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#1
Nov 14, 2019 9:31 AM
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So it’s almost 2020, Anime and the anime community has changed, I’m not going to write up an essay about how Avatar is an anime or how Anime can’t be restricted to just ‘Japanese animation’, you can find out about stuff like that on YouTube ... I watched Mothers Basement’s YouTube video on the topic and it really had me thinking. I posted this topic just to find out where the community is at on the matter of the “What is anime” and “Avatar is an Anime” debate. Do you disagree or agree? And what is the definition of anime in this day and age?

People don’t seem to be contesting any of the anime Netflix (An American Company) is putting out so...
Modified by Breadwinnerr, Nov 14, 2019 10:18 AM
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange
 
#2
Nov 14, 2019 9:33 AM

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Wrong title.
It's still 2019 and Avatar isn't an anime.

Anime are just cartoon made in Japan, it doesn't matter the quality.
In Japan stuff like Family Guy it's called anime, here it's just stuff made by the japanese
Modified by Heimur, Nov 14, 2019 9:43 AM

 
#3
Nov 14, 2019 9:34 AM

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So is Sponge Bob Square Pants. Nothing to discuss here, actually.
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#4
Nov 14, 2019 9:34 AM

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It's 2019 still, and Avatar still is not an anime.

And it won't be in 2020. Nor in 2021. Nor in any year before nor in any year after.

Avatar never was, and never will be, an anime.

 
#5
Nov 14, 2019 9:34 AM

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"It’s 2020. Avatar is an anime."

- Is this one of those "In the future everybody will dumber."?

- Lets say that ATLA (or Cameron's movie?) is anime, how is this changing anything?
 
#6
Nov 14, 2019 9:40 AM
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So if anime only applies to Japanese made then what is Castlevania classified as? Just curious.
 
#7
Nov 14, 2019 9:43 AM

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No it's not ATLA was made by an American production team therefore not anime. It's that simple art style (there is no definite anime/manga art style so arguing how it looks is irrelevent), writer, origin of animators working on it, it doesn't matter. What defines anime as anime is it is a Japanese production. That's the point of the term anime. Sure in Japan anime can mean anything but we use that term to talk specifically about the Japanese run animation industry.

If I am on an anime board I want to talk about the daily goings on in this industry which is run differently not what Powerhouse Animation is doing. That isn't me standing on top with some superiority complex over Western animation I just feel talking about ATLA or RWBY is unrelated to the actual discussion around the anime industry. People need to stop getting hanged up assuming style means anything about if something is anime or not or what the themes of the story are. Anime is just a term to refer where the animated production is from same as manga that's all it indicates. ATLA is not from Japan and therefore not anime. It's an American animated production inspired by some Japanese animation and other various Asian cultures. That simple. RWBY is a Western animation production inspired by Japanese magical girl titles (at least from what I can tell) but it still is a Western production. If it was made by a Japanese production group though sure it would be anime. That's why the manga for RWBY is here because the manga was produced by a Japanese creator and published by Japanese publishers.
Modified by TolkienFan365, Nov 14, 2019 9:49 AM
 
#8
Nov 14, 2019 9:46 AM

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Jyoshiro said:
So if anime only applies to Japanese made then what is Castlevania classified as? Just curious.

An American animated web television series based on a Japanese game
 
#9
Nov 14, 2019 9:49 AM
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Just, wanted to start a conversation - especially seeing as how Netflix AN AMERICAN COMPANY has sunk its teeth into the anime scape. We don’t seem to contest much of the anime they are putting out - as long as we see a bunch of Japanese names in the credits it’s cool.
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange
 
Nov 14, 2019 9:49 AM

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TolkienFan365 said:
No it's not ATLA was made by an American production team therefore not anime. It's that simple art style, writer, origin of animators working on it, it doesn't matter. What defines anime as anime is it a Japanese production. That's the point of the term anime. Sure in Japan anime can mean anything but we use that term to talk specifically about the Japanese run animation industry.


Avatar was an American production yes, but the animation was outsourced to Korea. Japanese anime studios also outsource animation to Korean (and China and Vietnam). Even if the writing and sound was assembled by Americans, much of the animation originated from the same place as many Japanese anime shows.

At the end of the day, whether or not Avatar is "anime" is a matter of semantics. It's in the same genre and medium of shounen anime. It is "anime", though if I was asked to recommend anime, Avatar would not be one of my first recommendations. I'd say "well, you could also check out Avatar, which is pretty much an anime".
 
Nov 14, 2019 9:49 AM

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It's not 2020 until Kanye wins the election, baka!
 
