katsucats said: glassknuckles said: Nope. We watched the same one. It's just that plot points don't occur in isolation. He was beat up in that episode, but it's a cliche in anime that everyone gets strangely enamored with MC. MC has the power to "change people". Everyone comes to respect MC. But MC does not change. The core of his character does not realize his mistake. He swears that he'll get better as a reaction to the negative reaction of other characters, but it is not shown that he truly reflected and gets it. This is not just a Re:Zero thing. It is persistent across like 80% of all shounen. But it just happens to be particularly cringey in Re:Zero due to how far the apple is from the tree.wow, we must have watched a different show. It's exactly his white knighting and arrogance that is why nothing he does works. His white knighting for Emilia makes him a joke and gets him beat up. He gets killed constantly by making faulty assumptions about how others are going to react to him, and sometimes by just being unlucky. Maybe it's unrealistic that anyone would care about him, but on the whole he's hardly an invincible pillar of winning. You have your reasons for disliking Subaru as a character which is understandable. But these two points are incorrect on all accounts. Which is why he said you watched a different show. It is expected to dislike the character as he does indeed have that nice-guy-gets-pussy mentaliy from the beginning (which then the author proceeds to hammer down) . He is made aware of it in episode 13 but doesn't want to admit to it and therefore, becomes more vengeful to those around him. It's in episode 18 that he self-reflects on his actions and decides he needs to start a change. Which he even admits to again in the finale. Was this cringey? Yea it can appear to be so. This character development hardly even falls in shounen category. It's alright to hate a show like Re:Zero as I don't intend to change your opinion on that, but do that after fully seeing what the show offered. |
KreatorXSep 23, 2018 4:05 AM
 Truly a Divine Comedy  |
| @Somali_Strawhat None of that is a "promise to the reader". Yes they do have character development, but a series never "promises" something to the audience. I don't understand what that is about. Also you got one thing wrong. The case of Shield Hero isn't (negative) character development, but rather a plot device. It gets revealed later that the curse series of each hero weapon artificially and irreversably change someone's character once that particular emotion goes over a certain threshold. It's just that in the case of Naofumi this happened particulary early in the story. Though in his case it ironically helps him because his original self was rather naive. And Death March is pretty much what I described earlier. The protagonist doesn't really change as he already is pretty much "complete" or at least any changes are very subtle and veeery slow, but he has a mysterious background story he doesn't know about himself and the story slowly takes its time to hint at it here and there. But what else would you expect from a protagonist whose main goal is to "have a sight-seeing tour around his new world", who prioritizes finding new cooking ingredients over defeating the local monster outbreak? katsucats said: glassknuckles said: Nope. We watched the same one. It's just that plot points don't occur in isolation. He was beat up in that episode, but it's a cliche in anime that everyone gets strangely enamored with MC. MC has the power to "change people". Everyone comes to respect MC. But MC does not change. The core of his character does not realize his mistake. He swears that he'll get better as a reaction to the negative reaction of other characters, but it is not shown that he truly reflected and gets it. This is not just a Re:Zero thing. It is persistent across like 80% of all shounen. But it just happens to be particularly cringey in Re:Zero due to how far the apple is from the tree.wow, we must have watched a different show. It's exactly his white knighting and arrogance that is why nothing he does works. His white knighting for Emilia makes him a joke and gets him beat up. He gets killed constantly by making faulty assumptions about how others are going to react to him, and sometimes by just being unlucky. Maybe it's unrealistic that anyone would care about him, but on the whole he's hardly an invincible pillar of winning. You forgot the part where you explain how that makes Subaru into a "self-insert". Well you probably can't because it's a buzzword and doesn't have a clear definition... |
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Grey-Zone said: @Somali_Otaku None of that is a "promise to the reader". Yes they do have character development, but a series never "promises" something to the audience. I don't understand what that is about. You've seen Madoka right? Remember how early when the series first appeared most people thought it was going to be cutesy and chill, until they saw Urobuchi Gen's name and got curious? Or even if the series was recommended to you, did they do so in a way as to not convey the early plot twist? Do you think the twist was something done without the creators aware of the audience expectations? Do you think they didn't carefully craft cute character designs with rounder cuter shapes and a color pallete that is reminiscent of a picture book fairy tale as to contrast the perceieved expectations of a story about sweet girls to the cosmic horrors of the uncaring universe? The creators promised one thing through presentation, initial pacing and utilizing tropes found common in magical girl stories in anime. Then they betray your expectations with a twist that shifts the plot and your expectations in a considerably darker direction, compounded by the uneasy contrast of everything looking cute. The audio visual presentation, character design, opening scene, genre descriptor, staff list, basic premise and even the title itself is a promise from the creator to the audience. You are watching "this type" of series. Its a vague one but its there. Sometimes creators promise something fast paced and fun by showing how the series is fast paced and fun early on. Other times they carefully construct something in order to betray that