Grey-Zone said: Found this list of 64. Before SAO in 2012 (according to this, in anime not manga) there were 32 Isekai since 1984, since 2012 there has been 32 more. This includes movies and OVAs.xchyssa said: Overused/repetitive tropes and cliches. I do hope japan would do a move on isekai. They are getting carried away with this market trend. Meanwhile I still wait for someone to give me list of that "endless amount" of copy&paste isekai that's greater than the list of 3 I listed above... |
 I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| A bit background knowledge for thos who don't know: Most of the isekai adaptated into anime originate from Web Novels which were hosted on a free japanese Web Novel site called "Syosetsuka ni Narou" there was a huge isekai boom there around 2010-2014 and there were also a lot of trash isekai, but among all the isekai posted there by amateur writers, the best of them were picked out and transformed into Light Novels after an editing process, which eliminated most of the trash writing by the amateurs, then the best among them received manga adaptations and later the successful ones among LNs and manga sales got their anime adaptations. In other words most of the isekai are already and "improved versions" of the original Web Novels and the truly bad ones never even got a chance at becoming anime. Unfortunately it seems some bad apples among isekai like Smartphone somehow survived that whole process and got its anime... |
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They have different quirks, rules, and mechanics so they end up having vastly different execution of plot. they are mostly and usually really similar you can cast spells, you have to know the combat, the universe has diferent patterns each time but it always has similarities, for the isekaigame genre is usually something like, " oh this thing here is the same but this one is really diferent ohh.. " for example. There are different quirks but it usually comes back to the same execution. Same as above. Different execution. With Log Horizon in particular building a very detailed and evolving world where the author constantly expands on the many things he established by asking himself what are the many implications of the game rules becoming reality. Building the world from implications of the very first things established, worldbuilding ala George R.R. Martin's Westeros & Essos, one of the most lauded works of 21st century Western Fantasy literature. Gardener type writing. I completely agree that the execution is the point here, but the pattern that you need to have the world building because of the mc's introduction into the new world, is the same. the engine that makes the story flow is the same. Every anime ever. not necessarily, there are a lot of animes where the mc already knows most of the characters that are going to interact, but it will be presented to the audience later. Different executions and ideas. once again, the same pattern to make the story flow, also there are some similar ideas and executions sometimes like, the mc arguing if he's capable of killing or not, if he should return or not, there are different executions but a lot of patterns are the same. Every anime ever. this is every ecchi anime ever you mean, I don't think there is any particular reason for the need that the cast should be at least 65% female in a medieval isekai setting, but it always does everytime. What fucking anime are you watching where there isn't a good amount of attractive women? there may be some, but usually the main cast is attractive yes, but I do agree that this point is one flaw, I just don't understand why does it need to have a good amount of attractive girls in a medieval isekai setting. the amout of effort that took to edit .. omg.. |
| Maybe because human beings are wired to be curious and seeing the same thing get repeated over and over again, without much variety (you can call it flavour) at some point gets on people's nerves? People want to be surprised and challenged, even if they accept the same thing a number of times because humans also like familiarity. But at some point they have a limit and want something different. The general audience gets bored and annoyed and only the hardcore light novel isekai adaptation fans stick around and ask the same question you asked. And the same vicious cycle starts again. Rinse and repeat. |
-Hotaru_Sep 20, 2018 7:02 AM
Grey-Zone said: But that's the thing - there aren't THAT many of them out. I think the total amount of isekai anime in existence are only about 15-20 at maximum even if you include the 10+ year old series. Maybe up to 30 if you count those where the line is blurry about whether the "other world" is a physical or virtual world, like Digimon, Monster Rancher and Ixion Saga (speaking of which I have to finally find time to finish Ixion Saga some time). In other words, there are still more of the unique isekai than the copy&paste isekai. People think of imaginary isekai series that don't exist... We have more than 100 titles in here: https://anilist.co/search/anime?includedTags=Isekai |
blumenbalt said: I just can't deny the fact that the genre is overused and cliche at this point I can. And I'm going to. Because this has always been a crock of shit and rooted in some incredibly, incredibly basic derivatives that can be applied to pretty much any setting if we so please. "Oh look, it's a videogame isekai with an OP protagonist and a lot of girls." "Oh look, it's a dystopian sci-fi featuring a shitty looking megacity that pretty much everybody is miserable in." "Oh look, it's a fantasy setting with elves, dwarves, humans and orcs and the orcs want to fight everybody and the elves and dwarves hate each other for some reason." "Oh look, it's an anime directed by Imaishi where they go to space in the end for some fucking reason and everybody is incredibly loud and there's a lot of yelling and bravado with just enough thematic references to hint at being deeper without actually fleshing them out or delving into them meaningfully." Just like with magic schools and such. A lot of the criticisms of being derivative don't actually take the show itself into account and usually focus primarily on "what" it's doing - merely being an isekai - and now how it fucking does it or what approaches and priorities it has that distinguishes it. Even fucking Isekai