| bruh let this thread die please its been 3 years |
inameganeFeb 23, 2023 8:55 PM
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| Because starting out shit and becoming good later on is the most basic character development |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
| Here's a fact that might blow your mind... Someone somewhere out there on the internet, really find those "cool" protagonists that you mentioned pretentious. The world is full of surprises, I know! |
  ブレ ブレ ブレブレ |
| Well because an average weeb is not someone 'cool'. |
Anime was it's best 20000 years ago, when cavemen drew art with real depth. Modern anime is all garbage. I miss great old days of anime. |
crush_on_Kona said: No Isekai mains don't prove your point in making useless Protagonists. All you did was cherry pick if those examples are even valid slightly Isekai mains prove the point. "Kenja no Mango", "Smartphone isekai",... protagonists are absolutely have no character. Or you going to say these main characters are useless when it comes to the plot of their series          |
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| Midoriya from MHA Bam from Tower of God |
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| I get your point - when it's overdone and they literally don't even bother to improve at all, or the entire series goes by and they're still the same as the beginning and can still barely lift a stick. Same goes for the ever all mighty Heroine - who has no personality at all and doesn't think for herself. I do dislike those characters as well, but I LOVE when someone is weak at the beginning and then slowly tries to built themselves up. Or even when they aren't the strongest later but SHOW that they have courage/want to stick up for themselves etc. Or even when they are considered "cool" but have some dumb qualities ( any kind of flaw tbh like being an idiot, or clumsy, or whatever) I haven't seen any of the series mentioned so I can't chime in too much but - What's wrong with the MC being a coward? What's wrong with them being afraid or needy? I'm honestly very sick and find it SO boring if the MC is cool/perfect from the get go, it is one of the most boring things to watch. Watching the spider in my room build it's web is more entertaining than that. When all the other characters swoon over how *perfect and cool* they are and not having any flaws at all. A character being "perfect" and not showing any weakness/fear/ is lazy and bad writing in my opinion. Having a weakness/flaw/etc makes a good character. |
"You think your power has limits, I say it's limitless." |
| I agree OP, but "cool protagonists" aren't good characters either. |
dc22 said: So none are? Lol. Maybe it just depends on multiple things which I may know or not.I agree OP, but "cool protagonists" aren't good characters either. |
| Should I troll in the troll bait threads? It is kinda idiotic to be logical in the troll bait threads. Well, it will depend on my mood. |
| being useless and being a coward aren't the same thing also "cool" is an extremely subjective word. a protagonist could be a massive coward but in my mind, they could still be cool if they look like Kenpachi from bleach or Pain from naruto |
operationvalkyri said: How does being a coward make you a useless protagonist? What do you mean by a useless protag? Those who don't contribute to the story moving forward? (Which Kraft does.) Or those who are weak compared to other characters in their story (Which Kraft isn't because of his trade expertise.) More of useless but not completely through. I love Kraft performance in light novel. A man of decisiveness, brave, adventurous,... In anime he's good too, but he's more of hesitation and fears oftenly. |
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Damerino said: If they were black the word "useless" would cease to exist. Oppressed by the cis white privileged male? |
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| cool doesn't mean they are good character and coward or useless doesn't mean they are bad character |
Kayle_x_Morgana said: no but i like equality. a lot. way too muchid' say. #ialwayswantblackpeaoplefuckingthosewhitewhores.Damerino said: If they were black the word "useless" would cease to exist. Oppressed by the cis white privileged male? |
| It is interesting to see characters struggle and overcome obstacles without being handed the "victory" by default. Writing capable but struggling characters is hard and as mentioned by Shitaste it might make the character seem like an overpowered and/or pretentious self insert. It is easy to start with eager and spirited but inexperienced protagonist who can gradually become better and better, eventually being able to adapt to unexpected situations - improvising solutions on their own. I personally prefer capable but flawed characters, who have some inner conflict limiting their true potential. |
Kayle_x_Morgana said: Nah, It maybe a Johncena fault. Not because he's white but it's due to his invisibility. Glad/not glad due to less pollution nowadays he seems to somewhat visible.Damerino said: If they were black the word "useless" would cease to exist. Oppressed by the cis white privileged male? |
