Ratohnhaketon said: CherryLover said: You like something while recognizing what separates it from reality. Congratulations, you're just like the overwhelming majority of normal human beings. So what's the problem with misrepresentation of women or any demographic for that matter? I have never seen an anime that implies their portrayal of a character as the standard bearer for what people are really like in real life. The only person who does that is Miyazaki when he gets drunk and rambles about otaku and how anime was a mistake.I have already adequately explained my reasoning, if you hadn't noticed. Just because I like the show doesn't mean it has no level of misrepresentation. Of course there are going to be more extreme levels of it in other anime, which are for worse and perpetuating falsely characterized women to appease the fantasies of males. But as I have also said, art imitates life. When the majority of anime being produced have females being misrepresented, then of course I am going to take issue with it. Sure, it's fiction. But does that preclude from portraying females with at least some dignity? No, not at all. When delving into this, I am not saying authors are intentionally doing this (well, most of the time). But ignorance or not, they are promoting misrepresentation. Spooky_E said: CherryLover said: wait what? me ? troll? And you sure you're the one to talk here?@Spooky_E @Zanzegan @Xillya- That's three clear troll accounts on this thread. If you think this is delusional, then LEAVE. The issue of this thread obviously has no meaning to you lot, and you are merely looking to derive some sick pleasure from my passion for the issue. You're looking for a way to bait me in some way... Disgusting. What is this thread? delusional comedy chat? lmao Precisely why I am calling you out on your trolling. You are blurting such nonsense purely to goad a reaction out of me. |
Waiting patiently for springtime to return! n_n Join the Social Justice Club now! Everyone dedicated to spreading feminism on MAL is welcome to join! Link to my interview! |
hoopla123 said: Your argument about male harem MC's being a bad representation of men is flawed because that's not how the characters are depicted to the audience. At the end of the day, no matter how many tits they grab, or how many vaginas fall in their mouths, they will always be the hero. Emnschweiz said: No, it's not really the same honestly. These characters are simply self-insert characters. They're bare bones shit-tier because they only exist so the audience can have a view point to see women fawn over these characters. These protagonist characters aren't depicted like you say they are. Even though that is what they are, that's not how they're shown to the audience. These characters are never giving a monologue talking about how terrible they're treating all these women, or how they're so damn stupid. They just keep on keeping on like they're not doing shit wrong. Infinite Stratos and love ru are essentially the same show, they only exist to give a cocktease. And it's not just Infinte Stratos and love ru doing this, it's every harem show ever. It's a theme that's current throughout the entire medium. What? > implying Shoujo manga MC's aren't self inserts either. > implying Otome game MC's aren't self inserts either. What are you even on about lmao? If you want to argue about female misrepresentation, it's the same shit for males as well. Same goes for shoujo, you said it yourself. The main MC will act downright abusive to the heroine, but they're still the main love interest, am I wrong? |
an egomaniac and a fool |
Xillya- said: CherryLover said: But cherry, if view thing as whole don't you think this place has no meaning to you too? just thinking, no hard feeling ^_^@Spooky_E @Zanzegan @Xillya- That's three clear troll accounts on this thread. If you think this is delusional, then LEAVE. The issue of this thread obviously has no meaning to you lot, and you are merely looking to derive some sick pleasure from my passion for the issue. You're looking for a way to bait me in some way... Disgusting. But just a thought can you killed, Xillya. D: This is the thought police we are dealing with. Spooky_E said: Ratohnhaketon said: You like something while recognizing what separates it from reality. Congratulations, you're just like the overwhelming majority of normal human beings. So what's the problem with misrepresentation of women or any demographic for that matter? I have never seen an anime that implies their portrayal of a character as the standard bearer for what people are really like in real life. The only person who does that is Miyazaki when he gets drunk and rambles about otaku and how anime was a mistake. blasphemy Rotohn-kun didn't i tell you, only cherry sama can like moe anime for other aspect, if we, the filthy male pig watch and like the same thing, it's obvious that we like it because of meoblob. right, right. In my case, I am a filthy worm though*. I take my identification seriously. |
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Zanzegan said: GODDAMMIT ZOUKEN, why did you let your experiment subject walk free when the Holy Grail hasn't even arrived yet, TAKE HER BACK AND LET SHINJI TEACH HER SOME LESSON.Xillya- said: But cherry, if view thing as whole don't you think this place has no meaning to you too? just thinking, no hard feeling ^_^ But just a thought can you killed, Xillya. D: This is the thought police we are dealing with. Spooky_E said: blasphemy Rotohn-kun didn't i tell you, only cherry sama can like moe anime for other aspect, if we, the filthy male pig watch and like the same thing, it's obvious that we like it because of meoblob. right, right. In my case, I am a filthy worm though*. I take my identification seriously. |
Emnschweiz said: hoopla123 said: Your argument about male harem MC's being a bad representation of men is flawed because that's not how the characters are depicted to the audience. At the end of the day, no matter how many tits they grab, or how many vaginas fall in their mouths, they will always be the hero.What? > implying Shoujo manga MC's aren't self inserts either. > implying Otome game MC's aren't self inserts either. What are you even on about lmao? If you want to argue about female misrepresentation, it's the same shit for males as well. Nah, they are pretty much depicted as losers who can't decide on grills. And the male fanbase HATES them because they can't relate to these losers. Same goes for shoujo, you said it yourself. The main MC will act downright abusive to the heroine, but they're still the main love interest, am I wrong? No, he was joking. The abusive ones are not USUALLY the ones who get the girls. The main love interest may not get along with her at first but because of character development, that changes and he turns awesome after falling in lurve. |
