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| Pretty solid. Basically just introduced the new character and developed their relationship a bit. Some parts definitely felt like they were more fleshed out in the LN, but it's whatever. Assuming there will be lots more development later that won't be rushed I can still see myself getting attached to the pair. Looks like we ended on a point where Raphtalia has basically come to trust Naofumi, so no real ideas where the next episode will go. Probably just some more training and exploring. Maybe see what the other heroes are up to. From the op looks like he will get some other animal girls to join the group. Guessing they will all be slaves he "rescues." |
| Fantastic sucessor episode to the last one. Waiting weekly will kill me, I will make to start reading that LN ASAP. Just gave ep3 a try, via reading what comes next on the manga, nice stuff indeed. My impression is that Manga vol1 and 2 cover LN vol 1, whereas we may see 4 anime episodes to cover the first LN volume (episode 1 and 2 adapted all the content of the manga volume 1). |
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| Raphtalia is cute af, and I also really like the grim elements of the story too - nothing better than a good dark fantasy. Looks like my strategy of watching an anime solely based off a cute girl has not failed me here. |
 What's the difference? |
nightcrawlercyp said: If I do not speak the truth the stones will. 1. everyone had slaves until about 100 years ago 2. there are types of slavery except chattel slavery, i.e. debt slavery, wage slavery, scrip slavery, land attached slavery, sex slavery. And I believe debt slavery is the worst because you hope that you will make enough to pay your debt and escape but many times the system is rigged against you 3. black slaves where bough in america from black slave owners from africa 4. Muslims were the biggest slave owners in history and they had all types of slaves. What is interesting in arabic the word for black person also means slave 5. europeans freed their slaves freely and the former slaves live much better lives they would have lived in Africa as free men. Even as slaves they lived better lives. 6. just because some behavior is morally wrong does not mean it cannot be analyzed I was jokingly applauding you if that wasn't clear |
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LuciferIAm said: It was clear. I just added more details just in case. I like to be thorough.nightcrawlercyp said: If I do not speak the truth the stones will. 1. everyone had slaves until about 100 years ago 2. there are types of slavery except chattel slavery, i.e. debt slavery, wage slavery, scrip slavery, land attached slavery, sex slavery. And I believe debt slavery is the worst because you hope that you will make enough to pay your debt and escape but many times the system is rigged against you 3. black slaves where bough in america from black slave owners from africa 4. Muslims were the biggest slave owners in history and they had all types of slaves. What is interesting in arabic the word for black person also means slave 5. europeans freed their slaves freely and the former slaves live much better lives they would have lived in Africa as free men. Even as slaves they lived better lives. 6. just because some behavior is morally wrong does not mean it cannot be analyzed I was jokingly applauding you if that wasn't clear |
| Good episode, nice op. Seems the girl is had a sad story, she was the victim of "waves". Shield hero is a good guy, hes just awkward person. |
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| Firo on OP cute af! She was like dancing before turned into bird |
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| Seems okay-ish, I guess. Expect a bit more edginess later. |
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-Stray said: i read the manga and they skipped a lot of parts and connected with one another. feeling a bit rushed.Great 2nd episode, they covered a lot of stuffs, tho I kinda wished we saw this part. I guess you guys can check the img above since the anime probably wont have it. |
| if it is not controversial, the only thing they talk about anime is the new waifu, you know that an anime is worth nothing if it only depends on the girls to subsist. this is exactly the same as darlingXX |
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| "my companion might scream at night"... >.> MUST PROTECC! |
| Having read the manga I still found this part a bit weird progression wise, especially with the episode having faster pacing. Fortunately because I know what will happen with the servant-master relation, I'm hopeful they will deliver. Overall good episode |
TriZenJan 18, 2019 7:08 AM
| Raphtalia is really cute. |
| Can mew imyagine an imyaginyary mewnyagerie mewnyager imyagining mewnyaging an imyaginyary mewnyagerie? |
| This anime: Shock therapy is very beneficial for young children with psychological disorders such as PTSD. It builds character! Also creates stockholm syndrome which can be turned easily into real attachment. Feeding then after tort...I mean after healing sessions helps too. Me: Whaaaaat... PS At this point Tate no Yuusha could go dark, like Berserk dark but here this is painted as positive thing? |
alshuJan 18, 2019 7:52 AM
| Pretty good so far. Just a bit fast-paced. Really cool OP, but thought they just showed half of the story in it ... cool but a bit weird. |
