interests, etc. But anime or any type of media isn't necessarily about "originality", it's about "execution". You can have so many characters having the same "asshole/criminal" archetype, but there will be some that will be better than others, and others that are complete shit. It's not about what the idea is, it's about what you do with it that makes something good. |
| "The world is not beautiful, therefore it is." -Kino's Journey |
| Because it's not worth putting much thought into one off character. |
 |
Kaiser-chan said: Because it's not worth putting much thought into one off character. I'm not asking writers to go in depth with a character that isn't worth anything. I just want them to write a character or scenario that is at least grounded in reality and believable. If the writers can't even manage to do that they suck. Raverz said: I mean, Japan has a pretty low crime rate compared to the rest of the world. It's not as if they can look at the news and see a bunch of examples to go off of. Honestly though, imo this argument can be applied to nearly every trope lol. All protagonists are the same, all side characters, all love interests, etc. But anime or any type of media isn't necessarily about "originality", it's about "execution". You can have so many characters having the same "asshole/criminal" archetype, but there will be some that will be better than others, and others that are complete shit. It's not about what the idea is, it's about what you do with it that makes something good. I realize that but the issue is these kind of thug archetypes are constantly executed the EXACT same way every time. At least other troupes try to make some kind of an effort to execute things some what differently. It's to the point now where whenever I see a female in a scenario like this I ALWAYS expect this kind of scenario to happen and the odd time it doesn't play out that way I'm pleasantly surprised. |
Zeroflamez said: Kaiser-chan said: Because it's not worth putting much thought into one off character. I'm not asking writers to go in depth with a character that isn't worth anything. I just want them to write a character or scenario that is at least grounded in reality and believable. If the writers can't even manage to do that they suck. Raverz said: I mean, Japan has a pretty low crime rate compared to the rest of the world. It's not as if they can look at the news and see a bunch of examples to go off of. Honestly though, imo this argument can be applied to nearly every trope lol. All protagonists are the same, all side characters, all love interests, etc. But anime or any type of media isn't necessarily about "originality", it's about "execution". You can have so many characters having the same "asshole/criminal" archetype, but there will be some that will be better than others, and others that are complete shit. It's not about what the idea is, it's about what you do with it that makes something good. I realize that but the issue is these kind of thug archetypes are constantly executed the EXACT same way every time. At least other troupes try to make some kind of an effort to execute things some what differently. It's to the point now where whenever I see a female in a scenario like this I ALWAYS expect this kind of scenario to happen and the odd time it doesn't play out that way I'm pleasantly surprised. Well I suppose that just means you aren't into those types of archetypes then. You personally may see them as being executed the exact same way, but someone else may see them differently. That's the whole point of taste lol. If anything, it's up to you whether you want to power through those types of characters, not let them spoil your enjoyment of the show, or you do let them and drop it because of them. That whole thing is up to you. |
| "The world is not beautiful, therefore it is." -Kino's Journey |
| Well i think Japanese society is partly to blame for that, having such a low crime rate yet having such a high conviction rate, when most people, especially writers, who have most likely never encountered a real criminal in their lives, their view of them tends to become very cartoonish and simplistic, almost like they escaped from Arkham Asylum and are on the run from Batman or something. But then again if there only supposed to be background characters (which they usually are) then i don't see why it'd be a problem, but if a main or supporting criminal character was portrayed like that then i can see why'd it'd be seen as insulting and stereotypical. |
 |
| If you think those are unrealistic you sound incredibly naive. |
 |
| These characters usually don't stick around for very long, so it's a useful shorthand for telling the audience "this dude bad," without needing to go into further detail, but I do agree, it can get a bit stale considering how common they are. The only exceptions I can think of are anime that are based specifically around criminal characters. Stuff like Black Lagoon or Michiko & Hatchin where almost every character is a mobster or a general criminal of some kind, they tend to have much more fleshed out criminal characters. |
ChilliePeppersJun 12, 2020 12:47 AM
| Have you actually met an actual criminal or an actual abuser??? Those things are a trope for a reason cause they're very common behaviors of those kind of people. |
 |
ReaperCreeper said: If you think those are unrealistic you sound incredibly naive. So you're telling me every 9 out of 10 high school students around the world are black mailing other students, killing their pets and have attempted to kill some of them while getting away with it? Or Every thug that comes across a woman wants to rape them on the spot for absolutely no reason? give me a fucking break dude.. Most high school students are not psychopaths. Most thugs aren't running around trying to rape random women on the street because of "reasons". Most are just people trying to get by. Are these scenarios possible? certainly, however the way many works paint these kinds of characters in such an extreme way is just unrealistic. Dull_Lull said: Have you actually met an actual criminal or an actual abuser??? Those things are a trope for a reason cause they're very common behaviors of those kind of people. No it isn't actually very common behavior. You're painting a very broad stroke among a large group of people. Most criminals are just people trying to get by and have people to look after. If you actually knew anything you'd know that a majority of criminals actually do not advocate rape or violence against women. People that fall into that category are normally not treated kindly among other criminals for this behavior in prison and are often beaten or killed for it. Do criminals commit these crimes? yes but to say ALL criminals are evil scum bags like they are often portrayed in anime and manga is just fucking ridiculous. The world isn't that black and white and most people are not evil. |