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Chiibi said: Ah, thank you for clarifying. It's hard to tell when people are actually trying to make a point online without any facial expression or tone of voice n stuff lolEmnschweiz said: Your argument about male harem MC's being a bad representation of men is flawed because that's not how the characters are depicted to the audience. At the end of the day, no matter how many tits they grab, or how many vaginas fall in their mouths, they will always be the hero. Nah, they are pretty much depicted as losers who can't decide on grills. Same goes for shoujo, you said it yourself. The main MC will act downright abusive to the heroine, but they're still the main love interest, am I wrong? No, he was joking. The abusive ones are not USUALLY the ones who get the girls. The main love interest may not get along with her at first but because of character development, that changes and he turns awesome after falling in lurve. |
an egomaniac and a fool |
Emnschweiz said: hoopla123 said: Your argument about male harem MC's being a bad representation of men is flawed because that's not how the characters are depicted to the audience. At the end of the day, no matter how many tits they grab, or how many vaginas fall in their mouths, they will always be the hero. What? > implying Shoujo manga MC's aren't self inserts either. > implying Otome game MC's aren't self inserts either. What are you even on about lmao? If you want to argue about female misrepresentation, it's the same shit for males as well. Same goes for shoujo, you said it yourself. The main MC will act downright abusive to the heroine, but they're still the main love interest, am I wrong? What? That's literally the same case for Shoujo manga and Otome games. You are the self insert of the female MC and whatever choice she makes, she still is the hero/main focus of the series. But way to make a double standard separating Male and Female focused mediums. What a joke. With your argument, I could say that Rito is the MC and depicted as a nice, righteous guy, but in the end still ends up as a sexual deviant/pretty criminal pervert. It's the same shit. Your argument makes no sense. |
Spooky_E said: Zanzegan said: GODDAMMIT ZOUKEN, why did you let your experiment subject walk free when the Holy Grail hasn't even arrived yet, TAKE HER BACK AND LET SHINJI TEACH HER SOME LESSON.But just a thought can you killed, Xillya. D: This is the thought police we are dealing with. right, right. In my case, I am a filthy worm though*. I take my identification seriously. B-but, she ate killed me, remember? D: Even I can't handle her... |
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hoopla123 said: You still clinging on the logic of "there's male objectification so it's fine for woman too"Emnschweiz said: Your argument about male harem MC's being a bad representation of men is flawed because that's not how the characters are depicted to the audience. At the end of the day, no matter how many tits they grab, or how many vaginas fall in their mouths, they will always be the hero. Same goes for shoujo, you said it yourself. The main MC will act downright abusive to the heroine, but they're still the main love interest, am I wrong? What? That's literally the same case for Shoujo manga and Otome games. You are the self insert of the female MC and whatever choice she makes, she still is the hero/main focus of the series. But way to make a double standard separating Male and Female focused mediums. What a joke. With your argument, I could say that Rito is the MC and depicted as a nice, righteous guy, but in the end still ends up as a sexual deviant/pretty criminal pervert. It's the same shit. Your argument makes no sense. Just you because no one talks about the male part doesn't mean we can't talk about female part. Right now the topic is go with mispresenting of woman, what you're doing is just trying to shut down the topic rather than discussing it. |
CherryLover said: Ratohnhaketon said: You like something while recognizing what separates it from reality. Congratulations, you're just like the overwhelming majority of normal human beings. So what's the problem with misrepresentation of women or any demographic for that matter? I have never seen an anime that implies their portrayal of a character as the standard bearer for what people are really like in real life. The only person who does that is Miyazaki when he gets drunk and rambles about otaku and how anime was a mistake. But as I have also said, art imitates life. When the majority of anime being produced have females being misrepresented, then of course I am going to take issue with it. Sure, it's fiction. But does that preclude from portraying females with at least some dignity? No, not at all. When delving into this, I am not saying authors are intentionally doing this (well, most of the time). But ignorance or not, they are promoting misrepresentation. Spooky_E said: wait what? me ? troll? And you sure you're the one to talk here? What is this thread? delusional comedy chat? lmao Precisely why I am calling you out on your trolling. You are blurting such nonsense purely to goad a reaction out of me. But cherry, i'm kinda curious, how many have you banned with your baiting already? |
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Zanzegan said: But how can she eat you when the HGW haven't started yet? did someone other than Shirou triggers her transformation?Spooky_E said: GODDAMMIT ZOUKEN, why did you let your experiment subject walk free when the Holy Grail hasn't even arrived yet, TAKE HER BACK AND LET SHINJI TEACH HER SOME LESSON. B-but, she ate killed me, remember? D: Even I can't handle her... |
