How do you see it as?
romagia said: danielamaghini said: were do you find these mythical harem endingsi feel the need to kill myself everytime it ends with an harem ending if mc picks a girl then it's fine, if not it's just wasted time if only every harem anime was like shuffle... lol i said it in a wrong way i meant where he ends up with no one |
 |
Turtles_Leader said: flannan said: Well, every genre has its awesome shows and its uninspired shows. But you can only know that when you like the genre and have seen enough anime in the genre to make good comparisons. Totally agree with you on that. In the end my point was : when so many of the harem show are like this, we can't be surprised that the way most people see them. I mean a good harem will be considered as an exception, not the norm. Because too many harem are just an excuse to ecchi, and have nothing more to propose. For me that's why it got so much hate. Of course you can watch other, but if you pick randomly a harem show, most of the time, it's gonna be a waifu ecchi bait. It largely depends on what a viewer wants to see. Most harems are some specific genre, most commonly romantic comedy or some kind of action. It annoys me when people somehow completely miss that, are only talking about how it has ecchi girls inside, and still deny that they want to see ecchi girls. |
| harem is fantasy, be it males or females. and making genre from genre makes all harems pretty much the same, cuz if u watch harem anime because harem part only, u probably have some hardcore complexes or u are mentaly disabled person. i dont mind harem if anime is really worth watching, but if main thing that goes for that particular show is harem i cant help myself but dislike it, being quickly bored and thinking why did i waste time on this shit. |
 |
| -Because the MC is plain and boring except The world god only knows and Ouran high school host club. -MC ends up with tsundere character. -The story plot isn't original. -Doesn't have character development. |
 Forum set made by Sereshay |
Turtles_Leader said: Because too many harem are just an excuse to ecchi, and have nothing more to propose. For me that's why it got so much hate. Of course you can watch other, but if you pick randomly a harem show, most of the time, it's gonna be a waifu ecchi bait. And you'd think people would figure out that the primary focus of the genre is generally to showcase a boatload of attractive female characters by now as opposed to tell a deep and enthralling narrative, given how many people complain about this, yet it seems that people are obsessed with trudging through a genre they dislike entirely on a conceptual level because "how else would i know what i dislike lolololol" Many harems that people who don't tend to like harems enjoy, like Monogatari or The World God Only Knows, are able to be enjoyed by many because they are exceptions and not the norm. Maybe I'm weird for not being entirely, 100% concerned to whether or not something makes use of tropes or doesn't reinvent the wheel with every new series released under the label, and maybe I'm weird for not being ultra, primarily focused on something possessing a thought-provoking narrative and complex character development when I'm watching it mostly because there's a few characters that appealed to me on a visual level and I want to see them and their pantsu because I'm a raging pervert. As somebody who tends to like the genre quite a bit, I don't want literally everything in the genre to be like Monogatari and the criticisms that a lot of people leverage against it to paint it as the worst thing ever hold no ground with most people who like the genre is because those things tend to be unimportant to what draws most people to the genre to begin with. Give me more waifu ecchi bait and give it to me in spades :V |
ManabanApr 4, 2017 3:30 AM
 |
| Shokugeki is a harem? Idk, never got that impression. But it might have some harem elements. So do Steins;Gate or the Monogatari Series though. Harem aspects aren't a bad thing. It just happens to be the case that most shows that are harem shows (and not just shows with harem aspects) happen to be badly written with uninteresting characters and a lot of cringe. I don't hate anything just because of some vague harem aspects though, that's silly. I just don't like it as a main genre. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| @Turtles_Leader Ah, very well then. Carry on, carry on, my bad xP Thought you were pushing for changing these aspects of the genre, of which I am thoroughly against, but maybe I was jumping to conclusions with that. |
|
| im a romance anime fan so obviously i wouldnt be in favour of harem anime...its gets annoying anyways even if i wernt an romance anime fan cause theres no real connection between the characters...just all the girls slopping over the MC...and lacks story development as well. |
 |
