neo yokio

CatSoul said:

Pingu in the City is being fully made in Japan and broadcast on NHK. A significant amount of Neo Yokio's production was in America, and it was made for an English audience.

Pingu did not "penetrate" the DB rules; it follows them perfectly.

Rayzer said:
Hey kid, don't make me laugh, don't even try to lecture me here.
I know it's made in Japan. But was it even an anime?
It's a fucking claymation, a god damn clay animation! MAL was penetrated!

Kineta said:
For everyone who doesn't know, MAL has two major defining points of "what" is anime:
1. Who created it.
2. Who they created it for.

Danpmss said:
I would argue that Madhouse literally owns by Moi Animation and that they are much more like extra handwork than anything (see Berserk Movies and Aldnoah Zero productions).

Also, many of the staff of animators in all of anime are mostly composed by koreans and chinese working on them (pick any random anime and skip to the ED bit and read the credits, that huge chunk of names which aren't in moonrunes are all korean or chinese).

The previously mentioned Telescreen is a major example of an entry that is much more problematic than Neo Yokio in all fronts, yet stays in the database without any trouble.

Danpmss said:

1- It's fully CGI made by Polygon Pictures simulating the old series stop-motion (a studio especialized in Full CGI). Unless you wanna ban Sidonia, Ajin, the FF movies and other CGI titles from MAL, I recommend you to just deal with it. CGI is animation.

2- Stop-motion animation is freaking animation by the very overall concept of it anyway, and some even gained Oscar/academy awards in that category, your argument is more than invalid.

lanblade said:
@Danpmss,
Even if you eliminate Japan for the equation entirely for Neo Yokio, it still doesn't meet the 1st criteria which says "in Korea/China for the Korean/Chinese market;" because Neo Yokio was never released in Korea to my knowledge.

I took a look at Telescreen titles.

Geragera Boes Monogatari - normal. Lots of JP staff in influential roles like Director, I don't see any foreigners listed on staff. Telescreen is listed as a producer alongside TV Tokyo. Makes sense for Telescreen to be here since the intellectual property is a dutch comic and Telescreen was originally a dutch company. The show itself aired in Japan.

Dondon Domeru to Ron - same as above.

Chiisana Ahiru no Ooki na Ai no Monogatari: Ahiru no Kwak - a bit more foreigners working on this. The dutch worked on the music for the show alongside Japan for the OP/ED (dutch only for the OST). Same with the character art/design for the show (2 dutch, 2 japs). Director, planning, screenplay, photography, etc. were all Japs. Dutch intellectual property ergo Telescreen's involvement. The show aired in Japan. So this is a real joint production with almost equal amounts of work. Perfectly acceptable for MAL's DB.

Tanoshii Muumin Ikka - is fine. I see one foreigner listed out of all the staff: Dennis Livson as an executive producer. Makes sense since he's Telescreen's founder and Telescreen is listed as a production alongside TV Tokyo. Which is normal since the source is a foreign intellectual property which Dennis Livson partly owns. He's the dude who made the official Muumin theme park. The show itself aired in Japan.

Ningyohime Marina no Bouken - I see one foreigner listed out of all the animation staff: Jean Chalopin for the screenplay. Foreigners did the music. Aired in Japan. Perfectly acceptable joint production for MAL.

Tanoshii Muumin Ikka Bouken Nikki - same as Tanoshii Muumin Ikka's response.

Muumindani no Suisei - is fine. Lots of JP staff in influential roles like Director, I don't see any foreigners listed on staff. Several JP studios worked on it. Aired in JP theaters.

Bamboo Bears - not much staff is listed online in the first place but a quick scroll through an English dubbed ep on youtube credits shows a lot of foreign names. But I fear it's like what Saban did often with their Eng dubs--literally cut out the foreign staff from the credits. Like the Directors listed are Bernard Deyries and Christian Choquet but there was no mention of Kazuki Kasuga who was the Episode Director. This entry can be a contested entry with more research. I'd love to see the Japanese video's end credits and compare it to the Eng dub ones but I can't find a video for it.

Asides from Bamboo Bears, none of these entries are problematic nor remotely close to the issues Neo Yokio was having.

lanblade said:
@Danpmss,
Even if you eliminate Japan for the equation entirely for Neo Yokio, it still doesn't meet the 1st criteria which says "in Korea/China for the Korean/Chinese market;" because Neo Yokio was never released in Korea to my knowledge.

