Azur Lane Episode 5 Discussion

firemagnet said:
For better consistency, compare vis a vis Kantai Collection the Animation once again, which is very consistent with its combat and how the mechanics of it work, save that one episode where Nagato saves the day by punching out an Abyssal.

firemagnet said:
Why must it be anyone at all? Why not have the characters earn that fear and obsession from their opponents, rather than making a history that's never explicitly mentioned or shown a major factor which drives the plot and narratives?

firemagnet said:
I must ask in what sense it was inferior from a standpoint other than its use of 3D CGI, if we're comparing episode to episode. Kancolle has consistently had a better narrative setup, better pacing, and better use of the source material and the actual history of the ships both in characterization and easter-eggs for those who do know the history of the ships in general (see: Sendai, Kisaragi, etc.)

firemagnet said:
The same, however, could be said of Kantai Collection the game, which was essentially a card-collection game with vague references to IJN maritime operations and events via the events system and missions. It took the anime actualizing all of the mechanics found in the game in a logical manner to actually give a plot to the source material.

Azur Lane has not done well by comparison, and it's telling, at least to me, that we didn't get something remotely resembling a fleshing out of the world and its characters until episode four. This didn't make sense to me, particularly given that Azur Lane the game did make an attempt to give some background and story via the Sirens, the mirror sea, and so on. As someone else commented some time back, it's as though the people directing and writing the anime never took the time to interact with the source material.

firemagnet said:
Except that without the explicit incorporation of the actual history of Enterprise into the world of Azur Lane, other than some vague mention that she's "Azur Lane's strongest warrior," we are operating in a vacuum.

firemagnet said:
But it's even more disingenuous to cast Enterprise by that strength alone when that strength itself was founded upon the US cryptographic service having cracked JN-25 and JN-25b, in addition to diplomatic codes, as well as the industrial strength of the United States. Her victories were also shared with USS Hornet, along with USS Yorktown. Given her history, as well as looking at the overall arc of the war with comparative industrial capabilities, by no means would I call Enterprise "OP" or deserving of the station that Azur Lane the anime gives her other than noting length of service and frequency of combat, which could be translated into the aspect of being a seasoned warrior.

firemagnet said:
Except that it is a flaw. I'm well versed in the history of the war and of the naval campaign in the pacific, and I couldn't figure out why Enterprise was being afforded such a wide berth, because that history has been given no due relevance in this show. The issue here is that AL the anime is basing major plot points off of the combat record of USS Enterprise without directly mentioning or incorporating that history into the narrative in some other way which makes it apparent to the audience that this is what is being referenced; as a student of history, it was abundantly apparent that Zuikaku and Shokaku would obsess over Enterprise, since Enterprise sank Akagi and Kaga at Midway and because Japanese naval reporters repeatedly announced that they'd sunk the Enterprise. Were it just her them calling her that name, it would make sense. However, the fact that the appearance of Enterprise alone is forcing tactical retreats and a lack of levelheadedness on the part of the Crimson Axis without a wider demonstration within the world-building of the anime itself makes exactly zero sense.

firemagnet said:
Without wider and properly demonstrated context within the world-building and narrative of the anime itself, for all intents and purposes Enterprise is [b]exactly this[/b], and no amount of fanboying over U.S. naval history will change the fact that without this information being provided to the audience within the context of the show, there is a massive fucking plot hole and outside context problem straight through the heart of this anime.

firemagnet said:
Kancolle the Animation had plenty of historical easter-eggs for those who were paying attention, but it never incorporated them into the plot without making sure that some character or visible part of the story had placed that history within the wider context of the show's worldbuilding.

firemagnet said:
Oh, I've watched anime since 2002, so I'm more than well aware of this particular trope in Japanese anime, from Trigun all the way through to the paragon of that trope, Nanoha. The ephemerality and innocence of youth is like cherry blossoms, and bla, bla, bla...

