HopefulNihilist said: What edgy essentially means to me is what MandarBloodeagle said right before me. If something tries to appear mature, and fails. But yes, a large part of that is this disconnect.Then, to my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, "edgy" to you, is when there's a huge disconnect between the dark elements and light-heartedness? How do you feel about Higurashi then? As for Higurashi, I haven't seen it, I've only read one of the manga. I don't know if it's works better as an anime, but I wasn't impressed by this one. |
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| Shield Hero is honesty growing on me a little bit. That doesn’t change the fact that the isekai setting in anime is seriously overplayed and generic. I think people are calling it edgy because the protagonist has this angsty personality and it caters to edgy people in real life. That’s just my guess. I don’t think it’s very edgy. |
| Because every dark everything is labeled edgy. Why? Because labeling things and immediately setting them aside is easier than evaluating them fairly on their merits and most people are lazy fucks. Especially when it comes to thinking about things. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
| I don't remember people saying Rezero being edgy. Rezero is something about torture test with lots of repetition to the point people hated Subaru because of it until he make up the problems. He never been edgy rather cringe at some scenes. Shield bro rather than being edgy it was more into the false rape accusations controversy. Berserk aren't even Isekai. This isn't even a fair comparison. It would be different if the topic was like about the previous season Goblin Slayer and Berserk. You're lost. |
| Because critique for anime is about as bad as this site. |
HopefulNihilist said: I understand your point of view. But I find it oddly suspicious how literally every dark isekai anime I see that comes out, is always called "edgy". Which makes me question if ALL the dark isekai anime are "edgy" or if people are just trying desperately to label them as such. Then again, Grimgar is a dark isekai, and I haven't seen anybody call it edgy. Of course, as it happens with all buzzwords, the word got overused to the point where its original meaning doesn't even matter anymore. That's why I don't use it and everyone who wants to have a meaningful discussion shouldn't either if they're not intending to complement it with the required explanation. |
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| In short: because is edgy to call everything edgy. |
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| eh.. most things that are called "edgy" I enjoy. But yeah word "edgy" has been always weird. And probably in most cases not even correctly used. And for the most part it's subjective... So basically, either ignore it or just consume it as genre with your own viewpoint. |
DesolatePsycheJan 25, 2019 9:51 AM
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| Well. If am being honest they kinda are, the whole statement that "people who call it edgy are edgy themselves". Is kind of ludicrous but at the same time not far from the truth. However there are some valid criticisms out there. However my opinion is no criticism, but rather personal biases. Isekai is very mystical, outlandish, and escapist in nature. (Empahsis on escapism). And usually plays out as fanfiction in structure: 1.Mary sue or Gary stue protagonists. 2. High fantasy, dream world setting. 3. Usually gets a harem or becomes a hero of some sort. The dream of every who lives an average life (this is no jab towards weebs but we usually fall on this category) that's why protagonist usually reflect these qualities. We imprint ourselves into them, and feel a sense of satisfaction when someone, who was so painfully mediocre, succeeds with almost no effort. It targets the psychological part of humans that trigger sympathy for the underdog. That's why I think isekai has so much appeal. But where we start seeing a problem is in dark settings. Where the everyday protagonist or wimpy protagonist gets shit on and shit on and shit on. Over and over. And he becomes gruff and desensitized to social interaction and trust. While this is not a problem. The hate lies on the usage of its protagonist. Series like berserk work not because of the ART (tho Miura is god with paper and ink) but because it took it's time developing its character. The protagonist goes through hardship from infancy and its shown every moment of his life, from misery to happiness to even greater misery. Because humans are not defined by one single event on their lifes. But a myriad of reasons. That's what ultimately impairs modern isekai. They focus so much or jump the gun so fast that they're in a rush to make the characters a badass, that they skimp over the factors which change them as people. Ir if they do, is just one reason than happens overnight. And While not improbable, it is a highly questionable way the rate in which they change. Even tokyo ghoul in the manga, took it's time before the protagonist, kaneki changed. If SUI ishida was writing an isekai. He would had kaneki's hair turn white and be a badass. From the first chapter. But instead he took his time. Kaneki struggled for a long time, before finally snapping, enduring countless of days of torture before finally snapping. That's how you develop. I would argue that naofumi to an extend goes to a similar process, but it's rather more of his abilities and bartering than his motivations. Tho it is a justified one. But regardless he still hold the underdog quality about him through the first half. Which helps it. However the series loses focus but I wont get into those opinions here. Inversely Re;zero has a mediocre protagonist in terms of power but he is far more relatable. Which contrast well against how almost everyone is a superhuman in the show. However like in most dark isekai, they take things too far by introducing highly unbelievable monsters and ganks. Once again I'd compare it to berserk, and in ths time lord of the rings. They both feel grounded and are darker on the spectrum of fantasy. Anyone can die at any time. Even the protagonist. But if you have equally strong good guys and bad guys. The story can become surreal. They are trying to take itself too seriously when their characters arent believable, not necessarily in terms of abilities (who cares if they can blow a planet) but rather in their character development. That's why in my opinion isekai is a genre that lends itself to escapist, action, comedy. Something that you can just turn your brain off and laugh to and not take seriously.Instead of darker subgenres. Not saying that cant work. But if all your series got is "your protagonist can blow shit up like a badass because he got double crossed for no believable or justified reason" then yeah. It is edgy, because all your story is concerned with is shock factor. And not character motivation. Why they do what they do. What drove them to commit such injustice to someone so undeserving. And it CANNOT be because they are evil or because they hate the MC. Why do they? And Remember, all humans are not truly evil or good. Theres no such thing black and white morality. If your series is trying to take itself, its character, or its world seriously. Then you must go balls deep. And not just ball sack touch the top of lukewarm water. |
| Fanboys and Fangirls need to take a chill pill |
| A few people in here have already given my opinion (specifically Maurice_5, jal90 on the first page), but I still wish to add my voice to the mix. Edgy is unnecessarily trying to be dark. Advice for a mistakenly edgy story writer, they should either write the dark moments with more consequence, or just remove them entirely. Now, this isn't to say I can't enjoy an edgy story, but it's just not done well. I can not wholeheartedly tell you an edgy story is good for it's edgy components. I mean, a story without consequences for heavy stuff happening isn't understanding cause, and effect, a fundamental of story telling. Everything should mean something in a story, and when you remove meaning, you are losing a part of my brain thinking that everything will effect the story. You might as well forget a main plot thread in my mind. Anyway, I'll end off with my final thoughts. I see edginess as a consequence of the writer's inability to write a dark story. An edgy story shows a writer that could, possibly make a good, dark story, but failed by leaving out a piece of the story that is required to keep my interest. The effect of the main character's crazed killings, or necrophilic, and cannibalistic orgies. (Okay, maybe not that extreme, but you get what I'm laying down, right?) |