Xillya- said: CherryLover said: But as I have also said, art imitates life. When the majority of anime being produced have females being misrepresented, then of course I am going to take issue with it. Sure, it's fiction. But does that preclude from portraying females with at least some dignity? No, not at all. When delving into this, I am not saying authors are intentionally doing this (well, most of the time). But ignorance or not, they are promoting misrepresentation. Precisely why I am calling you out on your trolling. You are blurting such nonsense purely to goad a reaction out of me. But cherry, i'm kinda curious, how many have you banned with your baiting already? I am not baiting. It is you and your circle that baited me to the point of leaving these forums for a bit. While I enjoyed the time away, I realized I couldn't just let you and your gang of clowns silence me. |
Waiting patiently for springtime to return! n_n Join the Social Justice Club now! Everyone dedicated to spreading feminism on MAL is welcome to join! Link to my interview! |
CherryLover said: The lens in which we view anime is vastly different then because I don't equate misrepresentation to disrespect. While the main appeal for moe characters can be their cuteness, I rarely find that to be their sole defining trait. Often times they become endearing to me through their experiences and interactions with other characters.But as I have also said, art imitates life. When the majority of anime being produced have females being misrepresented, then of course I am going to take issue with it. Sure, it's fiction. But does that preclude from portraying females with at least some dignity? No, not at all. When delving into this, I am not saying authors are intentionally doing this (well, most of the time). But ignorance or not, they are promoting misrepresentation. My favorite example of this is Nagisa from Clannad. She receives great criticism as being nothing more than a fantasy for men who want a submissive, weak willed, obedient pet. What I see, however, is someone who does the best she can to live strongly, doesn't let her circumstances bring her down, and shows unparalleled compassion that both men and women can learn from. When you have an obsession with a certain agenda, you'll be able to see it everywhere even above the realm of reason. |
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Spooky_E said: But how can she eat you when the HGW haven't started yet? did someone other than Shirou triggers her transformation? Maybe it was this thread..!? It is a bit early for all this. HF isn't even out yet. |
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hoopla123 said: Emnschweiz said: Your argument about male harem MC's being a bad representation of men is flawed because that's not how the characters are depicted to the audience. At the end of the day, no matter how many tits they grab, or how many vaginas fall in their mouths, they will always be the hero. Same goes for shoujo, you said it yourself. The main MC will act downright abusive to the heroine, but they're still the main love interest, am I wrong? What? That's literally the same case for Shoujo manga and Otome games. You are the self insert of the female MC and whatever choice she makes, she still is the hero/main focus of the series. But way to make a double standard separating Male and Female focused mediums. What a joke. With your argument, I could say that Rito is the MC and depicted as a nice, righteous guy, but in the end still ends up as a sexual deviant/pretty criminal pervert. It's the same shit. Your argument makes no sense. http://dereproject.com/discussion/gender-roles-and-sexism-in-modern-shoujo-manga/ these blog articulates it better than I can |
an egomaniac and a fool |
Zilf said: You still clinging on the logic of "there's male objectification so it's fine for woman too" Just you because no one talks about the male part doesn't mean we can't talk about female part. Right now the topic is go with mispresenting of woman, what you're doing is just trying to shut down the topic rather than discussing it. Look, I think it'd be a problem if men didn't get objectified and ONLY the women did. And I'd sure as hell complain about it. But feminism IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE about equality. So if male fans and female fans are treated the same way via "Okay, here's some eyecandy for you too!!"....it doesn't feel like an issue anymore. PORN FOR EVERYONE. |
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CherryLover said: Baiting you to the point of leaving these forums for a bit? such nonsense, we all love you cherry if you don't know. I am not baiting. It is you and your circle that baited me to the point of leaving these forums for a bit. While I enjoyed the time away, I realized I couldn't just let you and your gang of clowns silence me. (you bait Emiya to the point of leaving these forums, don't you know?) no hard feeling, just an update on you husbando's status. ^_^ |
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Ratohnhaketon said: CherryLover said: The lens in which we view anime is vastly different then because I don't equate misrepresentation to disrespect. While the main appeal for moe characters can be their cuteness, I rarely find that to be their sole defining trait. Often times they become endearing to me through their experiences and interactions with other characters.But as I have also said, art imitates life. When the majority of anime being produced have females being misrepresented, then of course I am going to take issue with it. Sure, it's fiction. But does that preclude from portraying females with at least some dignity? No, not at all. When delving into this, I am not saying authors are intentionally doing this (well, most of the time). But ignorance or not, they are promoting misrepresentation. My favorite example of this is Nagisa from Clannad. She receives great criticism as being nothing more than a fantasy for men who want a submissive, weak willed, obedient pet. What I see, however, is someone who does the best she can to live strongly, doesn't let her circumstances bring her down, and shows unparalleled compassion that both men and women can learn from. When you have an obsession with a certain agenda, you'll be able to see it everywhere even above the realm of reason. Those examples are few and far between, I'm afraid. Most moe characters I have encountered simply are their for the sake of their cuteness, and nothing more. The problem lying with the "misrepresentation" I speak of are these examples of moe girls that have no depth or display decent traits you'd see in real women. When moe characters are just moe for the sake of being moe, it is pandering to the male audience. All I am arguing for is accurate portrayal. @Xillya-: Emiya was your ring leader. If nothing else, it delights me that I don't have to put up with his trolling and his disgusting Shinji fic. |