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| I liked this episode more than 1st. Looking at the development it might be really enjoyable anime. I expected some overly edgy shit, but it doesn't seem to go that way for now. |
| The last episode they've built up the semi-humans to be this barbaric mindless race of monsters that knew no peace, by this episode, it looks like they are some well-established race that knows how to talk and act like humans, which only makes the slavery thing even more messed up. I'm very excited to see them go at the same pace, and eventually meet up with the rest of the heroes and actually impress them. The opening sequence gives off a lot of detail, I wish it didn't, and by what it packed in, there will be some crazy action coming soon enough, being a shield hero might just be the most badass position yet. |
| manga reader, pacing was terrible, too fast/rushed... in the manga, you see Ralphtalia very afraid and trembling in the beginning and notice she's been traumatized by her previous masters. she was very puzzled by being treated with care. Thank Kevin Penkin for saving the scene with the 2 headed dog... but it still could have been better. |
| After events from the previous episode, our main character became very harsh, though it is understable - he is on a margin of society now because of false rape accusations and he needs literally to go 200% of his potential to get power and money to save the world. Raphtalia is so cute! Good companion, and Naofumi can finally have someone nearby who is capable of attacking. It was so sad to learn about her fate, though. Poor Raphtalia. T__T Naofumi was harsh at first, but he changed after he saw her potential (and well... his mood is understable, as for as I wrote before - his position is rather depressing) and well.. I think he pitied her. Desire to care about her not only as a party's member, but also as a friend, was seen - at least by me - in Naofumi's behaviour. I thought this episode would be a little bit boring, going with "new character's introduction without much action". I'm glad it was different and was in fact a very good one. Not as good as the previous one, but still very good. |
| Naofumi needs her to fight. It's the one thing he needs from her and it's why he bought a slave in the first place. The command seal is absolute. If he wants her to fight(and she refuses) then it will go off whether he wants it to or not. Regardless of his intention during the double headed dog, he was willing to let her run away from it all at the expense of his own life. This was when she was fully committed to helping Naofumi and I imagine the command seal will rarely if ever need to be used again. It really doesn't matter whether you consider it torture or not. That's not the point. The point is that Raphs attachment to Naofumi has nothing to do with her being a sadomasochist and it's ridiculous to think otherwise. |
BarnaldJan 19, 2019 4:28 AM
Thread Cleaned. Please refrain from arguing in the thread as it will only result in derailment and flame. As a reminder, please refrain from posting single phrase responses. Anime Series Episode Discussion Rules Single phrase responses (e.g., "Good episode") do not contribute nor promote discussion and will be removed without notice. |
BarnaldMar 24, 2019 7:20 AM
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| I enjoyed this episode even more than the last one because of Raphthalia and her happy meal. Naofumi is awesome and I can't wait to see him become stronger. I'll probably pick up the manga later since I'm reading a lot of manga and non-manga/light novrks (basically regular books) and have yet to catch up with my current list. Honestly, I don't know why people are upset about the episode. Perhaps the concept of slavery? lol They are many series which are much worse. Anyways what I still dont get is whether he is literally in another world or is he playing a game or is he in a world that is played like a game? I dont even know what I'm saying. |
| 臭い- |
Fede_5000 said: nah this is much better than franx, love the main char he's awesome, the world setting and rpg elements are cool so far. Very interested to see how the battles with the waves go and if he can change the opinions of everyone about the tate no yuushaif it is not controversial, the only thing they talk about anime is the new waifu, you know that an anime is worth nothing if it only depends on the girls to subsist. this is exactly the same as darlingXX |
 アニメの幼女を見てるのが楽しいぜ |
| Not a bad second episode. Like the relationship between Naofumi and Raphtalia. |
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Killuan said: It really doesn't matter whether you consider it torture or not. Not only is it the point, it's the only thing worth thinking about. Sadomasochistic relationships are not healthy, and they are not to be idealized. They are a sickness. He punishes her, she responds with promises of obedience and smiles. What we have here is a demented relationship based on pain and utility. Keep in mind, when he fed her he said he needed her to have strength for the fights. Not because of some familial love between master and servant, or father figure and daughter figure, no, it's because "I need you to be useful to me". The only bone I could throw you is he gave her head pats. Okay. Head pats. Not really 100% on that overriding the blood seal torture, but sure. He patted her head. Good relationship very wow. malMaxi said: There are two