| Should I troll in the troll bait threads? It is kinda idiotic to be logical in the troll bait threads. Well, it will depend on my mood. |
Deknijff said: crush_on_Kona said: No Isekai mains don't prove your point in making useless Protagonists. All you did was cherry pick if those examples are even valid slightly Isekai mains prove the point. "Kenja no Mango", "Smartphone isekai",... protagonists are absolutely have no character. Or you going to say these main characters are useless when it comes to the plot of their series It's my fault to say things too general. There are a lot of great isekai animes out there. I also especially love "Overlord" and "Konosuba". However bad-isekai is a thing you must have heard of, right ? like NEETs being summoned to another world and build a harem for their own, then go defeating non-developed antagonists for no reason ? |
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Shitaste said: Here's a fact that might blow your mind... Someone somewhere out there on the internet, really find those "cool" protagonists that you mentioned pretentious. The world is full of surprises, I know! If mangaka developes a character appear to be "cool" and turn out to be "pretentious", I would say that a good character development. Lelouch would be good for an example. He was introduced as a hero and then we all knew how much an antagonist he had been. |
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Theo1899 said: Because starting out shit and becoming good later on is the most basic character development Gonna have to agree here. It's just easy to write a character like that. I personally don't like useless protagonists most of the time. Sometimes they can be okay characters that I can tolerate. |
| So that the viewers can relate to them ofc |
| "You misunderstood from the very beginning. You just believed what you wanted to believe." Rei Ayanami |
| Because they are 'supposed' to be relatable to the viewers. |
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cythraul said: Because they are 'supposed' to be relatable to the viewers... ...not self-inserting. Yes they are 'supposed' to be realistic and therefore audience could share few traits with the protagonist. They, however, are not supposed to be undistinguishable. |
| . . . |
Maneki-Mew said: I think the guy from Overlord was as boring as every other generic protagonist. He was and looks just edgier. And Konosuba guy was just more of a pervert and something people wanted to see, who were tired of isekai cliches, but I couldn't find him interesting or likeable either. It's just a parody, although one I couldn't bother with, so... well. Kazuma in Konosuba is a NEET indeed. But in isekai, he stayed his place, still a NEET and nothing hero. But then the storyline went well around him, didn't it ? Because he had a reasonable developed character who deserved to get more of your enjoyment. Momonga (Ainz) in Overlord was not boring at long-run character development. Episodes by episodes, watching him slowly losing humanity was fascinating. In light novel Momonga's inner emotional was imparted in clarity, and in anime it was imparted by hints. |
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Preachee said: cythraul said: Because they are 'supposed' to be relatable to the viewers... ...not self-inserting. Yes they are 'supposed' to be realistic and therefore audience could share few traits with the protagonist. They, however, are not supposed to be undistinguishable. this is what i'm seeking for. so true. |
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| Because some people love them. I feel like it might get boring to just watch smart or charismatic protagonists every time. |
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| Because people who watch anime are useless and pathetic, and they need to be able to self insert themselves into the anime. |
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pacmanyo said: It is interesting to see characters struggle and overcome obstacles without being handed the "victory" by default. Writing capable but struggling characters is hard and as mentioned by Shitaste it might make the character seem like an overpowered and/or pretentious self insert. It is easy to start with eager and spirited but inexperienced protagonist who can gradually become better and better, eventually being able to adapt to unexpected situations - improvising solutions on their own. I personally prefer capable but flawed characters, who have some inner conflict limiting their true potential. Characters who "capable but flawed, who have some inner conflict limiting their true potential" must be protagonists for certain. Setting problems on them means the story must solving it right? They have to be very well developed to be successful. For example, "Okabe Rintarou", "Kyon", "Eward Elric",... These guys took their authors hours to set the inner conflicts, then took a whole storyline solving its. The case is in the other hand, if they weren't developed well, they are failed. Following a non-empathizable character for hours or even more is time wasting isn't it ? |