hypergoobOct 23, 2019 9:42 AM
| "EDGY" Is just a word people use to make their subjective dislike sound like an objective fact. |
LunaEstlinOct 23, 2019 6:40 PM
 It’s okay to look back at the past, just don’t stare too long |
RealTheAbsurdist said: Esquirtit said: In both of those random lonely otaku teenagers transport into a new world where they are put in situations of life and death isnt that pretty much the definiton of edgy So then an anime like Berserk is edgy because it's way more violent and has rape? No, I don't think edgy just means anything dark or violent. Tone, execution, and substance comes into play. Stuff like Re:Zero, Shield Hero, Goblin Slayer, Arifureta, Akame ga Kill, or Mirai Nikki are considered edgy because they're immature and poorly executed in both presentation and composition. Berserk is unapologetically raw violence, has genuine, well-written characters coupled with a compelling storyline. Berserk touches many serious themes and it does it well. There's meaning to the violence and hopelessness. It has boundless substance in many areas that the previous mentioned series do not. That's the difference. |
PyroOct 23, 2019 7:10 PM
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| All I know is "edgy" is one of those terms I never take seriously when I see someone use it. It gets tossed around so much I feel like it's lost all meaning. |
RealTheAbsurdist said: Pyro said: No, I don't think edgy just means anything dark or violent. Tone, execution, and substance comes into play. Stuff like Re:Zero, Shield Hero, Goblin Slayer, Arifureta, Akame ga Kill, or Mirai Nikki are considered edgy because they're immature and poorly executed in both presentation and composition. Berserk is unapologetically raw violence, has genuine, well-written characters coupled with a compelling storyline. Berserk touches many serious themes and it does it well. There's meaning to the violence and hopelessness. It has boundless substance in many areas that the previous mentioned series do not. That's the difference. I know my expectations are maybe too high, but this is exactly my problem when I see people on MAL critique something as being, "edgy": first off, it doesn't have a concrete meaning. Second, individuals with similar views as you claim something is "edgy" because it's "immature" yet...what constitutes an anime as being "immature"? How do the anime you listed fit the criteria of "immature"? When I was in high school, I took a more advanced writing class, where we conducted analysis's of writers' essays, and we couldn't just write, "Well, this writer is saying X" and that's it. I feel like no matter how many paragraphs people write on MAL, it's mostly rambling without much substance. I am aware it doesn't have a concrete meaning. That's why I said "I think" as in to me. I feel like I've said most of the reasons that would determine an anime as immature in my eyes. I'm not sure why you zeroed in on just that like it's the only thing I said. I mean, comparing Berserk to the series I listed is literally night and day. I don't know what else to say. |
PyroOct 23, 2019 8:40 PM
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| Well, it is divided into 2 opinions or something ... - Wow how much gore and rapes !, this is too edgy! too! the darkness invades my eyes .. so much maturity makes me nauseous - I think I'm going to...*barf*. 10/10 anime - Forced *spit*, trash without ideas. 1/10 anime |
| If it's dark and good then it isn't edgy. If it's dark and bad then it's edgy. Unless it's Hellsing. Hellsing is edgy and good. I don't take these kinds of buzzwords seriously. Just have fun with it. |
| Do you change your username on every new moon? |
| I think "edgy" is latent when there's utmost attempt to be dark (which of course, fails). The core disparity is that whilst "dark" has thematic depth in its themes, "edgy" usually takes 'dark element' for granted, and exists for solely the purpose of what might make it looks mature and grisly. It's quite subjective actually, and often depends on the individual's conception and perception. Often "edgy" follows quite the same as what "dark" does, but the result is completely different. You don't feel the terror in edginess, you don't get immersed in the thematic elements of what it presents and instead just gets uncomfortable, and you feel everything that exists edgily is shallow and dull, without much purpose to it. Another fundamental idea of this topic is the writing and execution. Have you ever asked yourself the question "why does Re:Zero has to include gore in it?" and "Why does Berserk has to include gore in it?". To explain would be absurdly long. But long story short, these are the exemplary examples of how writing and execution determine whether a series is dark or edgy. I can immediately tell that the brutality in Berserk in the last few chapters of Golden Age arc is more than meaningful, for it displays the terror, horror and heedlessness of one losing himself who then rampages everything, more depressingly his victims are once thought to be in his fraternity. Such character shows us that he never cares for anyone, and when he does but loses it, the only one left is himself. Gore is the execution that represents such themes to the most extreme degree, for he recklessly commits a genocide amongst the peoples that once have absolute faith in him. This sounds perfectly reasonably pretentious and not genuine, but the terror is there to be seen. We were horrified, abhorred, and depressed. Now, how about Re:Zero? It sure is uncomfortable to see the man suffers, but does it exist solely for the purpose of making the audience uncomfortable? Well, it thinks that with gore, it might look more mature. Yet the writing presents nothing other than simple torture before our eyes, without any contrivance or thoughts put into it. Gore in this case is just shallow and edgy. Edit 1: Now I want to make things clear. "Edgy" is sort of negative as to the perspective of nowadays' standard, but that does not make "dark" always is a good thing. But before that, let's demonstrate a bit more about "dark". There are a lot of anime/manga that do not try at all to be dark, but the themes it presents already make it a dark one (like Humanity has Declined). In the movie "Joker" (2019), if you have watched it, it's a different case since its intention was clearly to be dark. But my point is, "dark" does not correlate with conspicuous elements, such as violence or nihilistic monologues, but rather the themes and ideas that are dealt. In "Joker", it's about the problems of society, what role we play as a contributor to a mad man, etc. It indeed is a dark movie, not an edgy one by all means, to be fair. But it wasn't necessarily a good movie. The writing has its purpose that is worth to discuss, and the gore might be purposeful as well. But that does not mean other aspects of writing and execution are good, particularly those that contribute to the dark tone. Judging whether the way the theme is brought up, the plausibility, context and conceptualization is what truly vital for taking into consideration. "Dark" doesn't automatically mean "good". Edit 2: grammatical errors |
PreacheeOct 25, 2019 3:28 AM
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| Dark vibes/bad feelings/sad/things that aren't good = Edge. |
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Iyya said: Because their atmosphere often contradict with their themes that makes them feel unnatural. They are like only trying to be cool than they actually are by its darkness. Have you wondered why many isekai are considered edgy while Berserk are something that gotten praised for its Darkness more than being called edgy? -How is Blood and Guts, Sadness, Death, topics that are usually uncomfortable to talk about and etc "Trying to Be cool" ? -It seems like you don't know what edgy is. Berserk is also edgy. Its still a great anime. There's nothing wrong with setting a dark tone. -"Because their atmosphere often contradict" -Literally what you're saying is contradicting itself. |