Zeroflamez said: ReaperCreeper said: If you think those are unrealistic you sound incredibly naive. So you're telling me every 9 out of 10 high school students around the world are black mailing other students, killing their pets and have attempted to kill some of them while getting away with it? Or Every thug that comes across a woman wants to rape them on the spot for absolutely no reason? give me a fucking break dude.. Most high school students are not psychopaths. Most thugs aren't running around trying to rape random women on the street because of "reasons". Most are just people trying to get by. Are these scenarios possible? certainly, however the way many works paint these kinds of characters in such an extreme way is just unrealistic. Dull_Lull said: Have you actually met an actual criminal or an actual abuser??? Those things are a trope for a reason cause they're very common behaviors of those kind of people. No it isn't actually very common behavior. You're painting a very broad stroke among a large group of people. Most criminals are just people trying to get by and have people to look after. If you actually knew anything you'd know that a majority of criminals actually do not advocate rape or violence against women. People that fall into that category are normally not treated kindly among other criminals for this behavior in prison and are often beaten or killed for it. Do criminals commit these crimes? yes but to say ALL criminals are evil scum bags like they are often portrayed in anime and manga is just fucking ridiculous. The world isn't that black and white and most people are not evil. Those people you're talking about are like minor offenders shoplifting or getting caught in possession with drugs or robbing a convenience store or something. A lot of convicted murderers are just assholes in general with issues. Domestic violence is a lot more common than you think. I didn't say every single criminal is like that. I said it's a trope for a reason because those are the behaviors a lot of serious crimes are recorded from. |
|
Zeroflamez said: I absolutely agree. I see it as "just" a flaw if you can say it like that. A flaw a lot of animes have but not all. They're probably lazy.It always comes off as so over the top and unrealistic. Like for example it's always either the bully character in a school setting black mailing the MC, killing the kitten or puppy they visit every day on school grounds, or straight up trying to kill the MC. Or when they need to portray gang members( which always end up being fodder) they are always creeping on the female character and if they end up kidnapping a female character they always say the same tired line "We're gonna have some fun with you". Or they say that after she rejects them in an alley way(of course right). Then if they want to show an abusive husband it's always in the same way every time. He's gonna be a drinker, He's gonna be drunk, he's gonna be unemployed and he's certainly always going to be beating his wife cause she isn't bringing enough money in. It's like the writers can't do anything else but make criminals creepy, rapey and psychotic. Or make bullies sociopaths and psychopaths. I can't be the only one that see's this same tired troupe over and over again in Anime that are in a real world setting. |
| Lack of creativity is always evident and it's not just anime. |
 |
| Take for instance bullies. From the point of view of the person who is bullied, do you think they can notice at first sight that the one that abuses them is a nuanced person? But when bullying is given a more complex focus of course nuances appear. Check A silent voice or 3-gatsu no lion. Alcohol abuse is a primary factor in domestic violence. It's not a simplified trope as much as it is a direct reference to reality. On making criminals in general creepy and psychopathic, of course they are from the point of view of the victim. And even if the show takes a more neutral viewpoint, it's still pretty common of animation to use visual characterization to fully define a character. After all they don't have to be nuanced, they have to represent and transmit. |
| I don't get it. The OP likes his thugs cool, sexy and charismatic? Being beaten by such would be a matter of prestige. My school bullies were ugly and simple-minded folks with complexes (you know, the classic type). Their treatment was not only humiliating but also boring and not at all life enriching. I didn't learn anything interesting from them except the obvious: how to deal with such situation - trying to avoid them or at least the make the bulling boring even for them. |
alshuJun 12, 2020 3:35 AM
Zeroflamez said: Ah yes, because that's exactly what I meant. You're just being disingenuous on multiple accounts here.ReaperCreeper said: If you think those are unrealistic you sound incredibly naive. So you're telling me every 9 out of 10 high school students around the world are black mailing other students, killing their pets and have attempted to kill some of them while getting away with it? Or Every thug that comes across a woman wants to rape them on the spot for absolutely no reason? give me a fucking break dude.. Most high school students are not psychopaths. Most thugs aren't running around trying to rape random women on the street because of "reasons". Most are just people trying to get by. Are these scenarios possible? certainly, however the way many works paint these kinds of characters in such an extreme way is just unrealistic. |
|