Smartphone had elements to it that are basically the equivalent of a unicorn sighting the way it wrapped up its romantic subplots primarily, and even compared to another lighthearted and relatively relaxed isekai like Death March, the sequences of events are generally more focused on the questing and adventuring they're doing and just usually portrays them as having a good time with it somehow, as opposed to Death March which almost always used the narrative and adventures as a backdrop for character interactions between the cast. It's why the devoted just as much time, if not moreso, to the character just doing basic, slice of life shit like going shopping or having lunch or whatever than just stabby-stabby pokey-pokey. And in terms of approach, those two shows actually are comparable on their most base level with their generally "relaxed, good-time" nature as opposed to something like fucking Overlord or Log Horizon which both emphasize things like worldbuilding and the politics developing in their settings between different groups to huge degrees to the point where that's the primary driving force, and even then those two approach these priorities pretty divergent from one another in each other, much more than Death March or Smartphone imo. So yeah. No, this whole concept is fucking stupid and I'm exhausted with it actually been accepted and treated as much more meaningful than what it really is - and what it so often amounts to is nothing more than the trite, surface-level takes that basically reiterate the fucking setting in a completely negligent way and then lambasting it for as much. It very much is a targeted entity, and that would be fine with me if it wasn't accepted as something thoughtful and a meaningful statement whenever it's just a bunch of superficial and haphazardly applied ascriptions. It's just the same shit that it was with magic schools last year. Everything is always overrunning the medium, and we personally are all some part of some horribly neglected audience. It's how it always seems with everybody, and we just look for something to latch onto and bitch about existing. There's always too much of (x) thing I don't like and never enough of (x) thing that I do like. Given how prevalent that is applied by fans in a variety of different ways - I'm going to wrap a rope around my neck the next time I see another ecchifag complain about fujobait stuff being prominent or the next time I see a fujo do the exact same thing in the opposite direction in spite of how these two lanes of entertainment can often run kinda fucking parrallel to one another - I'm very much convinced that it's just people scapegoating some kind of hidden frustration that their own preferences aren't prominent enough for their likes. |
ManabanSep 20, 2018 10:46 AM
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Lisbon said: blumenbalt said: I just can't deny the fact that the genre is overused and cliche at this point I can. And I'm going to. Idk if my english is really bad or something, but Didn't I agree with you? I mean, I love the genre, but I can't say is not cliche, I can't deny this fact, is obvious that is is. |
Lunilah said: Grey-Zone said: Found this list of 64. Before SAO in 2012 (according to this, in anime not manga) there were 32 Isekai since 1984, since 2012 there has been 32 more. This includes movies and OVAs.Meanwhile I still wait for someone to give me list of that "endless amount" of copy&paste isekai that's greater than the list of 3 I listed above... It also includes Chinese stuff and sequels, which inflate the number quite a bit. If you ignore those, from 2006 up until today there are only about 20 isekai shows. |
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| the same reason why every magic highschool battle anime was bad till proven otherwise - they are everywhere. Its the same over and over again. And there is no plot, so they fill that gap with ecchi and harem. Also its better to be sceptical and get positively surprised than the other way around |
| "This emotion is mine alone. It is for Madoka alone." - Homura or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. |
mhkr said: Grey-Zone said: But that's the thing - there aren't THAT many of them out. I think the total amount of isekai anime in existence are only about 15-20 at maximum even if you include the 10+ year old series. Maybe up to 30 if you count those where the line is blurry about whether the "other world" is a physical or virtual world, like Digimon, Monster Rancher and Ixion Saga (speaking of which I have to finally find time to finish Ixion Saga some time). In other words, there are still more of the unique isekai than the copy&paste isekai. People think of imaginary isekai series that don't exist... We have more than 100 titles in here: https://anilist.co/search/anime?includedTags=Isekai That list includes sequels, specials, OVAs, shorts, reverse-isekai (e.g. Part-timer demon king is included in the list), and even... Hunter X Hunter? Why is that considered isekai? Anyway, the number is completely wrong. |
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Grey-Zone said: Sequels don't negate anything. Since SAO there has been on average 1 Isekai a season.Lunilah said: Found this list of 64. Before SAO in 2012 (according to this, in anime not manga) there were 32 Isekai since 1984, since 2012 there has been 32 more. This includes movies and OVAs. It also includes Chinese stuff and sequels, which inflate the number quite a bit. If you ignore those, from 2006 up until today there are only about 20 isekai shows. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Lunilah said: Grey-Zone said: Found this list of 64. Before SAO in 2012 (according to this, in anime not manga) there were 32 Isekai since 1984, since 2012 there has been 32 more. This includes movies and OVAs.Meanwhile I still wait for someone to give me list of that "endless amount" of copy&paste isekai that's greater than the list of 3 I listed above... Ah, cool, 64 total being propped up, with 32 more since 2012. I'm going to take these numbers and apply math to them. Let's take that number of 32, the post-boom, and compare with the amount of anime released per year to get an idea of how much it exists within this space and capacity. Going by anime pages released by year with wikipedia pages (which is generous to the stance it's over-saturating and very prominent, since this neglects to include anime that didn't even get wikipedia pages in English) from 2012 - the ones announced for here we go:  32 out of 1192 releases. And if we substract the 37 announced for 2019, then it's 32 out of 1155. If we go with the first value that includes releases slated for 2019 and use 32 as the base number, then the amount of isekai relative to anime as a whole is 2.68%. If we go with the second, it's 2.77%. There are people crying over-saturation and basically seeing 2% or 3% of the entire fucking market since 2012 as an endless number. I'm sorry, but I'm not taking that seriously anytime soon >_> blumenbalt said: Idk if my english is really bad or something, but Didn't I agree with you? I mean, I love the genre, but I can't say is not cliche, I can't deny this fact, is obvious that is is. I have made nothing except the argument against these types of series being incredibly derivative throughout this thread. I don't think we're agreeing at all based on what I'm reading from you. Do people stop to think what constitutes an adequate comparison or originality? Are people ever willing to before making an assertion that something is the truth? Because the responses in the past year to things like isekai and magic schools within this community has convinced me that a lot of people just need somebody really loud to act like something is infinitely more present than it actually is and they will mindlessly and thoughtless roll with it. Nobody seems to really look at how much of a role these shows play in the broader scope of the seasons released. Nobody seems to think about priorities or developments or how the series approaches and treats its concepts, it's just "lol OP protag harem isekai." That can fuck off, honestly, that is pointless and completely vapid and haphazard. Nobody talks about the differences of the series, and I don't think that something like Overlord and something like Death March are in any way comparable by what they prioritize and how they develop themselves and approach themselves as media past what I have already outlined earlier. But nobody talks about things like that. We don't stop to fucking think, we just see base constructs - "Protag is OP, there are girls, videogame isekai" - and treat everything as completely uniform. And that is something I view as insanely negligent and I've kept my mouth shut on it back when the exact same superficial bullshit was the M.O. back when it was magic school stuff, and I'm fucking exhausted with the sheer ridiculousness of it from then and I'm certainly not getting anything more out of it this time around. I'm having none of it at this point >_> |
ManabanSep 20, 2018 7:18 AM
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Lisbon said: I have made nothing except the argument against these types of series being incredibly derivative throughout this thread. all I did on this thread was say that I like the genre but it's all really similar and cliche, isn't it the same? |
blumenbaltSep 20, 2018 7:18 AM
| Cause there's almost no isekai that dares to do anything different. It's always Male Protagonist gets sent to fantasy mmorpg and gets harem. |
Lisbon said: Just separating myself from this as my stance is the fact that the majority of any genre isn't going to be quality. Going by that argumentatively is fine, but the Isekai conversation is focused on more than anything else. New kids on the block getting made fun of and singled out.We are literally crying over-saturation and spam at 2% or 3% of the entire fucking market since 2012. I'm sorry, but I'm not taking that seriously anytime soon >_> |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Grey-Zone said: xchyssa said: Overused/repetitive tropes and cliches. I do hope japan would do a move on isekai. They are getting carried away with this market trend. Meanwhile I still wait for someone to give me list of that "endless amount" of copy&paste isekai that's greater than the list of 3 I listed above... Be my guest. While I pray for a less isekai in the market. Honestly though, I have nothing against isekais and I like re:zero, overlord, konosuba and a few of others. But thing is isekai getting over saturated and it goes without saying (atleast for me) (︶︹︺) |
RapidShadow said: @Grey-Zone you made me do too much work https://myanimelist.net/anime/37446/Hyakuren_no_Haou_to_Seiyaku_no_Valkyria?q=Master%20of%20rag https://myanimelist.net/anime/35203/Isekai_wa_Smartphone_to_Tomo_ni?q=Isekai https://myanimelist.net/anime/5781/Isekai_no_Seikishi_Monogatari?q=Isekai https://myanimelist.net/anime/37210/Isekai_Maou_to_Shoukan_Shoujo_no_Dorei_Majutsu?q=Isekai https://myanimelist.net/anime/31240/Re_Zero_kara_Hajimeru_Isekai_Seikatsu?q=Isekai https://myanimelist.net/anime/34497/Death_March_kara_Hajimaru_Isekai_Kyousoukyoku?q=Death%20ma https://myanimelist.net/anime/34104/Knights___Magic?q=Knigh I asked a list for the various "copy&paste" isekai though because the argument was about whether or not isekai can be considered "all just the same stuff". I already listed Smartphone, Hyakuren and Death March as such, even though Death March was mostly affected by the adaptation issues. Re:Zero is considered one of the unique and good ones. So doesn't count. I already explained Knights and Magic earlier and it being a unique case due to being a rare isekai fantasy mecha, so it cannot count towards this even though it had a too rushed adaptation and too much CGI. I'll give you Isekai Maou as being somewhat of an ecchi harem "discount Overlord". I don't know about Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. That turns 3 into 5 now. Still not the majority of isekai. FragileGlass said: 1.cliche af 2. Chracters are dull (example: kirito from sao good traits kind thats it) SAO isn't isekai. Kirito acts in a virtual world, not an actual, physical different world. I think the new upcoming season will get closer to isekai with some kind of "simulation" instead of a "game", but it's still not isekai. |
