| A leftist who had served longer than any other current head of state in Latin America, Mr. Morales lost his grip on power amid violent protests set off by a disputed election. President Evo Morales of Bolivia, who came to power over a decade ago, resigned on Sunday after unrelenting protests by an infuriated population that accused him of undermining democracy and extending his rule. Mr. Morales and his vice president, Álvaro García Linera, who also resigned, said their departure was an effort to stop the bloodshed that has spread across the country in recent weeks. But they admitted no wrongdoing. “The coup has been consummated,” Mr. García said. Mr. Morales was once widely popular, and stayed in the presidency longer than any other current head of state in Latin America. He was the first Indigenous president in a country that had been led by a tiny elite of European descent for centuries, and he shepherded Bolivia through an era of economic growth and shrinking inequality, winning support from Bolivians who saw him as their first true representative in the capital. “I want to tell you, brothers and sisters, that the fight does not end here,” Mr. Morales said in a televised address on Sunday. “The poor, the social movements, will continue in this fight for equality and peace.” “It hurts a lot,” he added. Mr. Morales’s reluctance to give up power — first bending the country’s laws to stand for a fourth election, then insisting that he won despite widespread concerns about fraud — left him besieged by protests, abandoned by allies and unable to count on the police and the armed forces, which sided with the protesters and demanded he resign. As the country slipped into deeper turmoil over the weekend, protesters voiced their fear of Bolivia’s trajectory under Mr. Morales. “This is not Cuba, this is not Venezuela!” they chanted in La Paz, Bolivia’s main city, over the weekend. “This is Bolivia, and Bolivia will be respected.” Mr. Morales’s departure is a milestone in the spasms of unrest that have roiled Latin America in recent months. Several leaders in the region have been bedeviled by street protests, acts of vandalism and deepening political polarization — dynamics exacerbated by underperforming economies and rising outrage over inequality. The beginning of the end for Mr. Morales came on Friday night, when a smattering of small police units made dramatic pronouncements that they were breaking from the government and joining protesters angry over suspicions that the Oct. 20 election had been rigged. Officers in La Paz were among the first to join the revolt. Initially, many took to the streets with bandannas or surgical masks covering their faces, apparently fearful of being identified. But as their ranks grew, many shed the masks and used bullhorns to address protesters. “Our duty will always be the defense of the people,” a female officer said through tears in a televised address. “The police are with the people!” When Bolivians went to the polls in October, many expressed hope that the president would suffer the first electoral loss since his landslide victory in 2005. Graffiti messages denouncing Mr. Morales as a “dictator” were ubiquitous in the capital. The opposition felt victorious when initial results showed that Mr. Morales would need to face former President Carlos Mesa in a runoff, having failed to carve out the 10-percentage-point margin needed for an outright win. That scenario was potentially ruinous for Mr. Morales because other opposition candidates had endorsed Mr. Mesa. Without explaining why, election officials stopped releasing information on the vote count for 24 hours. The evening after the election, they announced a stunning update: Mr. Morales had won outright, with enough votes to avoid a second round. Opposition leaders and international observers cried foul, saying that Mr. Morales’s turn of fortune defied credulity. Angry mobs attacked election buildings around the country, setting some on fire. In subsequent days, large demonstrations and strikes paralyzed much of the country. Mr. Morales defended his electoral triumph as rightful and called on supporters to take to the streets in a show of force. Many have, including bands that have roughed up people protesting the government. But on Sunday, the Organization of American States, which monitored the Oct. 20 election, issued a preliminary report that outlined irregularities and said the vote should be annulled. That same day, Mr. Morales called for a new election, in an extraordinary concession in the face of public fury and mounting evidence of electoral fraud — but it appeared to accomplish little. Unappeased, demonstrators and opposition leaders renewed demands that Mr. Morales step down. “Mr. Evo has ruptured the constitutional order — he needs to leave,” said Luis Fernando Camacho, one of the main protest leaders. The president’s hold on power appeared more and more tenuous as the day drew on. Several leading figures in his party resigned, and the military launched operations that appeared intended to protect protesters from violent bands of Morales supporters who have killed several protesters and wounded scores. Mr. Mesa, the former president who came in second in the disputed election, has said that the country’s political parties should come together and organize a new vote. He lashed out at the