Dull_Lull said: Zeroflamez said: So you're telling me every 9 out of 10 high school students around the world are black mailing other students, killing their pets and have attempted to kill some of them while getting away with it? Or Every thug that comes across a woman wants to rape them on the spot for absolutely no reason? give me a fucking break dude.. Most high school students are not psychopaths. Most thugs aren't running around trying to rape random women on the street because of "reasons". Most are just people trying to get by. Are these scenarios possible? certainly, however the way many works paint these kinds of characters in such an extreme way is just unrealistic. No it isn't actually very common behavior. You're painting a very broad stroke among a large group of people. Most criminals are just people trying to get by and have people to look after. If you actually knew anything you'd know that a majority of criminals actually do not advocate rape or violence against women. People that fall into that category are normally not treated kindly among other criminals for this behavior in prison and are often beaten or killed for it. Do criminals commit these crimes? yes but to say ALL criminals are evil scum bags like they are often portrayed in anime and manga is just fucking ridiculous. The world isn't that black and white and most people are not evil. Those people you're talking about are like minor offenders shoplifting or getting caught in possession with drugs or robbing a convenience store or something. A lot of convicted murderers are just assholes in general with issues. Domestic violence is a lot more common than you think. I didn't say every single criminal is like that. I said it's a trope for a reason because those are the behaviors a lot of serious crimes are recorded from. I never said domestic violence wasn't common. I don't know where you got that from. However the portrayal of it in Anime is always executed the same way that's my issue. a dude beating his wife isn't always intoxicated. Sometimes the wife may verbally provoke the man into hitting her in the middle of a dispute. Sometimes the woman may even attack the man while both parties are angry and she'll end up getting beat. Domestic dispute issues are not so simple most times and can be represented in different ways than the classic drunk abusive husband thing.Yes a lot of murderers are not good people. Even if this trope is based off of real life behaviors of people, the representation of it is jut not realistic most of the time because these characters are always portrayed as socio or psychopaths. For example the bullies or criminals are in a group and are doing the evil deed they are designed to do. How is there not at LEAST ONE character in the group that does not want to be apart of what's going on or even tries to attempt to stop it or call it off. How do not one of these characters have a moral compass or a conscience? ReaperCreeper said: Zeroflamez said: Ah yes, because that's exactly what I meant. You're just being disingenuous on multiple accounts here.So you're telling me every 9 out of 10 high school students around the world are black mailing other students, killing their pets and have attempted to kill some of them while getting away with it? Or Every thug that comes across a woman wants to rape them on the spot for absolutely no reason? give me a fucking break dude.. Most high school students are not psychopaths. Most thugs aren't running around trying to rape random women on the street because of "reasons". Most are just people trying to get by. Are these scenarios possible? certainly, however the way many works paint these kinds of characters in such an extreme way is just unrealistic. If I'm being disingenuous you're just as so for saying I sound incredibly naive for believing the portrayal of these scenarios and characters are often exaggerated and don't feel very real. _Maneki-Neko_ said: I think you need to watch more, since that's definitely not true. I've watched 500 shows I think I've seen enough Anime to make an accurate observation. 1Kyo said: Domestic violence is a pretty common theme that not only anime likes to employ. Plus, it's said that about a third of all households experience it. It is a common issue in our society that many can relate to. And of course, it's often alcohol and drugs that cause it, and some way for the man to cherrypick his wife's flaws. I legit don't remember any antagonistic high school student blackmailing the MC in any anime, so dunno where you have that cliche from. operationvalkyri said: In fact, one of my complaints of BNHA is that they flesh-out too many villain characters. Ironically, my complaint is that they don't, usually. Hence I enjoyed that one Twice scene so much, but most villains in MHA are kept overly cliche and simplistic. Okay, so I guess you haven't seen the cliche's so it doesn't exist. Alright buddy. alshu said: I don't get it. The OP likes his thugs cool, sexy and charismatic? Being beaten by such would be a matter of prestige. My school bullies were ugly and simple-minded folks with complexes (you know, the classic type). Their treatment was not only humiliating but also boring and not at all life enriching. I didn't learn anything interesting from them except the obvious: how to deal with such situation - trying to avoid them or at least the make the bulling boring even for them. No I just want these kinds of characters to have more humanity to them and not be portrayed as just psychopaths or sociopaths. Bullies are just normal people. Bullies only bully people for either Validation from others (bullying a student that is already not liked), Bullying to vent frustrations they have with their own life, or the biggest and most common reason which is they're bored. Hajime no Ippo does a good job at portraying bully characters, Specifically how years later Ippo becomes friends with his bully and even then, the bully doesn't feel like he deserves Ippo's kindness and friendship. By the way I've also been bullied in school, even then though I still looked at these people as human beings not psycho's. |
