| What i mean is, do anime fans actually care about the various aspect of cinematography like how shots are framed, use of editing, the general frame to frame of a show, lighting, camera movement, etc.... Everyone loves to talk about plot, and animation (though some times they mean art when they say animation), but no one really talks about other aspects of an anime. People hardly mention the music even. I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on this. Where do your cares lie? Below ima do a quick dissection of a scene to try and show some of the stuff you can look for in terms of cinematography. watch/read if you want. take this scene for example. i picked drifters because it current, i dont mean to call it the standard for all anime. I think it has way more problems than not but under good qualities, I'd say most things in the show are attention grabbing. Largely through use of contrast and colors, mostly orange and black. The constant use of extreme close ups on eyes as well as low angle shots also adds to everything feeling intense all the time. (People connect with eyes more than any thing else, and when shot at low angles, it makes things seem more imposing) Under bad: The camera shots are awkward and dont flow into each other. It's hard to tell what action anyone is doing, when they started the action or where the action even came from until a decent amount of time after its done. This means there was no "anticipation" in the action among some other issues. There's no sense of space or setting and a lot of the action moves in conflicting ways to what would feel right (when toyohisa escapes the first attack, he jumps up in the middle of the screen and falls down in the middle of the screen somewhere else, this doesnt convey movement properly since he stayed in the same place on the screen). A lot of these problems come from editing too, which in this show consist of a series of jump cuts. A lot of the extreme close ups of feet, thighs, sword handle, etc all seem to be pointless, and dont properly convey movement, which i think is there intended purpose. Kinda like the camera is afraid of not having constant cuts... theres more to dissect here but i think thats enough for now. Maybe what you get from this scene in terms of how it was shot is different and that's fine. Its a discussion/argument id be down to have. Edit: i regret now not putting an example of good cinematography to counter drifters.... not offering any counter examples makes me look like just a hater :( i couldve use kaiji or even for shonen i thought my hero acadamia did a lot awesomely in how it was shot.. dont got much time on my hands now, but maybe i'll make a new post at some point |
ComboSmoothNov 28, 2016 2:23 PM
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
| If you are wondering why a lot of anime has cinematography like this, it's because they are usually very literal adaptations of the manga. i.e. they follow the flow of the panels. But honestly drifters' general direction has been bad to begin with. Like you are kinda taking a subpar anime in terms of direction and equating it to the direction of every single anime. EDIT: if I'm being unclear, i'm telling you that your argument has no decent basis. There are many anime with good direction, with an even larger following. It's just that the casual cinefile has no idea what the standards for direction are. But then again, something doesn't have to follow the standards for directing to be good. I also don't know what you are comparing it to in terms of "good". Live-action movies? Because the standards for good direction in terms of live-action and animation are different. You're just comparing two entirely different things as as far as I can tell. (yes to call something bad, you need to have a point of reference for what is good, and considering everything you said mostly applies to LA movies, I suppose that's what you consider as "good".) |
metadataNov 26, 2016 8:16 AM
| No, we just care about boobs and booty. |
| Anime doesn't have cinematography. I do care about the stuff you mentioned. |
| Well atleast I do care about it ... But it is just one aspect of anime and most people don't even talk about it .. Heck people don't even think cinematography exists in anime.. |
| Well, the lazy cinematography in newer anime from the past 5 or so years is one of my pet peeves. Especially in the case of adaptations of manga, where a lot of them treat the manga as a readily available storyboard and simply copy-paste it almost panel to panel. Light novel adaptations (and obviously originals) thankfully don't have something convenient like that to rely on, so for the most part, they have much more competent cinematography, since they are forced to properly transform the source material in a way that is suitable for TV. |
| First it has to have Imoutos/Lolis for me to care about it. |
| I find cinematography to be just as important as characters and plot from a non bias perspective but from personally experience I don't care enough about it so to really pay attention Just like how I didn't notice School Days has this weird camera angle until I saw a guy in a review mention it |
 |
| I do. Though I pay more attention to background music and voice acting. |
 |