promise so the contrast in initial presentation interests and engages the audience by having their expectations subverted. Why does Breaking Bad start out the series on a scene with a half naked man with a gun failing to commit suicide to the background of sirens? Because its their promise that the story is a tense crime drama featuring an atypical criminal. Why does Cowboy Bebop open on Spike chain smoking cigarettes in the rain before walking towards a hectic gunfight to the somber sound of a music box before the OP and in a very different filter from the rest of the series? Because its their promise to being a moody crime drama featuring the kind of cool protagonist who hides a machine gun in a boquet of roses like a heroic bloodshed movie protagonist. Why do many isekai series like to start the story in the real world? Because they want to establish character as early as possible to the audience. Their flaws, their desires, their general hangups preventing them from achieving said goal etc. Its a promise that in coming to a new world, those elements in the MC will change for the better or worse. If you can't recognize those elements, that's fine. But saying the creator has no perspective or awareness of their target audience's initial expectations when crafting their stories is ignorant. Of course they do, they want to hook as many people as possible as early on as possible! When a series betrays those initial promises with no real reason, it makes the series feel empty. When I watch isekai series feature an MC who's only defining attitude is that he's exceptionally normal get tossed into a new world my first thought is usually "why him?" If then they give seemingly normal person GTA cheat code tier powers, its usually a promise to the audience that what you are watching serves to be nothing more than wish fulfillment. Either the MC was single for no specific reason and then obtains a harem. He was weak for no specific reason but now he's stronger than everyone else. His outlook on life presented no issues so monumental that they needed to go to another world to solve them but they do anyway. All so the creators don't alienate or offend their audience who identifies with being normal. If an isekai series were to present a creepy psychopathic stalker envious of his crush's boyfriend's popularity and you were to pause right before he got transported into a new world, what would you expect to happen to the MC in the new world? If absolutely nothing were to happen to the MC, no interesting events were to be presented to him, and nothing changed about the MCs mentality don't you think you'd be a little dissapointed? If I were to boil down why most people shit on isekai, its that they recognize the promises in series offering nothing but good times for the normal MC who did nothing in the real world besides die in some cases to earn such a enviable situation and become annoyed by the clear cash grab intention of the creator as well as the redundancy of using isekai to do that. Because stories about wish fulfillment and escapism do exist, and there's nothing wrong with that. But when you use the isekai structure to do it, it comes off as (at least to me) the author blatantly stating how nice it would be if the real world dissapeared and was replaced with the new world thy imagined with no clear or threatening antagonist for 12-24 episodes. And thats enough to dissapoint some people who expected with how expensive and time consuming anime is to make, a story with a little more thought put into it. |
Somali_StrawhatSep 23, 2018 12:57 PM
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| The typical isekai: Guy is casually walking, then a girl out of nowhere bumps into him on a rush, they fall on the floor, his right hand is touching her boobs (depending on the case both hands are touching her boobs). The scene proceeds with both looking at each others eyes and they start to blush, the girl yells while at the same time she raises her right hand to perform a powerful slap on him (the camera angle moves on to the sky, the scene ends). Next scene she is still mad about the situation when clearly it's not the guy's fault. Anyways the anime continues with them slowly starting to like each other. The harem starts she gets jealous when another girl is talking to the guy so casually (she denies) The adventure continues with more unnecessary bullshit ecchi moments. Something cool happens. Everyone is happy. The anime ends. Next seasonal anime you will find another isekai anime with the same bullshit shoved into your face where characters look exactly the same from the past seasonal isekai. And that's why people hate isekai so much (only the typical ones though). |
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KreatorX said: I think this is a matter of standards. I even re-watched episode 18 to make sure of what you're talking about. The only reflection he makes in this episode was that he thinks he is pathetic for using his feelings as an excuse for his actions. He concludes with the exact same thing. He still wants to save Emilia. He still wants to be a white knight. The only difference is that he's willing to lean on Rem. And how convenient it is to have a girl be at your beck and call regardless of how you act. That a very good example of a self-insert.katsucats said: You have your reasons for disliking Subaru as a character which is understandable. But these two points are incorrect on all accounts. Which is why he said you watched a different show.Nope. We watched the same one. It's just that plot points don't occur in isolation. He was beat up in that episode, but it's a cliche in anime that everyone gets strangely enamored with MC. MC has the power to "change people". Everyone comes to respect MC. But MC does not change. The core of his character does not realize his mistake. He swears that he'll get better as a reaction to the negative reaction of other characters, but it is not shown that he truly reflected and gets it. This is not just a Re:Zero thing. It is persistent across like 80% of all shounen. But it just happens to be particularly cringey in Re:Zero due to how far the apple is from the tree. It is expected to dislike the character as he does indeed have that nice-guy-gets-pussy mentaliy from