Zeroflamez said: No I just want these kinds of characters to have more humanity to them and not be portrayed as just psychopaths or sociopaths. They totally are. Zeroflamez said: Bullies are just normal people. Yes, normal people are evil but some of those don't make you life miserable and others do. Zeroflamez said: Bullies only bully people for either Validation from others (bullying a student that is already not liked) Yes, the resulting trauma is only a trauma. Zeroflamez said: Bullying to vent frustrations they have with their own life, or the biggest and most common reason which is they're bored. I am pretty sure this is not a good excuse. Zeroflamez said: Hajime no Ippo does a good job at portraying bully characters, Specifically how years later Ippo becomes friends with his bully and even then, the bully doesn't feel like he deserves Ippo's kindness and friendship. Never intended watching this, now it's on my perma ban. Zeroflamez said: By the way I've also been bullied in school, even then though I still looked at these people as human beings not psycho's. - Than you are a classical case of Stockholm syndrome. (Or an ex bully in disguise.) - All the psychos are human beings...juts not very pleasant ones and definitely don't want to heal. Like an important part for a bully on a redemption path is knowing that this is wrong (like not for the sake of victim but from purely social reasons) and they should stop...but naaah. Abusing power is too sweet of a deal. |
alshuJun 12, 2020 1:16 PM
alshu said: Zeroflamez said: No I just want these kinds of characters to have more humanity to them and not be portrayed as just psychopaths or sociopaths. They totally are. Zeroflamez said: Bullies are just normal people. Yes, normal people are evil but some of those don't make you life miserable and others do. Zeroflamez said: Bullies only bully people for either Validation from others (bullying a student that is already not liked) Yes, the resulting trauma is only a trauma. Zeroflamez said: Bullying to vent frustrations they have with their own life, or the biggest and most common reason which is they're bored. I am pretty sure this is not a good excuse. Zeroflamez said: Hajime no Ippo does a good job at portraying bully characters, Specifically how years later Ippo becomes friends with his bully and even then, the bully doesn't feel like he deserves Ippo's kindness and friendship. Never intended watching this, now it's on my perma ban. Zeroflamez said: By the way I've also been bullied in school, even then though I still looked at these people as human beings not psycho's. - Than you are a classical case of Stockholm syndrome. (Or an ex bully in disguise.) - All the psychos are human beings...juts not very pleasant ones and definitely don't want to heal. Like an important part for a bully on a redemption path is knowing that this is wrong (like not for the sake of victim but from purely social reasons) and they should stop...but naaah. Abusing power is too sweet of a deal. Woah you sure are jaded and full of hate and I feel sorry for you. People make mistakes people do mean shit. People learn, people grow, and people move on from these things. Is it fair to the victims? No. However you have the option to grow in these situations as well. Either you stand up for yourself or accept what happened and become a stronger and better person because of it. If you decide to remain a victim and carry hate all your life that's on you. No I am not an ex bully in disguise or have stockholm syndrome for taking people on a person by person basis and not grouping every bully as a psycho like you're doing. I can't tell you how many times I've had people that bullied me at one point just stop one day randomly without me lifting a finger. I've even had times of bullies apologizing to my face for things they did to me years earlier. People change, people grow. That includes bullies. Forgiveness goes a long way dude. You should try it sometime. Yes you did imply it. You said you don't remember any MC getting black mailed and you aren't sure where I'm getting that cliche from. Lack of self awareness I guess.. _Maneki-Neko_ said: @Zeroflamez It depends on what you associate with the term "criminal". You have seen 91 Days for example, Black Lagoon or ... I didn't look that far in your list, but technically Ash from Banana Fish for example counts as criminal. There are also series like Detective Conan, where the criminals are mostly murderers with very diverse and different murder motives. And then, there are also some thieves in anime. I'm talking about the thug criminals that exist solely to create tension or conflict for the main character that don't serve any greater purpose. They always look the same, executed the same and are found in the same scenarios over and over again. |
ZeroflamezJun 12, 2020 2:31 PM
| @alshu @Zeroflamez Please don't fight over which is the right way to react as a bullied person. There is no single right way and there's no need to get nasty judging life experiences that were both harsh. |
No you don't...because you are an ex bully and want people to praise you for that. Zeroflamez said: Is it fair to the victims? No. Yeah, the only fair treatment will be to become friends with the bully, sometimes give him/her small amounts of money and back rubs Zeroflamez said: People make mistakes people do mean shit. Yeah small mistakes that can go for years. Zeroflamez said: People learn, people grow ...and learn to be more creative in psycho torture and humiliating. |
| @1kyo 1Kyo said: Domestic violence is a pretty common theme that not only anime likes to employ. Plus, it's said that about a third of all households experience it. It is a common issue in our society that many can relate to. And of course, it's often alcohol and drugs that cause it, and some way for the man to cherrypick his wife's flaws. I legit don't remember any antagonistic high school student blackmailing the MC in any anime, so dunno where you have that cliche from. Everything in the above specifically the sentence in bold is verbatim what you had told me in the previous post. How in the world am I putting words in your mouth? I literally was specifically referring to what you had said and what I put in bold here. How does that NOT imply it doesn't exist? You literally said you do not remember any high school MC's being black mailed then proceeded to question where I got that cliche from. That's clearly implying that it doesn't exist because you don't remember seeing