Kineta said:
Furuhashi needed three people to revise his work? His storyboards were that bad? The final episode lists five people for storyboard revisions.
So did Furuhashi and Nishimura really have any creative input to Neo Yokio's final product? Probably not.

lanblade said:
@Danpmss

> All of the Telescreen shows aired in Europe before airing in Japan (years before, like in the case of Bamboo Bears apparently) if I so recall correctly. Airing in Japan alone means essentially nothing, we have western cartoons airing in Japan much like anime.

Airing in Europe first doesn't matter. No part of the database guidelines requires that it airs in Japan first. It just needs to have aired in Japan, which they did, which is good. That was the reason why Mega Man got removed recently, turns out that show didn't air in Japan even though a lot of staff were Japanese and in high ranking positions. So that's why I had written about the Japan airing for each show, to confirm that they legitimately did air in Japan, and that they weren't like Mega Man.

>The shows were also heavily marketed and produced towards the western audience, and you will mostly find some names here and there of the Japanese staff only because they are either here on MAL or documented in ANN (japanese wikipedia too).

???Joint productions which air in the one of the country's producers is marketed towards that country too? Wow who would have ever guessed. /s
Even so, if more non-Japanese people worked on it than is documented on 3 websites, it doesn't change the fact that the Japanese people that did work on it, were vast in numbers and in many job roles, and always included high-ranking roles like Director and Key Animator and Layout and Script. If foreigners also worked on these roles equally then it's still a valid joint production for MAL.

>The actual vast majority of the people working with most of its titles were from outside Japan, other than he listed staff (some of the staff listed aren't even japanese anyway, like the scriptwriter for Boes, Tom Wyner.

I see Tom Wyner credited as an English dub script writer on other sites. MAL does not care about such a position in reference to the original anime's script. Did he actually work on Boes' original script or was he one of the 30+ English dub script writers credited on wikipedia for Saban's release of the show 2 years after Japan? Especially since the dutch worked on the show too. Like how there are 8 American script writers for Fullmetal Alchemist but they are the Eng dub script writers. Not the show's originals script writers. Even the Anime Encyclopedia makes no mention of Tom as a script writer for the original show. He looks, along with most of the English staff credits in the Eng dub release, are credits attributed to the ADR production.

-KaneKo- said:
If Pingu is on M.A.L So should Neo Yokio. Both are not originally Japanese works that but the studio making it is japanese and they are being simulcasted in both places. The reason Pingu Got to MA.L first is maybe the memes or it being pushed to it by its producer (The NHK) Or a Combination of both

Hellkrai said:
Funny how minus the storyboard revisions and animation being outsourced to A-1 Shelter basically gets away with the same thing
if MOI is in question then how are Haoliners shows on here? Because they have a Japanese Branch (Emon)? But MOI is owned by Studio Madhouse.

"Intended Audience" is a frail argument, mostly created from conjecture. Many fully Japanese produced shows are created toward western audiences as pointed out.
Blade Runner: Black Out 2022 for example is produced to promote an american made movie.

So you have Designs from IG as you said
Pre-Production Animation by Studio Deen
and Animation done by a Madhouse Owned South Korean Studio
Storyboards by Japanese Staff that were overlooked and revised by the American staff that hired them

From what it sounds like is that a lot of the early work on the show was done by Japanese staff, then overseen by the American company who's co-producing it then sent off to MOI and back to America.
We weren't involved so saying that them doing work in the early stages didn't influence at all is conjecture.

The storyboard revisionist are Ben Jones (The Director for the series), and two people he has worked with a lot in his career so saying that "Furuhashi needed three people to revise his work? His storyboards were that bad?" is misguided, having multiple revisionists in not uncommon in animation and the main Director choosing two people he has worked with is common practice and makes sense when you consider that this is a "Co-Production" not them just outsourcing production to the East

all in all while the writing and directing are American saying it wasn't co-produced between American and Japanese (and that one Korean studio everyone hates that's owned by a Japanese studio) studios is clearly false, to say " Professional JP staff had no creative control in Neo Yokio" is false as well given the staff you already listed

skeletonParty said:
two japanese studios publicly saying they co-produced it and them being included in the credits should be the only thing needed for it to be included in the db. they openly took credit for the series and productions ig was the one that first announced it. there’s absolutely no reason to assume they had no creative control when they’re listed as co-producers and japanese directors also storyboarded the series

CondemneDio said:

By that definition, Inspector Gadget should be here.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085033/companycredits?ref_=ttfc_ql_5
Sunrise, Toei and Asahi Productions, along with many smaller studios that worked on various Ghibli films are there.
But I don't think you would even consider that this could be anime.

skeletonParty said:
why was the last thread closed without addressing the fact that the show was produced by studio seen & production IG? it also simulcast in japanese, and it was also storyboarded by kazuhiro furuhashi and junji nishimura

personal taste doesn't change the fact that huge parts of the production were japanese. there are several co-produced series already on MAL

_Poochyena_ said:


If this is all it takes for something as trash as Neo Yokio to be considered anime, there will be a full movement initiated on my part to have Avatar the Last Airbender included in this database as anime as well.