the beginning (which then the author proceeds to hammer down) . He is made aware of it in episode 13 but doesn't want to admit to it and therefore, becomes more vengeful to those around him. It's in episode 18 that he self-reflects on his actions and decides he needs to start a change. Which he even admits to again in the finale. Was this cringey? Yea it can appear to be so. This character development hardly even falls in shounen category. It's alright to hate a show like Re:Zero as I don't intend to change your opinion on that, but do that after fully seeing what the show offered. In episode 13, the only thing he realized was that things were not working out for him. This is a very shallow, reactive level of reflection. He realized things were not working out for him and he didn't want to admit it, perhaps. He did not realize why he is wrong, and didn't want to admit it. That would have to be a very liberal interpretation of the events. He would not have repeated his mistake so many times if it were so. From episode 19 onwards, he planned more deliberately -- perhaps the only difference. And by a series of plot points, he gets everyone to love him. His character remains absolutely the same. There is absolutely no inner reflection. There is absolutely no indication that he believed any differently than he did before, besides that things are conveniently working out for him now, or besides that he's willing to accept his "nakama's" help. That is almost entirely missing the point of his error from before. So yeah, I don't intend on changing your opinion either, but I insist that my points are correct on all accounts. In fact, I challenge you to point out one -- just one -- moment of reflection between episode 18 and just before the last scene where it actually showed psychological change, rather than just surface level event recognition (i.e. I did that before and it didn't work, so I'm going to "try" something different). It's like cheating in a test and getting caught, so you think, alright, I won't cheat anymore -- because you don't want to get caught, but not because you realized there was anything wrong. Huge difference. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| @Somali_Strawhat So with that "promise" you were just talking about early foreshadowing? Or more specifically about long-term Chekhov's Guns and Red Herrings? I was just confused by your choice of words, but now I understand what you mean. I want to remind you again, that most isekai were written under special circumstances, where instead of going through an editor, they went straight for the "survival of fittest" voter jungle of the Web Novel site "syousetsuka ni narou", which means that: 1. The isekai WN writers are probably amateurs and can make beginner's mistakes and might not adhere to conventional literary norms and techniques, sometimes leading to unexpected positive results with the audience (i.e. typical trial and error), which would never be possible if it went directly to the editor instead. The writers follow the responses in their comments sections instead. In some cases feedback from laymen ends up being better than feedback from experts, escpacially since experts can sometimes be inflexible in regards to what they learnt and persist on that even if a "new undiscovered approach" would be better for the story. 2. The isekai WN writers, before they get an LN adaptation, can try very unconventional stuff and are not under editor's pressure, unlike normal LN writers, who due to fears of getting axed would opt to choose "safe" methods and would not dare take risks that might possibly cause more readers to leave then to attract new ones, i.e. isekai WN authors are more likely to take intentional risks and are more bold in that regard. Considering the above points, even after going through the polishing of being turned into LNs, I don't think you can expect the isekai authors' original intent to be based on conventional literary methods and norms. This obviously doesn't make them bad, just more unconventional and informal. Of course the LNs often add the conventional stuff on TOP of the already complete product as a form of polishing, but keep in mind that the story might have originally existed without them. Sorry about going all meta on this, but I think it's a massive influence on these works so it should be taken into consideration. EpicShonenGuy said: The typical isekai: Guy is casually walking, then a girl out of nowhere bumps into him on a rush, they fall on the floor, his right hand is touching her boobs (depending on the case both hands are touching her boobs). The scene proceeds with both looking at each others eyes and they start to blush, the girl yells while at the same time she raises her right hand to perform a powerful slap on him (the camera angle moves on to the sky, the scene ends). Next scene she is still mad about the situation when clearly it's not the guy's fault. Anyways the anime continues with them slowly starting to like each other. The harem starts she gets jealous when another girl is talking to the guy so casually (she denies) The adventure continues with more unnecessary bullshit ecchi moments. Something cool happens. Everyone is happy. The anime ends. Next seasonal anime you will find another isekai anime with the same bullshit shoved into your face where characters look exactly the same from the past seasonal isekai. And that's why people hate isekai so much (only the typical ones though). As I have said in the OP, WHERE ARE "ALL THESE SERIES" you people keep bringing up? They don't exist. I can list all the isekai I know about which have the elements you described: - Zero no Tsukaima - Dog Days - Smartphone That's all. And out of the above the only one which appeard within the last 5 years was Smartphone. I don't know any other isekai which has these horrible cancer elements you describe. Hyakuren something something Valkyria has it's own big problems but other than some of the ecchi harem moments, it doesn't fit most of your description and the protagonist actually chooses his girl in the very beginning and resolutely rejects any advances. I didn't watch Grimmgar, but I don't think such scenes exist there... Death March has a "smooth criminal" protagonist who manages to quell any jealousy