Nov 14, 2019 9:50 AM

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Valyrian1124 said:
TolkienFan365 said:
No it's not ATLA was made by an American production team therefore not anime. It's that simple art style, writer, origin of animators working on it, it doesn't matter. What defines anime as anime is it a Japanese production. That's the point of the term anime. Sure in Japan anime can mean anything but we use that term to talk specifically about the Japanese run animation industry.


Avatar was an American production yes, but the animation was outsourced to Korea. Japanese anime studios also outsource animation to Korean (and China and Vietnam). Even if the writing and sound was assembled by Americans, much of the animation originated from the same place as many Japanese anime shows.

At the end of the day, whether or not Avatar is "anime" is a matter of semantics. It's in the same genre and medium of shounen anime. It is "anime", though if I was asked to recommend anime, Avatar would not be one of my first recommendations. I'd say "well, you could also check out Avatar, which is pretty much an anime".



It doesn't matter fact is the production was started by a Western company therefore the origin is Western. Anime origin is Japan. The point of these terms is to distinguish the geographic origin. If you disagree with that you might as well have MAL include Disney animation, SU and French animation and every other animated content out there. It's influenced by the Japanese animation industry but it wasn't produced by. You can say sure it's like anime but it isn't. If you want to use the term anime to just reference art styles or themes then we need a new term to talk specifically about Japanese animation again.
Modified by TolkienFan365, Nov 14, 2019 9:54 AM
 
Nov 14, 2019 9:52 AM

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No matter how much people whine about this, i will not consider Avatar an anime. Its an animated show or its a cartoon show, either way.
I strictly reserve the term anime for Japanese animation.
The chinese animation such as the mo dao zu shi thingy aren't anime either. I think they're called donghua or something?
 
Nov 14, 2019 9:56 AM

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cmon guys it's literally current(next) year
shirt [x]
 
Nov 14, 2019 9:58 AM

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Oh wow, youtube is your source for this information? It must be true then!


But seriously, the community can change as much as it wants, that doesn't mean the definitions of words changes. And it most definitely doesn't mean that MAL's definition is gonna change.

I'll say the same argument I always say on these occasions: It is simply not practical, realistic, feasible or even possible to include all of animation in the MAL DB. The staff is already working at capacity as it is. You can't just turn MAL into a general DB for all kinds of animation, it's not realistic. Who would put in all the thousands hours of work? You?

I'd rather have a fairly complete and comprehensive DB of japanese/korean/chinese animation than an arbitrarily incomplete DB for animation in general that is missing a million titles from all around the world.


And don't get me started on the ridiculousness of defining anime by 'style'.
IT. DOES. NOT. WORK.
Even setting aside the most obvious issue of it being almost impossible to define ANY style in an objective way, there is no such thing as 'the one' anime style. Even the 'mainstream' style is different now than it was in the 80s or in the 60s, not to mention the countless of shows that deviate from it each season.

It is absolutely impossible to try and define anime via style without turning the question of what is an anime into an utterly subjective and biased slugfest where every single title added to the DB needs to be hotly debated by the community, and noone will agree on anything. I can already see people wanting to remove Tezuka titles (the guy who basically invented anime) from the DB because their style is very different from how modern mainstream anime look. It would be chaos. There is no upside at all.

People who think you can feasibly have a DB that is defined by something as inherently vague and subjective as 'style' are delusional. That's just how it is. No matter where you stand on the question philosophically, it's not feasible as an objective criteria for entry in the DB. And you need OBJECTIVE criteria for a DB, otherwise it just becomes an arbitrary, biased, random collection of shows based on however the mods feel that day. Does anyone want that? It would diminish any credibility MAL has as a DB.

If you ask me, animation is the medium and dividing it up based on country of origin is not necessary and I would prefer a DB for all of animation, but as I said it's not feasible for MAL to become that so that's out of the question. And if we have to segment the animation medium into smaller portions that can be handled by a DB, then there really are only two objective ways to do that that won't lead to every single title being debated:
1. Geographically based on country of origin (like MAL)
2. Based on animation techniques (cel animation vs digital animation vs 3Dcgi vs. oil-on-glass vs cutout animation vs pupper animation vs stop motion animation etc...)

I don't think anyone is doing the latter, but unlike 'style' it would theoretically be realistic as a criteria and enforcable without endless debates about every single title. And 'Anime' has always meant (in the west) that something is from Japan/south-east asia, so that's still what the term means. It as utterly irrelevant how many anime fans enjoy western animation like Avatar or Castlevania, the definition of anime is still the same.


So yeah, it has nothing to do with my opinion (which is that all of animation is one medium), it's just about what works realistically for a DB like MAL and what 'anime' as a term has always meant. You can't just randomly change things for no real reason.