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RealTheAbsurdist said: @KreatorX You're a big fan of Re: Zero, to my understanding. How do you feel about @Preachee calling it "edgy"? Do you agree? Disagree? I'm also curious on your thoughts on the topic of the thread. No, I do not agree with it being called edgy, if edgy stands for 'trying to be dark without any meaning or purpose to it'. It was quite obvious that the show was attempting to solidify the theme that Subaru's 'isekai' experience is not going to be anything that he (even us) imagined, i.e., the generic escapist fantasy. Things are bound to be messed up for him. The world will remain seeming all hunky dory in his eyes (as much as he wishes it to be, with pretty girls, men, landscapes and whatnot) but it is all a facade and he has to live with this dichotomy. It's as if the author is calling out Subaru with "You want your isekai fantasy so badly? Do you want to escape your real life where you waste time doing nothing constructive, perpetually bored, and that you want to be a hero and be acknowledged? Here, enjoy this". It follows that we have a teenager with low social skills (through a NEET/twixter lifestyle) who is drunk with the idea of actually getting a chance to live his out his 'dream', only to be in for a surprise. If possible, I would rather extend this a spitting satire on what people (like or similar to Subaru) think of and expect from an isekai. Not to mention there is far more to Re-zero than just Subaru alone. As you said, it is part to do with his total helplessness in the entire situation since everyone is a physical monster in comparison to him. The other part is to do with why his connection to the witch is hated so much. People like Betelguese have a history with the witch, wherein they had been spurned in one way or another, driving them mad with envy. People like Rem and Ram distrust the connection with the witch given their past, to the point they will turn against any friends with uncontrollable wrath. The story makes and will continue to make references to the cardinal sins when it comes to cause and effect, in an attempt to explain what pushed a person to behave in a particular manner and I am just lightly dressing it here. Note, Subaru hasn't committed any acts of gore yet, he has only been at the receiving end of it. Why is he at the receiving end? Half of the answer lies above and the remaining in the rest of the story and the cast of characters the author is busy writing. Shallow, immature, purpose-less and edgy are far from how I see it, since the gore is half responsible for the theme it is currently running with : "Your new life in an isekai isn't going to be any better if you haven't fixed your unhealthy attitude, a.k.a. second/third/fourth chances and so on to set things straight, may prove to be even more disastrous because of the same reason". It is a simple theme that is executed well in this isekai type fantasy genre. Is this regarded as an immature theme to tackle for adult audiences? I don't know. The author lets the viewer or reader decide. As a example that is shallow on purpose, I would have certainly called Re-zero 'edgy' if Subaru landed in prison from the start, gained new Super-saiyan like powers, freed a bunch of girls, got himself a battle-harem, jumped to the front-lines of whatever political turmoil he steps into, massacring and decapitating the 'enemies' in mere moments on the battlefield because they are the 'oppressive' guys who had sexually assaulted the girls in prison... all vanquished thanks to his newfound special isekai powers. He is just 'going with the flow, carpe diem' when asked about it, since he is too cool for a long and honest answer, earning him the free/lustful admiration of his followers. In such a scenario, I would ask, "what is the underlying theme or meaning here?". |
KreatorXOct 25, 2019 4:40 AM
 Truly a Divine Comedy  |
| @RealTheAbsurdist after being brutally killed several times, how can this character possibly perceive the new world as something fun? I don't think it makes sense. This is something that is a rather open ended scenario and left to the audience to decide. Nobody dies and lives to tell the tale. Only interpretations exist of what a person can behave after having gone through such a hypothetical experience. Since the author has his own interpretation (which is kind of similar to mine) of this resurrection concept within the story, Subaru's life and death shall be handled in a video game like manner and he will experience joy when he executes things perfectly without any goof-ups, I have decided to stick with his interpretation.To explain my previous paragraph, although this is tangential but follows the same pattern of thought given that it is a purely hypothetical scenario, I could throw a rhetorical question : How can an immortal person perceive the world as something fun? . There are hordes of stories that exist, with interpretations that are concerned with how things have become boring, dreary and wasteful for said immortals who long for a 'good death', when in fact, nobody has ever lived to call themselves an immortal person. Speaking for myself, I certainly don't think the world would become boring as there is so much stuff to explore in this vast universe. Again, a rather open ended scenario and tangential viewpoint, but it is food for thought. level of that gore (leg being chopped off) seems to exist solely as shock factor. I thought that served to signify how much of a savage the maid sisters are when they give in to their deep-seated anger. Some random person/passerby didn't do it, somebody that we get to know in a better fashion actually does it. If someone random asshole did it, then yeah, even I would say that it was solely done as a shock factor. Not just limited to that, there was another even worse encounter with Subaru being mauled and plastered on the floor by a certain someone in the mansion. But nonetheless, yeah I see what you mean by 'embracing the dark side', although I would not necessarily attribute that to the fact that the pretty art-style when contrasted with the gory scenes, is present to continuously fool the audience. That dichotomy is on purpose. Besides from the thematic element, it is certainly designed in an attempt to go with the moments Subaru thinks everything is under his control since he feels he can try as many times he wants (evident by how he repeatedly fell into this vicious cycle of thinking he is doing everyone a favour by doing what he felt was right) as well as those moments when Subaru actually solves the present issue at hand by fixing his attitude/approach. I would perhaps argue that if the show's colour palette gradually/consistently became more bleaker or greyed as the show pressed on further (to be in 'sync' the dark turn of events), it would not match with the well deserved high/happy moments where Subaru feels content with things around him or when he managed to nail it down properly, stuff that would be otherwise impossible if he kept thinking the world owed him a lot of things without him having to explain anyone anything. |
KreatorXOct 25, 2019 12:51 PM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
| @RealTheAbsurdist I'm pretty sure most people would say a show that "embraces its dark side" is edgy. Saying you want dark shows to make you genuinely feel uncomfortable and that Re:Zero doesn't make you uncomfortable gives me the initial impression that you're edgy and Re:Zero is less edgy. Sure "edgy" is usually thrown around in an insulting tone, but those people tend to be insulting the overserious dark nature of the show, not that it wasn't dark or mature enough. Then again, I must be hanging around completely different circles than you. I always thought Berserk was well known as an edgy story and people liked it for that. I never knew Re:Zero was considered edgy because neither the complaints nor praises of the show I've seen focus on the relatively tame gore. One of my favorite manga was "Umareru Kachi no Nakatta Jibun ga Anna no Tame ni Dekiru Ikutsuka no Koto" and I would never question someone who complained it was too edgy, though I would question them if they called it shallow. |
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| Edgy can be resume in one phrase: "Everything that was considered cool back in the 90´s and 00´s" Also edgy is the new term that replaced "Tryhard". Everything that tries too hard to fit a dark theme (like gore, rape, blood or things like that) within a series that does not need it, or only does it to caught attention, is edgy. Is very simple to know what is edgy just by looking at a harem or based shonen. If the dark theme does not seem necessary or even logical, it is edgy. Examples of justified edge (hence not tryhard): Berserk (a literal dark fantasy), Hunter x Hunter, Shingeki no Kyojin, Psycho Pass (the first season), Fate Stay Night and so on. Bad edge (hence Edgy): Madoka, Re Zero, SAO, Goblin Slayer and so on. By the way, regarding Guts, he is THE edgelord. Guts is literally the foundation of every single edgelord on the modern era, but the difference is that Guts is a constructed and well thought character, instead of just an emo without reasons or just bad because he feels like it. |