CherryLoverSep 15, 2016 8:59 PM
Waiting patiently for springtime to return! n_n Join the Social Justice Club now! Everyone dedicated to spreading feminism on MAL is welcome to join! Link to my interview! |
Chiibi said: That's like saying "just rape him back" to rape victim.Zilf said: You still clinging on the logic of "there's male objectification so it's fine for woman too" Just you because no one talks about the male part doesn't mean we can't talk about female part. Right now the topic is go with mispresenting of woman, what you're doing is just trying to shut down the topic rather than discussing it. Look, I think it'd be a problem if men didn't get objectified and ONLY the women did. And I'd sure as hell complain about it. But feminism IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE about equality. So if male fans and female fans are treated the same way via "Okay, here's some eyecandy for you too!!"....it doesn't feel like an issue anymore. PORN FOR EVERYONE. |
Zilf said: Chiibi said: That's like saying "just rape him back" to rape victim.Look, I think it'd be a problem if men didn't get objectified and ONLY the women did. And I'd sure as hell complain about it. But feminism IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE about equality. So if male fans and female fans are treated the same way via "Okay, here's some eyecandy for you too!!"....it doesn't feel like an issue anymore. PORN FOR EVERYONE. Oh yes, because giving someone their fantasy in media is the same as a sex crime. Are you high? Lol most of those manga suck anyway. (Maid-sama is ok) |
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| I think I'm going to ignore the above nonsense and just give my two cents on the subject at hand. Is moe misogynistic? Not inherently. And if you actually read the article in question, you would see that the commentary is less on moe shows and more on the community and fandom around them, but I digress as my commentary here is more meant to be about moe as a subject than the article. The problems, I think, are a cycle. The article quotes a book about moe and I want to point out a few of the quotations: "[Being young] makes them vulnerable, which inspires us to protect and nurture them. The character needs support, love, or care, even if she is strong and independent. If she is not at all vulnerable, then she can live on her own. It would be hard to approach such a perfect being." -Honda Toru, author and cultural critic This quote should raise an eyebrow. According to this statement, the girls that are described as "moe" are seen in this person's view more as vulnerable things to be protected, not as people with their own lives and desires. “Because that is when girls are the cutest. They are innocent, pure, and sincere. They don’t strategize and play games with people.” -Ito Noizo, illustrator and adult game character designer This (incredibly creepy) statement suggests that Ito sees other women as manipulative and dishonest. The fact that Ito herself is a woman is irrelevant and only shows that misogynistic views are not exclusive to men. Both of these quotes suggest that moe fans, or at least the stereotypical moe fan, are scared of women that have their own agency out of fear of not having control or losing them. This worldview is incredibly uncomfortable and I'm saying that as a man who, as such, will probably never have to deal with another person treating him like this. The problem, as I see it, is less about moe characters as they're written, which is where my biggest area of disagreement with the article is, and more with the fandom around it. But why do I call it a cycle? If I had to guess where the modern roots for moe lay, I would say that it largely started with the success of Haruhi Suzumiya. While I personally don't think it really fits in with the usual description of "moe" for various reasons, I do think it is vital in the popularizing of shows like Lucky Star or K-On!. No, it is not the only reason, but I do think it is what showed the business side of production that marketing cute girls was a viable way to make money. With the popularity of a show's cute girls, the executives will make shows designed to appeal to what made the last show's cute girls popular, which causes the new show's cute girls to become popular, which leads to the executives to making a show to appeal to what made the last show's cute girls popular and so on and so forth. That good shows come out of this cycle kind of amazes me. My criticism toward moe as a concept is based on how moe shows have a tendency to perpetuate this cycle, which appeals to worldviews like the ones quoted above. Now, what makes those quotes misogynistic? Gee, I dunno, maybe it's because they seem think women should be passive and submissive, as opposed to, you know, PEOPLE. |
CherryLover said: Most moe characters I have encountered simply are their for the sake of their cuteness, and nothing more. Could you name some examples instead of saying "most"? What's wrong with them being cute? They're not even cute in a sexual way but a childish way. |
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| A valid question that a lot of people in here seem to be asking is "So what?" I'm not sure that the article or its few defenders in this thread have supplied satisfactory answers. I have a few ideas in mind though... If someone can't be convinced that the article contains even a grain of truth, then that's where the conversation ends. If nothing solid can be established, then obviously it doesn't matter and there's no "So what?" factor. But for the sake of figuring out why anyone would/should care, suppose that you're like me. I actually agree that moe devices are often employed in a crude, pandering sort of way that cheapens female characters. From my perspective, having an awareness of the "problematic" usage of moe devices is no different from having an awareness of tired cliches, unnatural dialogue, jarring use of music, etc. — all of those things increase my capacity for critical viewing and influence my taste in positive ways. I get the most value out of art when I can engage with it and discuss it on many levels. I also hold the view that art cannot be completely divorced from its cultural context; so cultural critiques are always valid, even if they aren't always useful. I'm sure that Mary Sue's community holds the same view. That's one possible answer to "So what?" People care about "problematic" moe because through that lens you see cheapened characters and therefore worse anime. And of course all anime fans, including those on Mary Sue, want anime to be better. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Josh said: . And of course all anime fans, including those on Mary Sue, want anime to be better. Meh. I think it's fine the way it is. You only need to find the genres that appeal to you. It's not like ALL anime contain characters for only the sake of service. |
