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Poll: Mawaru Penguindrum Episode 18 Discussion


#1
Nov 10, 2011 12:55 PM

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THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE.
----------------------------------------
So... I saw that there wasn't an episode 18 discussion topic and I created this.
Despite not knowing Japanese that well, I watched the whole episode raw and I actually understood it!

We get to see Tabuki's past and how he met Momoka. Himari decides to sacrifice herself to stop the pain, but Tabuki has a change of heart and saves her. He then meets Yuri (who still has the diary!) and she slaps him. The Takakura brothers embrace and Ringo joins the group hug.
Oh, and Sanetoshi's a zoophile. O_O

I'll comment more tomorrow after I watch the subbed episode.
 
#2
Nov 10, 2011 1:10 PM

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Tabuki was holding Himari as a hostage so that Kanba would tell him where their father (Kanba and Himari's) was.
 
#3
Nov 10, 2011 1:15 PM

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LadyOrihime said:
Tabuki was holding Himari as a hostage so that Kanba would tell him where their father (Kanba and Himari's) was.


Thanks. I didn't catch that.
But Himari and Kanba don't know where he is, right? And even if they knew, I don't think they would tell Tabuki. Then why did Tabuki have a change of heart?
 
#4
Nov 10, 2011 1:42 PM

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Ryuu_Hou-ou said:

But Himari and Kanba don't know where he is, right? And even if they knew, I don't think they would tell Tabuki. Then why did Tabuki have a change of heart?


No, Kanba don't know where his father is, but from what I understood, it seems that the organisation that lends money to Kanba is controlled by Kanba's father or something like that. So, Tabuki took Himari as a hostage to force Kanba to tell him.

And, I think Tabuki's change of heart is because Kanba reminds him of momoka of he says that he's not going to give up saving Himari ( even if he is going to lose his hand)!

But I don't really get what Tabuki says to Yuri so I don't understand the slap ( but Yuri says something about Tabuki using her, but that's not really the reason ):( I have to re-watch it with subs!

Omg, this episode was full of background music! This episode is amazing!! <3
 
#5
Nov 10, 2011 1:55 PM

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Did not have time to comment on last episode and probably will not. This episode was so raging that I woke half the house. First of all a big FUCK YOU for Tabuki in the following spoiler
damn bastard daring to do that to Himari was instant rage. However the moment Kanba with his face as follows,

Appears. I got me happy going that he will save her. As things really went bad with Himari in the spoiler
with countless raging and anger for the position she is in and that bastard doing that to her. Damn cunt Tabuki really is shit. Who the heck can you accuse someone that is nor directly responsible. It’s like me saying I will kill all humans because they sin. Instead of praying to kill the one person responsible Satan as a vague example. Point being is that you do not fucking ever attack someone who is not responsible directly. You don’t touch their family! You don’t go after their kids and you don’t do this like that ever. Because one person (Satan as in example) is responsible does not mean that (all human being at fault due to Satan) must be killed because you cannot find Satan and accuse them at being at fault. Might be a weak example but an example none the less.

I wanted to so bad something as bad as death to happen to Tabuki from his fuggy/evil face and what he did to Kanba in the spoiler
elevator wires screwed up a lot in his hand. Veins/muscle might not be out of he question to be damaged. In thee end as follows,

Kanba is fucked up and perhaps badly damaged around the arms areas. Himari was perhaps saved by Tabuki and that was WTF because all the rage and wrath was pointless. I would have preferred much more Tabuki to be lying in pool of blood. It would have satisfied much more. Look Tabuki’s past and lovely Momoka all image stitched up in the spoiler
was all dramatic and explanatory of Tabuki.
However I don’t give a rat’s ass about this garbage. I had respect for him before but the moment he did what he did to Himari, he is shit to me. You do not attack a helpless person that is sick. No matter how you look at it.

ON the other hand the broiler with the kids was sick shit. Only Satan aka evil or anything called evil can do that. You tell me how can you put your kid in the same shit that is used to cut cows up so we have meat on our table. HEIN? Right though so.

On top of that Natsume failed on Yuri. I was hoping Yuri would also be gone from the picture for there may be other things to solve. But strangely I see this maybe going for another 1 season of 26 episodes. I don’t see how a transition of 6 episodes is going to cover all. The war and resolution will come to a conclusion but the aftermath may not. That might be required to have an OVA or another season where anything left out from the series will be covered.