demonskul777 said: If you are wondering why a lot of anime has cinematography like this, it's because they are usually very literal adaptations of the manga. i.e. they follow the flow of the panels. But honestly drifters' general direction has been bad to begin with. Like you are kinda taking a subpar anime in terms of direction and equating it to the direction of every single anime. EDIT: if I'm being unclear, i'm telling you that your argument has no decent basis. There are many anime with good direction, with an even larger following. It's just that the casual cinefile has no idea what the standards for direction are. But then again, something doesn't have to follow the standards for directing to be good. I also don't know what you are comparing it to in terms of "good". Live-action movies? Because the standards for good direction in terms of live-action and animation are different. You're just comparing two entirely different things as as far as I can tell. (yes to call something bad, you need to have a point of reference for what is good, and considering everything you said mostly applies to LA movies, I suppose that's what you consider as "good".) i wasnt trying to use drifters as the standard for all anime... i only used it because its current. I agree that live-action and animation get to follow some different rules, but they have way more in common than not... But maybe your right, maybe i shouldve also brought in a scene that i thought was good to better demonstrate my points. |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
| Cinematography =/= editing, tho' both is on storyboarding |
 la critique de l'intention pure |
karambia said: Cinematography =/= editing, tho' both is on storyboarding cinematography includes editing though.... If anything, id say storyboards are what often don't contain any editing. Its a series of keyframes for the most part. |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
| Everyone mainly focus on plot and art....not rlly recognizing the stuffs u mentioned...that's just how the anime community is :/ |
 |
| Well, I suppose i care about it honestly. I've always appreciated that sort of thing whether i am watching live action or anime. It is true sometimes (all the time for some people), you don't really notice it even, therefore i think people maybe just overlook it. Sure it is storyboarding and editing but knowing what you mean (OP) and what you talk about I sure do appreciate it from time to time. That's just how i feel about it. |
| Sadly, nobody cares about the way the shots are staged or lit. If they did, Hyouka would be much more popular than it is. Also, your example isn't great, Drifters has been mostly shit so far in every way, cinematography included. Also, also, it's not that easy to work in, for example, moving camera into animation, unless you work with full CG backgrounds - which is why ufotable shows look so premium. |
 |
Nyron said: Literally no one cares about cinematography, because by Nature it's the thing that you don't notice until it's not there For the longest time I couldn't quite Define why FLCL was so great, until one day I realized that every single sequence was amazingly directed, and that led to me remembering the scenes much easier, whereas no one remembers Blue Gender. Humans are visual creatures and a lot of the things we have Nostalgia for had a great cinematography, because that's how we remember them. Though plenty of anime fans seem to be content with watching still heads on poorly drawn backgrounds talk about nothing, so maybe they are just mentally deficient. These are the kind of people that just watch 50 shows a year and I don't remember any of them a week after theyou end. my thinking largely aligns with yours. I think most people do notice cinematography, but subconsciously. For me too, it often takes me more than one episode or viewing of a scene to understand why i think its great or why it bothers me... I'd say even the guys who watch all of the shows still pick favorites. They might not full grasp why its their favorite, but it probable has a lot to do with cinematography |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
| Not really. Most anime that I've seen don't seem to have bad or noticeable framing issues. I'm here for intriguing characters, moving music, and impressionable emotions. |
 Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
| Even though I don't value it as much as the story, OST, and characters, cinematography is still one of the most important aspects of anime. I know that there's plenty of people who fail to appreciate it but it was one of the biggest reasons why Erased received so much hype early on. You can point to cinematography as a key factor in the several of several acclaimed anime series (Ergo Proxy, Steins Gate, Monster, etc.). To be honest, cinematography has been a major focus in my reviews. When I checked out Black Cat (one of anime's finest examples of cinematography) and its first OP, that's what really set me down this path. The theme song is a masterpiece of camera angles and lighting. Not to mention that musically it's simply fantastic. Check it out for yourself: |