| well everyone has there preferences...it is immature to hate on others...I personally hate theopen endings and will be happy if MC actually ends up with someone |
 |
| Because people live in strange delusion that lots of ecchi cannot produce good show. |
 |
romagia said: danielamaghini said: were do you find these mythical harem endingsi feel the need to kill myself everytime it ends with an harem ending if mc picks a girl then it's fine, if not it's just wasted time if only every harem anime was like shuffle... Ichigo 100% (Anime). I haven't read the manga though. |
in the manga the mc chose one girl so it doesn't count (best girl lost like always ) |
 |
tragedydesu said: in the manga the mc chose one girl so it doesn't count (best girl lost like always ) Oh... time to hit the Manga. lol (I hope he ends up with the blonde) |
| I don't mind it, it can be funny and/or sexy, but it's not my favorite genre. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
| If only people are willing to read they won't miss Rokujouma the best harem of all time. |
 Kickstarter for Rokujouma is fully funded. Good work everyone. Lets wait for the result of our hard work together. |
| From my current experience: -Main protagonists are weak and indecisive -The whole point of the genre is focus on the girls, so that you'll waifu them, empty your wallets for the merchandise and fap until your dick is damaged beyond repair -Aside from the occasional 'cooking dinner' thing, which will likely be turned into a joke because 'she's a bad cook', most of the girls will be freeloaders The only exception I have seen to this so far are both Tenchi Ryo-Ohki OVAs, Tenchi Universe and (to an extent) Monster Musume. For Tenchi series, while the plot is okay (Go to hell, OVA 3 >_>), the girls have a personality and backstory, plus they help Tenchi and his grandfather manage the shrine by doing chores and whatnot. Also, you only have two of the girls (Ryoko and Ayeka) actively fawning over Tenchi. The rest of his harem is mostly independent. As for Monster Musume, the MC's kind (though slightly bland) personality works because most people are afraid or racist against many of the different monster girl species in-universe. The franchise also benefits from OKAYADO's unique design for each different monster girl, taking into account certain quirks or abilities from their real life counterparts. Sadly those the only redeeming features, as the girls are almost entirely waifu-bait and the series has become 'harem nature safari'. But my opinions will likely be cast away because 'fuck you, you haven't watched enough harem anime, you casual'. |
| I just hate when everybody falls in love with the main character, and he/she is not that great~ Just doesn't make sense. |
  |
Bubble_Pirate said: Oh and the fact in my opinion the harems towards female viewres are lowkey more horrendous. Who enjoys a mindless naive little girl who sutters every second as something to watch. I'd truly watch boobies overload rather. That shit makes me wanna smash something because it's so retarded. In the end if I don't like it it's my own problem. What is the use of complaining about it. Anybody can watch and do whatever they want. I will not deny that female harem MCs tend to be awfully generic, weak and passive. I would like to add that many male harem MCs are just like that, except male. Many people hate that. That's one of the reasons I like battle harems - the MCs tend to be more cool. Even if their personality is just "generic hero", it is still easier to relate. (note that I can find you some exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions) DeadSnow24th said: -Aside from the occasional 'cooking dinner' thing, which will likely be turned into a joke because 'she's a bad cook', most of the girls will be freeloaders That's a cliche that does not happen that often in practice. In a lot of anime, the characters only meet at school. In others, the girls are the guy's personal army or at least bodyguards (Hakuoro has most of his government staffed by attractive girls, it seems). Love Hina, Ai Yori Aoshi and a few others are set in dormitories, and the girls just pay for the lodging. @Turtles_Leader - sorry if my words sounded like I was angry at you personally. |
| I am a simple man, I like me some titties, but I hate shitty Kirito style MC |
 |
| Because that shet is mass produced garbage, like soviet era motor vehicles. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| When harem/ slice of life/ drama/ comedy fans have nothing to watch in a season because everything is shounen they think "I guess I'll sit this season out then." When shounen fans have nothing to watch in a season because everything is harem/ slice of life/ drama/ comedy they think "WHAT?!?!?!? NOTHING FOR MY ROYAL PLINTH-MOUNTED ASS TO WATCH??!?!? I WILL WATCH ALL OF THIS OTHER SHIT AND SCORE IT A 1!" That's why. |
 |
this is the best answer i read today +1 |
 |