it. alshu said: No you don't...because you are an ex bully and want people to praise you for that. Zeroflamez said: Is it fair to the victims? No. Yeah, the only fair treatment will be to become friends with the bully, sometimes give him/her small amounts of money and back rubs Zeroflamez said: People make mistakes people do mean shit. Yeah small mistakes that can go for years. Zeroflamez said: People learn, people grow ...and learn to be more creative in psycho torture and humiliating. Yes dude I must be an ex bully because I've learned to move on from past experiences and not let them dictate my entire life and perception of people. You're still stuck in a victim mindset and it's just oozing from your posts. All people change, including bullies and they are just as human as anyone else. They also deserve to have the chance to be forgiven for their actions just like anyone else. I'm not excusing people being bullies however you don't know what's going on behind the scenes for them to exhibit this kind of behavior. You blindly hating bullies and seeing them as only psychopaths is extremely alarming. jal90 said: @alshu @Zeroflamez Please don't fight over which is the right way to react as a bullied person. There is no single right way and there's no need to get nasty judging life experiences that were both harsh. I don't care how he reacts to his bullied past. Nor am I judging his life experiences. I just don't agree with his labeling of bullies are all emotionless psychopaths that live to ruin other people's lives. He's being a hypocrite by judging bullies the exact same way they judged him. It's sick and many bully victims end up falling into this mindset. They believe that bullies were born to torment others and because of this they are immune from being bullied themselves or experiencing the hardships of life. |
ZeroflamezJun 12, 2020 4:53 PM
| What? I'm pretty sure all bullies are psychic archmages who feed off of your suffering and replenish their mana with your life energy to attain immortality. I dunno where you guys got that "they were just stupid kids who can change and grow as a person" schtick. That's what they want you to think! How fucking gullible can you be! |
 |
| Ladd Russo is gold tho; |
  Grant me one hour on love's most sacred shores To clasp the bosom that my soul adores, Lie heart to heart and merge my soul with yours |
Auron_ said: What? I'm pretty sure all bullies are psychic archmages who feed off of your suffering and replenish their mana with your life energy to attain immortality. I dunno where you guys got that "they were just stupid kids who can change and grow as a person" schtick. That's what they want you to think! How fucking gullible can you be! Is this sarcasm? Nurguburu said: Cuz criminals are assholes in real life too, we should not have compassion for them or show them in a good way. They decided to be like this. A lot of hate you have there.. |
| Because most writers are lazy and uncreative. |
| Who are you and why do you show your hostility towards a complete stranger whom you've not once spoken with before. Are you seriously asking to get blocked? Well, if that's what your intent is; to tempt me into throwing hands with someone as lowly and insignificant as you, then i may grant your wish provided you articulate yourself a bit better when trying to spite a person of my wavelength. |
-Ryu said: Because most writers are lazy and uncreative. Yeah I'm certainly coming to that conclusion myself. |
Zeroflamez said: Yes dude I must be an ex bully because I've learned to move on from past experiences and not let them dictate my entire life and perception of people. No, you are (eventually) ex bully because you are generalizing all bullies as "actually nice people who made some small mistakes about some awkward kids that were already hated by everyone". Actually this is only part of the bully kind. Zeroflamez said: You're still stuck in a victim mindset and it's just oozing from your posts. Ohhh, so the victim must have a redemption arc too? Ask his/her torturer for forgiveness for being his/her target? Turn the other cheek? Zeroflamez said: All people change, including bullies and they are just as human as anyone else. Actually 5 years ago I met two guys from the same gang. Back than none of them was my personal bully but they were there too (usually their kind move in packs). They immediately recognized me and started being very vocal about certain details of the past. Kind of stupid: the were still 4 - 5 years older than me but I wasn't 10 year old any more...and as I mentioned before, only two of them. (Not enough to beat me with endangering themselves. Not those two.) So not only that they hadn't change for good but also they became dumber. By the way some dudes from that same gang became part of the organized crime at certain point of the time, one even got shot (by other mobsters)...and those seemed the brightest from the bunch. Obviously you need brains to do crime and not mainly sadistic urges - none of said guys touched me. Zeroflamez said: You blindly hating bullies and seeing them as only psychopaths is extremely alarming. My bullies were psychopaths. They bullied many people (from other schools too, kindergarten kids...) and even the police tried to intimidate them but to no avail. Later some guys from the same gang went strait to the mob. It's extremely alarming that you are defending them without the slightest idea who they were. |
alshuJun 13, 2020 6:57 AM
| because those arent meant to be important characters on their own but simply plot devices to give the MC a challenge or developement. So its easy copy paste. |
| "This emotion is mine alone. It is for Madoka alone." - Homura or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. |