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| cuz the author is projecting himself and trying to relate to his equally useless readers |
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crush_on_Kona said: pacmanyo said: It is interesting to see characters struggle and overcome obstacles without being handed the "victory" by default. Writing capable but struggling characters is hard and as mentioned by Shitaste it might make the character seem like an overpowered and/or pretentious self insert. It is easy to start with eager and spirited but inexperienced protagonist who can gradually become better and better, eventually being able to adapt to unexpected situations - improvising solutions on their own. I personally prefer capable but flawed characters, who have some inner conflict limiting their true potential. Characters who "capable but flawed, who have some inner conflict limiting their true potential" must be protagonists for certain. Setting problems on them means the story must solving it right? They have to be very well developed to be successful. For example, "Okabe Rintarou", "Kyon", "Eward Elric",... These guys took their authors hours to set the inner conflicts, then took a whole storyline solving its. The case is in the other hand, if they weren't developed well, they are failed. Following a non-empathizable character for hours or even more is time wasting isn't it ? Well of course characters need to be well developed to be good. Hence why I said that it is hard to write such characters and why many authors fall back to time-tested formulas which work. Though not that there is anything wrong with tropes - a well executed trope can be immensely entertaining even if seen dozen of times before. |
Preachee said: cythraul said: Because they are 'supposed' to be relatable to the viewers... ...not self-inserting. Yes they are 'supposed' to be realistic and therefore audience could share few traits with the protagonist. They, however, are not supposed to be undistinguishable. I wholeheartedly agree. That I do empathise with a character, doesn't mean that I want to be in his shoes. Quite the opposite in most cases. |
| You're a louse, Roger Smith. - R. Dorothy Wayneright This is my fight! No Senpai, this is our fight! - Kojou Akatsuki & Yukina Himeragi  |
| Why are there so many useless viewers with useless views of what it means to be 'useless'? Seriously, these completely unreflected, juvenile, black-and-white perspectives on good or realistic characters are some of the stupidest, most toxic takes I see in this community. And I'm not even singling out OP, he just happens to be a perfect example of this edgelord mentality. All these 'hot takes' just make me cringe because they're so fucking tryhard and exclusively use ill-definied buzzwords like 'useless' or 'coward' that mean nothing when examined more closely and in the context of the actual show. Being scared or running away when it's the best choice, does not make a character a coward. It's like any character who experiences emotions or is even remotely cerebral, aware of danger and not a narcissistic egomaniac who solves every problem with violence and a grunt is getting called a pussy and a coward by some socially inept viewer for actually being a functional human being, an actuall well-rounded and well-written character instead of just a cardboard 'badass' trope with the confidence of someone who's aware that he's protected by plot armor. How dare they possess a modicum of intelligence that makes them treat danger as a real thing and not just a joke, how dare they be aware of the fact that fear and doubt and self-awareness and realism are very important tools in survival strategies and just life in general? Making use of them is only reasonable and actually adds a lot more depth and variety and emotional range and general options to the writing of a show, as opposed to the numb-minded muscleheaded, emotionless, sociopathic main characters that people like OP seem to want. I'm 100% convinced that every protagonist people call useless is 100 times more useful than the people who complain about them would ever be in the same situation. But I bett all of them have these completely twisted self-perceptions as badasses who would get in there and FUCK in Lawrence's or Subaru's place. In reality they would probably piss their pants and show us what it would look like if an actual coward or pussy were in their shoes - very differently than what we actually get in those anime. Honestly, Lawrence and Subaru are about the dumbest examples for this already dumb point that you could have thought up. Congratulations, all credibility has been lost just because of that alone. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| i have a feeling that the people who complain about this are the first ones to call shinji a coward because they'd not think twice about jumping in an evangelion unit to enjoy laying waste to the world |
| the official MAL hall of fame/cursed comments is now open for business - you are welcome to PM me any potential quotes to include |