lunaticsrus said: no, lighting departement it was. Both was different. In the real situation/real movie cinematography is all about framing the shot, the pick of angle, camera movement, and lighting. Editing is use in joining one shot ot another shot(s) to compose a scene and cut it out some unimportant or unnecessary part. It was equal ground of important and synergy but not the same. karambia said: Cinematography =/= editing, tho' both is on storyboarding cinematography includes editing though.... If anything, id say storyboards are what often don't contain any editing. Its a series of keyframes for the most part. the only planning of both stuff in animation merge in storyboarding. see storyboarding or manga panel as example. I don't think these was so legit, but it close in my mind about how storyboard was, the simple one  The point/keyframe 1-2-3-4 use diffrent angle of shot, the point which shot to be composed in editing already planning there obviously, chronologically. try to break that like make it 3-1-2-4 in editing order probably will ruin and make bunch of the shot pointless narrative-ly. |
karambiaNov 26, 2016 10:31 AM
la critique de l'intention pure |
GamerUnglued said: Would you say that applies to Endless 8?Framing a shot differently can change the way we are supposed to think about what was just presented to us.  |
|
Nyron said: Shoryu said: Not really. Most anime that I've seen don't seem to have bad or noticeable framing issues. I'm here for intriguing characters, moving music, and impressionable emotions. Bro that's because your list is nothing but 9/10 shows for adults You've apparently never subjected yourself to something like haikyu or a generic romantic comedy based on a light novel You're right, I forgot to check my anime viewing privilege before commenting. :x But er, if I had to be honest, I think something like Legends of the Galactic Heroes, despite being highly praised, doesn't really have "great" cinematography, especially considering the fleet battles. Star Wars, I think, is superior to this; however, such fleet battles didn't have to be exhilarating because of the shots, but because of the stakes of whomever won or lost. I write this to say that, lazy cincemtography can be excused if most of the forefront elements (characters, sound effects, music, etc) leave a stronger impression. Also, amusing user title there, ayyy |
Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
| Helps preserve interest but I don't think much of it unless it's really good or really bad |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| Oh yes I certainly do. Good directing enhances, if not a major essence of, the viewing experience. Sword of the Stranger, Cowboy Bebop, Attack on Titan, Ergo Proxy, and Haruhi Suzumiya excel at cinematography which is mainly what makes them such a pleasure to watch. Camerawork and the like should never be taken for granted in the case of interpreting, conveying, and transitioning between scenes. Even shows like Boku Dake put themselves into the correct path, even if the director himself doesn't prove to be skillful enough for the task. I highly encourage anime to take advantage of the audio-visual medium rather than to play it safe with moving manga panels. It takes a hell of a lot more than sound and color to have be absorbed in the moment. Ezekiel said: Anime doesn't have cinematography. Do elaborate. |
AltoRoarkNov 26, 2016 9:59 AM
Ezekiel said: Conglaturations for being a retard.Anime doesn't have cinematography. I do care about the stuff you mentioned. |
AltoRoark said: I would like your opinion on endless 8 then when it comes to just the cinematography since each episode has different shots if I remember correctlyOh yes I certainly do. Good directing enhances, if not a major essence of, the viewing experience. Sword of the Stranger, Attack on Titan, Ergo Proxy, and Haruhi Suzumiya excel at cinematography which is mainly what makes them such a pleasure to watch. |
|
Deknijff said: He hasn't even seen season 2 yet tho.AltoRoark said: I would like your opinion on endless 8 then when it comes to just the cinematography since each episode has different shots if I remember correctlyOh yes I certainly do. Good directing enhances, if not a major essence of, the viewing experience. Sword of the Stranger, Attack on Titan, Ergo Proxy, and Haruhi Suzumiya excel at cinematography which is mainly what makes them such a pleasure to watch. |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
poppyface said: Darn Deknijff said: He hasn't even seen season 2 yet tho.I would like your opinion on endless 8 then when it comes to just the cinematography since each episode has different shots if I remember correctly thats too bad then sorry for bothering you AltoRoark and thanks for bringing it to my attention poppyface |
|
Deknijff said: poppyface said: Darn He hasn't even seen season 2 yet tho. thats too bad then sorry for bothering you AltoRoark and thanks for bringing it to my attention poppyface Aw no problem :3 Though you've sure brought that to my attention, so I'll look forward to watching that. |
AltoRoark said: I think this is the very first time I’ve ever heard of someone looking forward to watching Endless 8 Deknijff said: Darn thats too bad then sorry for bothering you AltoRoark and thanks for bringing it to my attention poppyface Aw no problem :3 Though you've sure brought that to my attention, so I'll look forward to watching that. But I hope you have fun analysing it |
|