| Well they are often very repetitive and tend to have very inconclusive and unsatisfactory endings, not to mention bad protagonists Doesn't mean good harems don't exist though, they're just a minority |
  |
| Well since it's all a matter of opinion I'll do the best I can. Maybe 'too much fanservice, not enough story' "Not enough character traits, or realistic traits.' There are some really good harem animes out there and classics. There's Tenchi Muyo (I haven't seen), Love Hina (classic and feel good), Fruit of grisaia (it's harem but at the same time you can't believe it is), High School DXD. There's some that are mediocre but have some interestingly redeeming qualities like the music and the background. Trinity seven, and more? Right, anyways, it's also probably because there's not enough time to go deep into stories in a harem. Usually we get like an episode per girl, and then they chose the best girl, or no girl which leads to an unsatisfying ending for most people furthering the hate for harem anime. |
 |
Harbur said: Yeah, this is pretty dumb. This is not even hate, it's just plain wrong, lol. I don't understand how people think Harem and Ecchi are synonymous.For Example, I saw someone say, "Shokugeki No Souma is a Harem." Anyways, I tend to dislike harems, but I've got nothing against the genre itself. In fact, I really hope I can find a really good one that I can fully enjoy. Unfortunately, it's tough to really pinpoint the good ones, since there is a lot of run of the mill stuff out there. Mokir said: Well yeah, I can't really argue there. I'd say that despite the lack of a Harem tag, that's really what Monogatari does best.Because they're all not as good as Monogatari. Monogatari has the harem genre on lock down. |
| Sadly because Harem anime just don't have high enough writing quality to justify watching through bullshit. Some great Harem anime exist like To Heart, but most of it is overly saturated with fluff. |
AyameTomoko said: It's not a genre like "romance" or "comedy" which are defined by the tone and (attempted) emotions evoked. It's more like a situation that has been repeated enough to become recognizable. You can't have a show that's just "harem" like you can a show that's just "comedy". There has to be some sort of tone that's trying to get across, whether it be a comedic, erotic, or dramatic, etc. one.Harem is a genre and nothing else. Harems are classified by the relationships and structure of the characters. A structure that is, by definition, disproportionate and unbalanced. A central character surrounded by characters of the opposite sex. Already, you're writing a situation before you even have characters. You're writing backwards. You're going "I have these circumstances, now I need to fit characters into it" instead of going "I have these characters, now I need to create situations organically based on their behavior/personalities". So right off the bat your story becomes a mad-lib fill-in-the-blank. Of course you don't have to fill the blanks in with pre-packaged vacuum-sealed conveyor-belt character tropes, but that's usually what happens (because effort is for suckers). And as for the main character, the situation you've committed to writing demands a character who is indecisive, passive, and otherwise has qualities that prevents any actual romantic development between individual characters. Because if that happened, your story would end. Can't have a harem story if you don't have a harem any more. Harems are romances that can't have any actual romance. Unless you go the "harem ending" rout. But if you decide to do that, it's probably still bad writing unless the interpersonal psychological as well as societal aspects of polygamous relationships in a largely monogamous society are explored (which, let's be real, won't fucking happen). Otherwise "harem ending" is a code-word for "inconclusive" and "fucking nothing happens". Or it's just fantasy that has no interest or basis in reality. Boring schlock. (Unless of course your story has some sort of fantasy/sci-fi setting in which reality is no longer relevant, but then that starts to beg the question why it needs to be a harem in the first place). And that really gets to the heart of the issue: why are harems written? What's the point of them? You can point to examples of harems that "are good", but your reasons for why they are good will be for aspects other than the fact that they're harems. The action is good. The comedy is good. So why watch a harem specifically? Why write a harem specifically? Display. The display of female character designs. The display of female character tropes. The story exists for the sole purpose of showing off the characters, simply for the fact that they are female characters. Everything else is just an excuse to get the female characters on screen. Harems are like body-pillows with girls on them. They're there just to give existence to the characters (not tell an actual story). That leads to what, in my opinion, is the biggest flaw of harems. The main character can't be a main character, because the story, by design, is not about him. It's about the characters around him. The main character is an unwanted distraction. He's a burden that exists solely because the structure of the story demands it. The center of the story is, from the start, irrelevant. Harems are the only stories I know in which the main character is the least important character. It's a great way to write terrible fiction. |