president and the vice president on Sunday for “this fraud, and the social unrest that has led to several deaths and hundreds of people wounded.” Michael Kozak, the top diplomat at the State Department overseeing Latin America policy, endorsed the call for a new election. “All those implicated in the flawed process should step down,” he wrote on Twitter. The groundswell of anger had been brewing well before the first vote was cast. Many Bolivians saw Mr. Morales’s fourth presidential bid as an affront to the country’s democratic norms. In 2016, Mr. Morales had asked voters to do away with the two-term limit established in the 2009 Constitution, which was drafted and approved during the president’s first term. Voters narrowly rejected the proposal in a referendum — which, under Bolivian law, was supposed to have been binding. But Mr. Morales found a workaround. The Constitutional Court, which is packed with his loyalists, held that term limits constricted human rights, giving Mr. Morales the right to run for office indefinitely. As he was campaigning this year, Mr. Morales told the Brazilian journalist Silvia Colombo that he believed his country needed him at the helm — perhaps as much as he needed to remain in power. “I don’t know what I would do if I were not president,” said Mr. Morales, who keeps a punishing work schedule that starts before dawn and on most days includes flights to remote corners of his homeland. “Bolivia is my life and my family.” Mr. Morales, a member of the Aymara Indigenous people, rose to prominence as a union leader for coca leaf growers. His trajectory to the capital was a transformational moment for a country where Indigenous people had endured years of abuse and withering discrimination. On his watch, the country’s power structure was upended. Women today hold nearly half the seats in Congress, and Indigenous people hold more sway than ever. His first term also coincided with a commodities boom that allowed him and other leftist leaders in Latin America to lift millions out of poverty through subsidies and political patronage. One of the poorest nations in the world, Bolivia used proceeds from natural gas exports to turbocharge its economy. His party, the Movement for Socialism, has long been the country’s dominant political force, controlling both houses of Congress. Opponents struggled to compete with Mr. Morales because of his enormous support, but they also faced enormous personal risk. Mr. Morales has unleashed allies in the judiciary against political rivals, many of whom have landed in jail or gone into exile. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/world/americas/evo-morales-bolivia.html |
   You and the rose are connected. Know the weight of your own life |
| is their economy in trouble thats why the protest? inb4 thats why socialism never works (social capitalism is better anyway #YangGang2020) |
deg said: Nah, the problem was because they held their election with written votes (idk what's called) and during vote counting, they stopped releasing the progress for a day, I think. After that, Morales came out as a winner, then accusations of fraud arose, leading to this point.is their economy in trouble thats why the protest? inb4 thats why socialism never works (social capitalism is better anyway #YangGang2020) |
 Leading biologist Scott Pitnick said: The bigger your 'nads, the smaller your brains |
Bakchos said: deg said: Nah, the problem was because they held their election with written votes (idk what's called) and during vote counting, they stopped releasing the progress for a day, I think. After that, Morales came out as a winner, then accusations of fraud arose, leading to this point.is their economy in trouble thats why the protest? inb4 thats why socialism never works (social capitalism is better anyway #YangGang2020) The problem is far right-wingers want power, and they are backed by the USA. Having a US-backed government means more profit and resources that US industries can exploit from the country as well as slowly strangle countries that are anti-imperialist in Latin America. |
 Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
| Oh, so the attempt of fraud of three weeks ago didn't worked? I guess the people who has been protesting since then are celebrating now, good for them, people shouldn't be allowed to run for over, three terms are enough already. But since he it's a leftist that doesn't matter and this is a CIA coup or some bullshit like that i guess, no reports from Bolivia since that joke called election and now people will act like if this came of nowhere. |
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| Even though Evo managed the economy well, he wasn't being very democratic with that 4th term to say the least and apparently corruption was a problem in his government. But I'm not sure if anything good will come out of another coup d'état in South America, especially knowing his opponents. Not sure if the military, Mesa or Camacho will take office. I wonder if they'll revert Evo's nationalization of oil, gas and lithium. |
| Well, Evo Morales attempt fraud and let's not forget this referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Bolivian_constitutional_referendum But he managed the economy well at least unlike Macri, the worst president in Argentina. |