The more I see it, the less it makes sense, and the more annoying it gets. At least Trigun had the presence of mind from its directors to give it plenty of context by putting it towards the end of the series. Azur Lane is by far the anime where this least makes sense.

firemagnet said:
Precisely, which is why they should have added this for further context.

firemagnet said:
Don't make assumptions of someone else's knowledge or standing. As they say, "assumptions make an ass of u and me." Hence, you would better yourself if you cut the intellectual preening; I've been around the block enough times, read enough stories, read enough fanfiction and tried my own hand at writing my own enough times to have a good sense of what is and isn't bad writing and bad direction.

firemagnet said:
Not incorporating some visible measure of Enterprise's history into the actual sequence of events, such that the reactions of the characters of the Crimson Axis are reasonably demonstrated to the audience as justifiable, is the definition of bad directing and bad writing. They also paint Enterprise the character as a Mary Sue; nothing she has done within the realm of of Azur Lane the animation, justifies the reactions of the surrounding characters that the audience can see. She also suffers no significant or meaningful consequence for a negative course of action (in this case, going out to sea against the advice of her comrades, which results in the destruction of her hull). She's even more of a sea-jesus than Fubuki was.

Speaking of whom: Fubuki, a run of the mill destroyer, is demonstratively shown over the course of about half a season to earn her place among her comrades (and then becomes "sea jesus" in the movie).

firemagnet said:
Telling people to overlook major flaws and "enjoy the fanservice fest" because anime isn't somehow "a well thought out medium" is the height of arrogance and hypocrisy, particularly given what you've indicated your opinion is vis a vis Kantai Collection the Animation. It's also not an excuse. As with any medium, there must be some sort of standard to be adhered to, particularly when the studio itself attempts to suggest a particular standard through promotional material, and then doesn't stick to it.

What i'm complaining about isn't lack of characters; it's the almost total absence of effort to construct a reasonable and meaningful narrative and plot until just the last episode, under the apparent belief that one can have enough clothing accidents and "rule of cool" combat to cover for what would otherwise be a fanservice slide-show, in contravention of previous expectations generated by the promotional material.

firemagnet said:
I expected an anime of a game that has a bigger audience than Kantai Collection, and which regularly shows up in the top 20 for overall mobile game revenue, to have something remotely resembling a logical plot which logically expands upon the source material, as was done by Kantai Collection, Granblue Fantasy, Rage of Bahamut, among others.

firemagnet said:
What I expected was an anime that at least met that standard, as suggested by the trailers. What I got instead was something that made "Senran Kagura Shinovi Master" look like it would win an Oscar for best screenplay and storyboard as it tossed every opportunity to meaningfully build upon the game out the window in favor of Enterprise memes.

GenesisAria said:
The movie breaks a lot of this, where melee combat comes into play, grapples, and even Tenryuu's sword deflecting bullets... My point is, so what? Why does this even matter? To me it was cool. I am actually really enjoying the creative and dynamic combat choreography. There does seem to be quite a consistency actually, and that is in the nature of them behaving like magical girls and using whatever at their arsenal as they see fit for any given moment. It's dynamic and creative. Like that one ship, forget her name, doing an aerial spinning top while firing her gun doing so is a fantasy offensive evasion move, and it was awesome. I have gone on multiple times about the fact that they actually take advantage of the fact that they are humanoid, and actually behave like bipedal organisms, that fight with weapons and can move around quickly and think on their feet. In episode 1 Javelin jumped up on a ship to avoid incoming torpedoes, this would never happen in a series like Kancolle, where the girls constantly pretend they are ship seven though that completely contrasts with all their humanoid activities on land, and even some stuff on sea which breaks the internal logic of the series. It's like having a lightsaber you can turn on and off quickly but never use to get past the others' block, it makes no sense and is stupid (sorry just watched the shadiversity vid about that so it's on my mind haha); why would you intentionally handicap yourself to NOT using something highly advantageous.

GenesisAria said:
I already answered this. If there was no character focus, it would just be an aimless clusterfuck showcase of characters that would be impossible to follow and get nowhere. The fact that a show like Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon can have a bazillion characters and still be able to follow is a stoke of genius by the author and careful planning by the animation team. Most people can't pull that shit off. Azur Lane, as shown by it's production team, is already bordering on incoherent chaos, and to remove any character focus and instead shake it up with more random ships playing random roles, it'd be impossible to follow.