Red_KeysApr 4, 2017 5:56 PM
 |
| It falls to negative stereotypes like self-insert main characters, best girl never wins, and formulaic story. That's not to say there are no good harem anime—I enjoyed Sora no Otoshimono and Saber Marionette J. In truth, however, a lot of other genres also fall victim to negative tropes. |
 |
| Lots of people don't like how unrealistic it is, that a bunch of girls would all simultaneously fall in love with an average high school guy. A lot of girls probably find it offensive, probably, as well. Then there's the tropes and cliches, but that goes for every genre. Harems often aren't appealing to me because I'm a girl, but throw in action or comedy or something, and I can still enjoy the show. People who would drop Shokugeki no Soma because it's a harem (it's not, and it's amazing) are being kind of prejudice, as if no harem anime could possibly be good. And even though the genre isn't my favorite, I've still seen some really good ones like "The World god Only Knows." |
| @Red_Keys I agree that harem protagonists are usually pretty weakly written, but I don't think this necessarily means an entire anime is bad because of it. For example, the recently concluded "Interview with Monster Girls" has the male main character be the subject of attraction for a few of the female characters and isn't a complex character, but the show doesn't devolve to tasteless pandering or unrealistic fan-service and instead utilizes him as a vehicle to explore and learn about the unique issues that the female characters possess in the story due to being from different species. Or we can use Mushishi as another example, it's completely and indisputably non harem, yet the main character doesn't have much character development and is mostly a plot device, yet the show is considered a masterpiece by many. Well, those are examples of shows that can have a good story even if the main character isn't the biggest subject of the plot. Of course, if female characters happen to be just as undeveloped and boring as the male protagonist...there is no defending left to be done to be honest. |
SuperRedApr 4, 2017 6:29 PM
Red_Keys said: Already, you're writing a situation before you even have characters. You're writing backwards. You're going "I have these circumstances, now I need to fit characters into it" instead of going "I have these characters, now I need to create situations organically based on their behavior/personalities" Oh, please. It's entirely possible to make something great with concept and ideas appealing primarily before character development and the idea that the only way to make something good is to focus everything into character development and how they interact rather than anything else is completely asinine. Plenty of things are appreciated primarily on a conceptual level, not just in anime, but across the entire spectrum of entertainment. Unless people want to tell me that Indiana Jones and James Bond are iconic characters in the west because of their complex development, at which point I'd stop taking them seriously because they're both just ideas of characters and not characters who do a lot of growing over the course of their respective series, and the popularity of their respective series rests on the concepts of their series moreso than the characters themselves. Because concepts and situations will always be stuff that people can appreciate and can often be the determining factor in whether or not an individual takes interest in something to begin with or not. There is nothing wrong with prioritizing that. Fine storytelling they are generally considered not, sure, but I'm entirely opposed to the idea that something should be possess a thought-provoking narrative with complex character development to be considered "good" to begin with. If that's what some people tend to like then whatever, although there are many aspects of it that I fail to grasp, but it's not an absolute and there's no reason for people to get off like it is. Things need to be taken at a case by case basis as opposed to have a concrete set of standards to judge every single work of fiction by, at least if the person forming the opinion wants to put up a front of having a reasonable and unbiased opinion. I don't see how people think any sort of discussion can happen in a world where there's a such thing as factually, undebatably good or bad storytelling. Might as well never talk about shit if there's a group of standards that one must accept as "good" and "the correct way to create something." All discussion boards like