Which brings me to me counter question @Breadwinnerr
Why do you even want Avatar to be seen as an anime? What difference does it make to your happiness and well-being? Why can't you just enjoy something western, created by westerners for westerners, once in a while without trying to attribute it to Japan? Where is the problem? I never understand the issue in the first place, what do people hope to gain by labeling Avatar as an anime instead of a 'cartoon'?

If it's just because you want it on MAL, then see above for why it is not feasible to change the MAL guidelines to something vague and subjective that can't be objectively defined.
And any other reason for wanting Avatar to be seen as anime is just silly and usually boils down to 'I'm such a weeb that I can't enjoy anything western in good conscience so I have to pretend western stuff I like is actually japanese to be able to appreciate it'. In which case, get over it, you're being ridiculous.
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Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:04 AM
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TolkienFan365 said:
No it's not ATLA was made by an American production team therefore not anime. It's that simple art style (there is no definite anime/manga art style so arguing how it looks is irrelevent), writer, origin of animators working on it, it doesn't matter. What defines anime as anime is it is a Japanese production. That's the point of the term anime. Sure in Japan anime can mean anything but we use that term to talk specifically about the Japanese run animation industry.

If I am on an anime board I want to talk about the daily goings on in this industry which is run differently not what Powerhouse Animation is doing. That isn't me standing on top with some superiority complex over Western animation I just feel talking about ATLA or RWBY is unrelated to the actual discussion around the anime industry. People need to stop getting hanged up assuming style means anything about if something is anime or not or what the themes of the story are. Anime is just a term to refer where the animated production is from same as manga that's all it indicates. ATLA is not from Japan and therefore not anime. It's an American animated production inspired by some Japanese animation and other various Asian cultures. That simple. RWBY is a Western animation production inspired by Japanese magical girl titles (at least from what I can tell) but it still is a Western production. If it was made by a Japanese production group though sure it would be anime. That's why the manga for RWBY is here because the manga was produced by a Japanese creator and published by Japanese publishers.
This makes sense but for anime like ‘7 Seeds’ it doesn’t really hold up - 7 Seeds was a manga of Japanese origin, fine, but Netflix handles the bulk of the production of anime - hence they even have a right to call it a “Netflix Original Anime” go to your search bar and the anime still shows up in MAL. We still qualify it as an anime. Why?
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:07 AM

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Breadwinnerr said:
Just, wanted to start a conversation - especially seeing as how Netflix AN AMERICAN COMPANY has sunk its teeth into the anime scape. We don’t seem to contest much of the anime they are putting out - as long as we see a bunch of Japanese names in the credits it’s cool.


Believe it or not but the mods on this site actually do their research and only shows that were primarily done by japanese are getting added to the DB, a bunch of inverified, random names in the credits is not the criteria for entry in the DB. You can read up on the exact guidelines and how corner-cases are decided if you're interested. That's the beauty of having clearly defined, objective criteria for entry in the DB. You just need to do your research on the staff, apply the guidelines, and you will know if it qualifies as an anime according to those guidelines or not. End of story.

Just because the average user doesn't do that research and accepts everything with a single japanese name in the credits as being 'exclusively anime' doesn't mean that should be the golden standard or how a DB site like MAL should work. Viewers can afford to just 'accept' what they watch because in the end the country of origin shouldn't matter to them as long as they enjoy what they watch, but if you want to maintain a DB you actually have to do the research to maintain your credibility.

And I'm not sure if you know anything about Netflix and their business model, but Netflix usually just either buys licenses or commissions works, they don't contribute any actual staff members to the production as far as I know. They hire studios, directors, animators, writers etc... They basically just provide the money or buy the license, so their involvement has basically zero bearing on whether something is being done by japanese companies and people or western companies and people. The people actually creating those shows are what matters, not where the money comes from. It's that simple. Netflix doesn't complicate anything, it just added a new investor to the mix. It's not like before Netflix non-japanese companies were never on production companies.
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Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:08 AM

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Personally I'd like the word anime to be used to include any work that's made in the style. So Avatar, Castlevania, Chinese anime etc would all fall under "anime" as an umbrella term. The problem with that ofc is defining the "anime style" so it's not a great definition.

A better option is to use anime for Japanese animation, then refer to anime inspired shows like King's Avatar and Castlevania as "Chinese anime" or "American anime" rather than using new words for each. That has its own problems, as companies and workers become less monogamous attaching a country to each type loses meaning. The current common definition of anime also has this issue.
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:13 AM

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Beating a dead topic...i like it.

Anime for me means "japanese animation", why do you even wanna change that?

They are entirely diffrent things compared to Korean or Chinese animation, if some Japanese people that work for Netflix do a anime, its anime if not then its not.