GensisAria said:
The KC tv anime was mostly just fanservicey, with an attempt to give it a plot focus, and it was alright, but it wasn't particularly memorable or interesting. They didn't effectively show off the characters in any interesting ways. Too many filler scenes and episodes for no reason (like the Hotel Yamato joke), etc etc. I can't even remember most of what happened in KC tv anime, now, just the sink plot (which was skirted under the rug fairly fast), and Fubuki stuff, and again a lot of filler. The movie, however, was extremely atmospheric, it showed off the uniqueness of the ships in a very intelligent way to play into the plot and scenes, it added a lot of world-building elements... It even confirmed a fan-theory on the nature of kanmusu and abyssals in a very plot-woven artistic way.

GenesisAria said:
Azur Lane here, is fanservice, and it knows it. Hardcore, no punches pulled, all-out no-fucks-given. It was made abundantly clear in the first episode when they pulled all of that ridiculous magical transfiguration shit out of their asscracks to make for crazy scenes. As the anime has progressed, they've donea fantastic job of weaving many historical nuggets and relations and actions into the anime and tying it into their thus far reasonably ambiguous plot. The character arc of Enterprise is not an unheard of format... Perhaps similar to Violet Evergarden. There's a lot of interesting character development in her that i quite enjoy. Even though Fubuki was the main character of Kancolle anime, she didn't have hardly any character development, nor did anyone else, except maybe a bit of Yuudachi. Getting a weapon refit isn't character development lol. I'm also quite enjoying Ayanami's character arc (and Laffey's daring/bold subversions (which is very much like the real Laffey). As i said before, i got quite emotional in a number of scenes this episode, moreso than any prior.

The character arc of Enterprise is not an unheard of format... Perhaps similar to Violet Evergarden. There's a lot of interesting character development in her that i quite enjoy.

GenesisAria said:
Well i mean, trying to compare the 2 is difficult and not exactly fair. Their approaches are entirely different. Kancolle favors reenactment and character design authenticity within a consistent design philosophy,which is meant to be contextually 'realistic'

GenesisAria said:
The girls ARE the ships. Plain and simple.

In Azur Lane it's a bit different. The AL shipgirls are magical fantasy renditions of the ships, like if you were to take the "essence" of the ship and summon it as a magical girl.

GenesisAria said:
AL ships have their historical respects built deeply into their lore, and their personalities are crafted around that historical lore as if it were events a person went thought, and that reflecting on their personality afterwards. For example i looked at an indepth lore on Akagi, and her past, the reincarnation thing, and how she came to be, and it was incredibly indepth and fascinating. Kancolle has nothing to that extent, cuz the kanmusu are just the ships, and the history stuff goes without saying, it's just background or it's reenacted, but it's not as tightly woven into the personality of the ship. Like Akagi in KC is just a bishoujo archer girl with her design philosophy consistent with the rest of the carriers, and her personality very mild and inspecific. Does any of what i'm saying make sense?

I, Kaga, was built as the third ship of the eight-eight fleet. After being played by fate time after time, I was completed as a large aircraft carrier. Along with Akagi-san, we are main force of the glorious first air carrier division.

"1600 hours...is that so, guess those girls aren't doing too bad." As noted by Kancolle Wiki:

[16:00 hours is] Around the time when the Lexington exploded from uncontrolled fire and had to be scuttled. Lexington was sunk by the 5th CarDiv, and it is said that the crew of the 1st CarDiv commented "Even the concubinage's kids can do it, huh?" (妾の子でもできたんだから).

GenesisAria said:

The shipgirls in Azur Lane are supposed to be humanoid reincarnation things made to parallel the seirens. You can't have the ships without their histories. Again, they aren't jsut ships, they are based on the crew and history and everything of that ship. There is no vacuum. If you don't know the lore of the girl (which includes the real history as a backdrop) then you just don't know the character.

In this case, the anime is attempting to recreate that history ina sense with Enterprise. They are SHOWING you her character and progression within the anime's events. You don't HAVE to know Enterprise's background, but it helps. And if you do you know there's 0 reason to bitch about her having spotlight.