| @RealTheAbsurdist The second definition on Urban Dictionary looks the closest to how I've seen it used. "Used to describe something that is excessively dark, often to a point where it's overbearingly depressive nature could be considered humorous." The focus is on things that are excessively dark, depressing, and mature. Again, while people may use it to insult shows they think are superficial and poor quality, when people use this term it's specifically to point out and mock the super serious super dark nature of a show. Edgy isn't "it tries to be dark but fails", edgy is "it tries to be so dark so hard and that by itself is a fail". At least, that's how I've always understood it and seen it in use. This is why I'd say if you don't like Re:Zero because it isn't a dark bland repetition of inescapable hell in the spirit of Dark Souls then you're the edgy one, not Re:Zero. RealTheAbsurdist said: I don't understand the purpose of the light heartedness in this show. The main character in Re:Zero is an otaku who is clingy, delusional, and tries to avoid/escape from reality whenever he can. The contrast between the light part of the show when he's all optimistic and the dark part of the show in which he's genuinely powerless and pathetic is just a projection of his own personality. Love it or hate it, it's not pointless. Also I don't think it's obvious that it's supposed to be anti-wish fulfillment or ultimately dark. He still has his outlandish cheat power to reset on death. That optimistic tenacity Subaru displays wins over the dark brooding, and is consistently described as his one good point. He continues to overcome trials and seems to be developing towards someone who's more realistically optimistic instead of someone who's delusional and optimistic. |
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RealTheAbsurdist said: I didn't follow your reply, perhaps you misquoted me? Or maybe bad grammar from my side? I meant to imply that I wouldn't attribute the prettiness of the artsyle to something as a means of continuously fooling the audience. Mothers included.KreatorX said: is present to continuously fool the audience. It doesn't fool us, though. By the 1st ep of Re: Zero, pretty much everyone and their mom understood: this anime is dark. The light-hearted artstyle can't fool anyone. RealTheAbsurdist said: KreatorX said: Besides from the thematic element, I don't understand the thematic element. I stated it in my previous post that you replied to : Shallow, immature, purpose-less and edgy are far from how I see it, since the gore is half responsible for the theme it is currently running with : "Your new life in an isekai isn't going to be any better if you haven't fixed your unhealthy attitude, a.k.a. second/third/fourth chances and so on to set things straight, may prove to be even more disastrous because of the same reason". It is a simple theme that is executed well in this isekai type fantasy genre. Is this regarded as an immature theme to tackle for adult audiences? I don't know. The author lets the viewer or reader decide. RealTheAbsurdist said: KreatorX said: it is certainly designed in an attempt to go with the moments Subaru thinks everything is under his control since he feels he can try as many times he wants (evident by how he repeatedly fell into this vicious cycle of thinking he is doing everyone a favour by doing what he felt was right) as well as those moments when Subaru actually solves the present issue at hand by fixing his attitude/approach. I understand your viewpoint. But I think the approach of the art style Re: Zero should've taken, is something more in between light hearted and dark. I don't understand the purpose of the light heartedness in this show. Like, it contrasts so badly with the dark scenes, along with the fact that this show is clearly geared towards people who want waifus, but at the same time is supposed to be an anti-wish fulfillment story? I just don't get it: if an anime is going to be dark, then I want it to fully embrace that darkness. I don't understand what Re: Zero was trying to be: was it trying to be a wish fulfillment isekai with light hearted moments? Or was it trying to be an anti-wish fulfillment isekai that's dark? Honestly, I think this show should've just been straight-up Dark Souls: fucked up world, weak MC, no waifus no laifu. When you say clearly geared towards people who want waifus, I certainly don't see it that way but I won't deny the marketing potential behind it. The author has his own message (mentioned above) but he also wants everyone to enjoy his story in their own way. Not going to mince words here but I'd say that I would clearly notice more elements in the series than someone who is in it just for the pretty looking waifus and 'who-Subaru-gets-to-bang' shitfest that is stuck with the show. Re:zero was trying to be an example of anti-wish fulfillment. You get to live a fun looking, vibrant isekai world. You have all the pretty waifus and shit but the world is actually far from it. However, I would not wish to be in Subaru's shoes, because even with me being more mentally and socially competent than what Subaru is, I would get absolutely frustrated being unable to explain my situation to anyone when there's a sentient killswitch :- A) who can kill you (the sender of the message), B) who can kill the the recipient of the message, C) with whom you cannot communicate easily. Wishing to end my life wouldn't help either. Not my favourite catch 22. Even the prettiest waifus being momentary elements of respite aren't worth my time if I can't get the opportunity to convey the root problem because of the said reasons. |
KreatorXOct 25, 2019 1:25 PM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
| Everything that is using excessive gore and violence, or is unnecessarily dark, to stand out is edgy. Berzerk fulfill the definition by excessive gore and violence, as well as being overbearingly dark (or grimdark if you like), the main difference between it and others shows is that Berzerk came out when this was a norm for storytelling and everything was overbearingly dark, hence Berzerk ironically enough didn't stand out. It was the norm shows tried to break from later on. On the other hand, Re: Zero, or Attack on Titan, or Tokyo Ghoul is edgy. It's main selling point is from having more excessive gore than anything made. |
| Signature removed. It was too good for this cruel world. |
RealTheAbsurdist said: No, it was some really confusing sequence of words I chose in my post that you quoted up there. I managed to confuse even myself on rereading the sentence. Nonetheless, I have clarified that in the recent post as quoted here.KreatorX said: I didn't follow your reply, perhaps you misquoted me? Or maybe bad grammar from my side? I meant to imply that I wouldn't attribute the prettiness of the artsyle to something as a means of continuously fooling the audience. Mothers included. I misquoted? That's strange. RealTheAbsurdist said: KreatorX said: When you say clearly geared towards people who want waifus, I certainly don't see it that way but I won't deny the marketing potential behind it. The author has his own message (the above them I mentioned) but he also wants everyone to enjoy his story in their own way. Not going to mince words here but I'd say that I clearly notice more elements in the show than someone who is in it just for the pretty looking waifus and 'who-Subaru-gets-to-bang' shitfest that is stuck with the show. Alright, Re: Zero isn't as wish fulfillment as something like, say, Highschool DxD, but to some degree, it's abundantly clear that this show wants to have its cake and eat it too: the protagonist is continuously surrounded by extremely cute girls, and even one of their (Rem) existence almost solely revolves around him at some point. I don't think it's a coincidence that Rem became one of the most popular female characters in anime of all time. Re: Zero is similar to Oresuki and Shield Hero, in that it initially presents itself as a twisted subversion of a genre, but ultimately, wants to have its cake and eat it too. If this series was truly hell-bent on being anti-wish fullfilment, then the protagonist would not be surrounded by cute girls all the time. One of those girls would NOT end up being seriously in love with him. With something like High school DxD and Berserk, they fully embrace their nature: Re: Zero is this odd entity that is caught in