1Kyo said: Zeroflamez said: @1kyo I legit don't remember any antagonistic high school student blackmailing the MC in any anime, so dunno where you have that cliche from. Everything in the above specifically the sentence in bold is verbatim what you had told me in the previous post. How in the world am I putting words in your mouth? I literally was specifically referring to what you had said and what I put in bold here. How does that NOT imply it doesn't exist? You literally said you do not remember any high school MC's being black mailed then proceeded to question where I got that cliche from. That's clearly implying that it doesn't exist because you don't remember seeing it. So it seems you haven't seen Anohana. Do you remember the final scene that many people claimed they cried to? Now don't say you don't (even if you actually don't), because if you say you don't, that means you're implying the scene doesn't exist. That is the logic you're trying to make sense of. Looks like you didn't "remember" to reflect on it. The issue is not that you don't remember seeing the cliche. The problem is that you say you don't remember seeing the trope THEN follow up with "Dunno where you got this cliche from" you are literally implying that it does not exist. What you said is liken to someone saying "There's a lot of bears in this forest" then another person saying "I don't remember seeing any bears out here, so I'm not sure where you got that idea from". The other person is clearly implying that the person is doubting the individual because they specifically don't remember seeing any bears themselves. If you can't see how this is implying then you likely have autism or Asperger. alshu said: Zeroflamez said: Yes dude I must be an ex bully because I've learned to move on from past experiences and not let them dictate my entire life and perception of people. No, you are (eventually) ex bully because you are generalizing all bullies as "actually nice people who made some small mistakes about some awkward kids that were already hated by everyone". Actually this is only part of the bully kind. Zeroflamez said: You're still stuck in a victim mindset and it's just oozing from your posts. Ohhh, so the victim must have a redemption arc too? Ask his/her torturer for forgiveness for being his/her target? Turn the other cheek? Zeroflamez said: All people change, including bullies and they are just as human as anyone else. Actually 5 years ago I met two guys from the same gang. Back than none of them was my personal bully but they were there too (usually their kind move in packs). They immediately recognized me and started being very vocal about certain details of the past. Kind of stupid: the were still 4 - 5 years older than me but I wasn't 10 year old any more...and as I mentioned before, only two of them. (Not enough to beat me with endangering themselves. Not those two.) So not only that they hadn't change for good but also they became dumber. By the way some dudes from that same gang became part of the organized crime at certain point of the time, one even got shot (by other mobsters)...and those seemed the brightest from the bunch. Obviously you need brains to do crime and not mainly sadistic urges - none of said guys touched me. Zeroflamez said: You blindly hating bullies and seeing them as only psychopaths is extremely alarming. My bullies were psychopaths. They bullied many people (from other schools too, kindergarten kids...) and even the police tried to intimidate them but to no avail. Later some guys from the same gang went strait to the mob. It's extremely alarming that you are defending them without the slightest idea who they were. I don't know your bullies. I'm not defending YOUR bullies. They clearly sound like assholes and I'm not saying they aren't. What you're doing is generalizing bullies as all psychopaths and evil people. That is just as unfair as the bullies that target kids for the way they look or talk and judging them because of it. You don't know EVERY bully so how can you make a judgement on all of them? How do you feel when people make blanket statements about Anime fans that are negative like they are all socially awkward weebs that are fat and smell? You are an Anime fan so they are judging you too. What you're doing with bullies is absolutely no different than what "normies" do when they judge Anime fans based off of some bad experiences with them. Just because those specific bullies were psychopaths does not mean ALL bullies are psychopaths. What you're doing is no different than a guy thinking all black people are thugs cause he got robbed by one or a woman saying all men are rapists because she got raped by one. Moving on from past bullying trauma doesn't mean you have to forgive them or kiss their ass. It just means accepting what happened and move on. Bad things are happening in the world every day, the world doesn't stop for it and neither should your life when it comes to your own problems. You can sit around with your undying hatred for bullies all you want but those same bullies likely don't even remember you exist anymore. |
ZeroflamezJun 13, 2020 12:46 PM
| The bully/criminal/asshole characters usually aren't important to the overall story so it makes sense they won't put effort in to making them interesting or nuanced. |
 _______I like rocks__  |
| These type of people are really like that though in real life. You give people in general too much credit. |
 ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
You were talking about all bullies. Zeroflamez said: What you're doing is generalizing bullies as all psychopaths and evil people. They are psychopaths and evil people. The question is will they stop being such and how. Also there are psychopaths and evil people who are not acting like bullies in a similar fashion they are not beyond redemption. Again the interesting question is under which conditions they could stop being that. Talking from personal experience I have seen a generic psychopath slowly progressing to normal behaviour but never saw a bully doing that. As mentioning earlier the [fake] position of power [over weaker opponents] is too sweet of a deal. Zeroflamez said: That is just as unfair as the bullies that target kids for the way they look or talk and judging them because of it. Bullies are like helpless kids? This is news to me. Zeroflamez said: You don't know EVERY bully so how can you make a judgement on all of them? I am judging their acts. And you know, there is something called common sense. Like you can excuse someone who have stolen food preventing hypoglycaemia but saying "Well I was so stressed that I just needed to give this nerd an atomic wedgie." is absurd. Zeroflamez said: How do you feel when people make blanket statements about Anime