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MindForged said: This is a very positive and high-quality first forum post. (I'm not just saying that because I agree with you, I swear.) Welcome to MAL and enjoy your stay!Is moe often misogynistic? Probably. A problem is that moe isn't really a genre per se, but more like a trait and aesthetic in anime (imo anyway). So it's gonna be more vague as to what counts as moe than for other genres. And similarly, it's going to be in degrees, rather than a binary, if moe is misogynistic. That said (and as a broader critique of anime), moe does (more often than not) come of as misogynistic to me personally, as does the portrayal of women in in many anime. The constant cooing, weak kneed moments, pandering "oops is my ass sticking out to the viewer, oh my I'm blushing"... eh, it can get a bit tiresome. Perhaps it's moreso since moe often have younger girls, which makes it have a grosser dimension from my perspective; am I supposed to be aroused as this is how young teen girls are deliberately portrayed? I'm probably getting off topic. It's not that I can never like moe. I kinda like Aria & K-On. But look. Misogyny isn't just "I HATE WOMEN". Benevolent sexism isn't exactly a new or startling concept. When women had a much worse position in society, people rarely said they hated women, yet many were still.misogynistic. What they actually did was make claims about the capabilities & "proper role" of women in ways that are transparently demeaning to women. More to the point, how a media (or an artist) portrays members of particular groups is not something you can sensiblyou claimed is completely (or even mostly) walled off from the views of its creators. We find things like blackface to be indicative of the gross beliefs of those who made use of it. It's kind of an obvious example, but its to make what I think is an obvious point. Is moe misogynistic by necessity? No. But it's rarely sensible to criticize an entire category, as opposed to particular traits of the members of that category. Well, unless you can show that said category necessarily has that negative trait. But that's rarely present in artistic mediums, which is a very good thing. But hey, that's just my (rambly) opinion, and I don't watch much moe to begin with. Edit: Lol, of course anti-Semitism has reared it's ugly head. 😂 "I love the Jews". Sure thing pal, and we "love" you too. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
MindForged said: Josh said: This is a very positive and high-quality first forum post. (I'm not just saying that because I agree with you, I swear.) Welcome to MAL and enjoy your stay! Hah, thanks. 😄 I had to edit it a bit (flippin' typos...). I tend to find that these discussions inevitably descend into absurdly binary, defensive wars (on both sides). As is often the case, the truth is more subtle and harder to pin down. Not exactly a revolutionary concept everyone! 😂 I'm going to warn you now that you're probably going to want a thick skin and extreme patience with casual sexism around here. This is not the first thread with a number of idiotic and insulting posts regarding feminism. |
Cloud3514 said: Honestly you could say that for the internet in general. MindForged said: Hah, thanks. 😄 I had to edit it a bit (flippin' typos...). I tend to find that these discussions inevitably descend into absurdly binary, defensive wars (on both sides). As is often the case, the truth is more subtle and harder to pin down. Not exactly a revolutionary concept everyone! 😂 I'm going to warn you now that you're probably going to want a thick skin and extreme patience with casual sexism around here. This is not the first thread with a number of idiotic and insulting posts regarding feminism. A little more so in MAL though, the whole anti-sjw/anti-feminist idea is pretty popular for teenage males specifically |
an egomaniac and a fool |
| holy shit pickles when did the last hundred so posts happen why did this thread re-exploded reeeeeeeeeeee |
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Emnschweiz said: Honestly you could say that for the internet in general. A little more so in MAL though, the whole anti-sjw/anti-feminist idea is pretty popular for teenage males specifically I am specifically referring to MAL, but it is definitely the status quo of Internet culture in general. I find it kinda hilarious when I get the occasional idiot thinking that I'm going to take being called an SJW as an insult. It's a one way ticket to me not taking them seriously. |
Emnschweiz said: Honestly you could say that for the internet in general. A little more so in MAL though, the whole anti-sjw/anti-feminist idea is pretty popular for teenage males specifically Not trying to start something but is there a viable study that shows that? |
> Brings up my favorites. More like "somebody just tore up a hole in my fallacious logic"> Her opinion is invalid. Nice try. |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
MindForged said: Paul said: Not trying to start something but is there a viable study that shows that? Not sure it's a question that requires a massive study for, given its not particularly controversial or hard to determine (feel free to find one on this issue tho). A relatively good piece of evidence is to simplyc heck out the demographics of, say, the viewers of the most popular anti-anti-feminists on YouTube (e.g. Sargon of Akkad, Thunderf00t, etc). Its overwhelmingly young men. And as a general social point, "anti-X" groups are by nature dominated by people who either (or both) A) In the opposite group or B) Not going to benefit from the political actions of that group. Do you need a study for you to reasonably infer that the KKK is made up almost entirely of whites? This would be obvious, even to people who knew nothing about the KKK & were simply told about theverything beliefs of its members. The thing is that I'm not heavily interested or well endowed in all these anti-feminist discussions and what not so I generally avoid them but with how often this topic keeps getting bumped to the front page, I can't help but click and lurk. So when I saw the statement I couldn't help but ask since it felt very direct. I don't know any of those youtubers. |