between. I've heard some people online say that an "edgy" anime is when the dark tone clashes with the light heartedness too much, and I think that Re: Zero is an example of that definition. Hm, perhaps the dividing clause for me as to why I call it 'anti-wish fulfillment', solely lies in the viewpoint that this seemingly 'abundant' wish fulfillment aspect of being merely surrounded by a bevy of pretty girls is ultimately pointless if he can't convey his resurrecting ability to anyone, since that thing is one of the pressing concerns for all things that went wrong for him. Rem falling in love with him hasn't fulfilled his wish of saving Emilia from her imminent death, nor has it enabled him to communicate with Rem that he can attempt to undo mistakes by resurrecting again and again. I would most certainly call it wish fulfillment if he is able to tell Rem everything, she doesn't get killed and even gets to help him save Emilia and all three (or more) exist in perfect polygamous unison. That just isn't what the show is about so far. Given how season 2 will start out, I wouldn't call it wish fulfillment either. However, since the story is far from complete I cannot pass concrete judgements. A conclusion as intended by the author becomes necessary for me for that since the discussion has reached a point where it requires that. I may not fathom the similarity with two examples you've mentioned as neither have I seen Oresuki nor Shield Hero since I limit myself to just 2 ongoing series (Re:Zero and Attack on Titan), coupled with my strong distaste towards harem being a running theme in any show. And that I almost exclusively avoid incomplete shows, debar these two [soon to be just one show as AoT will likely enter its final season next year with a finale]. I had however skimmed through some of the forum posts on Shieldhero while it was airing with its supposedly terrible 'controversy' and regarding the wish fulfillment aspect, he actually has girls with whom he can be completely honest with and that they coexist in perfect harmony, but I could be wrong. |
KreatorXOct 25, 2019 2:35 PM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
RealTheAbsurdist said: KreatorX said: Hm, perhaps the dividing clause for me lies in the viewpoint that this seemingly 'abundant' wish fulfillment aspect of being merely surrounded by a bevy of pretty girls is ultimately pointless if he can't convey his resurrecting ability to anyone, since that thing is one of the pressing concerns for all things that went wrong for him. Rem falling in love with him hasn't fulfilled his wish of saving Emilia from her imminent death, nor has it enabled him to communicate with Rem that he can attempt to undo mistakes by resurrecting again and again. I would most certainly call it wish fulfillment if he is able to tell Rem everything, she doesn't get killed and even gets to help him save Emilia and all three (or more) exist in perfect polygamous unison. That just isn't what the show is about so far. However, since the story is far from complete I cannot pass concrete judgements. A conclusion as intended by the author becomes necessary for me for that. True, just being surrounded by cute girls doesn't make Subaru's life exactly, well, good, but it certainly satisfies his self-indulgent otaku fantasies, to a degree, even though this anime is trying to say that it's NOT a wish fulfillment. It's debatable how much of a wish fulfillment Re: Zero is, but there's no denying that to a degree it IS wish fulfillment. That's my problem: I prefer stories to either be wish fulfillment, or not. And Re: Zero is this odd entity that's stuck between the two categories. I think this anime could've had an art style and feel more similar to Dark Souls, while still retaining light hearted moments. I mean, Berserk sure has its light hearted moments, while looking incredibly dark, so I don't agree with the idea that, "no light hearted art style = no good moments". Well, you have emphasized enough that it is a problem on your side that you prefer stuff be either 100% wish fulfillment or anti-wish fulfillment, so nothing much to be said beyond that I think. But what are we discussing about here again? Story? Theme? or Art? Anyhow, I entered this discussion from the angle of story and thematic elements, not touching art at all. I only draw contention with the claim that this pretty art style with said contrast, or the themes execution have no meaning or that they served no purpose. Whether it could be made better, wasn't what I am tackling. And to top it off with the fact that the premise of our discussion is built upon an internet buzzword that different people throw around casually with their own interpretations of the word. I come from a time when edgy meant something that is used to describe something as quite enthralling to watch, gives you the rush and keeps you hooked to the seats (which was the case for me when I binged through Re:zero after a 4 year long break from anime). The art made for easy and pleasant viewing while the other equally important aspects of the anime carried it forward. Nevertheless, the point was about the art style first and foremost as I read from the original question of the thread. I am from the camp that found this art-style rather charming to watch and that it contrasted well with the serious moments, for reasons mentioned in my above posts, as it resonated with the character's highs and lows (for me atleast, and presumably several others). It goes without saying that the light novel, manga and anime have differing artworks, with the manga being the more rougher/hardier looking of the three. However, I would say that the art style alone doesn't seem to qualify what gets treated as edgy. The story, plot, themes, characters , and even musical OST too factor into it. Skip on any of it (be it from the audience's side OR the author's/creator's side) and you will have people saying XYZ show tries to hard to be something but never achieves it (and in favour of the author here, it may have actually achieved that 'something', whatsoever it may be). Urban dictionary's definition of edgy appears to be the one currently in play, within the limits of this discussion here. Re:zero doesn't seem that way for me, it would have if it had turned out like that silly example with that prison battle harem with sexual assault I mentioned earlier, and ofcourse, with the same Re:zero artstyle. Lastly, as for your suggestion whether a Dark Souls like (or any kind of grim and broody) reskin of the show would have suited it well, I don't know honestly, maybe it would benefit the show or maybe it wouldn't. Someone needs to do a sample reskin and release it to the masses. I certainly wouldn't have a problem if the rest of the series, as of today, remained as it is with the new art style. As for your question, for the specific case of Re:zero, I don't think it is the art that makes people call it edgy. It's them skipping on the very thematic message(s) of the show. The show isn't some unprecedented, super philosophical, mind-numbingly deep show. It just has several elements that makes you ponder why characters behaved this way, why things turned out that way and how shit went from 0 to 100 real fast. Just executed well enough for an isekai. It makes one think if an escape fantasy is really worth your time, effort and deaths... or not. Whether you'd go through all that to know who you truly really are or would you grow and fix your shit in real life instead before getting an isekai ticket? No clear cut answers to these two questions because it is all rhetorical seeing how the author has written it so far. I will also add that the author slyly points fingers at several members of the audience when the audience points fingers at Subaru. The common argument I saw for Re:zero was that Subaru is annoying to watch and thus he is too edgy and therefore, the show is edgy and/or bad (whatever edgy here means). As an example, post episode 13, there was a lot of fingers pointed at Subaru, for him behaving as if Emilia owed a lot of shit and feelings for him for all the crap he had gone through for her. Post episode 18, they started calling for his head on a pike because he turned down Rem's 'confession', despite Rem having gone through so much for him. What is the author doing to the audience here? Pointing the finger at them for their hypocrisy. What did a good chunk of people think? "Man this show is soo edgy and trying hard to be unique, by turning down BEST GRILL after all she has gone through for him and all he chooses is some white haired cunt" yada yada... I feel I have rambled quite a bit but hopefully that explains how shows can get called the new 'edgy' with people misunderstanding what the show is evidently trying to convey. I would not be surprised with people calling Berserk, Higurashi and whatnot edgy, under similar arguments. |