fans that are negative like they are all socially awkward weebs that are fat and smell? Ohhh, this generalisation which is made up by bullies? - Come ooon, the bros just wanted to have some fun, forgive them! - Incidentally this is true in my case, so I don't take it as an offence. Zeroflamez said: You are an Anime fan so they are judging you too. What you're doing with bullies is absolutely no different than what "normies" do when they judge Anime fans based off of some bad experiences with them. Just because those specific bullies were psychopaths does not mean ALL bullies are psychopaths. Yeah, those guys with glasses are practically the same as serial killers. Stop calling them bad names! Zeroflamez said: What you're doing is no different than a guy thinking all black people are thugs cause he got robbed by one or a woman saying all men are rapists because she got raped by one. Now that's an absurd comparison. Bullies are already caught in the act, no weaseling out of that. Zeroflamez said: Moving on from past bullying trauma doesn't mean you have to forgive them or kiss their ass. I don't? Now I am confused. Make up your mind! Zeroflamez said: It just means accepting what happened and move on. I did exactly that. Which deosn't mean that I should like my ex bullies or any bully. Zeroflamez said: Bad things are happening in the world every day, the world doesn't stop for it and neither should your life when it comes to your own problems. My life stopped or something? Ohhh, I got it now! I became a weeb to cope with the trauma. Zeroflamez said: You can sit around with your undying hatred for bullies all you want but those same bullies likely don't even remember you exist anymore. - Hatred against injustice is somehow tolerable if you ask me. - My guys remembered me...almost proud of them. - Also are you implying that if I see bulling in progress I shouldn't care because this is for the well being of the victims? |
alshuJun 13, 2020 2:04 PM
Zeroflamez said: It always comes off as so over the top and unrealistic. Like for example it's always either the bully character in a school setting black mailing the MC, killing the kitten or puppy they visit every day on school grounds, or straight up trying to kill the MC. Or when they need to portray gang members( which always end up being fodder) they are always creeping on the female character and if they end up kidnapping a female character they always say the same tired line "We're gonna have some fun with you". Or they say that after she rejects them in an alley way(of course right). Then if they want to show an abusive husband it's always in the same way every time. He's gonna be a drinker, He's gonna be drunk, he's gonna be unemployed and he's certainly always going to be beating his wife cause she isn't bringing enough money in. It's like the writers can't do anything else but make criminals creepy, rapey and psychotic. Or make bullies sociopaths and psychopaths. I can't be the only one that see's this same tired troupe over and over again in Anime that are in a real world setting. Alright. Can you give an example based on your anime watching experience? Name a character. The reason I'm asking for example is because your post is a mesh mash of one or many characters that the descriptions you gave are not clear where they set on. Also it feels like your post now focuses on... I dunno. Delinquent students? And the thread's title ask why assholes and criminals are the same? |
ArabianLuffyJun 13, 2020 2:27 PM
 |
1Kyo said: Zeroflamez said: The issue is not that you don't remember seeing the cliche. The problem is that you say you don't remember seeing the trope THEN follow up with "Dunno where you got this cliche from" you are literally implying that it does not exist. No, it means I'm implying that I don't know where you saw that cliche. Zeroflamez said: What you said is liken to someone saying "There's a lot of bears in this forest" then another person saying "I don't remember seeing any bears out here, so I'm not sure where you got that idea from". The other person is clearly implying that the person is doubting the individual because they specifically don't remember seeing any bears themselves. You should apply for the olympic games with mental gymnastics like that. Take a second to think about it and you'll realize your analogy makes no sense. And if you don't: Zeroflamez said: then you likely have autism or Asperger LOL my analogy makes every bit of sense. It's not that you not remembering the cliche is what makes you believe it doesn't exist, it's the fact that you imply and doubt the existence of it by following up that you don't remember the trope by saying "Dunno where you got this cliche from". That is an implication. Anyway I'm done talking to you. Too much of an effort and you clearly are too stupid to understand what you wrote. alshu said: You were talking about all bullies. Zeroflamez said: What you're doing is generalizing bullies as all psychopaths and evil people. They are psychopaths and evil people. The question is will they stop being such and how. Also there are psychopaths and evil people who are not acting like bullies in a similar fashion they are not beyond redemption. Again the interesting question is under which conditions they could stop being that. Talking from personal experience I have seen a generic psychopath slowly progressing to normal behaviour but never saw a bully doing that. As mentioning earlier the [fake] position of power [over weaker opponents] is too sweet of a deal. Zeroflamez said: That is just as unfair as the bullies that target kids for the way they look or talk and judging them because of it. Bullies are like helpless kids? This is news to me. Zeroflamez said: You don't know EVERY bully so how can you make a judgement on all of them? I am judging their acts. And you know, there is something called common sense. Like you can excuse someone who have stolen food preventing hypoglycaemia but saying "Well I was so stressed that I just needed to give this nerd an atomic wedgie." is absurd. Zeroflamez said: How do you feel when people make blanket statements about Anime fans that are negative like they are all socially awkward weebs that are fat and smell? Ohhh, this generalisation which is made