Despite saying all that very rage/depressing episode where the miracle just does not cut justice as much as seeing those who you hate not die out in thee end. Maybe more later.
kleeny said:
Ryuu_Hou-ou said:
But Himari and Kanba don't know where he is, right? And even if they knew, I don't think they would tell Tabuki. Then why did Tabuki have a change of heart?
No, Kanba don't know where his father is, but from what I understood, it seems that the organization that lends money to Kanba is controlled by Kanba's father or something like that. So, Tabuki took Himari as a hostage to force Kanba to tell him.
It's not only Kanba's father but Natsume's father also and I knew that too. Kanba's father and Natsume's father are twins. Kanba and Natsume have both the same hair colour.
Modified by Yumekichi11, Nov 16, 2011 7:16 AM

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#6
Nov 10, 2011 2:11 PM

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Yumekichi11 said:
LadyOrihime said:
Tabuki was holding Himari as a hostage so that Kanba would tell him where their father (Kanba and Himari's) was.
That was so plain stupid when Kanba did say he does not know and the fuck shit head still did not believe. Yeah that's why Tabuki to me now = shit that stinks and needs to be out of this show.

Why would he believe? Their parents are responsible for Momoka's death for all he knows. He's not thinking rationally just like Yuri.
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#7
Nov 10, 2011 2:21 PM

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kleeny said:


And, I think Tabuki's change of heart is because Kanba reminds him of momoka of he says that he's not going to give up saving Himari ( even if he is going to lose his hand)!


That's what I think also. If Kanba knew where their father was, he would have told Tabuki, instead of denying it and watching Himari's life - literally - hang in the balance; I think that finally sunk into his thick skull.

Himari also asks Tabuki to forgive (or not blame) her brothers before she jumps.
 
#8
Nov 10, 2011 2:55 PM

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Urufuzu_rein said:
Yumekichi11 said:
LadyOrihime said:
Tabuki was holding Himari as a hostage so that Kanba would tell him where their father (Kanba and Himari's) was.
That was so plain stupid when Kanba did say he does not know and the fuck shit head still did not believe. Yeah that's why Tabuki to me now = shit that stinks and needs to be out of this show.

Why would he believe? Their parents are responsible for Momoka's death for all he knows. He's not thinking rationally just like Yuri.
Again too bad for him and his hypercritical attitude. Considering her was totally against it last episode. Sure he was not thinking rationally but neither was I at raging at him. Point being is he did something far more worse than initially he was too even think of doing, which really should be nothing since he was all against it last episode till the very twist at the end.

Now we all know what comes around goes around? Can't wait to see the bad luck on him and Yuri. Both of them are bat shit insane for their means to ends meets.
Urufuzu_rein said:
Yumekichi11 said:
LadyOrihime said:
Tabuki was holding Himari as a hostage so that Kanba would tell him where their father (Kanba and Himari's) was.
That was so plain stupid when Kanba did say he does not know and the fuck shit head still did not believe. Yeah that's why Tabuki to me now = shit that stinks and needs to be out of this show.
Why would he believe? Their parents are responsible for Momoka's death for all he knows. He's not thinking rationally just like Yuri.
You know Himari is way too good in her kindness for all the world.

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#9
Nov 10, 2011 3:00 PM

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Another fantastic episode... another one that made me cry so much... so touching.. so dramatizing... so emotional... so painful yet so heart-warming...

kleeny said:
But I don't really get what Tabuki says to Yuri so I don't understand the slap ( but Yuri says something about Tabuki using her, but that's not really the reason ):( I have to re-watch it with subs!
It's because Tabuki used her and says that they can't pretend being a family anymore.

Yumekichi11 said:
Yeah that's why Tabuki to me now = shit that stinks and needs to be out of this show.
Don't you think that your rage is similar to that of Tabuki and Yuri? Don't you think that one of the themes of the show is teaching love and kindness? Remember how many hated Ringo until they learned about her past? And how everybody hated Masako and Yuri but then got to pity them?? Those poor kids.. abandoned by their own parents, sent to the children broiler... think about it.
 
Nov 10, 2011 3:03 PM

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Yumekichi11 said:

Now we all know what comes around goes around? Can't wait to see the bad luck on him and Yuri. Both of them are bat shit insane for their means to ends meets.

Don't know about that. Most of the characters in this show are abnormal without having been put through the shit Yuri and Tabuki experienced. I'm still hoping for a fairly happy end though.
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Nov 10, 2011 5:01 PM

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soulelle said:
Yumekichi11 said:
Yeah that's why Tabuki to me now = shit that stinks and needs to be out of this show.
Don't you think that your rage is similar to that of Tabuki and Yuri? Don't you think that one of the themes of the show is teaching love and kindness? Remember how many hated Ringo until they learned about her past? And how everybody hated Masako and Yuri but then got to pity them?? Those poor kids.. abandoned by their own parents, sent to the children broiler... think about it.
Yeah, I lost it. I still think Tabuki went too far and I still think his change of heart certainly does not convince of forgiving him but certainly there is somewhere the relief Himari did not die.
Urufuzu_rein said:
Yumekichi11 said:
Now we all know what comes around goes around? Can't wait to see the bad luck on him and Yuri. Both of them are bat shit insane for their means to ends meets.
Don't know about that. Most of the characters in this show are abnormal without having been put through the shit Yuri and Tabuki experienced. I'm still hoping for a fairly happy end though.
Interesting notion but I think the degree is far more for Tabuki and Yuri. Yuri especially with all the crap her father put her through.