moments before they truly break out. He is also not interested in any of the girls from the beginning (they are too young) and is not subject to any unresonable violence or blame, due to in-universe reasons and his personality. On top of that the protagonist was an adult in his previous life (his body became young again in the new world) and goes to brothels, so he isn't a virgin. I didn't watch Re:Zero so I don't know about that. Overlord... the protagonist is a supreme undead Overlord ("Overlord" literally being the name of his race) with a skeleton-like body who is revered to the point where everyone around him, including the girls, blames themselves for even the protagonist's own mistakes. All "ecchi" moments involving the protagonist in all 3 seasons combined can be counted on one hand. Next? Isekai Maou has a protagonist with a communication disorder, one of the extremely rare cases where the protagonist has a reasonable in-universe explanation for being flustered about girls and any calm basic actions being a complete facade, something properly explained from the very beginning. The girls also do NOT unreasonably attack or blame the protagonist in ecchi situations. Konosuba is a parody and the protagonist is genre savyy to the point where he actually points out cancerous cliché and tropes you mentioned and explains that he will not let such things fly. So let me ask you again: Where are "all the isekai" with the elements you mentioned? Because I can't see them, other than the 3 (only 1 being recent) that I listed above. I am waiting. Maybe you can finally enlighten me, because anyone else became silent after I asked them... @katsucats I didn't watch Re:Zero, but your description still doesn't make me think of "self-insert", but rather about either an asshole character who is around easy girls or about bad writing. To come to the conclusion that it's "self-insert" sounds more like pseudo arm-chair psycho-ananalysis of the author's intention with no basis. I mean isn't "self-insert" essentially at worst a "failed attempt at writing a relatable character" or simply "a badly written main character who the author intended to be relatable"? |
Grey-ZoneSep 23, 2018 3:10 PM
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Grey-Zone said: @Somali_Strawhat So with that "promise" you were just talking about early foreshadowing? Or more specifically about long-term Chekhov's Guns and Red Herrings? I was just confused by your choice of words, but now I understand what you mean. I want to remind you again, that most isekai were written under special circumstances, where instead of going through an editor, they went straight for the "survival of fittest" voter jungle of the Web Novel site "syousetsuka ni narou", which means that: 1. The isekai WN writers are probably amateurs and can make beginner's mistakes and might not adhere to conventional literary norms and techniques, sometimes leading to unexpected positive results with the audience (i.e. typical trial and error), which would never be possible if it went directly to the editor instead. The writers follow the responses in their comments sections instead. In some cases feedback from laymen ends up being better than feedback from experts, escpacially since experts can sometimes be inflexible in regards to what they learnt and persist on that even if a "new undiscovered approach" would be better for the story. 2. The isekai WN writers, before they get an LN adaptation, can try very unconventional stuff and are not under editor's pressure, unlike normal LN writers, who due to fears of getting axed would opt to choose "safe" methods and would not dare take risks that might possibly cause more readers to leave then to attract new ones, i.e. isekai WN authors are more likely to take intentional risks and are more bold in that regard. Considering the above points, even after going through the polishing of being turned into LNs, I don't think you can expect the isekai authors' original intent to be based on conventional literary methods and norms. This obviously doesn't make them bad, just more unconventional and informal. Of course the LNs often add the conventional stuff on TOP of the already complete product as a form of polishing, but keep in mind that the story might have originally existed without them. Sorry about going all meta on this, but I think it's a massive influence on these works so it should be taken into consideration. EpicShonenGuy said: The typical isekai: Guy is casually walking, then a girl out of nowhere bumps into him on a rush, they fall on the floor, his right hand is touching her boobs (depending on the case both hands are touching her boobs). The scene proceeds with both looking at each others eyes and they start to blush, the girl yells while at the same time she raises her right hand to perform a powerful slap on him (the camera angle moves on to the sky, the scene ends). Next scene she is still mad about the situation when clearly it's not the guy's fault. Anyways the anime continues with them slowly starting to like each other. The harem starts she gets jealous when another girl is talking to the guy so casually (she denies) The adventure continues with more unnecessary bullshit ecchi moments. Something cool happens. Everyone is happy. The anime ends. Next seasonal anime you will find another isekai anime with the same bullshit shoved into your face where characters look exactly the same from the past seasonal isekai. And that's why people hate isekai so much (only the typical ones though). As I have said in the OP, WHERE ARE "ALL THESE SERIES" you people keep bringing up? They don't exist. I can list all the isekai I know about which have the elements you described: - Zero no Tsukaima - Dog Days - Smartphone That's all. And out of the above the only one which appeard within the last 5 years was Smartphone. I don't know any other isekai which has these horrible cancer elements you describe. Hyakuren something something Valkyria has it's own big problems but other than some of the ecchi harem moments, it doesn't fit most of your description and the protagonist actually chooses his girl in the very beginning and resolutely rejects any advances. I didn't watch Grimmgar, but I don't think such scenes exist there... Death March has a "smooth criminal" protagonist who manages to quell any jealousy moments before they truly break out. He is also not interested in any of the girls from the beginning (they are too young) and is not subject to any unresonable violence or blame, due to in-universe reasons and his personality. On top of that the protagonist was an adult in his previous life (his body became young again in the new world) and goes to brothels, so he isn't a virgin. I didn't watch Re:Zero so I don't know about that. Overlord... the protagonist is a supreme undead Overlord ("Overlord" literally being the name of his race) with a skeleton-like body who is revered to the point where everyone around him, including the girls, blames themselves for even the protagonist's own mistakes. All "ecchi" moments involving the protagonist in all 3 seasons combined can be counted on one hand. Next? Isekai Maou has a protagonist with a communication disorder, one of the extremely rare cases where the protagonist has a reasonable in-universe explanation for being flustered about girls and any calm basic actions being a complete facade, something properly explained from the very beginning. The girls also do NOT unreasonably attack or blame the protagonist in ecchi situations. Konosuba is a parody and the protagonist is genre savyy to the point where he actually points out cancerous cliché and tropes you mentioned and explains that he will not let such things fly. So let me ask you again: Where are "all the isekai" with the elements you mentioned? Because I can't see them, other than the 3 (only 1 being recent) that I listed above. I am waiting. Maybe you can finally enlighten me, because anyone else became silent after I asked them... @katsucats I didn't watch Re:Zero, but your description still doesn't make me think of "self-insert", but rather about either an asshole character who is around easy girls or about bad writing. To come to the conclusion that it's "self-insert" sounds more like pseudo arm-chair psycho-ananalysis of the author's intention with no basis. I mean isn't "self-insert" essentially at worst a "failed attempt at writing a relatable character" or simply "a badly written main character who the author intended to be relatable"? That's why i only said the typical ones Overlord an the others you mentioned don't fall on the typical ones and to be honest i could name a few that does that but i had to go on my list to find since i can't remember the title, they usually have long titles. |
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Grey-Zone said: The broadest description of self-insert is a character designed to emulate the audience, usually so the audience could imagine himself or herself as a participant of the show. In order to facilitate this, most self-inserts are as generic as possible, lack personality, don't say a lot, etc., so that the audience can fill in the blanks. Picture the typical JRPG, where the MC that you name never really says anything, even when other people are talking to him. This is why most harem MCs are as average as possible.@katsucats I didn't watch Re:Zero, but your description still doesn't make me think of "self-insert", but rather about either an asshole character who is around easy girls or about bad writing. To come to the conclusion that it's "self-insert" sounds more like pseudo arm-chair psycho-ananalysis of the author's intention with no basis. I mean isn't "self-insert" essentially at worst a "failed attempt at writing a relatable character" or simply "a badly written main character who the author intended to be relatable"? I would suggest that self-inserts don't have to be as average as possible, as long as the intended audience gets the sense that they can participate in the show. In Re:Zero, the MC is literally the cringiest version of the generic manipulative nice-guy stereotype. That in itself is fine, but key characters are in love with him. It's almost like the generic manipulative nice-guy's wet dream. I consider that to be self-insert. Yes, it could be fueled by bad writing or the author's unrealistic world view. No, I can't read the author's mind. But it fits the profile. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| I don't hate isekai provided it has a good story and decent characters which pretty much eliminates 2/3 of what's out there. |
| Life Is Short But Intense. |
katsucats said: Grey-Zone said: The broadest description of self-insert is a character designed to emulate the audience, usually so the audience could imagine himself or herself as a participant of the show. In order to facilitate this, most self-inserts are as generic as possible, lack personality, don't say a lot, etc., so that the audience can fill in the blanks. Picture the typical JRPG, where the MC that you name never really says anything, even when other people are talking to him. This is why most harem MCs are as average as possible.@katsucats I didn't watch Re:Zero, but your description still doesn't make me think of "self-insert", but rather about either an asshole character who is around easy girls or about bad writing. To come to the conclusion that it's "self-insert" sounds more like pseudo arm-chair psycho-ananalysis of the author's intention with no basis. I mean isn't "self-insert" essentially at worst a "failed attempt at writing a relatable character" or simply "a badly written main character who the author intended to be relatable"? I would suggest that self-inserts don't have to be as average as possible, as long as the intended audience gets the sense that they can participate in the show. In Re:Zero, the MC is literally the cringiest version of the generic manipulative nice-guy stereotype. That in itself is fine, but key characters are in love with him. It's almost like the generic manipulative nice-guy's wet dream. I consider that to be self-insert. Yes, it could be fueled by bad writing or the author's unrealistic world view. No, I can't read the author's mind. But it fits the profile. You are making my point. It's the silent protagonist that is "self-insert". The moment the protagonist says something other than the absolutely most basic thing, such an "immersion" is immdietly broken. The "fits the profile" part is really rude towards the author because out of all the available explanations for the writing you choose the one that puts them into the worst possible light. Again, I haven't seen Re:Zero, but the fact that the protagonist makes such big fat decision of who he "picks" as a love interest (as if I could possibly avoid the "I love Emilia"-meme) is more than enough proof that the protagonist isn't a self-insert. It would be different if it was a dating sim with multiple routes or even a story driven VN with multiple routes like Fate/stay night would qualify to some extent, but if the love interest is choosen for the reader, then trying to force the explanation of "self-insert" seems very odd and, again, is very rude toward the author. |