Her reason for having the spotlight is even demonstrated in the anime. Why is she focussed attention so much? Because she does what the rea Enterprise does, be a reckless cockroach jesus ship that is able to hold back an entire empire with her exploits. You said you wanted "show, don't tell", well ironically this is exactly what they are trying to do. Once again if there was no character focus, it would be impossible to do any showing, because there's be nothing to show, but a simple beauty pageant with some cannons firing.

GenesisAria said:
The problem with this you already answered for yourself. Azur Lane is about the ships, not all of the logistics work involved. If you address the ships themselves and the history of those ships only; the USS Enterprise is a ship that japan tried to sink countless times, but always came back with a vengeance. It was even branded with a slogan "Enterprise vs Japan" due to it's individual victories and undying nature against such a powerful foe. In this context, Enterprise's actions, successes and behaviours are very genuine and on point.

As i've said many times, and aswas despicted from the very beginning, Enterprise's nature is to be very reckless and capable, to be able to defeat greater foes and many foes, to be undying. This is where her character arc starts, and was all shown without much if any telling, right from episode 1. As the anime progresses, we see the Enterprise as a girl, undergo human character development from her initial nature which was constructed from USS Enterprise's history independent of USA's logistical infrastucture.

Personally i don't find USA's victory in the atlantic to be all that distinctively determined. USA had more advanced tech and better scopes etc, but Japanese naval experience and determination was really making shit hard for the USA. Ofc in retrospect USA is gonna paint it all up in internal bias, because that's what americans do, overinflate their successes and credit to look better, especially when they are the overall victor.

GensisAria said:
But honestly, i don't think that USA would have fared naerly as well in the atlantic without Enterprise.

GenesisAria said:
This is what is so baffling and even funny to me. I don't play the game, i don't care THAT much about the naval history, my research is very surface level, and i'm getting all this shit out of it NO PROBLEMO. I understand why the characters act the way they do, i make sense of their personalities and character building. Enterprise has the spotlight because she SHOULD have the spotlight. I don't even like or care about Enterprise.

GenesisAria said:
So i have no bias in this regard.

It would make zero sense to have other ship shave spotlight... Even doing Yanami/Laffey/Javelin character development makes no real sense, but these ships are not only popular, they are starter ships, so they can have a pass. Akagi and Kaga are highly favourable, and hard to get (especially together) so again not strange for them to get spotlight, especially as the anime is made in japan.

GenesisAria said:
I explained this earlier. They are reincarnated humanoid magical girl type beings that have their personalities originally constructed using the history as the baseline; it's like their genetics, their nature, THEN when applied to situations, they grow and develop like humans from that initial basis.

GenesisAria said:
Basically every military otaku style anime has historical easter eggs. There's nothing special or unique about that. Strike Witches had it, Uchuu Senkan Yamato has it, Youjo Senki has it, Girls und Panzer has it... i could go on and on and on. How is Azur Lane NOT using historical reference as part of character and world building?

That's literally what i see more than anything. Even Akagi and Kaga talking to Nagato about shit is relevant. It's everywhere.

I was arguing in the past about AL's lack of historical authenticity, but then i realized that it's simply done in a different style and format.

Like i've alread said plenty of times, the Azur Lane story, game and anime, is constructed like a patchwork collage of each ship's individual history, somewhat as reenactment, and somewhat as new development beyond their historical starting points, and it's very very creative.

Kancolle does not stand out from the likes of Strike Witches, Girls und Panzer etc, and in a way is less memorable and interesting as well.

In contrast, Azur Lane is a completely different animal. Everythig is creative, fluid, all kidns of room for inventive ways of interpreting history into it's fictional world and characters, without making it a history knowledge dump. It's a collaborative creative work in which many people play their part adding new interpretations and ideas to the table, creative a dynamic artistic environment. I came to love the Azur Lane girls a lot more than KC's kanmusu due to them being so unique and original.

GenesisAria said:
Maybe you're just thinking about it wrong. Or maybe thereos a bit of human psychology you are not grasping. Actually that's probably it. In modern day,especially in western culture, we are under this delusion that friendships and partnerships etc can ONLY be developed over a long time of doing things together and time bonding. In reality, this is a social fabrication and not really how humans work naturally. The strongest relationships can form in the briefest of moments, with the right trigger to tie you together.