the ones we're on now are suddenly pointless because there's no room for individual perspective and takes, when absolute, concrete standards of how something should be written to be deemed acceptable for one to consider good are suddenly more than a mere myth. Red_Keys said: And as for the main character, the situation you've committed to writing demands a character who is indecisive, passive, and otherwise has qualities that prevents any actual romantic development between individual characters. Because if that happened, your story would end. Can't have a harem story if you don't have a harem any more. Here's a few to completely spit in the face of this notion, most of which are relatively popular: https://myanimelist.net/anime/11617/High_School_DxD https://myanimelist.net/anime/8525/Kami_nomi_zo_Shiru_Sekai https://myanimelist.net/anime/8841/Kore_wa_Zombie_Desu_ka https://myanimelist.net/anime/5958/Sora_no_Otoshimono https://myanimelist.net/anime/28677/Yamada-kun_to_7-nin_no_Majo_TV https://myanimelist.net/anime/15225/Hentai_Ouji_to_Warawanai_Neko https://myanimelist.net/anime/8424/MM Most harem MCs are unimportant and bland. Totally agree with that. The claim that they always pretty much have to be Rito kind of shows that you haven't got a lot of real experience with harem series, though. The appeal of the genre isn't romance, anyway. You seem to understand what draws people like me to it just fine based on what you say later on in your post, so why you want to act like it's a be-all end-all negative that individual romances aren't allowed to flourish doesn't seem particularly understanding of what makes people who like harems consider a harem "good' as much as just going off of what makes a good romance good or something. I'll be honest, it seems like an incredibly oblivious claim that's speaking of personal issues with the genre on a conceptual level as if they're absolute and tied to the quality. That, and the claim that individual romances can't flourish because it's a harem anime is completely wrong because there's an entire structure of harem anime called the omnibus format. We saw an omnibus in Seiren just last season, and my personal favorite example of an omnibus harem is Yosuga no Sora. Red_Keys said: That leads to what, in my opinion, is the biggest flaw of harems. The main character can't be a main character, because the story, by design, is not about him. It's about the characters around him. The main character is an unwanted distraction. He's a burden that exists solely because the structure of the story demands it. The center of the story is, from the start, irrelevant. Harems are the only stories I know in which the main character is the least important character. It's a great way to write terrible fiction. Masamune-kun did this last season it didn't work out well at all imo, it was just a game of follow the naracisstic jackass around as he fails to listen to what everybody tells him and consistently failing to make the most basic common sense decisions given his situation and yet everybody is absurdly patient with him in spite of this and the worst part was that this jackass completely stole the show away from the lovely lady characters because it was entirely, 100% centered around him Of course, that's just a single anime. I still strongly, strongly disagree with the notion that characters that often don't even appearl in promo material, because even the creators know they're so unimportant to what makes people flock to the genre to begin with, are suddenly the most important characters and should be treated as such. Many of your issues come across as stuff you dislike about the genre on a conceptual level and how it will always be "bad" because the basis of the genre is something that doesn't do things how you think they should be done. Usually I hate subjectivity and individualism as a counterpoint in spite of how heavily I ascribe to those ideas in the context of entertainment, but that's really all that's going on here. You're just masking it up by acting like this is actually a problem at large and not just stuff you don't like about the genre at its core, when it's very clearly the latter. It's fine not to like it for what it is, but to treat it as if it should suddenly become something that it's not supposed to be for it to fairly be considered "good" is a notion I cannot disagree with more. |
ManabanApr 4, 2017 7:01 PM
|
| I don't like Harem objectively because it is cliche. A ridiculous cliche that is. It is a bad ingredient to write a story. Subjectively I don't like all characters in Harem anime. They are annoying. |
 I'm just a self-proclaimed anime elitist. |
| because i start to like one of the girls so much i start to think..dang girl you deserve better then to be one of 11 girls in this guys harem...call me lame but it seems horribul to "share" lovers |