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Nov 10, 2011 5:54 PM

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Everything looked fantastic this episode, especially that opening scene!

Now we're seeing more of the Child Broiler, although there's still many questions about it that need to be answered. Is it part of the Takakura family's company? Why did I get a Human Instrumentality Project vibe?

I'm confused about the part with Tabuki and Himari. If she fell, did he catch her or something to save her?
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Nov 10, 2011 6:06 PM

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Salinga said:

I'm confused about the part with Tabuki and Himari. If she fell, did he catch her or something to save her?


yeah, Tabuki caught Himari. :)

wow, another fabulous max episode! loved it! Well for what i understood, Tabuki got to punish the Takakura´s instead of leaving Yuri doing it because Yuri would have done it worst. also, it seems Tabuki will be leaving Yuri since he said "sayonara". I really wish both stopped their common obsession of Momoka and formed a real family. Tabuki seemed to be in great pain when he said to her they were just a fake family, and then Yuri seemed to be mad, but also sad.

Another hint that Masako might be Kanba´s real sister when she said "Kanba i cannot leave you anymore in that house".

Shouma being emo part 3 lol. But it was adorable how Ringo joined Shouma crying for them. Shouma x Ringo FTW. Damn i really want two things in this show: to understand what the f*** is going on and see Shouma and Ringo as a canon couple.

I feel sorry for Kanba loving his sister. Even if she wasnt his sister, i dont see them staying together as a couple in the end

Child broiler is the most confusing part. i shivered. Seems like a real weird place.

Hum. Momoka was really interesting, i wonder what she was. I mean, the girl always appears out of nowhere to save others, and she was just a child.

oh men, no survival strategy in this ep T_T LOL

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Nov 10, 2011 6:15 PM

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Im suprized they didnt break out into survival strategy when she was being dangled. And why is shouma being such an idiot and not taking himari to the hospital?... First hes late, then he doesn't listen to the person who knows whats going on?.. Since ringo is there, she can carry himari, he can carry kanba, so he doesnt even have to worry about abandoning family in a place where they where almost killed.
 
Nov 10, 2011 6:21 PM

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LMFAO shouma /would/ be chilling in the train, spacing out, during such a crucial point of the story. gj shouma, you are my fave as always.

momoka's such a weirdo, telling strangers that you love them even though they don't know who the fuck you are. but man, am i the only one bothered how tabuki was the only one who managed to escape the "child broiler"? :I what about those other kids...
Modified by zoldicks, Nov 10, 2011 6:27 PM
 
Nov 10, 2011 6:35 PM

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So with this we can conclude everyone in this anime had horrible parents...
 
Nov 10, 2011 6:54 PM

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WHAT IS WITH THE PARENTS IN THIS SHOW!? EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Oddly enough, I imagine Tabuki and Kanba are blood related, by father or mother? I'm thinking by father. Those were my first thoughts and i'm still hanging on to that. I'm kind of iffy on this, but maybe Kanba was the 'talented brother' but, hey, speculating. If not that, i'm guessing it's one of the characters.

Anyway, this was an awesome episode.
 
Nov 10, 2011 7:05 PM
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hahaha my thoughts exactly when theyre telling tabuki's childhood, everyone in this show has some fucked up parents. i wouldnt be surprised if that guy has pink hair because his parents wanted him to be a girl and that also fucked up his upbringing and doing all these crazy shit
"....i am the villain in this story"
 
Nov 10, 2011 7:13 PM

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HoshiNeko said:
WHAT IS WITH THE PARENTS IN THIS SHOW!? EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Thats what I thought when I saw Tabuki's flashback.
I was like, WTF is up with the adults in this show O_o
 
Nov 10, 2011 8:06 PM

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Very good episode,as many people said WTF are wrong whit this parents all are so fucking assholes.
Probably Tabuki wont appear for a while, maybe until the end.
Kanba being a badass and sacrifice his hand for Himari.
Also Shouma being late to the party and Ringo telling him that she will never hate him :3

And the big question of the episode are Kanba and Masako really siblings or something more deep mmmm we will get more answers soon.
 
Nov 10, 2011 8:19 PM

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Look at me, look at me, the monster inside me has grown this large.

Couldn't resist.
 