Grey-ZoneSep 24, 2018 2:51 AM
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samskeyti said: but what if you die in canada instead?if you die in the game you die in real life! |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I dislike the ones where a shutin otaku dies to be transfered into another game like world with some cheat abilities that make them OP in that world. |
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| Overused concept with almost always bad execution with the MC being a self-insert NEET otaku with no personality, no skills, no anything that just happens to be OP and do everything perfectly. |
| I didn't used to hate isekai, but then I got into reading light novels (both translated and jp). After that I've seen so many iterations of the setting I want to bury it forever. I seriously had this conversation with a friend: Me: Oh, this one is a shoujo reincarnation-as-villain medieval isekai yandere reverse-harem. Friend: Which one of them? Me: I find it sad that's an actual genre now. Once you bury into the achieves of Shousetsuka ni Narou, you too wish you could wipe the entire genre from existence. |
NthDegree said: I didn't used to hate isekai, but then I got into reading light novels (both translated and jp). After that I've seen so many iterations of the setting I want to bury it forever. I seriously had this conversation with a friend: Me: Oh, this one is a shoujo reincarnation-as-villain medieval isekai yandere reverse-harem. Friend: Which one of them? Me: I find it sad that's an actual genre now. Once you bury into the achieves of Shousetsuka ni Narou, you too wish you could wipe the entire genre from existence. Actually, if you remove the "yandere" part, then it can be quite an interesting read, for example "Common sense of the duke's daughter" or "I reincarnated as a Villainess, but why did it turn out this way?!" These two are more about territory building, and while both are able to keep the shoujo-ness in check, the former is fairly light-hearted, with the protagonist, as the "acting fief lord", trying to bring her modern business and economics knowledge as a working adult into her fief, while the latter has a rather "edgy" (and dense) protagonist, who, after reincarnating, starts out by poisoning her own family to death, while still being an infant, in the first chapter because they are complete tyrants toward their own fief and she sees no future for them. After her family dies, she's the only survivor of her family's (main) line and gets raised by a different, more good-hearted noble. I recommend those two. And also another one called "Kenkyo Kenjitsu" which is more slice-of-life stuff in a alternate-reality modern world and a school setting, but it's great. Escpacially the (unfortunately few) moments where the protagonist goes into her true "villainess mode". There are some other good ones, but I actually enjoy many of villainess girl reincarnation stories. Not too big of a fan of the pure comedy ones, like "Bakarina", but that's just my personal preference. I have, however, zero interest in the yandere ones. |
Grey-ZoneSep 24, 2018 9:57 AM
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| @Grey-Zone ...I've read all of the ones you recommended already... :'D Not to say they aren't good, but the genre is waaaaay overdone. |
Yea, that's why I frankly prefer to use these as the measurement standard for the genre and feel the frustration of either not being able to find similary good ones or the potentially good ones not being TLed (and heck no, I am not going to fry my brain with MTLs). All the Web Novels I cannot read... It would be easier if I could read Japanese or one of the other Asian languages where TLs are more developed than in English, like Chinese and (I think?) Indonesian. But too bad, I live in Europe. Damn, why do the Chinese Xianxia "you are COURTING DEATH!^9999" CH-EN translations get 3-times-a-day releases, but JP-EN translations are like 1-2 chapters weekly ;( |
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Grey-Zone said: Yea, that's why I frankly prefer to use these as the measurement standard for the genre and feel the frustration of either not being able to find similary good ones or the potentially good ones not being TLed (and heck no, I am not going to fry my brain with MTLs). All the Web Novels I cannot read... It would be easier if I could read Japanese or one of the other Asian languages where TLs are more developed than in English, like Chinese and (I think?) Indonesian. But too bad, I live in Europe. Damn, why do the Chinese Xianxia "you are COURTING DEATH!^9999" CH-EN translations get 3-times-a-day releases, but JP-EN translations are like 1-2 chapters weekly ;( It's probably because there are more people who understand Chinese than Japanese lol. I do have to admit that I have pondered the same thing while reading Quanzhi Gaoshou that gets a new chapter TL'd every single day... I'm still much slower at reading in jp than en... |