_Poochyena_ said:
If this is all it takes for something as trash as Neo Yokio to be considered anime, there will be a full movement initiated on my part to have Avatar the Last Airbender included in this database as anime as well.

Hellkrai said:
Still nothing yet?
as I mentioned earlier I don't think anything conclusive can be said about how much the japanese artist's involvement have or have not influenced the work.
Though it is very clear that this is a co-production and that should hold enough grounds for it to be added.

Cladocera said:
Now, no matter what the definition of anime is, MAL guideline is there. You're using MAL, you must follow its rules. If you can't then just use another site, there're plenty of them out there.
Though, the rules are written by humans, can not be without errors. And it can be changed time to time, so if you find anything inconsonant, please make a thread requesting for rules changing and they will look at it, instead of yelling here like crazy.

_Poochyena_ said:

This is a simple matter. If it looks like anime; it's anime. Just put it in the database and be done with it. And when I say anime, I refer exclusively to Japan's style of animation since MAL seems abhorrent to the idea that Spongebob Squarepants is also in fact an anime (but they have no problem addressing Pingu as an anime just because it was "made in Japan"). If Spongebob suddenly had production credited to Japan, would it be registered in the MAL database too? Just a thought.

_Poochyena_ said:
This is what happens when people outside of Japan think they can define anime for Japanese people.

Anime is all animation.

The database doesn't need to be so picky about what they put in the database anymore. It's ridiculous. They're trying to be so specific about what can be anime and what can't be, and when they have a bold face anime suggested to the database, they outright reject it cause they don't like it??? Even though it fits all their made up criteria???

This is a simple matter. If it looks like anime; it's anime. Just put it in the database and be done with it. And when I say anime, I refer exclusively to Japan's style of animation since MAL seems abhorrent to the idea that Spongebob Squarepants is also in fact an anime (but they have no problem addressing Pingu as an anime just because it was "made in Japan"). If Spongebob suddenly had production credited to Japan, would it be registered in the MAL database too? Just a thought.

Just add Neo Yokio to the database and stand by your word, MAL. Don't be hypocrites.

TonhaoNoXablau said:
Ask some Japanese people if Neo Yokio is an anime. If they say it is, add it. If they say it isn't, don't add it. Success!

Kuma said:




japan call every animation as anime, even full blown western one like frozen...

Kineta said:
So I misspoke in my earlier post. Let's go back to basics.

The exact rule in the Anime DB Guidelines states that the Japanese staff needs to be involved in significant staff roles of the production. In other words, the animation cannot only be outsourced to Japan; Japanese staff must have some creative control over the final product.

Multiple websites are talking about Neo Yokio as being a joint Japanese-American production, but let's look at the staff lists closer.



So in terms of JP staff, this leaves us with:

Storyboards: Kazuhiro Furuhashi, Junji Nishimura (ep 4)
Preproduction producers: Yuichiro Akita
Preproduction: STUDIO DEEN Co., Ltd
Character designer: Hirofumi Morimoto
Prop designers: Hirofumi Morimoto, Moriyoshi Ohara, Okadochigai

Neo Yokio originally began as a series Production I.G. produced for Fox (American TV), and the creators and writers were American (Ezra Koenig & Nick Weidenfeld). This leaves only designing as the leg of the preproduction process that DEEN may have had involvement with (along with Hirofumi Morimoto, Moriyoshi Ohara, Okadochigai).