problems here, one for you, one for your critics. The problem for you is that the ability of a benevolent master to be good for the slave is objectively true and can be depicted in works of fiction (and has, in fact, been depicted in many works of fiction). That's actually a really good point- it's quite thoughtful, and I appreciate it. The idea that, for example, that an animal that lives in captivity will live twice as long as an animal that lives in the wild. This is what I assume you're going for, anyways. It's a fair point. The show is quick to acknowledge that Naofumi's behavior is disgusting. The blacksmith himself says he's not going to die painlessly. That's good. Perhaps Naofumi will grow as a person and eventually realize that 'wait, this is all wrong', then the arc might be acceptable, despite the growing pains. I have two problems with this argument 1. Naofumi is already shown to be a decent human being in the first episode. He was betrayed by society, true, but all it takes is one rape accusation and all his morals and sense of self is completely broken. Does he not see himself in this girl? She too was taken advantage of by society, kept around for the sake of her usefulness as a slave, not for her value as a person. The change in Naofumi's character provides whiplash for me: he should have immediately related to this girl. Instead, he is hurt by society, so he immediately becomes this society. I'm sure he'll realize this over the course of the show, but that he didn't immediately just makes it seem like poor character writing for a protagonist who purportedly had a moral core just one episode ago. This is a lesser complaint, but still worth mentioning. 2. The Raccoon girl actually enjoys her punishment. That one line in the anime (I don't know if I linked it in this thread), where she says "Master, I'll fight for you, so please don't throw me away!". This is the essence of sadomasochism. The problem isn't just that a benevolent master might be good for a slave (which you correctly point out), it's that Naofumi isn't benevolent. He regularly tortures the girl for not obeying his commands. Buys her because she's cheap, not because he sympathizes with her. And he forces this traumatized child into fighting a monster that looks exactly like the one that killed her parents. This is cruel behavior. It is not benevolent. And then she loves him for it. |
TalconJan 19, 2019 9:23 AM
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Talcon said: Killuan said: It really doesn't matter whether you consider it torture or not. Not only is it the point, it's the only thing worth thinking about. Sadomasochistic relationships are not healthy, and they are not to be idealized. They are a sickness. He punishes her, she responds with promises of obedience and smiles. What we have here is a demented relationship based on pain and utility. Keep in mind, when he fed her he said he needed her to have strength for the fights. Not because of some familial love between master and servant, or father figure and daughter figure, no, it's because "I need you to be useful to me". The only bone I could throw you is he gave her head pats. Okay. Head pats. Not really 100% on that overriding the blood seal torture, but sure. He patted her head. Good relationship very wow. malMaxi said: There are two problems here, one for you, one for your critics. The problem for you is that the ability of a benevolent master to be good for the slave is objectively true and can be depicted in works of fiction (and has, in fact, been depicted in many works of fiction). That's actually a really good point- it's quite thoughtful, and I appreciate it. The idea that, for example, that an animal that lives in captivity will live twice as long as an animal that lives in the wild. This is what I assume you're going for, anyways. It's a fair point. The show is quick to acknowledge that Naofumi's behavior is disgusting. The blacksmith himself says he's not going to die painlessly. That's good. Perhaps Naofumi will grow as a person and eventually realize that 'wait, this is all wrong', then the arc might be acceptable, despite the growing pains. I have two problems with this argument 1. Naofumi is already shown to be a decent human being in the first episode. He was betrayed by society, true, but all it takes is one rape accusation and all his morals and sense of self is completely broken. Does he not see himself in this girl? She too was taken advantage of by society, kept around for the sake of her usefulness as a slave, not for her value as a person. The change in Naofumi's character provides whiplash for me: he should have immediately related to this girl. Instead, he is hurt by society, so he immediately becomes this society. I'm sure he'll realize this over the course of the show, but that he didn't immediately just makes it seem like poor character writing for a protagonist who purportedly had a moral core just one episode ago. This is a lesser complaint, but still worth mentioning. 