Nov 10, 2011 8:31 PM

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Another excellent episode. I love how the penguins provide some nice comedic relief during the serious scenes.
 
Nov 10, 2011 8:51 PM

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Why must the all the parents in this show be complete dickweeds? Yeah, that's right. Adults are just downright horrible.
 
Nov 10, 2011 9:30 PM

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Amazing episode. I think this show might end up as one of my favourite anime ever.

Even after this episode, I can't hate Tabuki. Also Kanba is a badass and is underrated.
 
Nov 10, 2011 10:01 PM

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really good episode. I feel like it's coming to the climax but there's still 6 eps left. :,(
 
Nov 10, 2011 10:02 PM

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Bio said:
Look at me, look at me, the monster inside me has grown this large.

Couldn't resist.

haha. That's from Monster, right? :)
 
Nov 10, 2011 10:07 PM

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Blacksaber said:
So with this we can conclude everyone in this anime had horrible parents...


Reminds me of legend of the legendary heroes.



on this episode... meh i wanted himari to really die but that would make kan and sho out of the story , i dont see them the type that would want revenge.
 
Nov 10, 2011 10:13 PM

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...Child broiler???? O_o This show sure has some perverse imagination.

Also, Himari is certainly good at not dying. Survival strategy, indeed. :P

Really intense episode; definitely one of my favorites so far. Tabuki's actions in this episode were certainly inexcusable, but I'm still willing to give him a chance at this point. This show really makes me identify with nearly all of the characters.
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Nov 10, 2011 10:14 PM
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Splendid episode.

I cannot hate Tabuki. Emotions are powerful and humans are irrational and ugly. No doubt should all humans be exposed to similar traumatic experiences to Tabuki and Yuri we would find even the nicest and most rational of people have their ugly sides exposed.

The ending was forgiveness at its finest sense, i can only wish he has a happy ending.
 
Nov 10, 2011 10:30 PM

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Never really thought Tabuki would end up being so significant to the plot, it appears no one is what they seem.
 
Nov 10, 2011 10:59 PM

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Tabuki with a quick change of heart.

Can anybody explain to me why there are more favorites for Shouma than Kanba? Shouma has been useless while Kanba is doing work.
 
Nov 10, 2011 11:14 PM

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Love this show..
hi
 
Nov 10, 2011 11:21 PM

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i think tabuki set up a trap for yuri where she ended up in that showdown with masako when she thought she would be catching himari and sort of torturing her in a similar manner to get to kanba and sho. i think thats what she meant by "used." love akira ishida for lyfe, but hate tabuki. his character is useless.

himari is the most immortal fuck ive ever seen. nothing can kill this girl. really glad ringo got some screen time. i was hoping she would bust over that fucking gate tho and do something epic. im scared 6 episodes isnt enough to answer all the questions.

PLEASE BE A GOOD ENDING I LOVE THIS SHOW TOO MUCH FOR IT TO END BAD :(
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Nov 11, 2011 12:24 AM

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LOL! So, Tabuki, just like everyone else in the show, is another character whose life was screwed up thanks to their parents. He thought if his hand became impaired and he couldn't play piano anymore his mother will pity him and end up favoring him over his genius brother, but it didn't work. Children tend to think that life is so simple like that. I wonder if the broiler is an actual 'other-worldly' place like the library or a metaphor of how children who give up on their dreams and lilife end up becoming souless nobodies in real life. I guess Momoka had that black mark to prove that it might be the former.

And man, once again, Shouma failed to save the day and be Ringo's prince on a white horse. At least he and Ringo will be alright from here on out. Also, loved the penguin drama, especially when #2 tried to cheer #1 up with flipping pages of a porn magazine while getting treatment, and of course, Esmeralda with those rose petals that she tossed at Masako.

It seems Masako might attempt to kidnap Kanba or something in the next episode to keep him out of harm. Is what she said another clue that Kanba was adopted? And I think this is the first time we've seen that pub/diner in the preview. Could it be some meeting place of the organization that the Takakura parents belongs to?
Modified by Hayatempest, Nov 11, 2011 1:55 AM
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Nov 11, 2011 1:33 AM

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fireteam_torch said:
...Child broiler???? O_o This show sure has some perverse imagination.
This indeed. 'Don't worry, it won't hurt' and 'It wil just make you unrecognisable from the rest', damn,

I already caught from the first episodes that it was weird for the family to have three hair colours: Kanba red, Shouma purple and Himari blonde. Also the different eye colors.
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Nov 11, 2011 1:49 AM
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SoFarGone said:
Tabuki with a quick change of heart.

Can anybody explain to me why there are more favorites for Shouma than Kanba? Shouma has been useless while Kanba is doing work.