We already have that with Manga and Manhwa why woudl you not distinguish just cause the pictures move.
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:14 AM

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Breadwinnerr said:
TolkienFan365 said:
No it's not ATLA was made by an American production team therefore not anime. It's that simple art style (there is no definite anime/manga art style so arguing how it looks is irrelevent), writer, origin of animators working on it, it doesn't matter. What defines anime as anime is it is a Japanese production. That's the point of the term anime. Sure in Japan anime can mean anything but we use that term to talk specifically about the Japanese run animation industry.

If I am on an anime board I want to talk about the daily goings on in this industry which is run differently not what Powerhouse Animation is doing. That isn't me standing on top with some superiority complex over Western animation I just feel talking about ATLA or RWBY is unrelated to the actual discussion around the anime industry. People need to stop getting hanged up assuming style means anything about if something is anime or not or what the themes of the story are. Anime is just a term to refer where the animated production is from same as manga that's all it indicates. ATLA is not from Japan and therefore not anime. It's an American animated production inspired by some Japanese animation and other various Asian cultures. That simple. RWBY is a Western animation production inspired by Japanese magical girl titles (at least from what I can tell) but it still is a Western production. If it was made by a Japanese production group though sure it would be anime. That's why the manga for RWBY is here because the manga was produced by a Japanese creator and published by Japanese publishers.
This makes sense but for anime like ‘7 Seeds’ it doesn’t really hold up - 7 Seeds was a manga of Japanese origin, fine, but Netflix handles the bulk of the production of anime - hence they even have a right to call it a “Netflix Original Anime” go to your search bar and the anime still shows up in MAL. We still qualify it as an anime. Why?


Where is your evidence of that they contributed the majority? A lot of Netflix originals they either had no involvement in or were just one of those on the production committee 7Seeds seems like that as they still have other producers and it was made by a Japanese creative team and studio. I guess if Netflix fully funded shows (which they never have to my knowledge) there would be a more blurred line but the heads of these productions are still mainly Japanese even with the outsourcing going on.

I mean sure the nature of it will be more confusing if more collaboration goes on from heads of studios from different countries or say manga get adapted by Western studios which the head of Powerhouse I believe he had stated some interest in Berserk. I am just saying when I saw anime industry I am talking about Japan's animation industry we don't include Powerhouse because they make stuff like anime.
Modified by TolkienFan365, Nov 14, 2019 10:19 AM
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:18 AM

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Breadwinnerr said:
TolkienFan365 said:
No it's not ATLA was made by an American production team therefore not anime. It's that simple art style (there is no definite anime/manga art style so arguing how it looks is irrelevent), writer, origin of animators working on it, it doesn't matter. What defines anime as anime is it is a Japanese production. That's the point of the term anime. Sure in Japan anime can mean anything but we use that term to talk specifically about the Japanese run animation industry.

If I am on an anime board I want to talk about the daily goings on in this industry which is run differently not what Powerhouse Animation is doing. That isn't me standing on top with some superiority complex over Western animation I just feel talking about ATLA or RWBY is unrelated to the actual discussion around the anime industry. People need to stop getting hanged up assuming style means anything about if something is anime or not or what the themes of the story are. Anime is just a term to refer where the animated production is from same as manga that's all it indicates. ATLA is not from Japan and therefore not anime. It's an American animated production inspired by some Japanese animation and other various Asian cultures. That simple. RWBY is a Western animation production inspired by Japanese magical girl titles (at least from what I can tell) but it still is a Western production. If it was made by a Japanese production group though sure it would be anime. That's why the manga for RWBY is here because the manga was produced by a Japanese creator and published by Japanese publishers.
This makes sense but for anime like ‘7 Seeds’ it doesn’t really hold up - 7 Seeds was a manga of Japanese origin, fine, but Netflix handles the bulk of the production of anime - hence they even have a right to call it a “Netflix Original Anime” go to your search bar and the anime still shows up in MAL. We still qualify it as an anime. Why?


So I was right about you not really knowing how Netflix works. I gave you a brief overview in my second post, but why can't you do your own research BEFORE you start making threads like that? I don't think Netflix has a single animator on staff, how would they do the 'bulk of the work' on 7Seeds? They don't. It was animated by Studio Gonzo, a japanese animation studio full of japanese employees. Netflix is one of three companies listed as producers, the other two being japanese. The entire staff, as far as I can tell, is japanese. You can find that out in 10 seconds, either here on MAL, on ANN or even on wiki. That's what I mean by 'why don't you do your own research?'. It's really annoying having to argue with people who act like they know what they are talking about but can't be bothered to invest 10 seconds of their time into fact-checking their own opinions. It's making it hard to stay polite...