Laffey & Javelin had a quaint but meaningful bonding with Ayanami, enough for her to stick to their hearts enough to desire to grow a friendship.

GenesisAria said:
I said why this is a bad writing decision, and that's because if they make the plan and it turns out exactly as expected, then it's a completely boring turnout, and everyone would be whining and complaining about how it's so predictable and the plot spoils itself and blah blah blah. I know cuz i've been there and dealt with those people.

GenesisAria said:
You are the one who just made the assumption that i was assuming things instead of drawing apparent conclusions using observations as evidence for premises measured upon a probabilitistic comparison table of multiple conclusions. Your statements lead it to be more likely that you are unfamiliar with the way strategic plays do and don't play out as expected in varying circumstances.

Again, i've tested a lot of tactics and strategies, even invented some of my own (well maybe have been done before, but not to my personal knowledge)... Whether or not they kept the plan intentionally out of the frame, the result is the best considering the circumstances, because once again, a strategy going exactly as planned has little to no suspense and is boring in fiction.

GenesisAria said:
USS Enterprise is a sea-jesus though. I'm just telling you the justification for why she is that way. In story she dosen't need a reason. She's a sea-jesus because she's a sea-jesus... look at her sea-jesus-ing. What else do you need to know? The anime is literally SHOWING you that she is a sea-jesus, without narrating WHY by giving you a history exposition dump. This is not the definition of bad writing and direction, you are blaming the wrong thing for the wrong problem. Azur Lane is a directoral and writing nightmare for mostly every reason EXCEPT for Enterprise, Laffey, Javelin, and Ayanami, who are carrying the bloody show ffs. You just sound like you are in the new vanguard of anti-mary-sue due to the explosion of new starwars bitching. Bitching about Ray, a well rounded critic does not make. I've been overanalyzing the piss out of anime for many years. Just look at my shit on Kimi no Na wa, or Revue Starlight (a lot of people didamazing work studying this one, saving me effort), or Happy Sugar Life if you want some examples (i've gone over many more). I even plan to eventually take on the behemoth of LotGH one day and rip it a new ahole. That's just my critique, if you want background, i've extremely well versed in tropes and literary mechanics, reader/watcher psychology, i'm working on my own immense novel series... My background says, you be blamin' the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. It also says that often times what people may say they want, when they actually get it, they realize, that for known psychological reasons and things which are intentionally avoided or crafted around, are generally not enjoyable for the consumer, and they are avoided for this very reason (such as planning something and everything going according to keikaku, unless it's about stroking the l33t sk33lz of the strategist for coolness points (cough, Code Geass).

firemagnet said:
The issue with this is one of styling. For the most part, even during the film, Kancolle sticks to realizing the mechanics outlined in the game. In Kantai Collection, ships with enough "armor" can deflect or intercept shots aimed at other ships. Nothing shown in the series or the film really strays to far from the original mechanics of the game, whereas the same cannot be said of Azur Lane.

firemagnet said:
Except that the focus on Enterprise isn't needed, since the character focus is already on Javelin, Laffey, and Ayanami. Tossing Enterprise in there and making her the perfect warrior destroys what could be a better story of Javelin, Ayanami, and Laffey all actually struggling to achieve something. Since Enterprise is already a mary sue (more on why this is in a bit), with no capacity to evolve as a character, focusing on her, regardless of how true to history this is, makes the story worse in terms of writing overall.

firemagnet said:
I would argue here that the series and the movie did their parts, and they did them the right way. The series was mostly fanservice, true, but it was the right kind of fanservice; enough was there to please the fans without driving away anyone else who also wanted to watch the series. Historical easter eggs, rather than being integral plot points as with Azur Lane, mostly showed up in conversation. Enough was presented mechanically that, aside from Yamato & Truk Island, viewers could understand how most things worked without suspension of disbelief.