Well, the first reply answered the question. We don't really need a whole thread for this. In general, the worst problem with the majority of harem anime is that there's a spineless main character that's too inept to choose ANY girl. Thus, NO girl ever wins, and they all keep hopelessly vying for his attention - but he'll never notice because he's dense as lead. And that's because the creators are spineless to choose a girl because they're bound to upset fans of the other girls. They just milk the situation for hopeless comedy while never advancing the plot. Then, when they do eventually get off their asses and choose a girl, they choose the most unpopular one that no-one really likes. (Hint: It's always the Oppai monster or the yandere; lolis, imoutos, and childhood friends never win.) We rarely ever get a true harem end where ALL girls win, and we rarely ever get an end where the best girl wins. They just troll us for the ride and leave our hopes in the gutter. ------ I don't dislike harems in general. - They can turn out very well sometimes. The problem is that the majority of them are just reworks of the same old shitty clichés and we rarely ever see one that's actually resolved in an acceptable manner. Examples of harems that actually work out well: Kanokon There are 2 main girls. Though we have the typical beta MC who's inept at making decisions, there's a clear favorite girl from the start and he eventually works up the courage to confess to her. Despite that, he still ends up getting BOTH girls. Though the loli came in second, she still earns her place. Double win: (1) MC actually chooses (2) actual harem end. Kanon (2006) This one's adapted a VN with routes for each girl. The anime explores all the routes in a manner where the main character will become friends with all of them and resolve all their individual troubles, while centering the story around the main girl, Ayu. This anime lacks the competition, backstabbing, and MC infatuation that ruins most harems. Everyone gets along and the best girl wins. (The others are NOT treated as romantic rivals that exist solely to ruin the story - as is the case with most other harems.) Lance N' Masques This was a good change of pace. The loli wins and it was clear from the start that this was meant to be. He gets to adopt a cute daughter too. Each girl gets her place in the MCs family that's best suited to her - in that way, they all win. No Game No Life While the main guy is surrounded by cute girls, this is not a romance story. Everyone ends up getting along without the cringey competition for the main guys D. Seikoku no Dragonar While I'm sure multiple girls might take interest in the MC, it's clear from the start who the best girl is, and best girl will win. Dog Days This is a fun adventure story that has the MC surrounded by cute girls. While they all essentially get along as friends and love the MC as such, it's clear that some of the girls might have more serious feelings for him. There is a clear favorite from the start though. The romance is not really explored in depth, but it is hinted that it is to come. Since all the girls are cute and lovable, it'll turn out well no matter what happens in the end. As you can see, these anime don't fit the typical harem mold, and that's what makes them so great. These anime incorporate the harem as a small component of the overall plot while having enough substance elsewhere to make them more entertaining. A harem for the sake of a harem without a strong plot to back it up usually turns into the clichéd garbage discussed in the first part of my post. |
NyaaApr 4, 2017 10:18 PM
 |
| I dunno why. I love Harem, especially reverse harems with a really freaking hot male leads. Yeah, that works fine with me. Guess, it depends on a person's opinions and personal enjoyment |
on 
| I'm not inherently against the premise of one sex surrounded by many of the opposite sex, but generally it's pretty rare for it to be fun or wind up being a good story. I liked Monogatari and some KEY harems and that's about it. Akatsuki no Yona had harem elements and was good too. I'm still waiting for a serious take on the genre to come around and expose all the issues with polygamy, perhaps in a situation where the girls don't necessarily have a choice in being part of the harem because the MC is royalty or something, but seeing the genre treated that seriously is probably just a dream. Also, Shokugeki no Souma isn't a harem. It's an ecchi comedy battle-shounen-esque show. |
TripleSRankApr 4, 2017 9:58 PM
More topics from this board
» Do you want anime in 4k(or in 8k)Makoto_Yuri - Jan 25, 2022 |
37 |
by Jennycaa
»»
28 seconds ago |
|
» Do you feel just not excited for anime these days? ( 1 2 )anizawa89 - May 10 |
64 |
by SuperAdventure
»»
5 minutes ago |
|
» What do you wish to see ??Lion_Sin - Today |
25 |
by TRC_Randy
»»
5 minutes ago |
|
» If there a Cute Guys doing cute thing would you watch it?RedTea33 - May 9 |
27 |
by SuperAdventure
»»
19 minutes ago |
|
» Successor to "Isekai"NostalgiaDrive94 - Today |
20 |
by KitsuFrost
»»
20 minutes ago |