PRODUCTION has never really mattered for qualifying something as anime or western, since that is only about where the money comes from, while the actual work is done by studios, animators and the likes. Westerners have been producers for anime for decades now and noone ever said these anime they financed are not anime. If one american hands a few million bucks to a japanese company, whose 100+ employees then create the entire show from scratch, was it made by Japan or America? If you ask me the answer is obvious, but you seem to think that only the money matters and not the actual work being done. You're free to hold that opinion, but it's not how MAL sees it and I agree with MAL.
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Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:27 AM
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Pullman said:
Breadwinnerr said:
This makes sense but for anime like ‘7 Seeds’ it doesn’t really hold up - 7 Seeds was a manga of Japanese origin, fine, but Netflix handles the bulk of the production of anime - hence they even have a right to call it a “Netflix Original Anime” go to your search bar and the anime still shows up in MAL. We still qualify it as an anime. Why?


So I was right about you not really knowing how Netflix works. I gave you a brief overview in my second post, but why can't you do your own research BEFORE you start making threads like that? I don't think Netflix has a single animator on staff, how would they do the 'bulk of the work' on 7Seeds? They don't. It was animated by Studio Gonzo, a japanese animation studio full of japanese employees. Netflix is one of three companies listed as producers, the other two being japanese. The entire staff, as far as I can tell, is japanese.

PRODUCTION has never really mattered for qualifying something as anime or western, since that is only about where the money comes from, while the actual work is done by studios, animators and the likes. Westerners have been producers for anime for decades now and noone ever said these anime they financed are not anime. If one american hands a few million bucks to a japanese company, whose 100+ employees then create the entire show from scratch, was it made by Japan or America? If you ask me the answer is obvious, but you seem to think that only the money matters and not the actual work being done. You're free to hold that opinion, but it's not how MAL sees it and I agree with MAL.
Sorry I’m looking at things in a very superficial manner. It’s just marketed to the public as a “Netflix ORIGINAL Anime” and the cogs in the wheel (largely Japanese) are allowing this... I guess because Netflix is shoveling the money. Regardless it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a Netflix Original Anime.
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:37 AM
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It’s “current year” so you must lower your standards to meet mine.




🅗🅐🅡🅓🅔🅡 🅓🅐🅓🅓🅨
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:38 AM

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Just wanna post before the eventual lock/shitstorm.

I mean...Who cares?

Does it really matter if it is or isn’t?

It was one of the BEST animated shows of all time...that’s the only thing that matters!
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:44 AM

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Breadwinnerr said:
Pullman said:


So I was right about you not really knowing how Netflix works. I gave you a brief overview in my second post, but why can't you do your own research BEFORE you start making threads like that? I don't think Netflix has a single animator on staff, how would they do the 'bulk of the work' on 7Seeds? They don't. It was animated by Studio Gonzo, a japanese animation studio full of japanese employees. Netflix is one of three companies listed as producers, the other two being japanese. The entire staff, as far as I can tell, is japanese.

PRODUCTION has never really mattered for qualifying something as anime or western, since that is only about where the money comes from, while the actual work is done by studios, animators and the likes. Westerners have been producers for anime for decades now and noone ever said these anime they financed are not anime. If one american hands a few million bucks to a japanese company, whose 100+ employees then create the entire show from scratch, was it made by Japan or America? If you ask me the answer is obvious, but you seem to think that only the money matters and not the actual work being done. You're free to hold that opinion, but it's not how MAL sees it and I agree with MAL.
Sorry I’m looking at things in a very superficial manner. It’s just marketed to the public as a “Netflix ORIGINAL Anime” and the cogs in the wheel (largely Japanese) are allowing this... I guess because Netflix is shoveling the money. Regardless it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a Netflix Original Anime.


I hope I don't come across too strongly, but next time maybe some quick googling before you make a thread will help having an informed opinion instead of just, well, an opinion. That saves time for everyone involved.

And the 'Netflix Original' label is pretty irrelevant for the topic in question. First of all they slap that even onto some titles they have not produced and most importantly it says nothing about where the show is from. There are german and french and nordish live-action series that are Netflix Originals, there are Netflix Original comedy specialy from latin american comedians, filmed in latin america, or from east-asian comedians filmed in korea or singapore. Netflix might be an american company, but their Original titles are from all around the world. They maintain their country of origin no matter who finances them or buys their license. The Netflix catalogue is about as international as it gets.
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Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Nov 14, 2019 10:44 AM

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Is Avatar an anime? Well technically yes.

Anime is cartoon and cartoon is anime.

I consider shows like One Piece, Sword Art Online, My Hero Academia, Konosuba, Demon Slayer, Violet Evergarden and Code Geass cartoons.

I consider shows like Avatar, Teen Titans (both series), Spongebob, My Little Pony, Steven Universe, The Miraculous Ladybug and Rick and Morty anime.

In the end, they are all nothing but drawings on paper.

And tbh, this debate is as old and as stale as dubs vs subs and the waifu wars and that's all I can say about this.