KreatorXOct 25, 2019 5:11 PM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
RealTheAbsurdist said: @KreatorX Strong arguments. Now that I think about it though, if the definition of "edgy" = "gore without a purpose" as @Preachee has said, I'm not sure if that can apply to most gory anime. I mean, even in something like Elfen Lied, the gore serves to showcase just how much of a savage the main female lead is. I think instead of labeling an anime as, "edgy" we should call it, "gory without a purpose". By that definition though, something like Hellsing Ultimate is "gory without a purpose" because the gore in that series is just there for entertainment, but at the same time, that's not wrong, because that's the point: Hellsing Ultimate is meant to be an extremely over the top, fun series. However, regarding Re: Zero, I find the idea that the light-hearted art style reflects Subaru's perception of the fantasy world to be confusing. Think about it: after several episodes have passed, after being brutally killed several times, how can this character possibly perceive the new world as something fun? I don't think it makes sense. The idea of an artstyle existing solely to fool the audiences' expectations is self-contradictory: because after the first episode, we, the audience, already can tell that something like Re: Zero is a dark series. We don't need the art style to continuously try to fool us. However, I feel as though the extreme gore in Re: Zero doesn't really serve a purpose. Let me explain: yes, the gore itself serves a purpose to show how powerless Subaru is, but the level of that gore (leg being chopped off) seems to exist solely as shock factor. In Berserk, when Guts chops a guy in half, it serves to tell us how much of a savage Guts is. Higurashi is similar in that it's a gory series contrasted with a light-hearted art style. However, in Higurashi's case, the light-hearted art style served to continuously emphasize the point that the characters are very innocent...to a degree. Yes, in each arc, they go insane and kill everyone, but they're still just teenagers with problems. The light-hearted scenes are them for the most party, just acting like typical teenagers. I think ultimately my problem with Re: Zero is that like many anime with a light hearted style contrasted with a dark premise (Future Diary, Akame ga Kill)...it does not embrace its dark side like Berserk. When I read Berserk, I genuinely feel uncomfortable. With Re: Zero? Not really. If I rewatched Re: Zero now, I couldn't bring myself to emphasize with Subaru's pain, because he's fucking annoying, although that part's subjective. In short, Berserk is unapologetic : it knows what it is, and embraces it. But Re: Zero feels like it's target audience is everyone: young teenage boys who likes waifus (let's be honest here: a large reason for Re: Zero's popularity is because of the waifus) and edgy idiots like me. I think that's why anime like Re: Zero get labeled "edgy": because of the unnecessary contrast between the light hearted art styles and dark stories. I apologize if I haven't made it clear enough. My point is that "edgy" utilizes "dark elements" for the sake of... existing, if that's how I should put it, and certainly, gore is just one of them. In my comment, which I have recently amended, I have further given more points about how "dark" is implemented, which basically stated that "dark" needs thematic depth anent its conceptualization of the elements, which specifically demands most from the writing as well as the execution. It's not that "edgy" necessarily has to consist of "gore without purpose", it's basically, and simply, "being dark but without purpose, or often being dark but doesn't capture and embrace its dark elements". (I have edited a bit in my comment) Now I want to talk more about Re:Zero. @KreatorX certainly has made a lot of reasonable arguments and definitely interesting ones, that had me thinking a bit more into it. I am open to all ideas, and I acknowledge my limitation, so my mind could very much possibly be changed. Nonetheless, there are few problems that I have with @KreatorX comment (knowing that I have only read the first one, all of it would be a bit too long). Firstly, I want to talk about the character that you particularly mentioned - Subaru. In order to make "dark" elements meaningful, the characterization needs to be appropriate. Now by that, I'm not saying the characterization has to be really detailed or completely delved into (like in some dark dystopian novels, there's barely even any characterization), but rather being thematically significant and pertinent. As you see, Re:Zero constructs its own character with a simple mindset, a typical protagonist with absolutely contemptible characteristic to therefore portray the riffraff MCs of humdrum isekais. I get it, that could very much be the case - an intentional artistic choice. But when it comes to "dark", you need more than that, otherwise you will once again fall into the quagmire of shallow edginess. As I watched the entire anime throughout, clearly I have no idea if it really is trying to raise questions for us to explore later on in the novels or what, but if you want to make a "dark" show, you have to fully embrace it. Because in Re:Zero, as I watch the superficial characters in an as well superficial world without much depth and explanation, I also felt unconvinced throughout. I'll clarify more thoroughly. Subaru to me is nothing more than a dumb MC. He is thoughtless, and although his circumstance is reasonably traumatizing, I still don't relate with him, or at least have any sympathy. Why you might ask? Okay, maybe he really is a satire of weebs or typical MCs or escapists, that I might see the point, but I don't agree that he is a well-written "dark" character, at least not appropriate with the themes the show was presenting. After the satire introduction, I need more explanation and depth (and I'm not talking about how Subaru got that power/curse and stuff, those are trifles), I need more solid psychological study, which I didn't receive any. I saw no development in Subaru, other than his blind love for Emilia and him being traumatized all the time. Of course, anyone in such situation would be frightened till death, but if that were the case then even I could write a "dark" character. "People hate him so much" meant nothing to me, I need more psychological rationality and thoughtful writing of Subaru. Or else he's just a cardboard similar to any stereotypical teen who scares when he needs to, angry when he has to, or brave when something spontaneously is brought up to him (or something like that). He is an edgy character with his seemingly reasonably nihilistic thoughts, but that exists not for the purpose I want. So to me, he's not very purposeful to what is contributing to the "dark" themes, because I believe for his little to no developments and superficial suicidal thoughts, he exists just to suffer for our entertainment. So, theme-wise, concerning about the sense of reality it tries to bring about, Subaru has failed as a attribution. This is, of course, very subjective. Secondly, I'll be talking about the violence. Violence exists for various purposes. Sometimes, it is used as something vulgarly fun. Other times, it is used to portray something terrifying. In this case, it is used most often for the shock factor (and also the purpose of your point, which is debatable). I think we can all agree that, without the gore in the first episode, it wouldn't have caught that much attention from the audience, which is vital. But as it progresses, the violence seems more and more predictable. Now, in other blatantly gory series, it is obvious that gore is beyond foreseeable. In Re:Zero, it is the same with a slightly different start, so what might go wrong here? As you said, correctly enough, it exists to show the reality of isekai. And I was convincing myself the same as I watched this show, but as I said, all I felt was "uncomfortable". You see, terror doesn't simplistically derive from blood bath, but a meticulous build up to it. And I stood for what I said. I could predict that the show would definitely implement more gore for that mere sake beforehand, I just didn't know when. That said, I couldn't help thinking of it as pseudo-realistic isekai, which is thus edgy. It might be true that the show was trying to give us a sense of reality and how unhealthy escapism is, but that does not prove this show has depth. Many themes might be hard to deal with, and it is generally up to the writing and execution to determine whether the show is dark or not. If I have an great idea but poorly executed it, I can't say that it's deep can I? Anyway, that really might be the theme, but I don't believe they fully explored it. And yet again, I want to tell you that having a theme does not equate with being successfully dark. It sure is more significant than other isekai because it develops its own path and simultaneously criticizes its peers, but it still is edgy. I really like your point about "escapism" and "facade and he has to live with this dichotomy". It really made me believe that Re:Zero had more depth than I thought nevertheless. |