up by bullies? - Come ooon, the bros just wanted to have some fun, forgive them! - Incidentally this is true in my case, so I don't take it as an offence. Zeroflamez said: You are an Anime fan so they are judging you too. What you're doing with bullies is absolutely no different than what "normies" do when they judge Anime fans based off of some bad experiences with them. Just because those specific bullies were psychopaths does not mean ALL bullies are psychopaths. Yeah, those guys with glasses are practically the same as serial killers. Stop calling them bad names! Zeroflamez said: What you're doing is no different than a guy thinking all black people are thugs cause he got robbed by one or a woman saying all men are rapists because she got raped by one. Now that's an absurd comparison. Bullies are already caught in the act, no weaseling out of that. Zeroflamez said: Moving on from past bullying trauma doesn't mean you have to forgive them or kiss their ass. I don't? Now I am confused. Make up your mind! Zeroflamez said: It just means accepting what happened and move on. I did exactly that. Which deosn't mean that I should like my ex bullies or any bully. Zeroflamez said: Bad things are happening in the world every day, the world doesn't stop for it and neither should your life when it comes to your own problems. My life stopped or something? Ohhh, I got it now! I became a weeb to cope with the trauma. Zeroflamez said: You can sit around with your undying hatred for bullies all you want but those same bullies likely don't even remember you exist anymore. - Hatred against injustice is somehow tolerable if you ask me. - My guys remembered me...almost proud of them. - Also are you implying that if I see bulling in progress I shouldn't care because this is for the well being of the victims? I never said you have to like any bully or your own bully. It's also not an absurd comparison because a Woman does NOT KNOW that the guy next to her is a rapist. Just like YOU don't know that a bully is a psychopath. Unless you know for a fact that the bully was diagnosed by A PROFESSIONAL and was clinically labeled a Psychopath then what you think means fuck all. The fact that in your mind that it's common sense to believe all bullies are psychopaths is disturbing. Just as is your blind hatred towards ones that you don't even know. Judging by what you're saying I'm pretty sure you're just fine with all the victims of bullying that go on to shoot up their entire school. I mean as long as the bullies are dead who cares right? |
Doesn't matter that much to me. It's not like you're supposed to like the guy (unless he's the protagonist) in fact it's the opposite. A douche with reasons is still a douche.  If you want to know the specifics of why it's a cliche, it's a moralistic thing in works for children or teenagers to "Not Glorify Evil" which loosely translates to making the bad guy as loathsome and shallow as possible, like a bright neon sign of a negative role model saying "you should hate this guy". 90% of these stereotypical throw-away-thugs are only in an episode or two as a minor villain anyway why waste time on an elaborate backstory for them. Now if it's your primary villain, yes, that's just lazy writing but it can fit if it's the right kind of show. |
KruszerJun 13, 2020 6:25 PM
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97"  |
1Kyo said: Zeroflamez said: LOL my analogy makes every bit of sense. As much sense as your interpretation of my post, I reckon. Zeroflamez said: Anyway I'm done talking to you. Too much of an effort and you clearly are too stupid to understand what you wrote. The extent of your insecurity is pitiful. You are downright insulting everyone on this thread who doesn't obediently accept your shit, without even considering to entertain the idea that you might not be the brightest yourself. You'd be the type of wrong-way-driver who thinks everyone else is driving in the wrong direction. You're willfully being oblivious to anything that exposes you as wrong. Keep attacking that strawman that implied "that cliche doesn't exist". I'm not protecting it. I haven't insulted a single person on here. I've been debating in a civil manner with everyone. Including the guy I've been having a back and forth with, I disagree with him but I haven't insulted him. You are the first person and only person I've insulted. So please cut that "You're insulting EVERYONE in the thread that doesn't agree with you" bullshit because it isn't true. As I said the only one I've insulted is you and you alone. It's funny you're trying to tell me that I'm insulting people for not obediently accepting my bullshit when that guy Alshu said I am an ex bully or a bully in disguise for having an opinion that is not the same as his. I never claimed to be the brightest or smartest but I've brought proper arguments to the table every time. I explain what I have to say and what I believe in detail an am met with passive aggressive one word responses every time. I've clarified why I believe you implied what you did 3 times in 3 separate posts. You either tell me you did not imply this, ask me where did you imply this, and telling me my logic makes sense. Yet you make absolutely zero attempt to tell me why or even clarify what you meant by your original post if I did interpret it wrong as you say. Instead you just keep giving me these rhetorical responses that go no where then get mad when I get tired of explaining myself and insult you. Then all of a sudden I'm the big bully of this thread. Give me a fucking break dude. |
More topics from this board
» 🍷 AD Summer 2025 Best Girl Contest ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Shizuna - Sep 28 |
275 |
by Supersonic_Pain
»»
15 seconds ago |
|
» Are you smart enough to explain your favorite anime to angry people who ask questions?Catalano - Yesterday |
23 |
by Duado
»»
53 seconds ago |
|
» ⌛ Best Girls of the Past ErasShizuna - 2 hours ago |
38 |
by SouthRzVa
»»
2 minutes ago |
|
» 🍉 Summer 2025: Anime of the Season (AOTS) ( 1 2 )nirererin - Yesterday |
91 |
by daAresinger
»»
17 minutes ago |
|
» Waifu War V5 (Anniversary-Edition!) (Round 1) ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )TheMinkalex - Sep 28 |
295 |
by Lucifrost
»»
19 minutes ago |