Allow me to teach you something useful:
My Top 20 Japanese Cartoons
Anime elitists in a nutshell
Many people say that anime is not a cartoon.
But in the end, they're nothing more but drawings on paper.

 
Nov 14, 2019 11:13 AM

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TheKawaiiToon said:
Is Avatar an anime? Well technically yes.

Anime is cartoon and cartoon is anime.

I consider shows like One Piece, Sword Art Online, My Hero Academia, Konosuba, Demon Slayer, Violet Evergarden and Code Geass cartoons.

I consider shows like Avatar, Teen Titans (both series), Spongebob, My Little Pony, Steven Universe, The Miraculous Ladybug and Rick and Morty anime.

In the end, they are all nothing but drawings on paper.

And tbh, this debate is as old and as stale as dubs vs subs and the waifu wars and that's all I can say about this.

That's rather strange. You have a Japanese mindset and a flipped western one at the same time.
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:20 AM
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Pullman said:
Breadwinnerr said:
Sorry I’m looking at things in a very superficial manner. It’s just marketed to the public as a “Netflix ORIGINAL Anime” and the cogs in the wheel (largely Japanese) are allowing this... I guess because Netflix is shoveling the money. Regardless it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a Netflix Original Anime.


I hope I don't come across too strongly, but next time maybe some quick googling before you make a thread will help having an informed opinion instead of just, well, an opinion. That saves time for everyone involved.

And the 'Netflix Original' label is pretty irrelevant for the topic in question. First of all they slap that even onto some titles they have not produced and most importantly it says nothing about where the show is from. There are german and french and nordish live-action series that are Netflix Originals, there are Netflix Original comedy specialy from latin american comedians, filmed in latin america, or from east-asian comedians filmed in korea or singapore. Netflix might be an american company, but their Original titles are from all around the world. They maintain their country of origin no matter who finances them or buys their license. The Netflix catalogue is about as international as it gets.
Didn’t think I’d have to do research, the anime says it originates from Netflix and frankly that’s what the other 158 Million+ Netflix subscribers are seeing - such a thing shouldn’t be cause to go research about nor should it be suspicious or be cause for concern considering how big Netflix is. But you’re right just because it can only be seen only be seen on Netflix (and nowhere else) and the fact that Netflix threw money at it - doesn’t really make it any less of an anime, considering the studio Gonzo did most of the heavy lifting. But stuff like this contradicts some of what you said in your rebuttal, anime like ‘Cannon Busters’ have an American creator and Chief Director, also the staff consists of largely Americans. It’s still considered an anime and is on MAL.
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:24 AM
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Who cares? Avatar is a masterpiece, it doesn't matter what medium it is.
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:26 AM
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I know I’m just clutching at straws here, I was just caught in a cognitive dissonance of somekind - hitting my head against the wall, trying to come up with a *Clear-Cut* definition of what anime is - a definition that is completely free of any loopholes...Do I really care if Avatar is not considered an anime - No, not really. Do I think what defines an anime as an anime is somewhat vague given the large plethora of anime - Yeah, yeah I do. Just trying to see what others think, Avatar was just an example I could’ve wrote Ben 10😂
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:27 AM

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Pullman said:
Oh wow, youtube is your source for this information? It must be true then!


But seriously, the community can change as much as it wants, that doesn't mean the definitions of words changes. And it most definitely doesn't mean that MAL's definition is gonna change.

I'll say the same argument I always say on these occasions: It is simply not practical, realistic, feasible or even possible to include all of animation in the MAL DB. The staff is already working at capacity as it is. You can't just turn MAL into a general DB for all kinds of animation, it's not realistic. Who would put in all the thousands hours of work? You?

I'd rather have a fairly complete and comprehensive DB of japanese/korean/chinese animation than an arbitrarily incomplete DB for animation in general that is missing a million titles from all around the world.


And don't get me started on the ridiculousness of defining anime by 'style'.
IT. DOES. NOT. WORK.
Even setting aside the most obvious issue of it being almost impossible to define ANY style in an objective way, there is no such thing as 'the one' anime style. Even the 'mainstream' style is different now than it was in the 80s or in the 60s, not to mention the countless of shows that deviate from it each season.

It is absolutely impossible to try and define anime via style without turning the question of what is an anime into an utterly subjective and biased slugfest where every single title added to the DB needs to be hotly debated by the community, and noone will agree on anything. I can already see people wanting to remove Tezuka titles (the guy who basically invented anime) from the DB because their style is very different from how modern mainstream anime look. It would be chaos. There is no upside at all.