PreacheeOct 25, 2019 7:42 PM
| . . . |
RealTheAbsurdist said: Preachee said: Firstly, I want to talk about the character that you particularly mentioned - Subaru. In order to make "dark" elements meaningful, the characterization needs to be appropriate. Now by that, I'm not saying the characterization has to be really detailed or completely delved into (like in some dark dystopian novels, there's barely even any characterization), but rather being thematically significant and pertinent. As you see, Re:Zero constructs its own character with a simple mindset, a typical protagonist with absolutely contemptible characteristic to therefore portray the riffraff MCs of humdrum isekais. I get it, that could very much be the case - an intentional artistic choice. But when it comes to "dark", you need more than that, otherwise you will once again fall into the quagmire of shallow edginess. As I watched the entire anime throughout, clearly I have no idea if it really is trying to raise questions for us to explore later on in the novels or what, but if you want to make a "dark" show, you have to fully embrace it. Because in Re:Zero, as I watch the superficial characters in an as well superficial world without much depth and explanation, I also felt unconvinced throughout. I'll clarify more thoroughly. Subaru to me is nothing more than a dumb MC. He is thoughtless, and although his circumstance is reasonably traumatizing, I still don't relate with him, or at least have any sympathy. Why you might ask? Okay, maybe he really is a satire of weebs or typical MCs or escapists, that I might see the point, but I don't agree that he is a well-written "dark" character, at least not appropriate with the themes the show was presenting. After the satire introduction, I need more explanation and depth (and I'm not talking about how Subaru got that power/curse and stuff, those are trifles), I need more solid psychological study, which I didn't receive any. I saw no development in Subaru, other than his blind love for Emilia and him being traumatized all the time. Of course, anyone in such situation would be frightened till death, but if that were the case then even I could write a "dark" character. "People hate him so much" meant nothing to me, I need more psychological rationality and thoughtful writing of Subaru. Or else he's just a cardboard similar to any stereotypical teen who scares when he needs to, angry when he has to, or brave when something spontaneously is brought up to him (or something like that). He is an edgy character with his seemingly reasonably nihilistic thoughts, but that exists not for the purpose I want. So to me, he's not very purposeful to what is contributing to the "dark" themes, because I believe for his little to no developments and superficial suicidal thoughts, he exists just to suffer for our entertainment. So, theme-wise, concerning about the sense of reality it tries to bring about, Subaru has failed as a attribution. This is, of course, very subjective. Secondly, I'll be talking about the violence. Violence exists for various purposes. Sometimes, it is used as something vulgarly fun. Other times, it is used to portray something terrifying. In this case, it is used most often for the shock factor (and also the purpose of your point, which is debatable). I think we can all agree that, without the gore in the first episode, it wouldn't have caught that much attention from the audience, which is vital. But as it progresses, the violence seems more and more predictable. Now, in other blatantly gory series, it is obvious that gore is beyond foreseeable. In Re:Zero, it is the same with a slightly different start, so what might go wrong here? As you said, correctly enough, it exists to show the reality of isekai. And I was convincing myself the same as I watched this show, but as I said, all I felt was "uncomfortable". You see, terror doesn't simplistically derive from blood bath, but a meticulous build up to it. And I stood for what I said. I could predict that the show would definitely implement more gore for that mere sake beforehand, I just didn't know when. That said, I couldn't help thinking of it as pseudo-realistic isekai, which is thus edgy. It might be true that the show was trying to give us a sense of reality and how unhealthy escapism is, but that does not prove this show has depth. Many themes might be hard to deal with, and it is generally up to the writing and execution to determine whether the show is dark or not. If I have an great idea but poorly executed it, I can't say that it's deep can I? Anyway, that really might be the theme, but I don't believe they fully explored it. And yet again, I want to tell you that having a theme does not equate with being successfully dark. It sure is more significant than other isekai because it develops its own path and simultaneously criticizes its peers, but it still is edgy. I really like your point about "escapism" and "facade and he has to live with this dichotomy". It really made me believe that Re:Zero had more depth than I thought nevertheless. Okay, I need to be honest...I feel as though you've written a lot, but not said a lot. Correct me if I'm wrong: you're saying that Subaru's development needs to be thematically relevant to the show, to justify the dark stuff that happens. That's fair, but I don't think you've explained how this show could've accomplished that. I think criticism should be constructive (explain how something can be improved), as I've learned in high school. You're saying that the gore in Re: Zero is "predictable" but not how. As I've said, it is not thematically significant. The development of a character study in a dark show needs to be handle with meticulousity and thoughtfulness. If you believe that a character with constant "suicidal thoughts" for reasonably, he's been suffering from endless trauma, than that's nothing but superficial. I don't want an artificial human that is disabused to be realistic just because he suffers way too much and always gets traumatized. I need depth and layers. If not, I need a character that devotes to the plot or themes of the show (like in 2001:ASO, they subtly present us with the contrast of robotic humans and humanly robots, or how we've come to evolve and become so alienating). But to improve Re:Zero in this case to me would be different. It needs not a character whose purpose is metrical or generalizing, it needs a fully realistic and well-developed character. As we've been through the whole series, Subaru is still the same guy who just undergoes traumas constantly. I wish there were a consolidated psychological inspection of some sort. But all I saw was suffering to develop a figure, and that did not make me satisfied. Subaru is still an edgy and annoying character, both in person and character to me. I said the gore, not the show itself, was predictable and I believed I've made myself quite clear. I said that I knew it would predictably continue on implementing gore for the sake of shock factor, but I didn't claim the show was predictable. Shock factor alone is not enough for me, but I know that some might argue that Re:Zero not only uses violence for shock factor, but also the sense of reality and terror. But no. All I could really think of when they brutally kill Rem is "Why? Oh maybe it's because it would make us realize how horrible the reality is and, yes, to make Subaru depressed once again." When they decide to commit genocide to virtually every character, I then think "Are they introducing all these innocent and kill them for the very same purpose?" I think the answer would be yes. It's not that the themes are making the gore feel powerful, it's essentially and solely the gore itself is making the themes look powerful. And I'm not convinced. |
PreacheeOct 25, 2019 10:10 PM
| . . . |
