| Harem is already a good genre, otherwise, it wouldn't be a staple genre in most manga magazines (there's usually at least one harem/romcom in every magazine). Obviously, it doesn't get as much attention as something like battle shounen because harem has a relatively smaller audience, due to merchandising/smaller target demographic/general snobbery towards the genre(especially in the west). Tropes don't matter if the story has heart, memorable and well-developed characters that the audience can either relate to or fawn over. Basically, if it achieves no.4 on your list the other 3 really don't matter, you might not personally like what you've described in these points but they're more or less the tried and true harem formula that attracts and relates to the most audience and milks the story in the most efficient way. Especially when it comes to dating/dense/assertiveness, one of the most important points that keep people watching harem is who the mc ends up choosing |
| Then I recommend Shinmai Maou light novel to you, because the LN actually has a true harem ending, where by the end of the story he has 8 wives and they are all pregnant. And of course he is not dense, and he develops the relationship with his harem over time, so it's not like he doesn't realize their feelings. |
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MadanielFL said: Then I recommend Shinmai Maou light novel to you, because the LN actually has a true harem ending, where by the end of the story he has 8 wives and they are all pregnant. And of course he is not dense, and he develops the relationship with his harem over time, so it's not like he doesn't realize their feelings. True sigma right there. Now I gotta read that lmao |
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| I've never watched Harem, and I don't think I will anytime soon. But I think the main things that would make it good is simply giving characters personalities, yes this includes the MC. and give the characters reasons why they are into the MC. Also, perhaps add a twist, to give it some uniqueness. Anyways, that's just my opinion. |
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| Points 1-3 basically boils down to personal taste. A lot of people watch harem because of the situations the MC finds themselves in with all the girls until he decides which one he truly wants, sometimes being an obvious decision. He being assertive or dense is a common complaint, but it doesn't seem to bother harem fans that much, and anyway there's plenty harem with MCs like that as well. As for 4, most harem fans will probably say that is imperative that all girls have good development and personality for it to be enjoyable. Sure, there are some like Monster Musume where the girls are basically empty vessels for channelling depravity, but most at least seem to try to give them unique traits. |
TheAngryNerd said: Well that's great lol :)MadanielFL said: Then I recommend Shinmai Maou light novel to you, because the LN actually has a true harem ending, where by the end of the story he has 8 wives and they are all pregnant. And of course he is not dense, and he develops the relationship with his harem over time, so it's not like he doesn't realize their feelings. True sigma right there. Now I gotta read that lmao False_Entity said: Yeah its really worth a read, the best part about the novels are the illustrations. MadanielFL said: Then I recommend Shinmai Maou light novel to you, because the LN actually has a true harem ending, where by the end of the story he has 8 wives and they are all pregnant. And of course he is not dense, and he develops the relationship with his harem over time, so it's not like he doesn't realize their feelings. I was considering reading Shinmai Maou but after the way you describe it I gotta go read it TODAY It's honestly incredible how they were able to have these illustrations on a non-hentai novel in a major publisher. |
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| I agree with some points, but it would be boring if all series follow the same methods. Glad you did not say to make the Mc bishounen. Lol |
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| I agree with your point as long as we are talking about a harem with no ecchi. Otherwise, all your suggestions have no reason of existance since: 1. Who cares about the mc on a harem a show that is focused around GIRLS 2. Who cares about character development of any character especially when that character development would take valuable time of girls doing sexy things. @Chaos16 |
Giorgosman13Jun 3, 2022 12:16 PM
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| are these the important consequences of having a harem? |
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MadanielFL said: Yeah its really worth a read, the best part about the novels are the illustrations. It's honestly incredible how they were able to have these illustrations on a non-hentai novel in a major publisher. WOAH NOW I DEFINITELY GOTTA GO READ IT Thanks! |
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| I disagree with all points except for #4. But, it's kind of a no-brainer. Pretty sure all harem anime at least try to make the girls different and likeable. Also, character development/characterization/personality all mean the exact same thing so it's a bit redundant to pretend otherwise. I especially disagree with #1. It's already hard enough to suspend my disbelief that a bunch of girls would go after the same guy simultaneously but for them to also agree to share him? Not only is it unbelievable, it makes me like the characters a whole lot less. I cannot respect someone who has no respect for themselves. |
epidemia78Jun 3, 2022 2:44 PM