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traed said: Bolivia also has nationalized natural gas and oil so a CIA plot to back economic neoliberalism and get the oil is not out of question. Same thing that was happening in Venezuala. wow :O I didn't know about that. I guess I suffered from a lot of amnesia to forget about something old fashioned. I do not deny that Evo probably had a good mandate in the economic field. However, I understand that he can only be re-elected three times, and he himself tried to seek a fourth term. The vote gave him a "NO" and he still wanted to obviate the result as Chavez did when he lost his idea of implementing a Socialist State against "NO" in 2007. Seriously, if it's oil, the oil of any country wants it from any other country, it's common sense. They are commercial interests that no one should take so seriously in the end of this decade ... |
You and the rose are connected. Know the weight of your own life |
Rachiba said: traed said: Bolivia also has nationalized natural gas and oil so a CIA plot to back economic neoliberalism and get the oil is not out of question. Same thing that was happening in Venezuala. wow :O I didn't know about that. I guess I suffered from a lot of amnesia to forget about something old fashioned. I do not deny that Evo probably had a good mandate in the economic field. However, I understand that he can only be re-elected three times, and he himself tried to seek a fourth term. The vote gave him a "NO" and he still wanted to obviate the result as Chavez did when he lost his idea of implementing a Socialist State against "NO" in 2007. Seriously, if it's oil, the oil of any country wants it from any other country, it's common sense. They are commercial interests that no one should take so seriously in the end of this decade ... It was nationalized in Bolivia in 2006 I guess apparenly unless I read into it wrong. The constitution had limits but a court ruled he could run overturning the consititution from what I gather. So while it is questionable it isn't inherently corrupt. I dont know enough about it . |
traed said: It was nationalized in Bolivia in 2006 I guess apparenly unless I read into it wrong. The constitution had limits but a court ruled he could run overturning the consititution from what I gather. So while it is questionable it isn't inherently corrupt. I dont know enough about it . What I say that if oil were nationalized or privatized, it is quite irrelevant. Generally speaking, the quality of services offered in a country is not based on the fact that everything being controlled by the State is safe for the population, or that the Private Company makes access to a certain group of people more difficult, or vice versa. I cannot give a clear example, but I understand that "socialism" in Portugal is going quite well with state control in certain services, but also leaving some participation to private companies. Well, as long as it is for the welfare of the population, there is no problem. But it does not mean that this can be applied effectively in other countries, especially if it is collapsed in the absence of money-> Venezuela, but this is not due to US sanctions, that this is something that I am totally convinced of. that the oil problems are due to 12 years before with the massive dismissal of personnel who had been working before Chavez for years. I can't say much about Bolivia. However, with respect to that dictation of said court excusing that "it officially has two mandates as of the change of constitution of the year 2009". For that 2016-2017 in which there was the ruling, it is very suspicious since previously Evo had lost in the referendum and said that if so, he would not insist on seeking reelection. |
You and the rose are connected. Know the weight of your own life |
| Coup clear as day saw it coming few weeks back when usa department was tweeting in support of opponent. You have to be mega mega idiot at this point not seeing this pattern.Watch western liberal and conservative freedom fighters claiming that it is not CIA that is meddling and people just want freedom but after some year later when secret document will be released that indeed it was the truth, they will be silent repeating same cycle to another country. Funny how they cry Russia interfering in their election. or evo is playing some 20000 dimension political chess here. |
ultravigoNov 10, 2019 8:31 PM
| inb4 white saviors defend this dictator edit: too late i guess Evo made a referendum asking the people if he should run for president for the 4rth time, people said no, Evo said fuck you an ran for president anyways then when it was clear that he wasnt winning round one, rigged the elections 2 million bolivian people protested on the streets... but i guess they were all paid by the CIA according to conspiracy theorists |
silversaintNov 10, 2019 9:58 PM