CherryLover said: And perhaps this is a point we might be able to agree on. I like and prefer the characters with layers, depth, and dimensions that make them more than the token slice of archetype fun. Characters such as Juliet (Romeo x Juliet), Yona (Akatsuki no Yona), Shirayuki (Akagami no Shirayuki-hime), Sora Naegino (Kaleido Star), Balsa (Seirei no Moribito), Amu Hinamori (Shugo Chara) and Kyouko from Skip Beat. I'll actually stand with you by saying that only wanting moe, cutesy waifu characters is asinine and preposterous. Ratohnhaketon said: The lens in which we view anime is vastly different then because I don't equate misrepresentation to disrespect. While the main appeal for moe characters can be their cuteness, I rarely find that to be their sole defining trait. Often times they become endearing to me through their experiences and interactions with other characters. My favorite example of this is Nagisa from Clannad. She receives great criticism as being nothing more than a fantasy for men who want a submissive, weak willed, obedient pet. What I see, however, is someone who does the best she can to live strongly, doesn't let her circumstances bring her down, and shows unparalleled compassion that both men and women can learn from. When you have an obsession with a certain agenda, you'll be able to see it everywhere even above the realm of reason. Those examples are few and far between, I'm afraid. Most moe characters I have encountered simply are their for the sake of their cuteness, and nothing more. The problem lying with the "misrepresentation" I speak of are these examples of moe girls that have no depth or display decent traits you'd see in real women. When moe characters are just moe for the sake of being moe, it is pandering to the male audience. All I am arguing for is accurate portrayal. All I propose is that there's nothing wrong with wanting the best of both worlds. I shouldn't have to worry about the Gestapo breathing down my neck the next time I want to watch iDOLM@STER or Love Live (for many of the same reasons I watch Uta Pri, I might add). |
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MindForged said: I don't pay attention to it much anymore, myself. It seems to be mostly pandering (e.g "Look at this stupid feminist, haha!") And to be frank, to doesn't seem to do anything at all. I think we're going to get along quite well. |
| I didn't thought this could get more cancerigenous, but (not) surprisingly, it got. Sasuga, MAL. |
IllyricusSep 16, 2016 3:23 AM
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Illyricus said: More likeI didn't thought this could get more cancerigenous, but (not) surprising, it got. Sasuga, MAL. Expecting Re:zero last episode salt, but cherry surprise us with this thread even before that. Sasuga Cherry. <3 |
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| Once we start seeing (comedy) scenes of girls getting repeatedly stomped on in their ovaries as they get verbally berated and put in their (rightful, pathetic) place (preferably the fetal position at a man's feet writhing in pain), then we can start a conversation about anime being "misogynistic". |
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| I left this thread (because I need to sleep sometimes), and when I return, it's 4 pages longer. ^^' @Faederwulf I find your authoritarian vision of the ideal society to be unsustainable. In the 21st century, chaos, change and future shock are the thing. Trying to shoehorn people into your notions of structured society, masculinity and femininity will just not work. I also find it disagreeable. As for wikis, I did not quote RationalWiki as the ultimate word of truth. I'm just a meek/diplomatic individual who doesn't like to hurl abuse at people. That's why I just linked to an article that if full of abuse instead. CherryLover said: Seidou_Takizawa said: @CherryLover If people can differentiate fiction from reality then why should the author be censored? He/she has the right to portray a character in a way he/she sees fitting the story. It's not harming anyone. Erm, I don't know. By actually writing a realistic female character? One that isn't based off the fantasy of the dominant demographic, perhaps? Or is that too much to ask? The problem is, YES, this is too much to ask. 1) Author usually isn't very different from the intended demographic. (Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun is probably a joke) Having more female authors write for the male or general audience would be a big boon to the characterization of female characters. 2) Authors aren't telepathic and/or omniscient. They don't actually know what real people (apart from themselves) are like. Any idea of what people who are not like you are really like, is at best a crude model. You might want to read up on japanese national character to get an understanding of how hard it is to understand other people. Note that these ideas about national character might be badly wrong. Also note that it took a bunch of specialists quite some time to assemble that model! Probably the best way for a male author to get realistic females is to write them as males, and just replace the looks and the gender they're attracted to. Note that this will not really result in realistic females, but at least the males will like her, because she is relatable. Also, it's always refreshing to see female characters with male sex drive. 3) In fact, most anime/manga/LN authors aren't even wise and experienced. They are generally young, and went doing that after school or university. And they were the kind of people to read/watch anime/manga/LN instead of getting to know everybody in the first place. 4) In my experience, women usually play up their mysteriousness, giving a lot of males very weird ideas about what they are really like. It's easy to find a rant on internet on what a woman experiences in life. It's a lot harder to find out what drives them, and what restrictions they place on themselves. 5) Realistic people aren't very fun. They live most of their lives without killing each other, they don't have much romance, they aren't very cute. Concentrating interesting things naturally leads to characters seeming less reasonable. Story-driven anime are more likely to have realistic characters, while character-driven anime are usually about rather unreasonable people. Zanzegan said: #triggered Using Matou Zouken as an avatar. Eww. Kill him with fire. And make sure no part of him escapes. Chiibi said: Zilf said: But not in the same way(or least most of time). OH HOOOOOOH YES, IT'S THE EXACT SAME WAY. Do I need to start posting pictures that show this now? XD cause I can do that. I would appreciate that. At the very least, it can become a fun page to link to. |