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| 1. This probably wouldn't change anything meaningful in terms of cast dynamic. Pointless window dressing that's more useful in trying to make the show sound distinct than actually distinguishing itself. Don't care. 2. Who gives a shit about the MC? 3. Who gives a shit about the MC? 4. This isn't uncommon in well-received harems. Most of them just don't emphasize character progression as much as personality and stuff to emphasize existing appeal. Which, frankly, better suits the genre's fundamental selling point. I don't think people watch these shows to see characters change and grow over time or to get something explorative as much as to see fun, attractive characters doing fun, attractive things. tl;dr- lmao no |
ManabanJun 3, 2022 3:57 PM
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| Does Quintessential quintuplets count since all the girls are family so they're going to support one another anyway and it can basically be an incestuous polygamy relationship but with the one guy? Although ultimately he chooses and ends up marrying just one anyway and most of these harem end up being where the guy chooses just one in the end. Otherwise, the appeal of the harem is the fantasy of all these girls liking you but with no real commitment. What you're proposing is for some real life hardships of relationships, especially a poly where everyone has to keep everyone happy or at least support and be there for one another emotionally/sexually/loving/financially. But tbh, I usually enjoy harem, but Quintessential quintuplets sort of annoyed me the most, because how can 5 girls, sisters at that, all like one guy. Harem is ridiculous as is and this is beyond ridiculous, even for me. I also saw the ending in the manga and the end choice was the worst one. |
I do. The MC is kind of important, he is most on screen after all. How the male lead handles a harem, that's ultimately a situational comedy than an actual character driven romance, can be interesting. World's end harem had good character writing you know. |
| The only true good harem is “the world god only knows” and “mushoku tensei” in my opinion. No one can tell me otherwise. |
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| 1. No need to do that, the genre is just 3 or more girls falling in love with the same guy, no need to make it an actual polygamy. Actually, I'm sure some people watch harem because they want to know with who the MC will end up with. 2. That's just for your taste, it is already good as it is, it's not as if there weren't series like that already. 3. That's just for your taste, it is already good as it is, it's not as if there weren't series like that already x2. 4. This one is kinda obvious, I also hate when the heroines doesn't have anything else beyond fawning all over the MC and/or being submissive af and only "eye candy", however most good harems have a nice cast of girls, so what's the problem with this again? |
JaniSIr said: I do. The MC is kind of important, he is most on screen after all. How the male lead handles a harem, that's ultimately a situational comedy than an actual character driven romance, can be interesting. World's end harem had good character writing you know. How the dude interacts with his harem is a matter of establishing a cast dynamic. This is different than sitting there and establishing and showcasing specific aspects of his personality to prove some kind of point to people who dislike the genre in the first place - and, moreover, it takes focus away from the main draw and key distinguishing element of the genre, being the fucking harem, all to focus on the protagonist in a traditional role prevalent in almost every other genre. These shows already tend to have fundamental issues with screen time distribution, the fucking last thing they need is some dude sinking his teeth into that fragile balance just to try to look cool or some shit. This is what OP is pushing for. This is stupid. If you want to watch a story about a dude, that focuses on fleshing out the dude, and is all about that dude as a protagonist, go look at literally any other genre. This isn't- and very much shouldn't be - the place for that. These series aren't about appealing to the audience through allowing them to watch some dude. He typically is, and should be, a stagehand to show off the girls. So no. The MC doesn't matter that much, and your personal take here isn't worth anything. Unless you're being coy with me and your real endgoal is to watch some other dude get a bunch of chicks or something, at which point just go watch netorare. |
ManabanJun 3, 2022 6:26 PM
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epidemia78 said: I especially disagree with #1. It's already hard enough to suspend my disbelief that a bunch of girls would go after the same guy simultaneously but for them to also agree to share him? Not only is it unbelievable, it makes me like the characters a whole lot less. I cannot respect someone who has no respect for themselves. Then you'd hate The Eden of Grisaia, if what I heard is true. I never got that far, since I hate Grisaia's edgy drama. The comedy is top notch, however, and there's a chance you'd enjoy The Fruit of Grisaia. Also, I'm reminded of that alternate universe episode of Urusei Yatsura in which Ataru lives with his entire harem. I wonder if the remake will include this? |
| その目だれの目？ |
| "MC Actually dates the girls in his harem so basically make it polygamy." i hate to break it to ya but if the MC doesn't date multiple girls then the harem tag shouldn't even apply pretty cursed when something is falsely labeled harem but mc only goes after 1 person - i really hate that |