However, if you look at the credits list, you'll see that Neo Yokio was actually designed and animated by a South Korean company:

Design and animation by: MOI Animation
Production managers: Eunsun Jun & Aekyeong Lee
Background designer: Chanhee Kim
Character designer: Hyeojun Heo
Prop designer: Hyonho Jeong
Production director: Myeongsoo Song
Animation directors: Youngil Park & Seunghoon Yu
Animators: Kyeongho Choi, Sangshik Choi, Kyeongpyo Hong, Hangbeom Jo, Yunki Lee
Model Checker: Yangsook Kim
Clean up: Sunwha Beck, Haemi Lee, Eunsook Park, Jeonghoon Seo
Final checker: Younsun Ahn
In-between checker: Jeongsook Kim
In-between: Seungok Choi, Eunsun Kim, Hyeonju Kim, Minja Kim, Choi Lee, Eunah Shin
Ink and paint: Kyeongae Jeong, Jean Lee, Youngkyeong Noh, Juyeon Wu
Composite director Bongryong Noh

So the amount of design work JP staff did probably amounted to sketching initial character model sheets for the Korean company based on what Americans wanted. Animators in the Korean company then did the animation based on their own designers' revised work.


This leaves us with one major staff position that would allow JP staff to have creative input in Neo Yokio:

Storyboards: Kazuhiro Furuhashi, Junji Nishimura (ep 4)

These are real anime industry professionals in a solid creative position for the work (and is probably why they're listed in the OP credits).
However, look at the credits from the ED:

Storyboard revisions: Ben Jones, Kiyoshi Nakazawa, John Pham [Nakazawa is an American]

Furuhashi needed three people to revise his work? His storyboards were that bad? The final episode lists five people for storyboard revisions.
So did Furuhashi and Nishimura really have any creative input to Neo Yokio's final product? Probably not.


Now, let's compare these staff positions with other joint-productions in the database:
Afro Samurai -- Look at all the JP staff positions there: director, script, screenplay, character design, sound director, animation director.
Oban Star-Racers -- storyboards, episode directors, animation director, sound, editing, design.


So, 1. Who created it.
Americans created Neo Yokio, Koreans animated it, and two Japanese studios tied their names to it for the purposes of business. JP anime professionals had no control in the creative process. Neo Yokio is an American production with animation outsourced to Korea.

2. Who did they create it for?
They created it for an American audience, to air on Fox TV, but Netflix eventually picked up the rights for it and spun it off to an international market.


Sorry guys, but we won't be adding it to the database since it doesn't pass criteria (1).

SigmaticDoc said:


Of course this is all under the assumption that they didn't have much creative input, but what if they did and the revisions were on a smaller scale?
The main director was Furuhashi, with Junji Nishimura handling Episode 4.
Of course they also storyboarded it, given the fact that they did it does mean they still had creative input, and as I said, the revisions could've been small scale. And even if they weren't, they still had to stick to the overall storyboard Furuhashi and Nishimura did.

and MOI animation shouldn't even be taken into account, since they're just an outsourced studio, at least according to your own guidelines, it shouldn't be.

Most of your reasoning is just going purely on assumptions. And finally, the market which it was aimed at.
If you stick to the point you made, please quickly remove Space Dandy from MAL. Everything Watanabe made, he himself said that he made with a western audience in mind. Not to mention that Space Dandy aired in the US first. But judging by the fact that Cowboy Bebop was the first anime to be added in the database, I assume you might be biased? But what good is bias in a site like this.
You also have to remove Afro Samurai's manga publication. Because it published with western audiences in mind and in the US before it did in Japan.
If you keep it, then add Neo Yokio in order to not make yourselves look like hypocrites.

avory said:
Does it really matter who any of the staff is beside the pre-production producer, bet you didn't know this, but he does over 90% of the work ya know.

Kineta said:
with animation outsourced to Korea.

Syrup- said:
Woah stop the presses! Looks like over half of currently airing anime made today isn't actually Japanese!

Rayzer said:
Touché, they better remove those garbage too. MAL was just being picky as always.
Well, lets hope the anime industry won't go full blown Neo Yokio like production.
Or else, they will lost a lot of "anime" titles on the database.

skeletonParty said:


do you think japanese anime studios are creating animation thinking "uh oh we gotta mark off enough checkboxes for the japanophiles or they wont have it on their website"

Smpavement said:
The mods have a secret rule that they can add or remove any show based on their own discretion. That’s why they’re scared to talk in this thread, they don’t have any legit reason not to add it

Maffy said:

That may be it... OR you could have actually checked the thread and see that the admin has analysed in a few posts as to why it doesn't get accepted and she or any other moderator do not need to give the same answer every time someone decides to bring the thread back from the dead. But hey, I bet being scared is the true reason :P

Maffy said:

That may be it... OR you could have actually checked the thread and see that the admin has analysed in a few posts as to why it doesn't get accepted and she or any other moderator do not need to give the same answer every time someone decides to bring the thread back from the dead. But hey, I bet being scared is the true reason :P