| Lack of it isn't preventing me to find something good, "bad" direction on the other hand is a good way of killing the interest. Of course, I have no knowledge outside of the basis so a lot can fly over my head (like with Kizumonogatari I, even after someone delivered me an explanation, it seems so ridiculous that I still can't see those red/black/french pannels that way) (same things with live movies) 1. "anime fans" mainly consume TV formats 2. those animations are rarely an exercice in the direction department. = most "fans" don't care about it. Of course, there are a few directors out there who bother(ed) with it on TV works, but I often found more in theatrical or OAV projects. The problem here is the "fan" word. When you talk about cinema fans, they aren't just watchers/consumers , they like the cinematographic aspect (probably putting it with other technical sides above the rest) and discuss about it. When you look at what you call "anime fans", they are not. They are mere consumers of their medium. Note: reading this thread, it looks like manga itself is judged as lacking any cinematography... PS: someone mentionned stills as opposed to this idea, but still shots allow to do interesting things too. |
Rei_IIINov 26, 2016 10:17 AM
Deknijff said: Even if Endless Eight was a terrible idea to begin with, it could have been improved. The new camera angles introduced into each episode only added some comedy occasionally, but not much else. I think it would have been drastically better if we got more shots of Yuki Nagato with each episode. Every time we see her, we could get a camera angle that looks distressing and bored. Juxtaposed against Nagato's emotionless face, that could have not only been really creepy in terms of atmosphere, but also allow us to better enter Nagato's headspace, which was the point of the arc in the first place. That being said, it should have been 5 episodes at most, and even 3 would have been fine.GamerUnglued said: Would you say that applies to Endless 8?Framing a shot differently can change the way we are supposed to think about what was just presented to us. |
GamerUnglued said: I would of been fine with it just being 2 episodes honestly but thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts on thisEven if Endless Eight was a terrible idea to begin with, it could have been improved. The new camera angles introduced into each episode only added some comedy occasionally, but not much else. I think it would have been drastically better if we got more shots of Yuki Nagato with each episode. Every time we see her, we could get a camera angle that looks distressing and bored. Juxtaposed against Nagato's emotionless face, that could have not only been really creepy in terms of atmosphere, but also allow us to better enter Nagato's headspace, which was the point of the arc in the first place. That being said, it should have been 5 episodes at most, and even 3 would have been fine. |
|
Specimen021 said: Sadly, nobody cares about the way the shots are staged or lit. If they did, Hyouka would be much more popular than it is. Also, your example isn't great, Drifters has been mostly shit so far in every way, cinematography included. Also, also, it's not that easy to work in, for example, moving camera into animation, unless you work with full CG backgrounds - which is why ufotable shows look so premium. i only picked drifters because its current/popular and im not watching much at the moment... i don't mean to use it as the standard for all anime. the being said, i also things its crap. I guess what i meant by camera was, just the shot sequence. Like what they chose to draw and from what perspective. |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
| well its not likely something that everyone can talk freely about also how many people would take notice of it?... but yeah lately ive been considering how the lighting and camera movement can spoli or support my enjoyment in anime. well... now that makes me think about all the distant shot scenes that i ive seen in some anime that i just lost interest in. and all the anime where the camera isnt focused on the person who speaks atm but is kinda distant from the camera. those ways may spoil the show. |
| Sonic X is basically an isekai |
| Yeah, but most of us aren't versed enough in the field to support lengthy, in-depth discussions about it beyond 'I liked___because'. However, I've seen evidence of a lot more knowledge here than other communities *cough* kdrama *cough*, where it's obvious 90% don't even know wtf it is lol. Same goes with music--if we were all composers we'd have a lot more to say about structure, production, application, etc. |
| I mean if you are talking about the general public or the average mal user, yeah you aren't gonna find any worthwhile discussion on cinematography, most of them are cancerous, autistic philistines and shitposters who don't give a shit about the merits of art and cinema. But there is a thriving community on youtube that cares about these kind of things, and there are many intelligent and worthwhile creators on the site analyzing exactly this, as well as music and everything else that can be dissected. I'll link to an Every Frame A Painting video since he is the perfect example, and is someone who doesn't focus only on anime. He also used to be a professional editor. Edit: this is a video about mamoru hosoda's use of the lateral tracking shot in a scene from wolf children that does not contain spoilers. https://youtu.be/pdSKot0psNg I'm sure if you go the comments of videos like this or to these creators reddit pages and things like that you will have a higher chance of finding worthwhile convos. |