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DoisacChopper said: pretty cursed when something is falsely labeled harem but mc only goes after 1 person - i really hate that That never ceases to annoy me. https://myanimelist.net/anime/957/Saiunkoku_Monogatari Great anime, but not even remotely a harem. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: epidemia78 said: I especially disagree with #1. It's already hard enough to suspend my disbelief that a bunch of girls would go after the same guy simultaneously but for them to also agree to share him? Not only is it unbelievable, it makes me like the characters a whole lot less. I cannot respect someone who has no respect for themselves. Then you'd hate The Eden of Grisaia, if what I heard is true. I never got that far, since I hate Grisaia's edgy drama. The comedy is top notch, however, and there's a chance you'd enjoy The Fruit of Grisaia. Also, I'm reminded of that alternate universe episode of Urusei Yatsura in which Ataru lives with his entire harem. I wonder if the remake will include this? yeah, you're probably right. I've heard good things about Grisaia but the anime seemed super-rushed which is to be expected from a 12 episode VN adaptation so I tried the source material instead... but it was...well, a little too lewd for my tastes. |
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| The only thing that can make the genre better is getting more and more adaptations quicker and more ass n tiddy uncensored when airing. |
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Chaos16 said: What's the point of watching a show if u don't give shit about the mc that's stupid af then go play visual novels if u just wanna watch a show with cute girls just open Google images there's alot of cute girls there at the end ur just fighting over handrawn thing's so give irl more thoughts than this sht I think someone mentioned me here Harems are shows that focus on the GIRLS the FEMALE characters of the show. Wanting the male character to be focused on in the show is like expecting a female character from a shonen to be useful. The girls are the main characters in harems the guy is just there to get all the girls together and initiate hot situations. You cant go around and ask for character development for the male character since it has no use in the genre. |
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Manaban said: How the dude interacts with his harem is a matter of establishing a cast dynamic. This is different than sitting there and establishing and showcasing specific aspects of his personality to prove some kind of point to people who dislike the genre in the first place - and, moreover, it takes focus away from the main draw and key distinguishing element of the genre, being the fucking harem, all to focus on the protagonist in a traditional role prevalent in almost every other genre. These shows already tend to have fundamental issues with screen time distribution, the fucking last thing they need is some dude sinking his teeth into that fragile balance just to try to look cool or some shit. This is what OP is pushing for. This is stupid. That's kind of why harem girls are dime a dozen, and treating the harem as a "situation" for the protagonist to deal with would be much more interesting. Manaban said: If you want to watch a story about a dude, that focuses on fleshing out the dude, and is all about that dude as a protagonist, go look at literally any other genre. This isn't- and very much shouldn't be - the place for that. These series aren't about appealing to the audience through allowing them to watch some dude. He typically is, and should be, a stagehand to show off the girls. Well, if you want girls, go look at any other genre, where they are treated as precious individuals, instead of mere harem members. Manaban said: So no. The MC doesn't matter that much, and your personal take here isn't worth anything. Unless you're being coy with me and your real endgoal is to watch some other dude get a bunch of chicks or something, at which point just go watch netorare. Ye, well, MAYBE I WILL. |
JaniSIr said: Manaban said: If you want to watch a story about a dude, that focuses on fleshing out the dude, and is all about that dude as a protagonist, go look at literally any other genre. This isn't- and very much shouldn't be - the place for that. These series aren't about appealing to the audience through allowing them to watch some dude. He typically is, and should be, a stagehand to show off the girls. Well, if you want girls, go look at any other genre, where they are treated as precious individuals, instead of mere harem members. Them being in a harem doesnt mean their value is less as characters, quite the opossite of it. They are in a harem series so they should be the main focus of the series. How is looking for girls in a harem wrong.  |
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Giorgosman13 said: JaniSIr said: Well, if you want girls, go look at any other genre, where they are treated as precious individuals, instead of mere harem members. Them being in a harem doesnt mean their value is less as characters, quite the opossite of it. They are in a harem series so they should be the main focus of the series. How is looking for girls in a harem wrong. But there is like 10 of them, given screen time that's maybe enough to develop 2. And developing characters and their relationships through their struggles in an external plot is kind of free, and frequently feels more natural than the author specifically trying to scratch a particular emotional itch. |
JaniSIr said: That's kind of why harem girls are dime a dozen I don't think harems or the characters within are a dime a dozen at all, and I think that people who discuss them in that way have a reliance on being reductive and over-simplifying things. JaniSIr said: and treating the harem as a "situation" for the protagonist to deal with would be much more interesting. Just go watch a different genre, for fuck's sake. Stop trying to take what makes ours distinct, force it to conform to traditional/mainstream standards regarding what's seen as acceptable or quality, then treating that conformity as an "interesting distinction." It's not going to make it more interesting to do that. It's going to make it the fucking same as any other type of entertainment you can find, just with an H&E window dressing rather than being one at H&E core. You are literally pushing for ripping the sort of things that distinguish it from anything