2. The Raccoon girl actually enjoys her punishment. That one line in the anime (I don't know if I linked it in this thread), where she says "Master, I'll fight for you, so please don't throw me away!". This is the essence of sadomasochism. The problem isn't just that a benevolent master might be good for a slave (which you correctly point out), it's that Naofumi isn't benevolent. He regularly tortures the girl for not obeying his commands. Buys her because she's cheap, not because he sympathizes with her. And he forces this traumatized child into fighting a monster that looks exactly like the one that killed her parents. This is cruel behavior. It is not benevolent. And then she loves him for it. Did you really save your response so that you could re-post it again knowing the thread will get cleaned? Were you the one who reported the thread in the first place? I smell some serious trolling here. Raph did not react well to pain, that is a fact. She reacted well to all of the nice things he did for her. Naofumi's intentions don't matter as much as Raphs perception of them. From her perspective, he is treating her well. He objectively made her life better and even saved her from a potentially deadly condition. That is what matters to her. He needs her and he is using her, but he treats Raph in a way that makes her feel both gratified and content. If you can't see why an abused slave girl would become attached to him then you're either trolling or intentionally looking in the wrong places. |
KilluanJan 19, 2019 9:48 AM
Daniel_Naumov said: Yet you keep providing him desired friction and attention . Dogs avoid touching something when on impact they are dealt electricity. It takes them several times, but ultimately they learn. How many more dirtied pages will it take here? It was a hunch. The discussion for this episode is virtually over, so it's not such a big deal, is it? It's difficult for me to let his ridiculous notion be left unchallenged. |
KilluanJan 19, 2019 10:17 AM
| the introduction and character background are ok, it rather too emotional, but i guess this is the best way to doing it. dont lewd racoon loli |
 MAL score and most user-based rating system are all joke, Imagine trusting plebs and hivemind. Find users who have good sense and rating and use them as a reference. Check my guide to rate Your taste is trash. Cope, seethe, mald |
Killuan said: Did you really save your response so that you could re-post it again knowing the thread will get cleaned? Yes, malMaxi provides a good argument, and I'm interested in continuing my discussion with him. Killuan said: Were you the one who reported the thread in the first place? No, but would that be a bad thing if I did? Insults have no place on this forum. I was warned just the same as you. Killuan said: I smell some serious trolling here. If you feel I'm continuing in this discussion not for the benefit of a discussion's sake, but for upsetting people for my own enjoyment, I invite you to cease responding to my posts. Any such further meta discussion about my motivations in this thread will be ignored. Killuan said: Raph did not react well to pain, that is a fact. She reacted well to all of the nice things he did for her. Naofumi's intentions don't matter as much as Raphs perception of them. From her perspective, he is treating her well. Google: Stockholm Syndrome Killuan said: He objectively made her life better and even saved her from a potentially deadly condition. That is what matters to her. He needs her and he is using her, but he treats Raph in a way that makes her feel both gratified and content. If you can't see why an abused slave girl would become attached to him then you're either trolling or intentionally looking in the wrong places. The crux of your argument seems to be that because she used to be treated much worse than she is now, that she should be grateful for the punishment she is now experiencing. This, too, is a sadomasochistic belief. When an abusive boyfriend beats his girl, he may say "Did you see the pigsty I saved her from?". This is not a defense of the protagonist. In fact, it is a further indictment of him, because he sees the horrible treatment of slaves in this world, and he is content with perpetuating it. You do not get good boy points because you pat her head and feed her as you also torture her. This last point is very important, so please bear it in mind: If he really wanted to respect her as an individual and cease the cycle of abuse, he would have freed her from slavery, and asked her if she wanted to join him. As a reminder, if you believe my arguments are made in bad faith, you are free to end the discussion on your terms. But I ask: if I was trolling, why would I invite you to leave? |
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Talcon said: Google: Stockholm Syndrome That doesn't work here. Raph was not taken hostage from her family by him, she was taken from a slave trader who treated her far worse than he does. She was terrified when she first met Naofumi, but she opened up to him after the many things he did to accommodate her well being. Raph has no better alternative. her parents are dead, she's a slave, and the general population treat demi-humans like garbage. Compared to that, Naofumi is a blessing to her. The crux of your argument seems to be that because she used to be treated much worse than she is now, that she should be grateful for the punishment she is now experiencing. This, too, is a sadomasochistic belief. When an abusive boyfriend beats his girl, he may say "Did you see the pigsty I saved her from?". This is not a defense of the protagonist. In fact, it is a further indictment of him, because he sees the horrible treatment of slaves in this world, and he is content with perpetuating it. You do not get good boy points because you pat her head and feed her as you also torture her. First off, sadomasochism is a fetish and it's very insulting to say that