CherryLover said: @jal90: http://www.vawnet.org/sexual-violence/print-document.php?doc_id=418&find_type=web_desc_AR Some issues aside with the writing of this article (there are some studies that deny the correlation between pornography and aggressive sexual behaviours... but hey, their methods and statistical approach were insufficient! We don't say why! Let's talk instead about how this other text using specific examples has a bigger statistic value!), I don't think it is a very good source to back your statements. The text itself is inconclusive, that is, it invites to further investigate the relation between pornography and aggressive sex, which I can always agree on but come on. And I can see why, because conducting proper experiments that use pornography in order to determine their effect on behaviour is very difficult, but if such experiments are not available then why should any conclusion be inferred? I'd say that the text is speculation at most. Nothing wrong with speculation, but hardly something one could use in an argument and specially to justify an extreme position like yours. Even the text talks about predisposition at one point (which is as well difficult to prove) to make the case clear that the causal relationship is not yet proved and we are probably far from demonstrating it. In short, good to set a debate that is probably necessary, but it doesn't really bring anything of substance to drive it in one way or the other. |
Xillya- said: The Heavens Feel salt can be feel in the air...Illyricus said: More likeI didn't thought this could get more cancerigenous, but (not) surprising, it got. Sasuga, MAL. Expecting Re:zero last episode salt, but cherry surprise us with this thread even before that. Sasuga Cherry. <3 |
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Cloud3514 said: I think I'm going to ignore the above nonsense and just give my two cents on the subject at hand. Is moe misogynistic? Not inherently. And if you actually read the article in question, you would see that the commentary is less on moe shows and more on the community and fandom around them, but I digress as my commentary here is more meant to be about moe as a subject than the article. The problems, I think, are a cycle. The article quotes a book about moe and I want to point out a few of the quotations: "[Being young] makes them vulnerable, which inspires us to protect and nurture them. The character needs support, love, or care, even if she is strong and independent. If she is not at all vulnerable, then she can live on her own. It would be hard to approach such a perfect being." -Honda Toru, author and cultural critic This quote should raise an eyebrow. According to this statement, the girls that are described as "moe" are seen in this person's view more as vulnerable things to be protected, not as people with their own lives and desires. “Because that is when girls are the cutest. They are innocent, pure, and sincere. They don’t strategize and play games with people.” -Ito Noizo, illustrator and adult game character designer This (incredibly creepy) statement suggests that Ito sees other women as manipulative and dishonest. The fact that Ito herself is a woman is irrelevant and only shows that misogynistic views are not exclusive to men. Both of these quotes suggest that moe fans, or at least the stereotypical moe fan, are scared of women that have their own agency out of fear of not having control or losing them. This worldview is incredibly uncomfortable and I'm saying that as a man who, as such, will probably never have to deal with another person treating him like this. The problem, as I see it, is less about moe characters as they're written, which is where my biggest area of disagreement with the article is, and more with the fandom around it. But why do I call it a cycle? If I had to guess where the modern roots for moe lay, I would say that it largely started with the success of Haruhi Suzumiya. While I personally don't think it really fits in with the usual description of "moe" for various reasons, I do think it is vital in the popularizing of shows like Lucky Star or K-On!. No, it is not the only reason, but I do think it is what showed the business side of production that marketing cute girls was a viable way to make money. With the popularity of a show's cute girls, the executives will make shows designed to appeal to what made the last show's cute girls popular, which causes the new show's cute girls to become popular, which leads to the executives to making a show to appeal to what made the last show's cute girls popular and so on and so forth. That good shows come out of this cycle kind of amazes me. My criticism toward moe as a concept is based on how moe shows have a tendency to perpetuate this cycle, which appeals to worldviews like the ones quoted above. Now, what makes those quotes misogynistic? Gee, I dunno, maybe it's because they seem think women should be passive and submissive, as opposed to, you know, PEOPLE. Cultural note: apparently, for Japanese, a man "protecting" a woman means romantic affection. Or something like that. Personal opinion: I fail to see why a person cannot be protected while allowing him/her to develop in his/her own direction. That's what any parent should do, isn't it? Personal opinion 2: Yes, losing another person, being manipulated and not being in control of the situation is scary. Especially since it's obvious (to a man) that the woman has major leverage over him, because she is sexually attractive. It's easy for a woman to hurt a man before any relationship has even begun! It's a fear one has to