you can find anywhere else *out* and replacing them with the norm, i.e. a protagonist-centered narrative exploring a conflict of some sort. @Giorgosman13 I told you, man. These outsiders eat shit like "the consequences of having a harem" up. They don't see or understand how ridiculous it sounds, and sit here and spew this shit out like they're some lit crit geniuses. It's pretentious forum-goer bullshit. Let this be known to everyone if they ask why my first reaction to chaos saying stuff like that was to bully him. JaniSIr said: Well, if you want girls, go look at any other genre, where they are treated as precious individuals, instead of mere harem members. Again - I don't think these series tend to do that. I think that it's become so widely accepted to be incredibly reductive to these shows and characters when outsiders talk about them that stuff like this has just become accepted as being the case with little question or not enough challenge. It's the way an intersubjective consensus is formed by idiots. Get away from me, freak. |
ManabanJun 4, 2022 2:50 PM
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Manaban said: I don't think harems or the characters within are a dime a dozen at all, and I think that people who discuss them in that way have a reliance on being reductive and over-simplifying things. But like most of the shows do just cycle through the girls, only to be forgotten about later on. Like High school DxD had 1 sad backstory for everyone, and then only Rias was plot relevant after a while from the old cast, the rest just showed up to be naked occasionally. Date A Live did dirty some of the earlier girls too. Yosuga no Sora literally just reset the time line after each girl. So yea... Manaban said: Just go watch a different genre, for fuck's sake. Stop trying to take what makes ours distinct, force it to conform to traditional/mainstream standards regarding what's seen as acceptable or quality, then treating that conformity as an "interesting distinction." Kind of hard, wanted to watch some economy isekai in Realist Hero, and then the guy suddenly has 8 wives, but he can't talk to girls Manaban said: It's not going to make it more interesting to do that. It's going to make it the fucking same as any other type of entertainment you can find, just with an H&E window dressing rather than being one at H&E core. You are literally pushing for ripping the sort of things that distinguish it from anything you can find anywhere else *out* and replacing them with the norm, i.e. a protagonist-centered narrative exploring a conflict of some sort. It's so weird that you are against having a decent protagonist, or a plot... Manaban said: Again - I don't think these series tend to do that. I think that it's become so widely accepted to be incredibly reductive to these shows and characters when outsiders talk about them that stuff like this has just become accepted as being the case with little question or not enough challenge. It's the way an intersubjective consensus is formed by idiots. Ye, well, my favorite harem girl, is Bakarina, except it's a reverse harem, with a plot, and she is the protagonist...  I still don't get why those 3 letters make everyone so upset... |
JaniSIr said: Manaban said: I don't think harems or the characters within are a dime a dozen at all, and I think that people who discuss them in that way have a reliance on being reductive and over-simplifying things. But like most of the shows do just cycle through the girls, only to be forgotten about later on. Like High school DxD had 1 sad backstory for everyone, and then only Rias was plot relevant after a while from the old cast, the rest just showed up to be naked occasionally. Date A Live did dirty some of the earlier girls too. Yosuga no Sora literally just reset the time line after each girl. So yea... I dislike DxD and DAL, and I don't think either of them are very good examples from the genre to work with if we're discussing good series using an H&E framework. DxD for being overly conservative, conformist trite, and DAL being sterile and void of interest. I'd say YnS has an excellent cast of characters, though, but I think the structure it uses, the themes it broaches and explores, and the fundamentally different approach it has to character writing relative to most other series period makes it hard to compare to other works in the genre. When I think of H&E with strong casts, I think of To LOVE-Ru, Kiss x Sis, Yuragi-sou no Yuuna-san, etc. These series don't have particularly complex characters, but complexity isn't mutually inclusive to engagement and investment. Memorable, fun characters are the way to go. Kind of hard, wanted to watch some economy isekai in Realist Hero, and then the guy suddenly has 8 wives, but he can't talk to girls Not hard at all. I wish we were this all-encompassing in the medium, but we're not even the most talked about kinds of shows these days. One example- or multiple examples - of accidentally stumbling across harem content in non-harem series doesn't change that we're a minority in terms of overall content. It's so weird that you are against having a decent protagonist, or a plot... Because these things aren't universal standards. I don't think they tend to benefit the specific genre we're talking about much at all, and I think that people who try to impress these standards onto the genre tend to treat them as universal necessities rather than understanding that different types of series prioritize the importance of fundamental components differently - and that prioritizing the wrong ones just gets in the way instead of being a different type of "good" much more often than not. |
ManabanJun 4, 2022 4:40 PM