firemagnet said:
First, Azur Lane is trying to do too much at once; it's trying to weave two different story-lines together into a single plot, with Javelin, Laffey, and Ayanami composing one, and "Enterprise vs the entire Crimson Axis" comprising the other. At the same time, it's introducing dozens of fan-favorite characters and trying to give each of them enough screentime.

firemagnet said:
Second, it's all but inaccessible to anyone but the most diehard fans of Azur Lane, who can forgive almost any mistake. I play the game, I'm a fan of it, but as a fan, nothing can justify what I've seen thus far, and I'm still waiting for a real expansion that captures and plays upon the actual mechanics of the game faithfully.

firemagnet said:
Speaking of Enterprise:

Enterprise is not Violet Evergarden. Violet Evergarden visibly struggles in her role at the beginning, and is distinctly emotionally stunted from having been a child soldier. Over time, we see her grow through her work until she has her emotional epiphany at the climax of the series, commensurate with her achieving the apex of her work.

firemagnet said:
If we can interpret "contextually realistic" to mean mean "faithful to the source material", then this is exactly what I expected from Azur Lane, and as far as game-to-anime adaptations go, it's been the standard for every other such adaptation as well, including the wildly popular Gran Blue Fantasy. With the standard all laid out, Azur Lane straying from that standard smacks of bad writing and bad directing to me.

firemagnet said:
First, they fight like servants from Fate/Stay Night. They don't fight like ships, and certainly nothing like how they fight in Azur Lane the game. Second, if they are the ships, then the history of the ships needs to be actively be incorporated into the anime, if the directors are going to base major plot points off of the history of the ship, as they did in Episode 5. Otherwise it's completely left of field, and the audience can't suspend their disbelief if every time Enterprise shows up the Crimson Axis all but soils themselves as they run away. Also, this doesn't hold up since there's been no explanation in this regard as to why ship hull and ship avatar can remain separate. Kantai Collection explained it away by basically saying that the girl is the "soul" of the ship, whereas their rigging conforms to the "body" of the ship. As a fan, I'm saying that Azur Lane has yet to do this, and it needs to to maintain its own internal consistency.

firemagnet said:
Until Azur Lane confirms this, this is largely fan fantasy on your part.

firemagnet said:
No, Largely because of what you said about Kancolle, which was actually wrong. If you bothered to actually play Kantai Collection, you would see that the character design itself reflects the appearance of the ship, whereas the history of the ship is reflected in voice-lines and overall disposition.

firemagnet said:
Yes, there is a vacuum. As I explained further on in my original reply to you, if it wasn't Enterprise it would have been another carrier of the USN thanks to the gross industrial (and eventually, technological) disparity. If the director is going to hinge major plot points on Enterprise's performance in World War II, then that performance has to be explained or shown in the anime in some way. This has nothing to do with actually knowing the character and everything to do with good writing and the ability to construct a believable universe.

firemagnet said:
Your ability to fan-wank over Enterprise the character and Enterrpise the ship in no way excuses the anime from actually having to have logical construction for its plot points as well as a believable sequence of events which explains to the audience *why* characters are doing, or can do, what they are doing. This explanation is wholly lacking for Enterprise, given her feats in the anime.



Clearly, you aren't listening or reading, and your desire to fan-wank over Enterprise the ship and the character is getting in the way of your ability to think critically.

firemagnet said:
So, I'll repeat myself:

Nothing, absolutely nothing Enterprise the character has done in the anime so far justifies the reaction that the Crimson Axis characters have. While historical references abound, "Gray ghost" among them, there has been no explicit acknowledgement of Enterprise's combat record, and there needs to be for suspension of disbelief. I have refused to suspend my disbelief, because no such explanation is forthcoming.

firemagnet said:
Also, no, Azur Lane the anime is not playing out her record in World War II, and you're glossing over the fact that Enterprise's victories were more often than not shared with Hornet and Yorktown. Enterprise is no "jesus ship."