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blumenbalt said: all I did on this thread was say that I like the genre but it's all really similar and cliche, isn't it the same? For the love of god, man, just read please xP Lisbon said: I have made nothing except the argument against these types of series being incredibly derivative throughout this thread. If you're arguing that they're all really derivative and cliche, and I'm arguing that they're not nearly as uniform as people treat them like, are we making the same point? -------- Lunilah said: Lisbon said: Just separating myself from this as my stance is the fact that the majority of any genre isn't going to be quality. Going by that argumentatively is fine, but the Isekai conversation is focused on more than anything else. New kids on the block getting made fun of and singled out.We are literally crying over-saturation and spam at 2% or 3% of the entire fucking market since 2012. I'm sorry, but I'm not taking that seriously anytime soon >_> Yeah, arguing the quality of them is fine, I feel like that should go without saying tbh. I'm just kind of zeroed in on perceived over-saturation, and what seems like pretty haphazard and superficial ascriptions of uniformity within isekai. |
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| main characters are mostly overpowered in some aspects and whiny/annoying plots are shallow and one-demensional |
Lisbon said: For the love of god, man, just read please xP Lisbon said: I have made nothing except the argument against these types of series being incredibly derivative throughout this thread. I read a couple of times again and I got it, thanks for the patience xD |
Lisbon said: Quality wise i feel like most well known and/or liked Isekai can exist without the label and without compromise. Yeah, arguing the quality of them is fine, I feel like that should go without saying tbh. I'm just kind of zeroed in on perceived over-saturation, and what seems like pretty haphazard and superficial ascriptions of uniformity within isekai. Edit: To elaborate, that most are just an adventure and it's a consequence of being Isekai and has no real meaning other than it being the premise. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Nah, I should be apologizing if I'm being too pushy, if anything xP I'm kind of agitated with this topic. I was agitated with the magic school harem thing too before it was isekai and I'm agitated at this now and I'm kind of just letting loose here xP Nothing personal or anything, or at least I hope it doesn't come off that way. |
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Comander-07 said: the same reason why every magic highschool battle anime was bad till proven otherwise - they are everywhere. Its the same over and over again. And there is no plot, so they fill that gap with ecchi and harem. Also its better to be sceptical and get positively surprised than the other way around A fair point, but isekai branches off into different directions much more since the author can write a whole unique world with barely any limitations. Compared to that, magic highschool is largely centered around some magic academy with school stuff and battle tournements, which is much more restrictive. Of course it comes down to the author in the end. The only magic highschool anime I consider good or at least watchable are Rakudai kishi no cavalry and Mahouka. |
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| I love isekai anime. I'm just glad japanese love it so much that I can get at least like two isekai per season. |
| Eh, I like isekai. Death March was pretty fun too. But yeah people don't really think for themselves on that topic. Everyone just parrots the consensus without realizing that, no, these isekai shows are not all the same, in fact they cover a broad range of shows from grimdark to derpy, with different foci and strenghts and weaknesses. Because of the negative consensus people are kinda eager to hate on them and will usually focus on the negative aspects or even be on the lookout for them from the start, or only remember the bad examples or parts of these shows. In short, people just like circlejerking about hating the same stuff and isekai is one of the targets that almost nobody questions so it's 'easy'. And boy do people love easy targets where they can expect their opinion not to be challenged, but indeed praised and supported by tons of people, without even having to flesh it out or properly argue in favor of it. Me, I get suspicious when large masses universally shit on something. It's almost never warranted and they're just being one-sided pricks who like patting each others back for rephrasing the same opinions over and over again without adding much argumentation to them. Like, I can't even remember when I last saw an actual good or unique argument against isekai rather than the same clichés and prejudices being regurgitated over and over again. Which sounds like what they say about isekai, doesn't it? So, honestly, the hate on isekais is more generic, clichéd, same-ish and uninspired than most of the shows themselves. Where the shows differ, the criticism aimed at them does not and that's not a sign that the criticis are doing a good job of differentiating. |
AlcoholicideSep 20, 2018 7:41 AM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
this has been a really frequent thing I've been seeing lately on MAL forum, idk if it's recent but I'm getting quite annoyed about it Pullman said: So, honestly, the hate on isekais is more generic, clichéd, same-ish and uninspired than most of the shows themselves. Where the shows differ, the criticism aimed at them does not and that's not a sign that the criticis are doing a good job. that's actually a really good point on what we should really be critizing, wow. |
blumenbalt said: they are mostly and usually really similar you can cast spells, you have to know the combat, the universe has diferent patterns each time but it always has similarities, for the isekaigame genre is usually something like, " oh this thing here is the same but this one is really diferent ohh.. " for example. There are different quirks but it usually comes back to the same execution. Congrats. You just described every series that ever had the tag "Magic" or uses a magic system. blumenbalt said: I completely agree that the execution is the point here, but the pattern that you need to have the world building because of the mc's introduction into the new world, is the same. the engine that makes the story flow is the same. blumenbalt said: once again, the same pattern to make the story flow, also there are some similar ideas and executions sometimes like, the mc arguing if he's capable of killing or not, if he should return or not, there are