a little girl is a sadomasochist because she wants to stay with the person who objectively treats her the best. What do you think will happen if Naofumi throws her away? Raph is very clearly afraid of pain. This point was proven multiple times throughout the episode. This is nothing like a women who chooses to stay with her abusive boyfriend. This isn't 2019. This is a fantasy world where slavery is the norm and demi-humans are thought of as mere beasts used for labor, sexual deviancy and to be used as fodder in war. This last point is very important, so please bear it in mind: If he really wanted to respect her as an individual and cease the cycle of abuse, he would have freed her from slavery, and asked her if she wanted to join him. As I said before, this has nothing to do with him. This has to do with her perception of him. Naofumi has grown some type of bond with her but his motive is still to make her fight because he can not. It's plausible she would have still fought for him without the command seal but he has trust issues and he is considered a rapist by the general populace. He wanted someone that could not disobey him and that's why he chose a slave. Naofumi wants revenge and he needs a fighter to survive the waves of battle to come. Raph was originally supposed to be a mere tool in his arsenal, but she grew on him and now it's clear that he thinks more of her than just that. He takes care of her, and in return she fights for him. It's a win/win because in a world devoid of compassion for demi-humans, it's the best she can hope for. As a reminder, if you believe my arguments are made in bad faith, you are free to end the discussion on your terms. But I ask: if I was trolling, why would I invite you to leave? I think you're trolling only because I can't rationalize how you think Raph is a sadomasochist because she chooses the best life out of a long list of shittier alternatives. |
KilluanJan 19, 2019 12:05 PM
| Clearly it’s not a healthy relationship if you look at it purely on paper, but you crippled your own decent points by saying that sadism or masochism is a factor. As stated previously, she does not enjoy the pain or being forced to work. Even by being thankful for a better lot, she still does not enjoy the pain that comes with it. Deciding to stand by him may indeed have some power imbalance, yes, but being grateful for less pain/hardship is not equivalent to enjoying the pain/hardship she still has to deal with. |
Killuan said: That doesn't work here. Raph was not taken hostage from her family by him, she was taken from a slave trader who treated her far worse than he does. She was terrified when she first met Naofumi, but she opened up to him after the many things he did to accommodate her well being. Raph has no better alternative. her parents are dead, she's a slave, and the general population treat demi-humans like garbage. Compared to that, Naofumi is a blessing to her. A few points: 1. Stockholm Syndrome isn't exclusively for those who are kidnapped. But even if I was wrong, and it is, is slavery not a form of kidnapping? Holding one against one's will? 2. The many things he did to accommodate her? Like, forcing her to fight against her will? Electrocuting her when she refuses? Making her believe she'll be thrown away if she's not useful? Is the fact that he feeds her kids meals going to nullify that? Even wicked slave owners feed their slaves. They have to, they'll die without food. And sorry, I don't think the fact that he was mindful enough to notice she was staring at the kids meals makes him a compassionate person. You can mention any other thing he did to make her feel more comfortable. It matters not. I'd put any example you threw at me into the bin. Because, and again this is very important: All of this goodwill feeding and head pats still takes place under the pretext that she is a slave and she is his property. She has no agency of her own and any refusal to play along will have her discarded. Of course she's learning to love him. She has to, she'll be thrown away and die otherwise. It's her coping mechanism. That's Stockholm Syndrome. Killuan said: First off, sadomasochism is a fetish and it's very insulting to say that a little girl is a sadomasochist The love of pain and the love of giving pain is not exclusively a sexual gratification. Killuan said: I think you're trolling <ignoring rest of post> Just gonna zone out whenever I'm accused of bad faith. There's this weird double think you have where you want to believe that I'm both trolling in order to upset you, but also that I have intelligent arguments worth debunking. NoradTwo said: Clearly it’s not a healthy relationship if you look at it purely on paper, but you crippled your own decent points by saying that sadism or masochism is a factor. As stated previously, she does not enjoy the pain or being forced to work. Even by being thankful for a better lot, she still does not enjoy the pain that comes with it. Deciding to stand by him may indeed have some power imbalance, yes, but being grateful for less pain/hardship is not equivalent to enjoying the pain/hardship she still has to deal with. If you come to love those that inflict pain on you, you are a masochist. There is no better word to describe it. I stand by the characterization. |
BarnaldJan 20, 2019 5:05 AM
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| Nice introduction to Raphtalia and I'm liking her relationship with our main lead. |