| You named Levi but he isn't even a main character lmao I didn't watch most of the examples of useless/annoying MCs you gave, but honestly if you really watch Re:Zero in the future and end up lumping Subaru in that basic category afterwards without truly understanding the character then congrats you're dumb. |
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| I don't agree with OP but I agree with everything Pullman said as usual. So that makes it easy. xD |
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Chiibi said: I don't agree with OP but I agree with everything Pullman said as usual. So that makes it easy. xD Pullman's a god :)))))))) he always give a fcking true paragraph that destroys any kid |
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crush_on_Kona said: A character being a NEET or the series having a harem doesn't matter though Deknijff said: It's my fault to say things too general. There are a lot of great isekai animes out there. I also especially love "Overlord" and "Konosuba". However bad-isekai is a thing you must have heard of, right ? like NEETs being summoned to another world and build a harem for their own, then go defeating non-developed antagonists for no reason ?No Isekai mains don't prove your point in making useless Protagonists. All you did was cherry pick if those examples are even valid slightly Or you going to say these main characters are useless when it comes to the plot of their series I mean having a character just fight a non-developed antagonist isn't limited to isekai so is irrelevant and I don't see the point of singling out isekais when you can find that issue in several anime like pure fantasy, martial arts anime or sciences fiction anime. Is like saying action anime don't always have good developed romance building so you single out action and asking why you can find so many quote on quote bad romance anime |
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Pullman said: I'm 100% convinced that every protagonist people call useless is 100 times more useful than the people who complain about them would ever be in the same situation. But I bett all of them have these completely twisted self-perceptions as badasses who would get in there and FUCK in Lawrence's or Subaru's place. In reality they would probably piss their pants and show us what it would look like if an actual coward or pussy were in their shoes - very differently than what we actually get in those anime. Honestly, Lawrence and Subaru are about the dumbest examples for this already dumb point that you could have thought up. Congratulations, all credibility has been lost just because of that alone. I hate Subaru omg what a fucling beta loser lol. I totally would have bent Rem over a table and put babies in her by now and I'd do the same to Emilia because I'm a total alpha not like Subaru who is a beta haha. I also would never do anything embarrassing in public like Subaru did! Please believe me. |
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| One Levi isn't the protagonist of AOT but if he was the series would be way less interesting Eren is a way better character then him. I mean I like Mikasa a lot but same thing as Levi they basically get boiled down to he is the badass plot device. There characters aren't that interesting compared to Eren, Erwin, Armin, Historia, Reiner or Zeke. Plus like people have pointed out so many people use terms like Subaru is so beta but when you really consider what the guy has done its vastly more than what most men will do in their lives and definitely more alpha than anyone here. Sure he is a very flawed person but I really doubt you guys have willingly faced down literal monsters or assassins without running (even with knowing the fact you won't die it would be psychologically traumatic considering how often and how he dies). If you want an answer it's just for especially action/adventure stories the Heroes Journey is a big player in how people write. By having your protag start off as some no name called to adventure you can give a sense of progress in the story both in the slow ramp up and the character keeping people invested. Of course this isn't always done well but does. Though yeah most of the characters you listed I am not super in love with. I would actually take more "weak" "pathetic" characters like Subaru, Yona or Eren over everyone you listed there. |
BilboBaggins365Apr 16, 2020 2:44 PM
| "Suffering makes a man", I quoted Klein from SAO cause it felt right to drop this here. I'm not sure what kind of "uselessness" you're implying, but I find it hard to believe that Subaru is to be seen as useless or coward for that matter. I've been watching Anime for quite sometime, and I have read lots of unfounded and baseless opinions about many characters, main or otherwise, for example: Shinji (from Evangelion) is the first that came to my mind when I saw this post. Anyone rational who's seen the show should be thinking "The boy's come a long way" instead of "he should just die", which unfortunately was what most people thought after seeing Shinji "cowering"; I can't help but think that people don't care about character psychology and development, they just want a badass MC who kicks butts, which is why I thought they would love Tatsuya from the Irregular of the Magic High School, but he too ended up with the short straw as he is now seen as this "too cool" untouchable and not-so-likeable character by some people (dunno if it's the same group that hated Shinji and Subaru from Re:Zero). In the end it all depends on what the viewer enjoys most, which is why creators end up screwing up their characters sometimes imo; it would be nice if people tried to appreciate the work of these creators more even if they don't like every aspect, there should at least be some places and bits of these "lesser" works they like after all. |