face if one wants a healthy relationship, but there is no reason to assume it is easy. Minor nitpick: There were moe shows before Suzumiya Haruhi. For example, Ichigo Mashimaro is extremely moe for the sake of being moe. It's K-ON that is usually credited for the breakthrough. CherryLover said: Chiibi said: What I find amusing is no matter how much people cry "MISOGYNIST!!" at anime, you don't live there so there's nothing you can f*cking do about this so-called "issue". Pointless and a waste of time to keep bitching, really. What possible good could this do? Japanese studios that make moe aren't gonna come on MAL and go "IKENAI!! MONDAI DA!! ANIME WO HAYAKU KAWARE!" So just silence the minority opinion because it won't "accomplish anything?" Who's censoring whom now? As a consumer of the medium, I will express my grievances with it. There's small wonder why anime is a niche here in the West: because many (and rightfully so) perceive the medium as cringy. Maybe less objectification could help make the industry bigger... But what I do I know? I'm just a feminazi on the Internet, right? As a fan of the medium, I do not want it to "sell out" like that. Gaining popularity at the cost of losing what made the genre unique and appealing to the current fans is not good. Speaking of buzzwords, what you are suggested is called "cultural imperialism", I think. Even if I would like anime to treat women better, it should not try to appease the West, it should think on its own. CherryLover said: Surely it would be problematic if your kid and/or S.O. had these views, no? Looking to fantasies for gratification gives males an inherent predilection for apathy for woman in general. Isn't apathy for women (as opposed to the usual state of lust) the desirable state? hoopla123 said: If you argue that way, so can I. How about the males in male audience focused harem shows? Look at Ichika from Infinite Stratos. Depicts all men as dense dumb motherfuckers despite the fact that it is a SHOW FOR A MALE AUDIENCE. How about Rito from To Love Ru? He is literally the biggest pervert in the entire 2D verse. He pulls off bras and panties like they are nothing, depicting all men as sexual deviants. How about Kurosawa from Onani Master Kurosawa? Scumbag pervert that jacks off to women's belongings. Another depiction of how horrible males are despite it BEING A SHOW TARGETED AT A MALE AUDIENCE. Well would you look at that, "Even then you can attribute that to a poor representation of men." Same shit eh? You know what misandry/misogyny is? It's assuming that a single protagonist of a show represents the entire male/female population. We aren't all the same, damnit! For example, while dumb but hardworking men like Ichika exist, I'm of the the "brilliant but lazy" kind (you've seen characters like this too, I am sure). Emnschweiz said: hoopla123 said: No, it's not really the same honestly. Well would you look at that, "Even then you can attribute that to a poor representation of men." Same shit eh? These characters are simply self-insert characters. They're bare bones shit-tier because they only exist so the audience can have a view point to see women fawn over these characters. These protagonist characters aren't depicted like you say they are. Even though that is what they are, that's not how they're shown to the audience. These characters are never giving a monologue talking about how terrible they're treating all these women, or how they're so damn stupid. They just keep on keeping on like they're not doing shit wrong. [faulty reasoning]Exactly. They represent these people as if they were normal, brainwashing the next generation into becoming just like them. These characters never notice their flaws, existing in the viewer's blind spot and affecting them subconsciously! [/faulty reasoning] CherryLover said: Spooky_E said: ofcouse there's nothing to compare, free is objectifies male while KonoSuba is a fun show parody fantasy world. ...and utilizes insults towards women for a majority of its humor. Did you meant to say "gives women 'comic relief' roles usually reserved for men"? There is no end to male perverts that are pretty much the same as Darkness, for example. |
flannanSep 16, 2016 4:56 AM
| 1. There is a legitimate discussion to be made on how fiction can have an impact on your views about real life things, but I don't think anime, and moe in the case of this discussion, should be held to the same standards as other media. a. Anime, actually all animation in general, is by deliberate design made to exaggerate, distort, and fantasize elements, ideas and concepts we find in real life, this can range from things about the natural world such as physics, chemistry, and unrealistic settings to things about the mind such as character personalities, reactions, quirks, oddities, and behavior. b. It makes even less sense to criticize supposedly unrealistic representation of one gender or another in a work which belongs in the comedy genre or one in which comedy is one of it's selling points, seeing as how the comedy genre in general uses exaggeration or unrealistic things to provoke a reaction from the audience. Not every character or gender needs to be accurately or respectfully depicted realistically to be good. c. Most discussion is made about how children and adolescents are affected by the media they consume, but the vast majority of moe-centric media are targeted at men who are of the age where they attend college and most already have a developed idea on what reality is like, the majority of people who consume these works see them as a way to indulge in escapism and a fantasy to escape the pessimism of reality 2. There is not a universally accepted definition of what "Moe" is. a. If we refer to the basic Wikipedia definition of Moe, then it's a subjective feeling of affection that the viewer holds towards a character, it doesn't define exactly how the source of that feelings originates. It can be done through simple art style and character design, cute and childish behavior, a pure, weak, and frail image as one source quoted here says but which should not be used as a rule to stereotype what all Moe is like. b. refer to works such Clannad, Suzumiya Haruhi, K-On, Nichijou, Gochiusa, Toradora, Non-Non Biyori, Grisaia, Aria, etc to see the many different ways in which the moe trope is utilized. |
| Fapping on a moe/loli? Is it even possible? |
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