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| My closing thoughts then, she derives no pleasure from the pain he causes her, which is the definition of masochism. She didn’t come to care for him because of the pain, but rather the good (from her perspective at least) he did for her. That makes it an unhealthy relationship, but not masochism, purely from a definition standpoint (unless there’s a definition I missed). |
Talcon said: A few points: 1. Stockholm Syndrome isn't exclusively for those who are kidnapped. But even if I was wrong, and it is, is slavery not a form of kidnapping? Holding one against one's will? Except Naofumi didn't make Raph a slave. She was a slave which he bought. Naofumi isn't even holding Raph against her will. The slave trader was holding Raph against her will. Naofumi gives her an ultimatum... Fight for me, or I won't be able to take care of you anymore. Both the audience and Raph know and understand that an orphaned Raph with no one to take care of her would be far worse off than being taken care of by Naofumi and fighting for him in return. 2. The many things he did to accommodate her? Like, forcing her to fight against her will? Electrocuting her when she refuses? Making her believe she'll be thrown away if she's not useful? Is the fact that he feeds her kids meals going to nullify that? Even wicked slave owners feed their slaves. They have to, they'll die without food. And sorry, I don't think the fact that he was mindful enough to notice she was staring at the kids meals makes him a compassionate person. 1.) Feeding her well 2.) Giving her a place to sleep safely 3.) Dealing with her nightmare in a comforting way. 4.) Always taking the damage from attacks so that Raph doesn't have to. 5.) Giving her the opportunity to run away from the two headed dog at the expense of his own life 6.) The ball 7.) Caring about her physical appearance(haircut) 8.) Being understanding when she wet the bed. 9.) Curing her from a potentially deadly condition. I could go on. yeah they feed them...with bread and milk. They certainly don't spend more on their slaves meal than they do on their own. Raph was genuinely puzzled why Naofumi ordered her a fulfilling meal. In a perfect world he would adopt her and let her live her childhood the way every child should be allowed to live. However, this world is far from perfect and he doesn't need a child, he needs a fighter. The power imbalance is there but it's still become a mutually beneficial relationship where they both seek to profit from. You can mention any other thing he did to make her feel more comfortable. It matters not. I'd put any example you threw at me into the bin. Because, and again this is very important: All of this goodwill feeding and head pats still takes place under the pretext that she is a slave and she is his property. She has no agency of her own and any refusal to play along will have her discarded. Of course she's learning to love him. She has to, she'll be thrown away and die otherwise. It's her coping mechanism. That's Stockholm Syndrome. You need to stop comparing a fantasy setting with real life. And then maybe you wouldn't be so far off the mark with your assumptions. Should Naofumi pay for and adopt all of the slaves or free them? Because that sounds like where you're trying to come from. The fact that Raph is afraid of being thrown away proves that Naofumi is the best possible scenario for her. This isn't a coping mechanism for her, it's reality. There is no perfect life for her as a demi-human in this world setting. So comparatively she understand that Naofumi is treating her as an actual person and not some savage that's expendable and easily replaceable. The love of pain and the love of giving pain is not exclusively a sexual gratification. I'm not even going to argue this point. I'd like you to provide a single frame from the image that implies she enjoys pain. |
BarnaldJan 20, 2019 5:04 AM
| First false rape accusation and now slavery to trigger everyone and cause "Controversy" It's Amazing how much Controversy two anime episode can make. This anime is really something ~ |
Killuan said: Except Naofumi didn't make Raph a slave. She was a slave which he bought. Naofumi isn't even holding Raph against her will. The slave trader was holding Raph against her will. Naofumi gives her an ultimatum... Fight for me, or I won't be able to take care of you anymore. This exact same train of thought could be applied to slave-owners in the United States. Let's go through it point by point, shall we? "Naofumi didn't make Raph a slave" Response: Many Americans who owned plantations didn't travel to Africa themselves "She was a slave which he bought" Plantation owners bought the slaves "Naofumi isn't even holding Raph against her will, the slave trader was" So too were not plantation owners holding slaves against their will- until they bought them. At that point, they were "Naofumi gives her an ultimatum... Fight for me, or I won't be able to take care of you anymore" Plantation owners gave their slaves an ultimatum... plow my fields for me, or I won't be able to take care of you anymore. Do you understand why this is a disgusting argument? And before you hit me with the "are you seriously comparing x and y...". No, it's an analogy, to illustrate a point. Killuan said: 1.) Feeding her well 2.) Giving her a place to sleep safely 3.) Dealing with her nightmare in a comforting way. 4.) Always taking the damage from attacks so that Raph doesn't