People who think you can feasibly have a DB that is defined by something as inherently vague and subjective as 'style' are delusional. That's just how it is. No matter where you stand on the question philosophically, it's not feasible as an objective criteria for entry in the DB. And you need OBJECTIVE criteria for a DB, otherwise it just becomes an arbitrary, biased, random collection of shows based on however the mods feel that day. Does anyone want that? It would diminish any credibility MAL has as a DB.

If you ask me, animation is the medium and dividing it up based on country of origin is not necessary and I would prefer a DB for all of animation, but as I said it's not feasible for MAL to become that so that's out of the question. And if we have to segment the animation medium into smaller portions that can be handled by a DB, then there really are only two objective ways to do that that won't lead to every single title being debated:
1. Geographically based on country of origin (like MAL)
2. Based on animation techniques (cel animation vs digital animation vs 3Dcgi vs. oil-on-glass vs cutout animation vs pupper animation vs stop motion animation etc...)

I don't think anyone is doing the latter, but unlike 'style' it would theoretically be realistic as a criteria and enforcable without endless debates about every single title. And 'Anime' has always meant (in the west) that something is from Japan/south-east asia, so that's still what the term means. It as utterly irrelevant how many anime fans enjoy western animation like Avatar or Castlevania, the definition of anime is still the same.


So yeah, it has nothing to do with my opinion (which is that all of animation is one medium), it's just about what works realistically for a DB like MAL and what 'anime' as a term has always meant. You can't just randomly change things for no real reason.



Which brings me to me counter question @Breadwinnerr
Why do you even want Avatar to be seen as an anime? What difference does it make to your happiness and well-being? Why can't you just enjoy something western, created by westerners for westerners, once in a while without trying to attribute it to Japan? Where is the problem? I never understand the issue in the first place, what do people hope to gain by labeling Avatar as an anime instead of a 'cartoon'?

If it's just because you want it on MAL, then see above for why it is not feasible to change the MAL guidelines to something vague and subjective that can't be objectively defined.
And any other reason for wanting Avatar to be seen as anime is just silly and usually boils down to 'I'm such a weeb that I can't enjoy anything western in good conscience so I have to pretend western stuff I like is actually japanese to be able to appreciate it'. In which case, get over it, you're being ridiculous.

That's an overkill, you didn't need to do that.
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:39 AM
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No it's not. It's better than all of them.
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:44 AM

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It's 2020. I thought this topic died years ago.
I really enjoy those "helicopter ride" memes
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:47 AM

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chair-sama said:
That's an overkill, you didn't need to do that.
no no no, let him do his thing
if it's not happening now it might not happen ever
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:51 AM

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chair-sama said:

That's an overkill, you didn't need to do that.

There's a certain magic in beating somebody in a way that's so one-sided

This is a good experience for everyone involved, I'm sure

 
Nov 14, 2019 11:54 AM

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God, will someone just shoot me please?
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:57 AM

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In 2120 Avatar still won't be an anime. By then the live action will be forgotten mercifully.
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:57 AM

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Avatar was terrible. Cliche story and characters copied directly from a direct to DVD release you would find at a dollar store. It just looked pretty so idiots thought it was great.

Calling it an anime is an insult to the universe.

Edit: I am an idiot, I saw the name "Avatar" and instantly thought the OP was referring to the schlock by James Cameron, lol. The above statement might still be applicable though......
Modified by DiscoDespot, Nov 14, 2019 12:55 PM
 
Nov 14, 2019 11:58 AM

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Manaban said:
chair-sama said:

That's an overkill, you didn't need to do that.

There's a certain magic in beating somebody in a way that's so one-sided

This is a good experience for everyone involved, I'm sure

Agreed. @Pullman out here spitting facts and educating the younglings. He's doing a service.
 
Nov 14, 2019 12:04 PM

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Anime is Japanese. The Japanese made animation worth a damn. And now people are trying to hijack the community.

Look, if you like animation in general, not just Anime, then make a community space for that. Problem is, there's no community like the Anime community for animation in general is there? You know why? Japan has done animation better than the rest of the world for a long time. And more and more people who don't give a fuck about Japan have come in like refugees from the barren wasteland of western animation trying to change the culture (little spicy political commentary for you there ;).

You're being a straight-up asshole by trying to change the definition of the object of passion for this community. There may be others who agree with you, but there are 10 of us for every 1 of you. Not that it should matter. NO ONE has ANY right to change the definitions that ANY fandom is made from. It's far more healthy for seperate fandoms to spring up so that peoples individual tastes are better catered for.

Also, my God, are people still doing that argument where they start by saying "it's current year why are we still doing [thing I don't like]"? Seriously - and I mean seriously - fuck off with that. New is not always better.
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Nov 14, 2019 12:04 PM

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Didn't know anyone used "current year" unironically in the past 5 years.