GoldNautilusNov 26, 2016 4:04 PM
| Well I decided to watch Berserk 2016, but the first ep already almost made me drop it. For some reason I just couldn't care about what happened and that was not because of the Animation but rather because of piss poor cinematography. The bar fight scene was shot so badly that the sense of distance and position was just gone and there are many maaaany orher scenes in that show screwed it up. Berserk 1997 on the other hand may have dated visuals but the cinematography was 10000000 times better. A good example from that show is in the first ep where Guts swung his sword and then Decapitated the snake guy. The swing of the blade felt so powerfull because it was shown in multiple angles and whatnot. |
| I do love it when an anime impresses me in terms of cinematography, but I'm not requiring efforts in that field to enjoy something. but good cinematography makes it more likely something will end up being one of my favorites, like Bebop or the Yuasa stuff. Beautiful Dreamer had great cinematography as well. It just tells me whether a director cared, whether he's ambitious, or just either unmotivated or lacking talent. At the end of the day it's always a great bonus that can elevate something already good to real greatness, but to me it's not a substitute for having me interested in the contents, the characters, the writing of a show or movie. Cinematography without interesting characters and events is lost on me unless it's only a short movie. I'm not one of those purists who can enjoy cinematography on it's own no matter the context. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Once you start to notice how badly most anime are directed, you'll become like me, which won't find a lot of pleasure in watching anime. I've said before, and I'll say it again, most anime directors don't know jack shit about directing, when even I, as layman in cinematography, can spot all the messy things that they do; no sense of flow, senseless cut shots, weird angles(i.e., using low angle shot, when high angle would've been better), if there's an action scene, the camera is always rotating and the visual information is never clear about what is happening, dutch tilts for punch-lines or some weird depiction of inner or outer turmoil. Here's an example, I am struggling to finish Space Brothers, because, the cinematography is so bad, that I am just annoyed to watch it. Why, you might ask? Well, in the 80 episodes that I've seen, because it follows the manga panel by panel, and does not utilise the format in which it is conveying the story, the camera always slides, from left to right in every scene for 5-10 seconds and vice versa. So, once you start notice this, you're constantly getting annoyed and nauseated because it just slides, with many still shots. This happens with many other anime, especially those that are being adapted from a manga, and I find it to be less and less entertained by the medium, as cinematography is one of the most important things in this visual storytelling medium. If the cinematography is bad, then, you're probably less likely to enjoy it, that is, if you're familiar with cinematography. All good directors can and will use traditional cinematographic techniques, with the added benefit of having more freedom in the way you can direct certain scenes thanks to the free space you're having in the animation medium. One last thing, good editing is as important as cinematography. If you're interested, take a look, as Brad Bird directs both animation movies and live action. |
 |
| It's very important imo, the way it is drawn or rendered has a big impact. I think audiovisuals is at the very heart of what makes anime worthwhile, otherwise I might as well read a book almost. Size Background/foreground Symmetry Colour Micro Macro Perspective Angle Etc. etc. |
BoiiiiiiiiiiNov 26, 2016 4:56 PM
 |
| Of course they care. Perspective is a very important aspect of animated media. Directors are always trying to bring camera techniques to their anime. |
 Click the banner for anime lists, discussions, reviews, and let's plays! |
| It matters. Plot and animation can be affected if the cinematography isn't done well in fact. Having shots and camera angles badly done or unchanging can possibly ruin the scene or make it very dull. Also how could you casually film a brilliant panty shot without cinematography? kek |
| If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
More topics from this board
» what do you think about anime elitism and which anime would fit here?selfawarecorpse - Today |
26 |
by Sonwig
»»
1 minute ago |
|
» Hidden Gems of Summer ( 1 2 )JaniSIr - Yesterday |
59 |
by JaniSIr
»»
5 minutes ago |
|
» Do you like it when anime girls are beaten by boys?Catalano - Oct 4 |
26 |
by SushiRoe
»»
7 minutes ago |
|
» Waifu War V5 (Anniversary-Edition!) (Round 1) ( 1 2 3 4 )TheMinkalex - Sep 28 |
194 |
by Sheol01
»»
10 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » [Waifu War] A waifu that wields Gun vs SwordsVabbingSips - 37 minutes ago |
1 |
by Sheol01
»»
27 minutes ago |