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silversaint said: Yeah this time I SWEAR GUYS its not CIA[you are a conspiracist if you believe this BTW].All the overthrow of leftist government in south america was just a fluke whose opposition JUST HAPPENS to gather support from america like always and you just know USA happens to love freedom and democracy ™️ even though they installed various right wing dictators and are in bed with other dictatorial regime who are allegiance with them, i swear even though we have a concrete evidence,files and historical pattern its not cia this time like always.THIS TIME ITS DIFFERENT I SWEAR. inb4 white saviors defend this dictator edit: too late i guess Evo made a referendum asking the people if he should run for president for the 4rth time, people said no, Evo said fuck you an ran for president anyways then when it was clear that he wasnt winning round one, rigged the elections 2 million bolivian people protested on the streets... but i guess they were all paid by the CIA according to conspiracy theorists https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md >2 million bolivian people protested on the streets... but i guess they were all paid by the CIA according to conspiracy theorists There was also a million in support of rally for evo ,no shit!! people will have different opinions,support and opposition will always be there, so there will be either protest or support rally.Your head is in air if you believe opposition leaders aren't in bed with usa departments when they tweeted in support of opposition. Also geo-politically Bolivia was moving away from usa and they also have huge huge natural resources [like gold, lead, silver, antimony, tungsten, zinc, petroleum, natural gas,etc.] which was nationalized and lead to one of the fastest growing and booming economy in whole world .This is like a perfect recipe and ripe condition for usa and neo-liberals intervention. |
ultravigoNov 10, 2019 11:13 PM
| @silversaint There is recorded evidence pointing toward what sure sounds like a US backed coup. https://erbol.com.bo/nacional/surgen-16-audios-que-vinculan-c%C3%ADvicos-exmilitares-y-eeuu-en-planes-de-agitaci%C3%B3n https://bbackdoors.wordpress.com/2019/10/08/us-hands-against-bolivia-part-i/ |
traed said: @silversaint There is recorded evidence pointing toward what sure sounds like a US backed coup. https://erbol.com.bo/nacional/surgen-16-audios-que-vinculan-c%C3%ADvicos-exmilitares-y-eeuu-en-planes-de-agitaci%C3%B3n https://bbackdoors.wordpress.com/2019/10/08/us-hands-against-bolivia-part-i/ an there is undeniable evidence that the guy rigged the election which is something that leftists seem to completely ignore or they just dont want to talk about is the right wing involve in putting Camacho in power? maybe Did Evo decided to ignore the result of the Referendum which said NO to his 4th term? Yes, no doubts in there an those damn gringo capitalists pigs had nothing to do with that Did Evo rigged the election after it was clear that he wasnt winning on round 1? well he basicly decided to stop providing info on the vote count an after a few hours he was self proclaimed president so yeah ill leave that to your imagination |
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| I can't see the news here, a country being pushed by a stronger one, it has always worked like that and always will. Poor Morales couldn't even get the support from its own military. I knew something was coming it always happen something when a U.S navy ship is set to sail on the region. Also that's probably revange from a major plot involving the Chile protests which are clearly backed by Venezuela and Bolivia. --You reap what you sow |
''Enemies' gifts are no gifts and do no good.'' |
silversaint said: traed said: @silversaint There is recorded evidence pointing toward what sure sounds like a US backed coup. https://erbol.com.bo/nacional/surgen-16-audios-que-vinculan-c%C3%ADvicos-exmilitares-y-eeuu-en-planes-de-agitaci%C3%B3n https://bbackdoors.wordpress.com/2019/10/08/us-hands-against-bolivia-part-i/ an there is undeniable evidence that the guy rigged the election which is something that leftists seem to completely ignore or they just dont want to talk about is the right wing involve in putting Camacho in power? maybe Did Evo decided to ignore the result of the Referendum which said NO to his 4th term? Yes, no doubts in there an those damn gringo capitalists pigs had nothing to do with that Did Evo rigged the election after it was clear that he wasnt winning on round 1? well he basicly decided to stop providing info on the vote count an after a few hours he was self proclaimed president so yeah ill leave that to your imagination I question those claims after reading this. I checked if the source is reliable or not and it's ranked as a reliable source. http://cepr.net/press-center/press-releases/no-evidence-that-bolivian-election-results-were-affected-by-irregularities-or-fraud-statistical-analysis-shows But it was only a narrow loss on the referendum and he got a court to overturn it. So everything was done through legal channels. Unless you're going to claim he has full control over the courts in which case I need a reason to believe that . https://apnews.com/4fcd6a5f055b44299178d6573734eea0 Where were you even getting your 2 million protestor figure from? All least biased and most accurate sources I see say "thousands". https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bolivia-election/shadow-hangs-over-bolivian-elections-as-morales-scores-first-round-win-idUSKBN1X31M4 |