The way I see it is that I find Shoma really funny, and his penguin is even funnier. The penguins are meant to represent the owner's personalities. Kanba isn't funny at all, and Shoma's involved in a love story, so that oughta get some of the ladies. Plus he's cute! XD Kanba's good looking too, but he's a playboy! Some of Shoma's expressions are also very funny.

So many questions answered and more pop up! Tabuki's hand got answered somehow, even though we still don't know what caused it. I am beginning to think that it doesn't matter anymore, as a nameless injury had caused him his mother's love and met Momoka.

Lol at the penguins once again.

When Himari was about to fall, Penguin 3 was holding a red wool. Red string of fate again? From my perspective, the logical answer is that the red string of fate and Himari falling symbols that it is her fate to die. WHen I saw the earlier OP, Tabuki was shown with a cage, and I thought, is the bird meant to represent him in a cage? And I was right! HUZZAH! The bird in the cage is a common representation of someone being miserable and trapped away from happiness. When Momoka meets Tabuki, he is free, and his bird escaped the cage.So many representations!

What's going to happen to Kanba's hand? Is it part of the punishment? Will there be more? Is it a new beginning for Shoma and Ringo? The scene where Shoma held his siblings was so sweet! Will Himari take her medicine on time? I was sort of hoping that the Princess of the Crystal was going to initiate survival strategy as Himari was going to fall! Wanted to see Tabuki's reaction! What's going to happen to Yuri and Tabuki's plans now? Are they done with avenging Momoka?

I am boiling over in my own curiousity!
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Nov 11, 2011 1:57 AM
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I think the broiler scene is just self imagination from Tabuki that show how serious depress he is.From Tabuki's PoV, everything seems to be mess up but maybe in reality its maybe just a small matter and kids sometimes does take certain thing too serious while adult just couldn't care less about. I am not an adult and I do not own a family.Even if I do,it is impossible to be careful with my every act toward the children and I can't judge that my every judgement is correct or not toward those children.Even the smallest misunderstanding could lead to suicide ...sometimes X(.
All parent love their children .

In himado, I saw a very interesting message and I believe there are alot people who read the LN also watching in Himado.People say that penguin drum equal to "miracle".Well since fate is a certain future which is decided by the gods , and maybe miracle is the one that defy the rule of fate by human. If it is true,then Momoka is just a miracle maker.Kanba seems to have a same situation to Momoka.....doing this and you gonna pay that.Now Kanba hurt his own hand. =(
Other than that,I learn that Momoka burn his hand(not by that guy) just to change the fate of Kabuki.This prove that Kabuki's flash back is not entirely correct but his feeling on how he feel about himself and his parent are True.
Modified by MorningGlory, Nov 11, 2011 5:10 AM
 
Nov 11, 2011 2:29 AM

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I'm afraid that formulating theories at this point will only cause my brain to burst... Might as well wait for the next episode, collect more info by then and just rest my mind for today. With all the additional info about Tabuki, Momoka and the Child Broiler thing... seems my mind is spinning already (=。=) guru guru mawaru~

The series is indeed progressing but I still can't put my finger where all of these are going.. I'm not even sure if all the things presented here are in line with reality or mixed up in some imaginary world of a person with some serious mental illness. If that is so, it can be brought upon by: 1.probably an effect of the inhaled gas from the 1995 attack, which can be worsened by 2. perhaps a grave depression of losing someone-- that caused them hallucinations that the person who died can still be saved in some way? Thus, creating this complex world with his perspective of reality confused with what's real and whats not, including the penguindrum, the penguins and all that goes with it? These I'm quite not sure but there can be a possibility of this happening. Pretty much everyone here is a psycho in their own little ways after all so there can be someone here with a mental illness or something, and the rest playing along with his made-up world.

*SLAPS MYSELF* Guess I said too much of my silly assumptions again.

but definitely something really bugs me with Shouma. He always appear useless in the most critical moments. Makes me wonder if he's really into saving Himari. I'm also having a feeling that something fishy is up with him. His #2 is quite creepy for me too if you ask me. #2 and Shouma doesn't really match in terms of their actions. I can think of many reasons, but I don't want to be carried away again in posting all of it here.

anyway, a really good episode :) I look forward for more clues next week~
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Nov 11, 2011 2:52 AM

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internal message "we will be crushing you into pieces now" lol xD

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Nov 11, 2011 2:58 AM

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I really like the pic at the ENDDDD of the episode.The siblings looked so sweet together like that.
 
Nov 11, 2011 3:10 AM

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I like this episode :)
I dislike incest but after watching this episode i don't dislike HimariXKanba as much as i used to be.
It feels like Momoka is the ''main character' of the show more than the Takamura family.
SoFarGone said:
Tabuki with a quick change of heart.