different executions but a lot of patterns are the same. The isekai concept is fundamentally just the farmboy/child/country bumpkin MC of fantasy taken to the extreme. Both serve the same purpose: the escalation curve. Earth and some quiet fantasy starting town generally aren't the most whimsical place in a story. They serve to establish something familiar and grounds the story before the crazy fantastical. That character becomes your POV into introducing the wonders of your world in a way that allows the viewers to experience the world just as the characters are. You establish the setting with a character who is unfamiliar with it, allowing for more leeway in introducing said world. The munchkins in The Lord of the Rings started at the same starting line as the munchkins in Narnia. So are you going to be complaining about fantasy in general then? Of course it's going to be generally the same. If we're going to get that ridiculous over the large overarching narrative and/or expectations of a genre or niche without considering how vastly different their specific setups are and how their execution differs and matters, then how about we do it for all stories that follow The Hero's Journey. blumenbalt said: not necessarily, there are a lot of animes where the mc already knows most of the characters that are going to interact, but it will be presented to the audience later. The point is that meeting new people is not an isekai exclusive trait. Of course people are going to meet and they are going to interact. That's called a story. blumenbalt said: this is every ecchi anime ever you mean, I don't think there is any particular reason for the need that the cast should be at least 65% female in a medieval isekai setting, but it always does everytime. there may be some, but usually the main cast is attractive yes, but I do agree that this point is one flaw, I just don't understand why does it need to have a good amount of attractive girls in a medieval isekai setting. The point you should ponder on is: I just don't understand why does it need to have a good amount of attractive girls in a medieval isekai setting every anime. |
 You gave up your freedom of speech when you clicked Agree to the User Agreement This is not a public platform. My gaze is the measure of all things: I stopped considering "anime" a helpful tag Recommended Essays Exploring Actually Excellent World-Building |
| I believe the inclusion of the harem + ecchi abomination spurns most people away from isekai genre overall. Mainly because it will copy paste stuff already seen in non-isekai harem+ecchi combinations. We already have enough fanservice as it is. This is coming from someone who likes the concept of isekai. For example, Re:Zero, .hack//, Vision of Escaflowne, Now & then Here & there seemed to be the only ones without dabbling in such combinations and were very enjoyable shows on their own. Digimon might count as well but it was something I watched as a kid and have forgotten about it already. Reasons being that they tried to break that silly mold of a person dying/trapped in VR -> getting transported to new world -> Becomes the most powerful person where everyone likes to suck off the MC's dick or pussy -> MC is highly competent in all tasks and destroys enemies with remarkable ease-> Press boobs to get girls. (all of which are much more commonly seen in the vast array of isekai LN and manga). Overlord is an odd-ball as well, it is extremely redundant, blase and brings nothing new to the table, but it is an example of a cliche that manages to be enjoyable regardless. I honestly think of it as the Skyrim of anime. Very shallow but fun to watch. It hasn't dabbled in harem, so that is indeed a plus for me. Ofcourse, it's as they say, a few rotten apples spoils the bunch. However harem+ecchi is a rather commonly employed trope in wish-fulfillment fantasies, and that's probably what turns people away. There will be some diamonds in the rough, devoid of such elements nonetheless. |
KreatorXSep 20, 2018 7:59 AM
 Truly a Divine Comedy  |
| @Grey-Zone All things considered, Isekai offer a wider variety than Fighting Shounen for example. Yet, Fighting Shounen aren't under the same scrutiny. I think. I also agree with what @Lisbon said. |
| You're a louse, Roger Smith. - R. Dorothy Wayneright This is my fight! No Senpai, this is our fight! - Kojou Akatsuki & Yukina Himeragi  |
blumenbalt said: this has been a really frequent thing I've been seeing lately on MAL forum, idk if it's recent but I'm getting quite annoyed about it Pullman said: So, honestly, the hate on isekais is more generic, clichéd, same-ish and uninspired than most of the shows themselves. Where the shows differ, the criticism aimed at them does not and that's not a sign that the criticis are doing a good job. that's actually a really good point on what we should really be critizing, wow. Though to be fair the isekai hate on MAL is not as bad as what happened in 1-2 years ago when there was this great "taste war" going on between self-proclaimed "anime elistist" who view anything that aired from the year 2000 and onwards as trash and only view stuff like the original Legend of Galactic Heroes and Cowboy Beebop as good against those who have the opposite views, though that might have been mostly trolls on both sides because it became a fun "game" at the time. There's also the "battle" between pure seasonal and pure long-running anime watchers... |
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| The thing is that people get too hung on the conceptual similarities of a bunch of them and ignore or don't even pay attention to the vastly different nexecutions and tones and foci of these shows. Conceptual similarities are literally why we even call this a subgenre. You find them in any subgenre. If they had NOTHING in common, we would not be grouping them together. People who only ever focus on what a genre or subgenre has in common, are missing the point and wasting their time. That certain things are gonna be the same or similar is the whole point of them being grouped together and no genre is an exception to that. It's redundant to talk about and not really clever or observational to point out, it's just showing you understand why it's called a genre or subgenre: Because of the common elements A, B, C and D. If you want to argue that the isekai shows are all the same you have to show that they are the same BEYOND the basic subgenre similarities that are inherently built in. Like the transport to another world, the exploring and learning about said world and a somewhat adventurous feels that comes with that kind of setup and some other stuff. Otherwise you're not criticizing a specific show, you're simply describing the whole (sub)genre. Which you don't have to like, but it's not good criticism to just describe something. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Grey-Zone said: blumenbalt said: this has been a really frequent thing I've been seeing lately on MAL forum, idk if it's recent but I'm getting quite annoyed about it that's actually a really good point on what we should really be critizing, wow. Though to be fair the isekai hate on MAL is not as bad as what happened in 1-2 years ago when there was this great "taste war" going on between self-proclaimed "anime elistist" who view anything that aired from the year 2000 and onwards as trash and only view stuff like the original Legend of Galactic Heroes and Cowboy Beebop as good against those who have the opposite views, though that might have been mostly trolls on both sides because it became a fun "game" at the time. There's also the "battle" between pure seasonal and pure long-running anime watchers... wtf are you talking about? I've been on MAL almost every day for 8,5 years now and that 'war' never happened. All that ever happened was an influx of threads ranting about the imaginary elitist boogeymen that never showed up. If anything, I've been fighting a war against the majority of the community who consider everything before 2000 or 2006 or 2010 trash. The opposite only exists in such small numbers that it hardly exists at all, definitely not enough to wage any kind of 'taste war'. It's always just been people bashing anyone with 'elitist anime' in their favorites based on less than a handful of actual oldschool elitists that ever visited this site. Even perfectly reasonable and nice users were bullied away from MAL just for enjoying old anime. So one-sided bashing from casuals against people who enjoy old anime and don't see them as inherently inferior, is closer to the truth than this 'taste war' you made up. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
RapidShadow said: @Grey-Zone do you want more? https://myanimelist.net/anime/15315/Mondaiji-tachi_ga_Isekai_kara_Kuru_Sou_Desu_yo?q=Isekai https://myanimelist.net/anime/14765/Ixion_Saga_DT?q=Ixion%20 https://myanimelist.net/anime/11933/Oda_Nobuna_no_Yabou?q=Oda%20no Mondaiji is comparable to No Game No Life as being one of these over-the-top fun ones, though not exactly a parody like konosuba. It's still vastly different from NGNL though, because despite the very similar setting, the flow of the story is completely different, as where NGNL mostly focuses on the 2 main characters who are already mostly "complete" beings other than their co-dependence, in Mondaiji the 3 main characters integrate more into the world itself - and unlike NGNL they are strangers in the beginning, and on top of that they are imperfect and still have room for development. Ixion Saga is a fun comedy isekai more similar to Konosuba, but Ixion Saga came first and was mostly under the radar. Oda Nobuna... I didn't watch it, but while it was indeed isekai, from what I know it was following the "Oda Nobuna" anime trend which existed back then more than that of isekai. Also I don't know what other series it might have copied or copied it. Pullman said: Grey-Zone said: Though to be fair the isekai hate on MAL is not as bad as what happened in 1-2 years ago when there was this great "taste war" going on between self-proclaimed "anime elistist" who view anything that aired from the year 2000 and onwards as trash and only view stuff like the original Legend of Galactic Heroes and Cowboy Beebop as good against those who have the opposite views, though that might have been mostly trolls on both sides because it became a fun "game" at the time. There's also the "battle" between pure seasonal and pure long-running anime watchers... wtf are you talking about? I've been on MAL almost every day for 8,5 years now and that 'war' never happened. All that ever happened was an influx of threads ranting about the imaginary elitist boogeymen that never showed up. If anything, I've been fighting a war against the majority of the community who consider everything before 2000 or 2006 or 2010 trash. The opposite only exists in such small numbers that it hardly exists at all, definitely not enough to wage any kind of 'taste war'. It's always just been people bashing anyone with 'elitist anime' in their favorites. You might be right. I take your word for it. I just remember that some time ago a lot of those threads about anime elitism popped up and that I had the impression that most of them are trolls. But I do think that more of those threads existed than isekai hate threads now. |
Grey-ZoneSep 20, 2018 8:04 AM
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Grey-Zone said: RapidShadow said: @Grey-Zone do you want more? https://myanimelist.net/anime/15315/Mondaiji-tachi_ga_Isekai_kara_Kuru_Sou_Desu_yo?q=Isekai https://myanimelist.net/anime/14765/Ixion_Saga_DT?q=Ixion%20 https://myanimelist.net/anime/11933/Oda_Nobuna_no_Yabou?q=Oda%20no Mondaiji is comparable to No Game No Life as being one of these over-the-top fun ones, though not exactly a parody like konosuba. It's still vastly different from NGNL though, because despite the very similar setting, the flow of the story is completely different, as where NGNL mostly focuses on the 2 main characters who are already mostly "complete" beings other than their co-dependence, in Mondaiji the 3 main characters integrate more into the world itself - and unlike NGNL they are strangers in the beginning, and on top of that they are imperfect and still have room for development. Ixion Saga is a fun comedy isekai more similar to Konosuba, but Ixion Saga came first and was mostly under the radar. Oda Nobuna... I didn't watch it, but while it was indeed isekai, from what I know it was following the "Oda Nobuna" anime trend which existed back then more than that of isekai. Also I don't know what other series it might have copied or copied it. Pullman said: wtf are you talking about? I've been on MAL almost every day for 8,5 years now and that 'war' never happened. All that ever happened