| Added spoilers for a rather pitiful attempt at brevity and viewing pleasure :P Now, the following goes a little off-topic and this isn't any form of justification for the characterization but I could go on a limb and state : that is how the 'powers' work. They involve a tiny bit of symbolism. This is speculation from my side based on whatever I have pieced together from the show. And I apologize beforehand if this wastes your time or if it's actually untrue. My gripe is with the fact of comparing whatever the show offered with silly run-of-the-mill shounen. So yeah, I don't intend on changing your opinion either, but I insist that my points are correct on all accounts. In fact, I challenge you to point out one -- just one -- moment of reflection between episode 18 and just before the last scene where it actually showed psychological change, rather than just surface level event recognition (i.e. I did that before and it didn't work, so I'm going to "try" something different). It's like cheating in a test and getting caught, so you think, alright, I won't cheat anymore -- because you don't want to get caught, but not because you realized there was anything wrong. Huge difference. His moment of reflection also includes that I appreciate the harmless civil discourse nonetheless, it's a rarity on MAL. |
KreatorXSep 24, 2018 4:03 PM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
Grey-Zone said: A bit background knowledge for thos who don't know: Most of the isekai adaptated into anime originate from Web Novels which were hosted on a free japanese Web Novel site called "Syosetsuka ni Narou" there was a huge isekai boom there around 2010-2014 and there were also a lot of trash isekai, but among all the isekai posted there by amateur writers, the best of them were picked out and transformed into Light Novels after an editing process, which eliminated most of the trash writing by the amateurs, then the best among them received manga adaptations and later the successful ones among LNs and manga sales got their anime adaptations. In other words most of the isekai are already and "improved versions" of the original Web Novels and the truly bad ones never even got a chance at becoming anime. Unfortunately it seems some bad apples among isekai like Smartphone somehow survived that whole process and got its anime... The real question is why the Best Isekai's Mushoku Tensei never got an adaptation, that's the point, OP. |
Detective1412 said: Grey-Zone said: A bit background knowledge for thos who don't know: Most of the isekai adaptated into anime originate from Web Novels which were hosted on a free japanese Web Novel site called "Syosetsuka ni Narou" there was a huge isekai boom there around 2010-2014 and there were also a lot of trash isekai, but among all the isekai posted there by amateur writers, the best of them were picked out and transformed into Light Novels after an editing process, which eliminated most of the trash writing by the amateurs, then the best among them received manga adaptations and later the successful ones among LNs and manga sales got their anime adaptations. In other words most of the isekai are already and "improved versions" of the original Web Novels and the truly bad ones never even got a chance at becoming anime. Unfortunately it seems some bad apples among isekai like Smartphone somehow survived that whole process and got its anime... The real question is why the Best Isekai's Mushoku Tensei never got an adaptation, that's the point, OP. Personally, I don't think it would do well as an adaptation. It would be escpacially terrible if it only got 1 cour. With 2 cours it might be somewhat decent, but the problem with this series would be that no matter where it stopped it would seem awkward or rushed. |
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Grey-Zone said: Detective1412 said: The real question is why the Best Isekai's Mushoku Tensei never got an adaptation, that's the point, OP. Personally, I don't think it would do well as an adaptation. It would be escpacially terrible if it only got 1 cour. With 2 cours it might be somewhat decent, but the problem with this series would be that no matter where it stopped it would seem awkward or rushed. Ah yeah that's the problem. (Hope) if it's popular as SAO, it will got 4 cour adaptation. The problem is on the sales of the LN, it's not popular enough, why... |
Detective1412 said: Grey-Zone said: Personally, I don't think it would do well as an adaptation. It would be escpacially terrible if it only got 1 cour. With 2 cours it might be somewhat decent, but the problem with this series would be that no matter where it stopped it would seem awkward or rushed. Ah yeah that's the problem. (Hope) if it's popular as SAO, it will got 4 cour adaptation. The problem is on the sales of the LN, it's not popular enough, why... My guess is that it's more popular in the West, being one of the first isekai WNs that got completely translated, than in Japan where it was just one among many and probably overshadowed by Shield Hero and those that came after. Also I imagine the ending might have not been very well received. It was a bit sudden after all and all the hype built up with the alternate self from the future with gravity magic went poof due to a sudden timeskip to... well, the ending. I was so disappointed when it just ended like that, though I understand that there wasn't much left to write, it still came out of nowhere and felt rather disappointing. It doesn't help that I started reading Coiling Dragon and other Chinese immortal cultivation novels right afterwards. |
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Mcoach said: Grey-Zone said: (Please note that I intentionally don't mention SAO, because that's the Death Game VRMMORPG subgenre and not the isekai subgenre) What the hell is Death Game VRMMORPG? It's a sub-genre that was fairly popular among Web Novels before they were completely pushed aside by the isekai trend. The Death Game VRMMORPG trend died before LN publishers started to turn Web Novels into official Light Novels, that's why that sub-genre pretty much never got much traction, which is why SAO is pretty much one of the only ones of this genre. But this sub-genre it did indeed exist, at least as Web Novels. In case you read the WN/LN/manga called "New Gate" then it's very easy to understand. In this story the protagonist and others were trapped in a Death Game VRMMORPG, just like the first Arc in SAO, but after he finally cleared the final boss, people became able to log out again - aside from the protagonist, who ACTUALLY was isekai'd into a real-world representation of the game world afterwards. In other words he goes from a Death Game VRMMORPG to an actual isekai - this is the prologue of the story. Based on this story I always make the distinction between the two sub-genres and no matter how many times people claim that SAO is an isekai - it just isn't. |