have to. 5.) Giving her the opportunity to run away from it all at the expense of his own life 6.) The ball 7.) Caring about her physical appearance(haircut) 8.) Being understanding when she wet the bed. I already conceded he did good things for her, and preempted this argument by saying it all didn't matter. You could have edited this down, but it doesn't matter too much. I don't begrudge you for it, mistakes happen. Killuan said: Should Naofumi pay for and adopt all of the slaves or free them? Because that sounds like where you're trying to come from I am saying Naofumi should have bought her and not gone through with the blood seal. Tell her the truth: "I am a legendary hero, but I cannot fight on my own. You don't have to fight for me if you don't want, but if you do we can save the world, and I can care for you further. No matter what, I will not hurt for disobeying my commands, but I need you to know that I can't do this without you." Something to that effect would have been nice. Killuan said: I'm not even going to argue this point. I'd like you to provide a single frame from the image that implies she enjoys pain. She enjoys a relationship in which she is given pain. This is a masochistic tendency, yes Killuan said: It's okay i'm disappointed in myself. I don't understand you. I have no idea why you'd maintain I'm a troll, yet continue arguing with me. It's almost like you believe troll is just an insult, without any specific meaning? If you find yourself trapped in a conversation you no longer wish to be in, I can do you a solid and have this be the last message I share with you if you'd like. I don't need to be here if you don't want to be. This will be the last message I send to you concerning this topic. I hope you read and understand where I'm coming from, and that this is not a place of bad faith. Thank you for your time |
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Talcon said: In fact, it is a further indictment of him, because he sees the horrible treatment of slaves in this world, and he is content with perpetuating it. True. Naofumi adopts a very "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" attitude towards slavery. But you refuse to acknowledge the necessity Naofumi sees in doing so. You keep talking as if he still had to follow some universal moral code, to play hero even when he's in between a rock and a hard place. If he was still the happy-go-lucky dope that he was, then he probably would have cared. But I'll list some reasons why he saw fit not to care, and we can argue over them first: 1. He simply could not afford to care. He had to worry about himself first before worrying about loftier pursuits like the emancipation of slaves. I don't think I would blame anyone for behaving desperately in desperate situations. How desperate, you may ask? 2. Naofumi was simply running out of time. He was severely underleveled and underequipped, and the Second Wave was coming in less than a month. 3. Naofumi, at this point in the story, had developed severe trust issues and was traumatized by his experiences. This is not only the result of Myne's betrayal, but also the result of the denizens of Melromarc actively antagonizing him because he's the outcast hero (i.e group of shady dudes asking to join his party in episode 1). The anime somewhat glossed over this, but people trying to cheat or steal from him has been a daily occurrence since his betrayal. Hence, the slave seal was an extremely attractive prospect to him. Having a companion who cannot disobey or betray him was like a dream come true. I'd like to mention that this has more to do with the character's weakness than it has to do with the series' endorsement of slavery or anything. Does this justify his actions? No. He still did some extremely morally questionnable things, but it would be dumb for him to act like a saint even when he's in such a situation and mental state. Talcon said: This last point is very important, so please bear it in mind: If he really wanted to respect her as an individual and cease the cycle of abuse, he would have freed her from slavery, and asked her if she wanted to join him. This is half-true. Naofumi's inner monologues in the novels actually reveal that Naofumi's intial motives for buying Raphtalia was to use her as an outlet for venting his frustration and anger. He chose her specifically out of the two or three cheapest slaves available back in that tent so that he can pretend that he had enslaved Myne. He initially had zero intention of freeing her or anything of the like. However, you claim that he should have freed her out of moral obligation. That makes no sense. Even if he had wanted to free her, he probably wouldn't done it then have because that would have been a dumb move. He just spent all his savings on her had to level up to survive somehow. What conceivable reason could he have had to release her apart from following some lofty moral code that you are dictating? What if, god forbid, this sick, scared and traumatized slave girl refuses to join with him? What should he do then? Roll over and die just to protect his moral ideals? That said though, you should stick around for a few more episodes. I don't know if the next few episodes are going to change your mind, but they should at least give you some resolution to this burning moral indictment that you have for the protagonist. What...? I think you're really reaching for this whole sadomasochism thing. |
