It’s 2020. Avatar is an anime.

Jyoshiro said:
So if anime only applies to Japanese made then what is Castlevania classified as? Just curious.

TolkienFan365 said:
No it's not ATLA was made by an American production team therefore not anime. It's that simple art style, writer, origin of animators working on it, it doesn't matter. What defines anime as anime is it a Japanese production. That's the point of the term anime. Sure in Japan anime can mean anything but we use that term to talk specifically about the Japanese run animation industry.

Valyrian1124 said:


Avatar was an American production yes, but the animation was outsourced to Korea. Japanese anime studios also outsource animation to Korean (and China and Vietnam). Even if the writing and sound was assembled by Americans, much of the animation originated from the same place as many Japanese anime shows.

At the end of the day, whether or not Avatar is "anime" is a matter of semantics. It's in the same genre and medium of shounen anime. It is "anime", though if I was asked to recommend anime, Avatar would not be one of my first recommendations. I'd say "well, you could also check out Avatar, which is pretty much an anime".

TolkienFan365 said:
No it's not ATLA was made by an American production team therefore not anime. It's that simple art style (there is no definite anime/manga art style so arguing how it looks is irrelevent), writer, origin of animators working on it, it doesn't matter. What defines anime as anime is it is a Japanese production. That's the point of the term anime. Sure in Japan anime can mean anything but we use that term to talk specifically about the Japanese run animation industry.

If I am on an anime board I want to talk about the daily goings on in this industry which is run differently not what Powerhouse Animation is doing. That isn't me standing on top with some superiority complex over Western animation I just feel talking about ATLA or RWBY is unrelated to the actual discussion around the anime industry. People need to stop getting hanged up assuming style means anything about if something is anime or not or what the themes of the story are. Anime is just a term to refer where the animated production is from same as manga that's all it indicates. ATLA is not from Japan and therefore not anime. It's an American animated production inspired by some Japanese animation and other various Asian cultures. That simple. RWBY is a Western animation production inspired by Japanese magical girl titles (at least from what I can tell) but it still is a Western production. If it was made by a Japanese production group though sure it would be anime. That's why the manga for RWBY is here because the manga was produced by a Japanese creator and published by Japanese publishers.

Breadwinnerr said:
Just, wanted to start a conversation - especially seeing as how Netflix AN AMERICAN COMPANY has sunk its teeth into the anime scape. We don’t seem to contest much of the anime they are putting out - as long as we see a bunch of Japanese names in the credits it’s cool.

Breadwinnerr said:
This makes sense but for anime like ‘7 Seeds’ it doesn’t really hold up - 7 Seeds was a manga of Japanese origin, fine, but Netflix handles the bulk of the production of anime - hence they even have a right to call it a “Netflix Original Anime” go to your search bar and the anime still shows up in MAL. We still qualify it as an anime. Why?

Breadwinnerr said:
This makes sense but for anime like ‘7 Seeds’ it doesn’t really hold up - 7 Seeds was a manga of Japanese origin, fine, but Netflix handles the bulk of the production of anime - hence they even have a right to call it a “Netflix Original Anime” go to your search bar and the anime still shows up in MAL. We still qualify it as an anime. Why?

Pullman said:


So I was right about you not really knowing how Netflix works. I gave you a brief overview in my second post, but why can't you do your own research BEFORE you start making threads like that? I don't think Netflix has a single animator on staff, how would they do the 'bulk of the work' on 7Seeds? They don't. It was animated by Studio Gonzo, a japanese animation studio full of japanese employees. Netflix is one of three companies listed as producers, the other two being japanese. The entire staff, as far as I can tell, is japanese.

PRODUCTION has never really mattered for qualifying something as anime or western, since that is only about where the money comes from, while the actual work is done by studios, animators and the likes. Westerners have been producers for anime for decades now and noone ever said these anime they financed are not anime. If one american hands a few million bucks to a japanese company, whose 100+ employees then create the entire show from scratch, was it made by Japan or America? If you ask me the answer is obvious, but you seem to think that only the money matters and not the actual work being done. You're free to hold that opinion, but it's not how MAL sees it and I agree with MAL.

Breadwinnerr said:
Sorry I’m looking at things in a very superficial manner. It’s just marketed to the public as a “Netflix ORIGINAL Anime” and the cogs in the wheel (largely Japanese) are allowing this... I guess because Netflix is shoveling the money. Regardless it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a Netflix Original Anime.

TheKawaiiToon said:
Is Avatar an anime? Well technically yes.

Anime is cartoon and cartoon is anime.

I consider shows like One Piece, Sword Art Online, My Hero Academia, Konosuba, Demon Slayer, Violet Evergarden and Code Geass cartoons.

I consider shows like Avatar, Teen Titans (both series), Spongebob, My Little Pony, Steven Universe, The Miraculous Ladybug and Rick and Morty anime.

In the end, they are all nothing but drawings on paper.

And tbh, this debate is as old and as stale as dubs vs subs and the waifu wars and that's all I can say about this.

Pullman said:


I hope I don't come across too strongly, but next time maybe some quick googling before you make a thread will help having an informed opinion instead of just, well, an opinion. That saves time for everyone involved.

And the 'Netflix Original' label is pretty irrelevant for the topic in question. First of all they slap that even onto some titles they have not produced and most importantly it says nothing about where the show is from. There are german and french and nordish live-action series that are Netflix Originals, there are Netflix Original comedy specialy from latin american comedians, filmed in latin america, or from east-asian comedians filmed in korea or singapore. Netflix might be an american company, but their Original titles are from all around the world. They maintain their country of origin no matter who finances them or buys their license. The Netflix catalogue is about as international as it gets.

Pullman said:
Oh wow, youtube is your source for this information? It must be true then!