RealTheAbsurdist said: KreatorX said: The story, plot, themes, characters , and even musical OST too factor into it. Skip on any of it (be it from the audience's side OR the author's/creator's side) and you will have people saying XYZ show tries to hard to be something but never achieves it I'm lost. If I wasn't clear earlier, I meant that if the author forgets about any background or buildup or just added stuff for the sake of it, things would seem amiss (use my earlier shallow example). If the viewer watching the show only watches it for waifus (just for argument's sake), they are going to remain oblivious to other things of the story which give it context. For example, I had said that Subaru's leg getting chopped wasn't done by any random passerby. It was done by someone whom we get to know in detail , and as to why it happened. Necessary context is given. RealTheAbsurdist said: Nope. When some people say it didn't achieve something, I am referring to the idea that there is a strong chance they were being oblivious to certain things. For example, the the theme itself.KreatorX said: (and in favour of the author here, it may have actually achieved that 'something', whatsoever it may be). Wait, I'm lost: correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that Re: Zero is trying to achieve something specific, but you don't know what that specific thing is...? RealTheAbsurdist said: The only character whose actions I think, people ever questioned was Subaru's. Re: Zero isn't an atmospheric anime like Mushishi, or vague like Serial Experiments Lain: it's pretty straightforward, so when shit went from 0 to 100 fast, I don't think anyone questioned how that happened. And here I am busy pondering what made a person react in that manner. As a couple of examples : Why would Rem go through the extent of rejecting Subaru and then confessing to him? Why would Betelguese torture-kill Rem infront of Subaru, chanting mad about this is the fate of those with the burden of love and whatnot. I did not view the story ONLY from the eyes of Subaru. So when you say 'people' not questioning stuff, I don't know which people. I certainly don't belong in that category. Consider there is a trash bin outside of a building. If the majority throws trash in a corner of a room inside the building, then the corner is where the trash is supposed to go. Is that your line of reasoning here? RealTheAbsurdist said: I don't have a statistics chart but there's a sizeable lot who would like to be in Subaru's position and fix things their own way. As I still maintain, I don't speak for others, since stuff like this is open to interpretation because it is a hypothetical scenario (which I have addressed quite a fair bit in the opening paragraphs of my second post addressed to you in this thread).I think it was abundantly clear from the anime, that nobody would want to be in Subaru's position. I think most would people gladly go to school, do homework, study, then get brutally murdered all the time. RealTheAbsurdist said: The hypocrisy is simple to understand:KreatorX said: What is the author doing to the audience here? Pointing the finger at them for their hypocrisy. I don't understand where the hypocrisy is. Replace the positions of Subaru --x--> Emilia (didn't return feelings). Subaru is a cringeworthy shitbag who thinks he has done Emilia a huge favour by going through hell for her. with Rem --x--> Subaru (didn't return feelings) Subaru is yet again a cringeworthy shitbag because he didn't return her feelings when she has done so much in his favour. So why should Rem be given special treatment here and not Subaru. If it fancies your interest, you just have to read the episode message boards here at MAL, as an example. There's reddit too. RealTheAbsurdist said: Speaking of Higurashi and Berserk, what are your thoughts on those series? Do you think they're "edgy"? If yes/no, why? Can't address Berserk here as I simply ignore incomplete shows. As for Higurashi, no, I don't find it edgy IF we are going by urban dictionary's definition of edgy. Why? It wasn't without purpose as the necessary context was given. The second season with its answer arcs were indeed important for it, and I am ignoring the completeness of the show here. RealTheAbsurdist said: Like, I never felt that Subaru's development from an idiotic, selfish, obnoxious dick, to a less obnoxious, more mature person, was connected with the gore. If Re: Zero presented Subaru as actually being traumatized: getting frequent flashbacks, phobias (like maybe of knives, because of how he was killed the first time), becoming distrustful of other people in fear they may try to kill him, overly cautious, then I feel as though his growth would be relevant to the gore; because it's directly tied into the gore. All the dark things that happen in Re: Zero is just gore. Which I think is boring. I've seen plenty of dark anime that are dark not just for the gore, but for other things as well: in Casshern Sins, there's the idea that the world is basically fucked. In Higurashi, when the characters weren't killing each other or playing, there would be extremely tense scenes, like this one: What I'm trying to get at here, is that I wish that Re: Zero was dark, not only for the gore, but for the mental state of mind of the protagonist: show how fucked this kid is in the head, by doing the things I mentioned above. Because now only do I find Subaru to be absolutely unlikeable, in an anime that demands you, the viewer, to like him, because of all the shit he goes through, but he's also...boring. Subaru is basically just every cocky, eccentric, isekai protagonist, but without charm or wit. The only time I felt Subaru was powerless, was when shit went from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye. I think if things went from 0 to 10, then to 50, then to 100, then it would be a lot more tense and exciting. If you are speaking of tense and/or helpless scenes, then what about the time when Rem passes away due to the fever and Ram confronts him with questions of who he really is and what he is upto? What about his decision to contemplate suicide as a way out? What about the whole interaction with him trying to convince Crusch about imminent dire consequences only to get spurned as a madman instead? Just to mention some of them. The anime didn't demand from me to like the character just by the nature of predicaments. For me he became likeable by growing out of his bad attitudes and becoming less obnoxious. Is this what you meant by demanding? As for him being boring? Well... sure, that is your take on him. I don't find him boring and neither do I find him to be the usual run-of-the mill isekai protagonist. There were plenty of other times where I felt Subaru was powerless beyond the gore. Stuff like "for a show to be dark, it must completely embrace the dark side or just stay away from it" is just taking away a thing that helps Re:zero in cementing its theme, which is the visual dichotomy I spoke of in detail earlier. Whether it distracted people has turned out to be completely subjective, even under the purview of a subjective definition of edgy mentioned in an unofficial source called urban dictionary. If Subaru were to somehow seen as 'a person with little to no character development', then at this juncture I simply don't agree with the viewpoint after having discussed this much. And that is all there will be to it. Lastly, if the verdict on the inclusion of gore and killing characters is 'only to make Subaru depressed again', then I have addressed this point time and again that I don't see the story through Subaru's eyes only. Stuff like requiring a 'fully realistic and developed' character despite all that was shown in Season 1, mandates the need for diving into further source material. The discussion has reached that point. This is pretty much the reason why I almost exclusively avoid following incomplete shows because not everyone is satisfied with what is shown and not everyone bothers to check with the source material after that. We haven't been through the whole series yet, where Subaru's backstory gets revealed, we get to know more about him and what makes him tick. Necessary context supporting his behaviour will also be provided through this, which can be compared with whatever ideas on his past life had been formed by the viewer based on the dialogue alone in the anime. Anyhow I will keep a tab on Casshern Sins, and thanks for the heads up because it appears to be a completed show. |
KreatorXOct 26, 2019 2:30 PM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
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