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| Why are people so triggered over how Naofumi treat Raph? It acknowledges within the show that Naofumi attitude is actually really disgusting and the characters even call him out on it once they see him mistreat Raph and Naofumi is self-aware of that as well but he keep doing it anyway because that the only option opened for him at the moment. It's only natural for Raph to be happy with Naofumi if you consider the alternative she has. Sure, Naofumi isn't the nicest guy around, but he's still better than any other option she could take. Naofumi's intentions were clear from the very beginning, he did not buy Raph to play house with her, he bought her to fight for him and as long she's doing her job he will take care of her and keep her company. Whatever you think if what Naofumi is doing is "Morally wrong" or not doesn't matter considering the situation he's in and he doesn't even think of himself as a hero in the first place. |
Devil_SlayerJan 19, 2019 1:42 PM
Talcon said: This exact same train of thought could be applied to slave-owners in the United States. Let's go through it point by point, shall we? "Naofumi didn't make Raph a slave" Response: Many Americans who owned plantations didn't travel to Africa themselves "She was a slave which he bought" Plantation owners bought the slaves "Naofumi isn't even holding Raph against her will, the slave trader was" So too were not plantation owners holding slaves against their will- until they bought them. At that point, they were "Naofumi gives her an ultimatum... Fight for me, or I won't be able to take care of you anymore" Plantation owners gave their slaves an ultimatum... plow my fields for me, or I won't be able to take care of you anymore. I'm fairly certain that was not the ultimatum to slaves on plantations. It was plow my fields or i'll physically abuse you until you do. Run away slaves were given the death penalty. That was part of the slavers code. And that's only one of the multitude of other inhumane codes. Do you understand why this is a disgusting argument? And before you hit me with the "are you seriously comparing x and y...". No, it's an analogy, to illustrate a point. I'm portraying reality. Idealism has no place in a world setting where slavery is a perfectly acceptable means of labor. I already conceded he did good things for her, and preempted this argument by saying it all didn't matter. You could have edited this down, but it doesn't matter too much. I don't begrudge you for it, mistakes happen. Then why are you so fixated on the few times the command seal caused her pain? The good clearly outweighs the bad. This is how Raph perceives it. He saved her life and gave her a purpose that goes far beyond the scope of being a toy for the satisfaction of old men. Killuan said: I am saying Naofumi should have bought her and not gone through with the blood seal. Tell her the truth: "I am a legendary hero, but I cannot fight on my own. You don't have to fight for me if you don't want, but if you do we can save the world, and I can care for you further. No matter what, I will not hurt for disobeying my commands, but I need you to know that I can't do this without you." Again, that's an idealistic viewpoint that has many holes. For one, Naofumi used the last bit of his currency to purchase her. He can't purchase a slave with an uncertainty that she will even be of any use to him. Not obeying commands is the equivalency to getting both or one of them killed. The command seal is there to ensure that doesn't happen. Had the first fight been that two-headed dog and not the rabbit and Raph still had an aversion to blood and there was no command seal then it's highly likely the both of them would have been screwed. Something to that effect would have been nice. It would have been nice, albeit unrealistic and impractical. She enjoys a relationship in which she is given pain. This is a masochistic tendency, yes The good outweighs the bad, the good part of the relationship is what she enjoys not the part with pain. |
| So we've gone from "Shield Hero normalizes slavery and misogyny" to "Raphtalia is a masochist"... I wonder what other hot takes will come about within the next few episodes. |
| Some really dumb people in this thread crying about nothing? I'm shocked... |
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Killuan said: Talcon said: ... The good outweighs the bad, the good part of the relationship is what she enjoys not the part with pain. There is no point making this argument with moral absolutists, they have assigned infinite weight to the act of engaging in slavery, no amount of good can ever outweigh the bad. According to this logic Naofumi can never be forgiven by the absolutists but further they will insist that Raphtalia cannot forgive him either. The next step in this chain of logic then is that if Raphtalia does forgive (or heavens forbid) come to care for Naofumi she must be mentally unstable (you'll probably see Stockholm Syndrome thrown around) or the author has simply made her like Naofumi against all common sense (this will align to the Hentai trope or "rape them until they enjoy it") You cannot win this argument so it's best we talk politely amongst ourselves and let those who cannot countenance any positive outcome from a negative starting point rage amongst themselves ;-) |
borderlinerJan 19, 2019 4:50 PM
| Quantum ille canis est in fenestra |
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