silversaint said: traed said: @silversaint There is recorded evidence pointing toward what sure sounds like a US backed coup. https://erbol.com.bo/nacional/surgen-16-audios-que-vinculan-c%C3%ADvicos-exmilitares-y-eeuu-en-planes-de-agitaci%C3%B3n https://bbackdoors.wordpress.com/2019/10/08/us-hands-against-bolivia-part-i/ an there is undeniable evidence that the guy rigged the election which is something that leftists seem to completely ignore or they just dont want to talk about is the right wing involve in putting Camacho in power? maybe Did Evo decided to ignore the result of the Referendum which said NO to his 4th term? Yes, no doubts in there an those damn gringo capitalists pigs had nothing to do with that Did Evo rigged the election after it was clear that he wasnt winning on round 1? well he basicly decided to stop providing info on the vote count an after a few hours he was self proclaimed president so yeah ill leave that to your imagination I think you seem to seriously misunderstand anything going on in Bolivia. Just say you don't know anything, and move on? If you want the real explanation, then here: First of all, Evo Morales is the first indigenous president in majority indigenous Bolivia. He is very popular and rapidly progressed the economy. This will come into play later. As we all know, Morales was restricted by term limits, so he sought a referendum. A referendum is just a vote, which is legal. However, it was narrowly defeated. The Supreme Court would go on to rule that term limits were unconstitutional, so he is allowed to run again legally. Here's the part a lot of you don't understand: there are actually two vote counts. To win in the first round of the election, a candidate needs to get at least 50% of the vote (or 40% while winning by 10 percentage points over the next highest candidate). Now, the first vote count is called the TREP (quick count), which is what a lot of people are confused about. And the second vote count is called the official count (the real one). All the quick count does is provide confidence and give the media something to report on. As the results were coming in, Carlos Mesa (the main opponent) was already saying how he progressed to the second round based on incomplete results as the quick count was ongoing. When the quick count reached 83.85% of vote sheets counted, the electoral authority held a press conference reporting the result. The results at this point were Morales 45.71% and Mesa receiving 37.84%, a difference of 7.87%. This would indicate a second round, but remember this is only 83.85% of the results and is not the official count. At this point -- and this is where the controversy started -- the electoral authorities stopped the quick count. They gave several reasons which all seem to be true: the official count had started and they didn't want to confuse people, they had pledged to release at more than 80% and did, they were investigating how one of their contractors used a server. To my knowledge, they have always stopped quick counts at 80%. That's just how their system functions. Eventually, the electoral authority was under so much pressure, especially because the media conflated the official and quick counts, that they restarted the quick count. They were going to release a final quick count result but got pressure again to report results continuously. So at 95.63% of vote sheets counted, they reported Morales having a lead of 46.86% to Mesa's 36.72%. This is slightly over 10 percentage points, so all hell broke loose, and they were immediately accused of fraud. This still does not even include the official count. The OAS (some opposition that isn't even the majority/most popular party) claimed the "jump" in points was impossible. However, if you look at the trends, it seems very likely that Morales won. Why? Because it takes longer to count rural votes. And like I said earlier, he is very popular, especially with indigenous people, and they usually live in rural areas. So by counting the last of the votes, it's pretty obvious he did end up winning. If you had been watching the polls before the election, 5 out of 6 polls even predicted a Morales win. And yet some people claim fraud? I have to laugh. Unfortunately, the damage is done because the media "misunderstood" (actually they know what they are doing lol) the difference between the two counts, and the opposition started terrorizing Morales supporters (who by the way are a majority in the country) in the streets. Morales agreed to abide by an OAS audit of the results, but curiously Mesa did not. |
ZelevNov 11, 2019 3:17 PM
Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
not gonna lie the painting that was stolen from Evos house was hillarous so the last supper with Evo, Chavez, Che, Bolivar (they still worship this dude?) an i think Humala? dont know the other guys the guy is famous for having a huge ego but seriously WTF? |
silversaintNov 11, 2019 7:47 PM
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silversaint said: not gonna lie the painting that was stolen from Evos house was hillarous so the last supper with Evo, Chavez, Che, Bolivar (they still worship this dude?) an i think Humala? dont know the other guys the guy is famous for having a huge ego but seriously WTF? They are anti-imperialists. Do you even know who Bolivar is and what he did for independence? I guess it's obvious you side with colonizers :) |
Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