was an influx of threads ranting about the imaginary elitist boogeymen that never showed up. If anything, I've been fighting a war against the majority of the community who consider everything before 2000 or 2006 or 2010 trash. The opposite only exists in such small numbers that it hardly exists at all, definitely not enough to wage any kind of 'taste war'. It's always just been people bashing anyone with 'elitist anime' in their favorites. You might be right. I take your word for it. I just remember that some time ago a lot of those thread about anime elitism popped up and that I had the impression that most of them are trolls. I don't think I've ever seen a 'taste war' on this site. Only trends as to what is the coolest thing to bash at the moment, the 'consensus' of what is approved of getting bashed even without arguments, just by naming it. Ecchi's always been on that list as well as battle shounen, and for a while 'elitist anime' (which just means anything that's criticially acclaimed or old or obscure) topped the list, and more recently isekai has been hogging a lot of that glory. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Grey-Zone said: KatsutoSaki said: We're talking about "some" people here. Every fan base has haters, so yeah, deal with it. Also, if isekai were bad and hated by people, they wouldn't be getting anime adaptations, to begin with. End of Story. I specifically saw quite a few anime youtubers on their "what i watch in season X 201X" videos dismiss any isekai instantly as trash regardless of anything. My guess is that one of the big anime youtubers once made a video ranting about how terrible isekai are which caused many others to copy paste that behaviour and it influenced a lot of the Western anime community. Anime YouTubers are worthless pieces of shit. Almost all of their videos make no sense. Using clickbait titles, and baseless crap in their videos, they declare what's the worst and what's not. Their views on a specific trope or a show is irrelevant af (to me at least). If people are gonna follow them, without even giving it a thought and saying they are right. And taking their words as facts. Then so be it. You can't change someone who doesn't even have the capacity to think by themselves... So, no matter how much hate "some" people direct towards isekai. As long as it sells, it'll always prove them wrong. |
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Pullman said: Grey-Zone said: Mondaiji is comparable to No Game No Life as being one of these over-the-top fun ones, though not exactly a parody like konosuba. It's still vastly different from NGNL though, because despite the very similar setting, the flow of the story is completely different, as where NGNL mostly focuses on the 2 main characters who are already mostly "complete" beings other than their co-dependence, in Mondaiji the 3 main characters integrate more into the world itself - and unlike NGNL they are strangers in the beginning, and on top of that they are imperfect and still have room for development. Ixion Saga is a fun comedy isekai more similar to Konosuba, but Ixion Saga came first and was mostly under the radar. Oda Nobuna... I didn't watch it, but while it was indeed isekai, from what I know it was following the "Oda Nobuna" anime trend which existed back then more than that of isekai. Also I don't know what other series it might have copied or copied it. You might be right. I take your word for it. I just remember that some time ago a lot of those thread about anime elitism popped up and that I had the impression that most of them are trolls. I don't think I've ever seen a 'taste war' on this site. Only trends as to what is the coolest thing to bash at the moment, the 'consensus' of what is approved of getting bashed even without arguments, just by naming it. Ecchi's always been on that list as well as battle shounen, and for a while 'elitist anime' (which just means anything that's criticially acclaimed or old or obscure) topped the list, and more recently isekai has been hogging a lot of that glory. Yes I hyperboled that a bit. But you forgot to mention that before isekai, another common target was magic highschool series. Since many of them suddenly popped up one after another for a time. |
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| @Eanki I don't wanna do all the editing again so, not quoting this time what I tried to say is that usually all those traits come as a whole packeage, the isekai wagon of characteristic, you could say that, that if separated of course, don't exclusively belong to the genre, but they all together usually formulate what isekai is, and people usually complain about that point, that this packeage is being used a lot, some things change here and there but it always has it's core. That's why I think some of the good isekai usually become famous, re zero because the mc is not op for example, overlord because of it exceptional world building, same for log horizon, they don't focus on what most isekai focus on, they still have their package of characteristics but they differ, people usually overlook the differences and call it cliche because it has some of the same traits they've seen before. and I don't know why there are always attractive girls in isekai because most of times they are warriors or people who are frequently in battle, who are people who should have scars, built body stuff like that, things that we don't usually see. I do know why there are attractive girls in anime in general xD I understand your point that isekai are diferent a lot of times, to me those little differences are what keeps me on watching the genre, besides boobs I just think that there are some traits on these kinds of anime that every isekai has, however what I don't understand is why people complaing exclusively on isekai because of it. Like you've mentioned magic schools animes, or other subgenre animes always has this pack of characteristics that are used over and over and I rarely see people complaining about other stuff besides isekai genre |
| It is such an over saturated setting. When there is three shows a season with the words isekai in the title people will grow tired of them. |