epidemia78 said: Pullman said: I'm 100% convinced that every protagonist people call useless is 100 times more useful than the people who complain about them would ever be in the same situation. But I bett all of them have these completely twisted self-perceptions as badasses who would get in there and FUCK in Lawrence's or Subaru's place. In reality they would probably piss their pants and show us what it would look like if an actual coward or pussy were in their shoes - very differently than what we actually get in those anime. Honestly, Lawrence and Subaru are about the dumbest examples for this already dumb point that you could have thought up. Congratulations, all credibility has been lost just because of that alone. I hate Subaru omg what a fucling beta loser lol. I totally would have bent Rem over a table and put babies in her by now and I'd do the same to Emilia because I'm a total alpha not like Subaru who is a beta haha. I also would never do anything embarrassing in public like Subaru did! Please believe me. Aktually... after a few goes with Subaru's power I would have went absolutely bonkers. I do mean Groundhog's Day bonkers. |
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epidemia78 said: I hate Subaru omg what a fucling beta loser lol. I totally would have bent Rem over a table and put babies in her by now and I'd do the same to Emilia because I'm a total alpha not like Subaru who is a beta haha. I also would never do anything embarrassing in public like Subaru did! Please believe me. He is not that idiot in light novel mate. "Anyone said Subaru'd better love Rem but actually no-one knows why Rem love Subaru" - someone said. |
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| Useless main characters are always useless for a reason. Your definition of 'useless' seems to just be one dimensional or boring characters, not characters that achieve nothing or make no real impact in their own story. So I'm gonna have to disagree with you when you call isekai mains useless. I haven't seen Re:creators so I can't say anything about that, but the mains of Kenja no mago and the Smartphone isekai aren't useless. What they are is boring and flat, and that's a completely different thing. I also don't think that Lawrence is useless. That entire series was really boring to me personally, but that man has his own skills and he's good at what he does. What exactly makes him useless? As for some actually useless characters, lots of people are bringing up Subaru. I agree that he is useless, he almost always makes the wrong decision and he's a whiny little bitch, but like I said before, there's a reason for that. Subaru is useless because it's perfect for the story of Re:zero. More often than not, the things he does piss people off, but that's the point. He's stupidly weak, mentally and physically, because his role in Re:zero is to be as close as possible to what a normal person would realistically be like in his situation. Whether or not you think the author has done a good job of portraying that is a different issue, but I think it's right to at least understand why he's so useless instead of automatically hating him for it the way lots of people are. Excluding Re:zero and maybe a couple others, the main character of a show is pretty much always useless for one of two reasons. 1. To make the supporting cast shine brighter/put emphasis on the world the anime is set in. In most cases with this one, the main character is not very relevant in the story. 2. It's a comedy or gag anime. For the first reason I'm gonna use Durarara as an example. [very slight spoilers ahead, read at your own risk] I think it's pretty fair to call Ryuugamine useless. The only impactful thing he does in the entire story is create the Dollars, the control of which gets tossed around for most of the show, and the only times he uses them is when someone else tells him to. Durarara is kind of a perfect example of what I mean by that first reason. Ryuugamine is useless because the entire point of the show is that everything, excluding him, is the opposite of that. If you've seen it, I'm sure you know what I mean. Every single supporting character, even the city itself, is there to contrast his dull character, and that's where the story comes from. The second reason is pretty self-explanatory. Think of Konosuba, the entire premise is that the cast is useless. That's what makes the show. |
marinara-sauceApr 17, 2020 1:23 AM
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