YossaRedMage said:
And more and more people who don't give a fuck about Japan have come in like refugees from the barren wasteland of western animation trying to change the culture (little spicy political commentary for you there ;).


My, such subtlety.

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Nov 14, 2019 12:17 PM
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Pyro said:
Manaban said:

There's a certain magic in beating somebody in a way that's so one-sided

This is a good experience for everyone involved, I'm sure

Agreed. @Pullman out here spitting facts and educating the younglings. He's doing a service.
You have to admit how interesting speaking about this topic is on the dawn of 2020, I’m amazed I’ve received such a reaction.
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Nov 14, 2019 12:17 PM

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It's 2020. Avatar is not an anime.

and that's good.

As always I agree with Pullman opinion.
 
Nov 14, 2019 12:19 PM

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Breadwinnerr said:
You have to admit how interesting speaking about this topic is on the dawn of 2020, I’m amazed I’ve received such a reaction.

I don't think anybody has to admit that it's interesting, because you can be completely incorrect about how you're defining something regardless of the year it is.

 
Nov 14, 2019 12:22 PM

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it's still better than 90% of the schlock out there and that's the more important point tbh
Modified by Aure0lin, Nov 14, 2019 12:32 PM
"I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says.
I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby".
"She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other."
 
Nov 14, 2019 12:22 PM

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Orhunaa said:
Didn't know anyone used "current year" unironically in the past 5 years.

YossaRedMage said:
And more and more people who don't give a fuck about Japan have come in like refugees from the barren wasteland of western animation trying to change the culture (little spicy political commentary for you there ;).


My, such subtlety.

Never have been very good at that. But hey, I think that's a solid analogy. It's like western media is this war-torn region where various extreme ideologies have waged war so the ground is no longer fertile and shit's all fucked up, so people have fled for greener pastures of anime. Unfortunately they bring many of those extreme ideologies with them which infects the culture in their new home. More people means more money for the economy (anime "industry" (execs, not animators ofc) in the anlogy if you're not following) so Anime welcomes the new people depsite the baggage which harms the average anime fan that was there before the flood of new people.

...

Ok that analogy is straight fire and you can't convince me otherwise.
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Recently Finished: Houkago Saikoro Club (7), Symphogear G (9), Choyoyu (5), Gekihatsu Boy (5), Honzuki (9), Strawberry Panic (9), Beastars (8), No Guns Life (7), Symphogear GX (9), High Score Girl II (8)

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Nov 14, 2019 12:23 PM

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YossaRedMage said:
Anime is Japanese. The Japanese made animation worth a damn. And now people are trying to hijack the community.

Look, if you like animation in general, not just Anime, then make a community space for that. Problem is, there's no community like the Anime community for animation in general is there? You know why? Japan has done animation better than the rest of the world for a long time. And more and more people who don't give a fuck about Japan have come in like refugees from the barren wasteland of western animation trying to change the culture (little spicy political commentary for you there ;).

You're being a straight-up asshole by trying to change the definition of the object of passion for this community. There may be others who agree with you, but there are 10 of us for every 1 of you. Not that it should matter. NO ONE has ANY right to change the definitions that ANY fandom is made from. It's far more healthy for seperate fandoms to spring up so that peoples individual tastes are better catered for.

Also, my God, are people still doing that argument where they start by saying "it's current year why are we still doing [thing I don't like]"? Seriously - and I mean seriously - fuck off with that. New is not always better.
Oh wow, man you've got to calm down...


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Nov 14, 2019 12:24 PM
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The west used the word "anime" to differentiate Japanese animation, else they would have just stuck to calling everything cartoon or animation
 
Nov 14, 2019 12:25 PM

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1. It's still 2019

2. Avatar is kinda anime. Because the art style kinda fits. It's more anime than Teen Titans, but less anime than RWBY. RWBY is definitely anime.
avatar image source (note: not my artwork): http://atelier-ps3.jp/escha-logy/anime/character4.html
The character is Linca from Atelier Escha & Logy, specifically the anime version.
 
Nov 14, 2019 12:27 PM
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Breadwinnerr said:
I know I’m just clutching at straws here, I was just caught in a cognitive dissonance of somekind - hitting my head against the wall, trying to come up with a *Clear-Cut* definition of what anime is - a definition that is completely free of any loopholes...Do I really care if Avatar is not considered an anime - No, not really. Do I think what defines an anime as an anime is somewhat vague given the large plethora of anime - Yeah, yeah I do. Just trying to see what others think, Avatar was just an example I could’ve wrote Ben 10😂
Even after the conversations, the only real conclusion I’ve been able to reach without doubting myself is: Anime is whatever the community deems it to be. Maybe my perception of that will change over time. Also no one said anything about destroying the definition of anime so let’s chill.😂
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange
 
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