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Manaban said: I'd say YnS has an excellent cast of characters, though, but I think the structure it uses, the themes it broaches and explores, and the fundamentally different approach it has to character writing relative to most other series period makes it hard to compare to other works in the genre. Because these things aren't universal standards. I don't think they tend to benefit the specific genre we're talking about much at all, and I think that people who try to impress these standards onto the genre tend to treat them as universal necessities rather than understanding that different types of series prioritize the importance of fundamental components differently - and that prioritizing the wrong ones just gets in the way instead of being a different type of "good" much more often than not. Yosuga no Sora is more of a short romance story collection than a real harem anyway, so I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned it to begin with. Quite annoyingly that's actually a pretty good show. Also I actually like many wacky shows. But My next life as a villainess, Redo of Healer, and World's end harem were elevated above the rest of the harems I watched specifically because they were plot focused with a distinct protagonist. And all your good harem examples are stuff I didn't watch, so ye... |
JaniSIr said: Also I actually like many wacky shows. But My next life as a villainess, Redo of Healer, and World's end harem were elevated above the rest of the harems I watched specifically because they were plot focused with a distinct protagonist. Then go look at other genres. You'll find more stuff like that there than here. We gain nothing from this kind of conformity other than the loss of genre identity. You're wanting to pawn off the shit that makes it distinct and the key points of appeal for something that falls more in line with the norm. No, I don't respect that. No, I *won't* respect that, either. Unless your endgoal is to just waste everybody's fucking time reiterating your ultra-rigid idea of universal priorities every series should bow down to, then there isn't any point in continuing to tell me that. I hate your opinion. I hate it for what it is. I hate what it represents. And, most of all, I think we shouldn't even let people like you have a say in the conversation. You're not changing my mind on that either, sweetie. It's these types of fundamental divergences in priorities that are the building blocks for entire genres to create an identity to separate themselves from other types of entertainment. Ripping that out to encourage focusing on a single set of priorities to be seen as a universal is just being closed-minded in the context of wanting stuff to cater to your own rigid sensibilities, and destructive criticism if you take it out of an individual, subjective context. I find both to be completely and utterly void of any value whatsoever, and the types of people who think this way can typically can be judged in the same way. ---- This is all a very complex way of saying "I'm not watching harems for the guy, and if you do that, that's fucking weird." |
ManabanJun 5, 2022 6:03 AM
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Manaban said: Then go look at other genres. You'll find more stuff like that there than here. We gain nothing from this kind of conformity other than the loss of genre identity. You're wanting to pawn off the shit that makes it distinct and the key points of appeal for something that falls more in line with the norm. No, I don't respect that. No, I *won't* respect that, either. Unless your endgoal is to just waste everybody's fucking time reiterating your ultra-rigid idea of universal priorities every series should bow down to, then there isn't any point in continuing to tell me that. I hate your opinion. I hate it for what it is. I hate what it represents. And, most of all, I think we shouldn't even let people like you have a say in the conversation. You're not changing my mind on that either, sweetie. It's these types of fundamental divergences in priorities that are the building blocks for entire genres to create an identity to separate themselves from other types of entertainment. Ripping that out to encourage focusing on a single set of priorities to be seen as a universal is just being closed-minded in the context of wanting stuff to cater to your own rigid sensibilities, and destructive criticism if you take it out of an individual, subjective context. I find both to be completely and utterly void of any value whatsoever, and the types of people who think this way can typically can be judged in the same way. Well, this quickly turned into a fight against normies or something, and not an actual defense of the genre... Manaban said: This is all a very complex way of saying "I'm not watching harems for the guy, and if you do that, that's fucking weird." You said it, not me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
JaniSIr said: Well, this quickly turned into a fight against normies or something, and not an actual defense of the genre... I didn't think I was defending. I'm pretty sure I spent most of this conversation attacking your ideas. JaniSIr said: You said it, not me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And I'll say it again and again and again because the opposing view is completely ridiculous when you put it into the context of working with H&E specifically. |
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Manaban said: JaniSIr said: Well, this quickly turned into a fight against normies or something, and not an actual defense of the genre... I didn't think I was defending. I'm pretty sure I spent most of this conversation attacking your ideas. JaniSIr said: You said it, not me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And I'll say it again and again and again because the opposing view is completely ridiculous when you put it into the context of working with H&E specifically. Kind of the same thing... And basically all we discussed is that you think that harem animes don't need plot nor a likeable main character, because it has girls, except I argued that this formula is not even good for that. |
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