But seriously, the community can change as much as it wants, that doesn't mean the definitions of words changes. And it most definitely doesn't mean that MAL's definition is gonna change.

I'll say the same argument I always say on these occasions: It is simply not practical, realistic, feasible or even possible to include all of animation in the MAL DB. The staff is already working at capacity as it is. You can't just turn MAL into a general DB for all kinds of animation, it's not realistic. Who would put in all the thousands hours of work? You?

I'd rather have a fairly complete and comprehensive DB of japanese/korean/chinese animation than an arbitrarily incomplete DB for animation in general that is missing a million titles from all around the world.


And don't get me started on the ridiculousness of defining anime by 'style'.
IT. DOES. NOT. WORK.
Even setting aside the most obvious issue of it being almost impossible to define ANY style in an objective way, there is no such thing as 'the one' anime style. Even the 'mainstream' style is different now than it was in the 80s or in the 60s, not to mention the countless of shows that deviate from it each season.

It is absolutely impossible to try and define anime via style without turning the question of what is an anime into an utterly subjective and biased slugfest where every single title added to the DB needs to be hotly debated by the community, and noone will agree on anything. I can already see people wanting to remove Tezuka titles (the guy who basically invented anime) from the DB because their style is very different from how modern mainstream anime look. It would be chaos. There is no upside at all.

People who think you can feasibly have a DB that is defined by something as inherently vague and subjective as 'style' are delusional. That's just how it is. No matter where you stand on the question philosophically, it's not feasible as an objective criteria for entry in the DB. And you need OBJECTIVE criteria for a DB, otherwise it just becomes an arbitrary, biased, random collection of shows based on however the mods feel that day. Does anyone want that? It would diminish any credibility MAL has as a DB.

If you ask me, animation is the medium and dividing it up based on country of origin is not necessary and I would prefer a DB for all of animation, but as I said it's not feasible for MAL to become that so that's out of the question. And if we have to segment the animation medium into smaller portions that can be handled by a DB, then there really are only two objective ways to do that that won't lead to every single title being debated:
1. Geographically based on country of origin (like MAL)
2. Based on animation techniques (cel animation vs digital animation vs 3Dcgi vs. oil-on-glass vs cutout animation vs pupper animation vs stop motion animation etc...)

I don't think anyone is doing the latter, but unlike 'style' it would theoretically be realistic as a criteria and enforcable without endless debates about every single title. And 'Anime' has always meant (in the west) that something is from Japan/south-east asia, so that's still what the term means. It as utterly irrelevant how many anime fans enjoy western animation like Avatar or Castlevania, the definition of anime is still the same.


So yeah, it has nothing to do with my opinion (which is that all of animation is one medium), it's just about what works realistically for a DB like MAL and what 'anime' as a term has always meant. You can't just randomly change things for no real reason.



Which brings me to me counter question @Breadwinnerr
Why do you even want Avatar to be seen as an anime? What difference does it make to your happiness and well-being? Why can't you just enjoy something western, created by westerners for westerners, once in a while without trying to attribute it to Japan? Where is the problem? I never understand the issue in the first place, what do people hope to gain by labeling Avatar as an anime instead of a 'cartoon'?

If it's just because you want it on MAL, then see above for why it is not feasible to change the MAL guidelines to something vague and subjective that can't be objectively defined.
And any other reason for wanting Avatar to be seen as anime is just silly and usually boils down to 'I'm such a weeb that I can't enjoy anything western in good conscience so I have to pretend western stuff I like is actually japanese to be able to appreciate it'. In which case, get over it, you're being ridiculous.

chair-sama said:

That's an overkill, you didn't need to do that.

Manaban said:

There's a certain magic in beating somebody in a way that's so one-sided

This is a good experience for everyone involved, I'm sure

YossaRedMage said:
And more and more people who don't give a fuck about Japan have come in like refugees from the barren wasteland of western animation trying to change the culture (little spicy political commentary for you there ;).

Pyro said:

Agreed. @Pullman out here spitting facts and educating the younglings. He's doing a service.

Breadwinnerr said:
You have to admit how interesting speaking about this topic is on the dawn of 2020, I’m amazed I’ve received such a reaction.

Orhunaa said:
Didn't know anyone used "current year" unironically in the past 5 years.



My, such subtlety.

YossaRedMage said:
Anime is Japanese. The Japanese made animation worth a damn. And now people are trying to hijack the community.

Look, if you like animation in general, not just Anime, then make a community space for that. Problem is, there's no community like the Anime community for animation in general is there? You know why? Japan has done animation better than the rest of the world for a long time. And more and more people who don't give a fuck about Japan have come in like refugees from the barren wasteland of western animation trying to change the culture (little spicy political commentary for you there ;).

You're being a straight-up asshole by trying to change the definition of the object of passion for this community. There may be others who agree with you, but there are 10 of us for every 1 of you. Not that it should matter. NO ONE has ANY right to change the definitions that ANY fandom is made from. It's far more healthy for seperate fandoms to spring up so that peoples individual tastes are better catered for.

Also, my God, are people still doing that argument where they start by saying "it's current year why are we still doing [thing I don't like]"? Seriously - and I mean seriously - fuck off with that. New is not always better.

Breadwinnerr said:
I know I’m just clutching at straws here, I was just caught in a cognitive dissonance of somekind - hitting my head against the wall, trying to come up with a *Clear-Cut* definition of what anime is - a definition that is completely free of any loopholes...Do I really care if Avatar is not considered an anime - No, not really. Do I think what defines an anime as an anime is somewhat vague given the large plethora of anime - Yeah, yeah I do. Just trying to see what others think, Avatar was just an example I could’ve wrote Ben 10😂