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Mcoach said: Grey-Zone said: It's a sub-genre that was fairly popular among Web Novels before they were completely pushed aside by the isekai trend. The Death Game VRMMORPG trend died before LN publishers started to turn Web Novels into official Light Novels, that's why that sub-genre pretty much never got much traction, which is why SAO is pretty much one of the only ones of this genre. But this sub-genre it did indeed exist, at least as Web Novels. In case you read the WN/LN/manga called "New Gate" then it's very easy to understand. In this story the protagonist and others were trapped in a Death Game VRMMORPG, just like the first Arc in SAO, but after he finally cleared the final boss, people became able to log out again - aside from the protagonist, who ACTUALLY was isekai'd into a real-world representation of the game world afterwards. In other words he goes from a Death Game VRMMORPG to an actual isekai - this is the prologue of the story. Based on this story I always make the distinction between the two sub-genres and no matter how many times people claim that SAO is an isekai - it just isn't. Oh I see, thanks. Sorry for being rude, I guess. :) No offense taken. Strictly speaking it's so non-existent in anime other than SAO, that I understand why people might not know about it. Even among the novel reader community the Japanese VRMMO RPG concept novels mostly gets ignored in favor of isekai or Korean/Chinese VR Novels by the translators. And the combo of VR + Death Game even more so. Does that mean fantasy is generic for having elves and dwarfes or sci-fi is generic for having space-ships? Doesn't make much sense to isolate just isekai for that, IMO. |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: jesus christ I laughed so hard oh my godsamskeyti said: but what if you die in canada instead?if you die in the game you die in real life! |
| probably people hate it because there is too much of it |
| Because most isekai, instead of trying to make the inherent premise of the genre or setting more interesting, just go for gimmicks. A generic MMORPG fantasy world is just that, regardless of whether the protag has resurrected as a high level warrior or a ladies' toilet bowl. |
| I can't hate things that I haven't been exposed to, nor can I hate a thing if I can't pronounce it's name. My ignorance is bliss. |
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| Despite this being a year old thread, I think it's because it's just too popular |
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| I feel like it's cause It's generic and a lot of times not well written. I don't dislike the genre at all, but I can see why isekai has a lot haters. |
| Isekai is like fanfiction. It takes no skill to make it therefore there is lots of it. Its not like isekai is bad . It's just that the good ones are harder to find because there is a lot of bad ones surrounding them. Just like there is good fanfiction. Good luck finding it thou |
| "Because they don't get it." Try give a person who doesn't have any experience with technologies a laptop. He'd probably be clueless unless he gets taught and he understands. Isekai is "a new thing" for this anime generation. People like I enjoy isekai but some people just doesn't get it and that's just how it is and it has always been. Just like how humans are evolving, anime is too and there will certainly be hate and despise. We are leaving some people behind but eventually we will also be the people who will be left behind. - Evolution |
| Isekai done well can be very good. But the most common reason are asspulls and pacing. |
| All weebs creatures of the galaxy, hear this message. Those of you who listen will not be struck by western animation. You will no longer know hunger, nor pain. Your Anime have come to lead you now. Our strength shall serve as a luminous sun toward which all intelligence may blossom. And the impervious shelter beneath which you will prosper. However, for those who refuse our offer and cling to their western animation ways… For you, there will be great wrath. |
| Isekai generally don't appeal to me as the main character is usually the focus with the world building seeming incidental. From what I've seen a lot of them also have annoying big breasted female sidekicks that put me off them too. |
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| Repetitive formula , Tolkien fantasy + harem + maou + potato kirito-ish MC |
| Хайде, хайде, хайде, това е първата зона, брато, първа зона, първа зона, добре, добре, добре, това става тук горе, отива тук горе, само спокойно, само спокойно... Ха, отдясно е, навсякъде отдясно отдясно къде е дясното ти о да добре добре добре тихо мълчаливо не успях да се съсредоточа върху това ЕХ ТЪПАК КОГАТО СИ БАВНО БАВНО ... ой е путката на моето момиче прасе куче, аз Чувствам се добре, о, мамо, *шамар*, какво е това госпожице татко- |
| Because of the copy and paste protagonists. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| Why did you guys necro that thread... Also most peoples who hate isekai are hating it simply because they like bandwagoning. Some random popular youtuber makes an uninformed video about isekai (or about something else), his/her fanbase believes it and follows the words as if it was some divine revelation, they spread the words which influence even more peoples which in turns influence peoples and so on. By now, there's barely anyone "hating isekai" who could endure a real discussion about their 'dislike" for it with anyone that know his subject. Because they didn't build their opinion by themselves so they can't argue back, despite what they're persuading themselves. |
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| When it are big isekai titles, like Re:zero, Konosuba etc. I will genuinely like it and watch it, but I won't watch every single isekai that come out every season because most of them are just power fantasy harem trash. If they can prove to be good or bring an interesting twist to the idea, I will watch it. I don't particually dislike isekai, but I will eyeroll to all those who pretend to be interesting because '' THis oNE HAs a SMARtphone '' |
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