Can anybody explain to me why there are more favorites for Shouma than Kanba? Shouma has been useless while Kanba is doing work.


Kanba does not have as much screentime/importance as Shouma in the earlier episodes.
People will usually have a preference after watching the earlier episodes.

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Nov 11, 2011 3:56 AM

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So just thinking about why Tabuki decided to spare Himari's life...

In his own life, he was abandoned by his parents and left to wither but was saved by Momoka who he calls the saviour of humanity (a Christ-like figure it would now seem).

And I suppose he sees that Kanba too was abandoned by his parents and chooses to save his sister a la his own relationship with Momoka.

Also, earlier comments have touched on the fact that all the parents are shown in a negative light. And it gets you thinking about what is family. Is it just genetics? Is it just a social convention? In a way, is it real? Probably overthinking it, but interesting too. And also also, all this talk of punishment has me pondering... Should you be punished for what your parents or ancestors did? Or is it just humanity trying to find a scapegoat?

So far, the best show of the decade, without a doubt.
 
Nov 11, 2011 4:23 AM

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invazn said:


Also, earlier comments have touched on the fact that all the parents are shown in a negative light. And it gets you thinking about what is family. Is it just genetics? Is it just a social convention? In a way, is it real? Probably overthinking it, but interesting too. And also also, all this talk of punishment has me pondering... Should you be punished for what your parents or ancestors did? Or is it just humanity trying to find a scapegoat?


A family, as idealistic as this may sound, is supposed to be some sort of a sanctuary for every child. Your parents should always be there for you, they should be the last people in the world who would cause you harm and they should make sacrifices for a better life and future for you. Ringo, Masako and the Takakura siblings had that sort of family at one point and they are longing to get that family back. As for Tabuki and Yuri, it was the other way around - Tabuki ended up getting hurt by his failure to meet his mother's expectations, and Yuri's father was a psychotic bastard and the worst of them all.

I think one of the things that the show portrays is how children end up inheriting their parents' sins. Even if you and I think that children should not be faulted for what their parents did, sadly, the majority tend to shun them and take out their anger at them. This is one of the ugliest aspects of humanity.

And yeah, it's beyond me why Shouma is more popular than Kanba. Not that I prefer Kanba over Shouma, but Kanba seems like the badass type that people tend to put on their favorite list.
Kihel:"from Dianna Soreil to Dianna Soreil."
Dianna: "from Kihel Heim to Kihel Heim."
 
Nov 11, 2011 4:47 AM

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Raven_Shinobi said:
invazn said:


Also, earlier comments have touched on the fact that all the parents are shown in a negative light. And it gets you thinking about what is family. Is it just genetics? Is it just a social convention? In a way, is it real? Probably over-thinking it, but interesting too. And also also, all this talk of punishment has me pondering... Should you be punished for what your parents or ancestors did? Or is it just humanity trying to find a scapegoat?


A family, as idealistic as this may sound, is supposed to be some sort of a sanctuary for every child. Your parents should always be there for you, they should be the last people in the world who would cause you harm and they should make sacrifices for a better life and future for you. Ringo, Masako and the Takakura siblings had that sort of family at one point and they are longing to get that family back. As for Tabuki and Yuri, it was the other way around - Tabuki ended up getting hurt by his failure to meet his mother's expectations, and Yuri's father was a psychotic bastard and the worst of them all.

I think one of the things that the show portrays is how children end up inheriting their parents' sins. Even if you and I think that children should not be faulted for what their parents did, sadly, the majority tend to shun them and take out their anger at them. This is one of the ugliest aspects of humanity.
I agree, to some extent parents are not blame but the causes that make them to be blamed.

In this case money is the major problem. With people working too much and not enough time things go wild. In Yuri's case it's the mother who passed away or simply left since her husband obsessed more over work than her hence his job.

While Tabuki can be a severe mother that is pushing him too much. Regardless the fact stays that people like that should be genocided. It might be cruel but how else will you guarantee 100% to me that they will never any of those around?

You can't but you see this anime is showing that people change. Does it infer to Japan changing? I am not sure because the fate notion with the diary is occultist at most. Only Shinto that I know can manipulate through multiple dimension. It's like that anime:
http://myanimelist.net/anime/306/Abenobashi_Mahou_Shoutengai
showing to look for something through many worlds but the world is still the same. Think of Momoka and Yuri's case.

In any case interesting thing and the more so for people who truly grasped the meaning of that anime and compare to this.

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Nov 11, 2011 5:31 AM

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Yumekichi11 said:
Regardless the fact stays that people like that should be genocided. It might be cruel but how else will you guarantee 100% to me that they will never any of those around?