Zelev said: silversaint said: not gonna lie the painting that was stolen from Evos house was hillarous so the last supper with Evo, Chavez, Che, Bolivar (they still worship this dude?) an i think Humala? dont know the other guys the guy is famous for having a huge ego but seriously WTF? They are anti-imperialists. Do you even know who Bolivar is and what he did for independence? I guess it's obvious you side with colonizers :) "monstrous" those are the words that Bolivar used to describe dictatorship as you probably know, yet on 1826 he was responsable for the creation of a constitution that made him president for life an with the right to declare an heir to the throne, i mean presidency upon death... so yeah this guy didnt want to let go of power (sounds familiar?) he persecuted political oponents (because of course he did) an reinstaurated the indigenous tribute, money that people has to pay "for being indigenous" (intriguing seeing as Bolivar is a figure used by populists who claim to fight for the rights of indigenous people)... then comes the shitfest of the war with Grand Colombia which ended in the fracture of South America an the whole debacle that came with it an brought his downfall (it has to be an irony that Venezuela an Bolivia had an important part on this dictators fall)... finally with no colonizers an no CIA to blame for this, he did the sensible thing, he blamed everyone else thats the figure that these so called "anti imperialists" worship as for the whole siding with the colonizers thing, wtf dude? the spanish got their asses kicked out of South America an they deserved it, both in 1824 an 1866 an that was a good thing an sure Bolivar had an important role to play the first time but he basicly intended to replace the the autocratic rule of the spanish with another autocratic ruler, himself |
silversaintNov 12, 2019 4:24 PM
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| Ah shit, here we go again. It's time for super ultra freedom usa to save these people from decency. I'm sure the coming bloodshed will all be worth it in the name of neoliberalism. |
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silversaint said: Zelev said: They are anti-imperialists. Do you even know who Bolivar is and what he did for independence? I guess it's obvious you side with colonizers :) "monstrous" those are the words that Bolivar used to describe dictatorship as you probably know, yet on 1826 he was responsable for the creation of a constitution that made him president for life an with the right to declare an heir to the throne, i mean presidency upon death... so yeah this guy didnt want to let go of power (sounds familiar?) he persecuted political oponents (because of course he did) an reinstaurated the indigenous tribute, money that people has to pay "for being indigenous" (intriguing seeing as Bolivar is a figure used by populists who claim to fight for the rights of indigenous people)... then comes the shitfest of the war with Grand Colombia which ended in the fracture of South America an the whole debacle that came with it an brought his downfall (it has to be an irony that Venezuela an Bolivia had an important part on this dictators fall)... finally with no colonizers an no CIA to blame for this, he did the sensible thing, he blamed everyone else thats the figure that these so called "anti imperialists" worship as for the whole siding with the colonizers thing, wtf dude? the spanish got their asses kicked out of South America an they deserved it, both in 1824 an 1866 an that was a good thing an sure Bolivar had an important role to play the first time but he basicly intended to replace the the autocratic rule of the spanish with another autocratic ruler, himself You say this as you literally are anti-Molares. Modern-day colonizer. |
Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
Zelev said: silversaint said: "monstrous" those are the words that Bolivar used to describe dictatorship as you probably know, yet on 1826 he was responsable for the creation of a constitution that made him president for life an with the right to declare an heir to the throne, i mean presidency upon death... so yeah this guy didnt want to let go of power (sounds familiar?) he persecuted political oponents (because of course he did) an reinstaurated the indigenous tribute, money that people has to pay "for being indigenous" (intriguing seeing as Bolivar is a figure used by populists who claim to fight for the rights of indigenous people)... then comes the shitfest of the war with Grand Colombia which ended in the fracture of South America an the whole debacle that came with it an brought his downfall (it has to be an irony that Venezuela an Bolivia had an important part on this dictators fall)... finally with no colonizers an no CIA to blame for this, he did the sensible thing, he blamed everyone else thats the figure that these so called "anti imperialists" worship as for the whole siding with the colonizers thing, wtf dude? the spanish got their asses kicked out of South America an they deserved it, both in 1824 an 1866 an that was a good thing an sure Bolivar had an important role to play the first time but he basicly intended to replace the the autocratic rule of the spanish with another autocratic ruler, himself You say this as you literally are anti-Molares. Modern-day colonizer. speaking facts about Bolivar makes me a "Modern-day colonizer"? ok |
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What facts? You speak half-truths. All clues point to the fact that you would be a colonizer back in the day. You're even a colonizer enabler now. |
Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
Zelev said: What facts? You speak half-truths. All clues point to the fact that you would be a colonizer back in the day. You're even a colonizer enabler now. half truth? enlight me, i like histry which means learning about both the good stuff an the bad stuff peruvian constitution of 1826 - Bolivar president for life (lie?) reinstitution of indigeneous tribute - i wonder how you gonna defend that, you just cant defend that but you can do what Bolivar worshippers do an not talk about that War Peru vs Grand Colombia (seriously what half truth? if you were south american then you know what shitfest that was an the consequences it brought even many years after the dictators death) i seriously wonder if you know anything about Bolivar now, ill give you some help, Bolivar was offered dictatorship by peruvian congress to fight the spanish an he did gave those powers back after the war... so thats a good thing an he did abolish the mita (i dont think i need to explain what that was) which is also a good thing so half truth in there as well? but it all went to shit when he decided he was gonna rule instead of the spanish crown an not give freedom back to the countries that had been invaded? he wasnt that much different from the imperialist colonizers |
silversaintNov 12, 2019 9:18 PM
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| @silversaint half truth? enlight me, i like histry which means learning about both the good stuff an the bad stuff peruvian constitution of 1826 - Bolivar president for life (lie?) Not a lie, but it lacks context and obviously skews the argument a certain way. The viewpoint at the time for this decision was due to fear that slavery would be reverted back into practice. Admittedly, he didn't choose the best choice for government, but he chose the one that was most likely to work under those conditions. reinstitution of indigeneous tribute - i wonder how you gonna defend that, you just cant defend that but you can do what Bolivar worshippers do an not talk about that Not too knowledgeable on this, but I assume you're talking about partial reinstitution. This was because complete abolishment was not always in favor of the indigenous due to debt and other factors. The creoles had considerable power in governance as well as land. They were their own separate faction. There were many instances of Bolivar expressing his support for indigenous (although not in practice for obvious reasons already listed). If you could provide credible sources, then sure I'd like to know more about it. War Peru vs Grand Colombia (seriously what half truth? if you were south american then you know what shitfest that was an the consequences it brought even many years after the dictators death) For full context, there was a fear that the Spanish would invade once again. So a push for a united territory was what Bolivar was arguing. In hindsight, was kind of dumb. Bolivar was offered dictatorship by peruvian congress to fight the spanish an he did gave those powers back after the war... so thats a good thing an he did abolish the mita (i dont think i need to explain what that was) which is also a good thing so half truth in there as well? At least you're honest. but it all went to shit when he decided he was gonna rule instead of the spanish crown an not give freedom back to the countries that had been invaded? he wasnt that much different from the imperialist colonizers I already explained the ruler thing earlier. Furthermore, he did actually try to improve conditions for everyone. But as stated earlier, there was a wealthy, ruling class that did not align with that. He failed in uniting different factions. Overall, I think you misunderstand why he still holds importance to people nowadays. It's pretty obvious his model would not work in today's times. The purpose is that he was one of the first people to completely change the course of history for South America. People have taken his "model" and further expanded it into a more suitable system. His vision for unity and liberation in the anti-imperialist struggle is what stays with people. And if there are people that excuse his faults, then that sounds like their own problem they should work on. But also, as I implied in an earlier post, flat out "cancelling" Simon Bolivar doesn't really do much. There are good things to be learned and taken from his controversial history. |
Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
| The evidence for election corruption seems scant especially since Evo was on track to win regardless. Sounds like bipartisan opportunism to me. Further there was already an offer of a democratic solution, letting independent bodies come in for a redo. To whatever extent there was a mass negative disapproval over this, people should have let their disapproval reflect in a vote. Overall this is just a subversion of democracy. The only legitimate complaint to my estimation is him not running again just as a matter of principle. I can understand that complaint. But choosing now to be the time you complain is, again, just opportunism, because timing him stepping down now obviously benefits one side of the aisle. |
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