Grey-Zone said: Pullman said: I don't think I've ever seen a 'taste war' on this site. Only trends as to what is the coolest thing to bash at the moment, the 'consensus' of what is approved of getting bashed even without arguments, just by naming it. Ecchi's always been on that list as well as battle shounen, and for a while 'elitist anime' (which just means anything that's criticially acclaimed or old or obscure) topped the list, and more recently isekai has been hogging a lot of that glory. Yes I hyperboled that a bit. But you forgot to mention that before isekai, another common target was magic highschool series. Since many of them suddenly popped up one after another for a time. yeah true, those are the same shows that people also call 'battle harems', right? I never watched those since they don't interest me but they probably reacher their peak in the asterix/rakugai season when everyone went crazy over how similar those two were, IIRC. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: I don't think I've ever seen a 'taste war' on this site. Only trends as to what is the coolest thing to bash at the moment, the 'consensus' of what is approved of getting bashed even without arguments, just by naming it. Ecchi's always been on that list as well as battle shounen, and for a while 'elitist anime' (which just means anything that's criticially acclaimed or old or obscure) topped the list, and more recently isekai has been hogging a lot of that glory. the yaoi and yuri stuff are being trendy lately as well, isn't it ? |
blumenbalt said: Pullman said: I don't think I've ever seen a 'taste war' on this site. Only trends as to what is the coolest thing to bash at the moment, the 'consensus' of what is approved of getting bashed even without arguments, just by naming it. Ecchi's always been on that list as well as battle shounen, and for a while 'elitist anime' (which just means anything that's criticially acclaimed or old or obscure) topped the list, and more recently isekai has been hogging a lot of that glory. the yaoi and yuri stuff are being trendy lately as well, isn't it ? Not that I've noticed. Those genres were never popular outside of their niche fanbase so I wouldn't say it's a recent trend or anything like that. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: Homogeneous premise that has little or no impact on the anime as a whole. They become indistinguishable from basic fantasy/magic anime, with soft rules. I have vehement disgust for SAO BUT, i wish more Isekai took from it's dual worlds story telling, because they seem to throw away it's reality and implications.If you want to argue that the isekai shows are all the same you have to show that they are the same BEYOND the basic subgenre similarities that are inherently built in. Like the transport to another world, the exploring and learning about said world and a somewhat adventurous feels that comes with that kind of setup and some other stuff. Otherwise you're not criticizing a specific show, you're simply describing the whole (sub)genre. Which you don't have to like, but it's not good criticism to just describe something. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Pullman said: Sorry, I lacked explanation, I meant the LGBT/social justice flame/defense, I've been seeing a lot of threads lately that or complaing about this on animes or the lack of it or some one start bashing on it specially because of the not this shit again crunchyroll controversyNot that I've noticed. Those genres were never popular outside of their niche fanbase so I wouldn't say it's a recent trend or anything like that. |
| It's probably because how uncreative they are, most people always throw out the fact that all isekai are just the same shit over, which they are and it takes really long before you see any actual difference. In the case of anime, you never get to that point. We have a shit ton of school anime, but they're not as hated on like isekai. A bunch of shounen anime that follow the same battle shounen format but they're not as hated on like isekai. Heck, you can even look into gaming, most JRPGs like FF and DQ are just the same rehashed story with a new skin. Etc etc. The ironic thing is though, that despite all the hate isekai on forums, it doesn't change how popular it is. So these stories may not pander to the so call people who care to voice their opinion against it but they sure as heck appeal to a lot that couldn't care less about complaining online about it. |
| There's always going to be something. Give it time and eventually people will move on from isekai to something eles. |
Lunilah said: Pullman said: Homogeneous premise that has little or no impact on the anime as a whole. They become indistinguishable from basic fantasy/magic anime, with soft rules. I have vehement disgust for SAO BUT, i wish more Isekai took from it's dual worlds story telling, because they seem to throw away it's reality and implications.If you want to argue that the isekai shows are all the same you have to show that they are the same BEYOND the basic subgenre similarities that are inherently built in. Like the transport to another world, the exploring and learning about said world and a somewhat adventurous feels that comes with that kind of setup and some other stuff. Otherwise you're not criticizing a specific show, you're simply describing the whole (sub)genre. Which you don't have to like, but it's not good criticism to just describe something. I agree. I like most of them because I have an affinity for fantasy and adventure and that's usually 80% of what these shows are, if not more. As for dual world storytelling, that could definitely be something interesting that would be cool to see more frequently. Then again it immediately makes me think of Garzeys Wing and feel like maybe it's for the best anime has avoided that since then xD. blumenbalt said: Pullman said: Sorry, I lacked explanation, I meant the LGBT/social justice flame/defense, I've been seeing a lot of threads lately that or complaing about this on animes or the lack of it or some one start bashing on it specially because of the not this shit again crunchyroll controversyNot that I've noticed. Those genres were never popular outside of their niche fanbase so I wouldn't say it's a recent trend or anything like that. oh yeah, tho I would not see this as an anime specific trend, it's just the current political climate seeping into every aspect of people's lives including their hobbies. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
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