Some people would say that you're just as bad as (or worse than!) people like that for saying something like this. People are flawed. That's just how we are. If you were to kill everyone out there who hates someone else, has tried to take revenge on someone else, or has hurt someone else, there would be no one left.

People change. Most people realise their flaws and try to fix them. Yeah, Tabuki did some awful stuff in this episode, but he realised that and did what he could to fix it. Does he deserve punishment? Yes. Does he deserve to die or worse? No. Does he deserve forgiveness? Maybe.

With parents, it's simiilar. If you'll excuse me for using an example directly from my life, when my older brother and I were little, we lived with our mother. I wont go into details, but her parenting (and her boyfriend at the time's "parenting") was awful. Eventually, social services got involved, and we were taken away from her. That was her punishment; and, after that, she got better. She's now a great parent to my younger siblings. If her punishment had been to die, she'd never had had the opportunity to get better, and my younger siblings would never have even had the chance to exist.

...I think this is just an incredibly long winded way of me saying 'an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind'. I don't believe in taking revenge, no matter what the circumstances. People deserve punishment for their sins, but it should be someone objective and fair who judges them, not someone who is emotionally involved; and, of course, the punishment should not be extended to their family or friends or anyone other than just them.
If any of my posts seem odd, it's probably because I'm tired. Sorry. I have sleeping issues.
 
Nov 11, 2011 5:47 AM
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^
Are you saying that Tabuki should told the police that Kanba involve in dirty business?
The police/high court are objective and fair to judge Kanba I guess .
 
Nov 11, 2011 5:50 AM

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sillyriri said:
Yumekichi11 said:
Regardless the fact stays that people like that should be genocided. It might be cruel but how else will you guarantee 100% to me that they will never any of those around?

Some people would say that you're just as bad as (or worse than!) people like that for saying something like this. People are flawed. That's just how we are. If you were to kill everyone out there who hates someone else, has tried to take revenge on someone else, or has hurt someone else, there would be no one left.

People change. Most people realize their flaws and try to fix them. Yeah, Tabuki did some awful stuff in this episode, but he realized that and did what he could to fix it. Does he deserve punishment? Yes. Does he deserve to die or worse? No. Does he deserve forgiveness? Maybe.

With parents, it's similar. If you'll excuse me for using an example directly from my life, when my older brother and I were little, we lived with our mother. I wont go into details, but her parenting (and her boyfriend at the time's "parenting") was awful. Eventually, social services got involved, and we were taken away from her. That was her punishment; and, after that, she got better. She's now a great parent to my younger siblings. If her punishment had been to die, she'd never had had the opportunity to get better, and my younger siblings would never have even had the chance to exist.

...I think this is just an incredibly long winded way of me saying 'an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind'. I don't believe in taking revenge, no matter what the circumstances. People deserve punishment for their sins, but it should be someone objective and fair who judges them, not someone who is emotionally involved; and, of course, the punishment should not be extended to their family or friends or anyone other than just them.
But you see that's the thing it was meant more to go with the other statement after it but as you say Tabuki did not want to take revenge at first and it never is a solution so WTF happened to him changing his mind?

In fact I am surprised he was not influenced by Ringo considering she is Momoka's sister. Anyway the genocide was a cruel way to show in reaching 100% but you see the change is what should be primordial but there is another problem, what if some don't change and only worsen the change already around that makes things good. You see the Penguin Drum is nothing but a tool for peace. Penguins never go to war but when they do WATCH OUT! I wonder what else of the penguins than the goof offs may be present that ties in with reality.

Reality does dictate that penguin are tame but piss them off and oh boy you in shit! Brainstorming!

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Nov 11, 2011 5:51 AM

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Raven_Shinobi said:
invazn said:


Also, earlier comments have touched on the fact that all the parents are shown in a negative light. And it gets you thinking about what is family. Is it just genetics? Is it just a social convention? In a way, is it real? Probably overthinking it, but interesting too. And also also, all this talk of punishment has me pondering... Should you be punished for what your parents or ancestors did? Or is it just humanity trying to find a scapegoat?


A family, as idealistic as this may sound, is supposed to be some sort of a sanctuary for every child. Your parents should always be there for you, they should be the last people in the world who would cause you harm and they should make sacrifices for a better life and future for you. Ringo, Masako and the Takakura siblings had that sort of family at one point and they are longing to get that family back. As for Tabuki and Yuri, it was the other way around - Tabuki ended up getting hurt by his failure to meet his mother's expectations, and Yuri's father was a psychotic bastard and the worst of them all.

I think one of the things that the show portrays is how children end up inheriting their parents' sins. Even if you and I think that children should not be faulted for what their parents did, sadly, the majority tend to shun them and take out their anger at them. This is one of the ugliest aspects of humanity.


Beautiful philosophical insights. :)) I can actually see both of your points. Truly makes sense and it seems like this is the real message of this show.

It pains me too as I imagine how much of today's children ends up in the "child broiler" mainly because of family issues/problems. Slowly fading into non-existence as they feel unwanted and unloved. Being treated as garbages by their parents or because of the sins brought upon to them by their parents. No wonder some of them who end up there looks like they even don't care if they were shattered to pieces for they are already broken deep inside. As the slogan goes, garbage should just be put to the garbage bin. Maybe they all felt that way.

And then there goes the existence of Momoka. In the case of Tabuki and Yuri, their existence were shunned by their very own parents. They took it as a huge blow, and for them the world might as well end for them. But who helped them get out from the quicksand of depression and self-pity? It was Momoka. One that you can consider a friend.

I guess this show also portrays how important friendship is. Friendship comes hand-in-hand with the word family. Sometimes even the bonds you create with your friends is like the bonds you create with your blood relatives. They help you even to that point of sacrificing themselves. I guess this means that family isn't just about genetics. When you love a person, you already consider them as a family member. And of course, as we create bonds we are unknowingly link by the threads of fate. Like what happened with the friendship between Momoka, Yuri and Tabuki. Shouma with Ringo, Kanba and Masako and Himari and Double H.

One may not be able to face the harsh fate pre-determined for him/her, and to feel helpless is just normal. But if we put the bonds that we created with others to good use, there a possibility that the wheel of fate can turn and our destiny can change. As we change our fate for one person, that person's fate might change also for we are all connected by an invincible thread.
Modified by Momo-Hime, Nov 11, 2011 6:01 AM
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Nov 11, 2011 6:03 AM
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Uhh, whole Child Broiler action was weird. I guess the meaning is obvious, the idea that popped up in my head immediately was that it's just some sort of state of mind where children give up on their dreams to become invisible entity (in other words, a person like anybody else), that would suit to Himari (who had to give up on a dream of being a pop star) too, but then again, what does interacting with real people (Mario in episode 9, Momoka now) there mean? And I'm still wondering why was Mario shown as older one in episode 9, while Himari seems to be older in fact (well, it's possible that it wasn't Mario, but he had his voice).
Momoka getting burned up makes me think she "got him out of the broiler" by using the diary somehow, though. Makes me even more confused about what she could have done.

The last scene was so touching ;~; looking at Shoma embracing his siblings like that was heartbreaking, it was like they really have only each other in the world, but then Ringo came along and said she's never gonna hate them. baww
Modified by Qashqai, Nov 11, 2011 6:52 AM
 
Nov 11, 2011 6:06 AM
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I believe that this is one of the strongest episodes in the series because the metaphors and symbols used in the episode was artistically powerful enough to explain Tabuki's motivations in the beginning and in the end of the episode.

Beginning Scene: Basic Analysis - Tabuki's mother represented the stereotypical parents that want "trophy kids". This type of parent are overly proud of their "good" children. It's close to the parents of kids who overachieve, and that is why it is a stereotype: The idea used to be commonly popular.

The symbol of the "bird in a cage" was cliche, but it does convey Tabuki's character. He is like a bird in a cage in two ways. One, he is trapped by his mother's desires. Two, he, in a way, was meant by his mother to be shown off like a bird. I think the first interpretation is understandable. For the second interpretation, I will elaborate: The only purpose for a bird in a small cage is to be shown off to other people. The bird is there to just look beautiful, and that is its only purpose. The bird owner does not care for its individual freedom: The bird can be fed, petted, and complimented by total strangers, but it cannot be set free.

It is the same way with Tabuki: His mother wanted to show off how wonderful her children are. To do that, she needs wonderful children. That is why she reminds Tabuki: "Your brother has talent". At that moment, she tosses him aside for his brother. Tabuki sought sympathy from his mother by forcefully impairing his hand, but it still didn't work. I'll repeat that in a different way: Tabuki cuts himself to get his mother's attention, but it did not work. That is one f*** up mother.

The (was it broiler?) broiler room was a brilliantly creative metaphor(Anyone who literally thought they were in a broiler room should be slapped). It is a metaphor because that room is compared to the internal feelings of emptiness and neglect of the children. Basically, the children in that room have all been neglected by their parents and are left to feel empty and shallow. They think they deserve to waste away and die. Those children in the broiler represent the children driven to suicide because they cannot live up to their parent's expectations.

Which leads me to Momoka. She sacrifices her life(as I believe is the rule for changing fate) to save Tabuki. She altered his fate, his destiny, by changing his own life. She became his savior and the only reason for him to live. That said, Tabuki's motivation for revenge is more than understandable. You'd expect him to do that.

I want to say more, but I feel like I'm dragging this too far. All in all, this episode is brilliant.
 
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