firemagnet said:
Her recklessness may be in character, the consequences are not. If Azur Lane is trying to play out "world war 2, the anime," then it should make as much clear. In the absence of that, however, and with a plan to resurrect Amagi already in the works, if Akagi's faustian deal with observer is meant to be believed, Enterprise has not yet earned the credit she is due, and her persona henceforth makes no sense. Enterprise's feats would make sense in episodes 10, 11, or 12, not episode 5, when her combat performance could, and should, be chalked up to happenstance. As I said above, there is nothing that the anime has incorporated which remotely justifies the reaction of Akagi, Kaga, Shokaku, and Zuikaku most prominently to her, much less the rest of the Crimson Axis. If there is, then those characters should state as such. Instead, we see the Crimson Axis flee almost without a word time and again.

firemagnet said:
I'm not sure you understand quite how ruinous that sort of intervention by a single character is to a story, as well as to other characters.

firemagnet said:
I'm not sure you understand quite how ruinous that sort of intervention by a single character is to a story, as well as to other characters.

GensisAria said:
But honestly, i don't think that USA would have fared naerly as well in the atlantic without Enterprise.

firemagnet said:
So you declare, but all your other actions demonstrate otherwise.

firemagnet said:
It would make plenty of sense to have another ship take the spotlight. In fact, giving other ships the spotlight rather than focusing on Enterprise all the time would give, and would have given, more time to flesh out the relationship between Laffey, Javelin, and Ayanami in episode 1 and beyond.

firemagnet said:
After some thought, I've determined that Enterprise's presence at the forefront has nothing to do with her actual combat record, since Azur Lane isn't World War II. The only other explanation possible is that it's because she's the fan-favorite character. Unfortunately, this is the worst kind of fanservice possible, because her presence is meant to be that of the deuteragonist, but her persona and trying to make the anime exclusively for the fans requires that she take the spotlight every single time. This, then, requires that her character arc (insomuch as there can be one, because she's a mary-sue with no critical character flaws) requires the disruption of all the other character arcs and narratives.

firemagnet said:
You didn't refute my point, which is that absent this historical context being incorporated in some fashion that ties directly into the plot, Enterprise's actions and the reaction of the crimson axis to them have no basis in logic, and Azur Lane hence has awful writing and an even worse plot. It does not logically follow that Enterprise's combat record being part of her persona in game means that she must automatically be capable of performing the same feats without prior explanation to the audience within the worldbuilding of the anime itself.

firemagnet said:
You're clearly not getting it. You're really not getting it, are you?

There's a yawning gulf between incorporating a historical nugget or easter egg into a show as a mention for those in the know, and using it as the fulcrum for a major plot point or narrative arc.

firemagnet said:
And it shouldn't be formatted such that the audience has to go out and research it to find out what's actually going on. That's bad writing and bad directing, again.

firemagnet said:
See above. The format is ineffective, and Azur Lane in no way has anywhere near the level of respect or historical authenticity that Kantai Collection does.

firemagnet said:
This is vaguely true of the game, insofar as I've observed, based upon event storylines. It doesn't at all apply to the anime, though. The only thing that's consistent or particularly creative is the appeal to sex appeal in the character designs. Everything else is much more shallow than its Kantai Collection equivalent.

firemagnet said:

It doesn't have to, nor was it meant to. Azur Lane, meanwhile, is, dramatically worse than all three in plot, narrative development, and character development.

firemagnet said:
Having played both extensively, I'll politely disagree. A survey between characters that the games share, particularly when it comes to voice lines, demonstrates that, at least when it comes to the ships of the IJN and the Kriegsmarine (most of the ships in the game), Kancolle does a better job of incorporating the history of the ship and design of the ship into the character appearance and voice lines. Nor, for that matter, are Azur Lane's character designs particularly original; the difference is that Azur Lane has gotten more exposure to a western audience, and focuses more on sex appeal in character design, which of course leads to more revenue. Again, as this other person said, Azur Lane has figured out how to appeal more to "us degenerate weebs."

To illustrate this, compare Taiho(Kancolle):

and Taiho, Azur Lane:


Kancolle's Taiho plays more on the motif of the "armored carrier," whereas Azur Lane's design plays more towards the concept of a "phoenix," (what Taiho's name translates to), and continues the national theme for the Sakura Empire of having their ship character designs be based off of mythological beasts. AL Taiho uses a better color palette, and has a clear focus on sex appeal, but KC Taiho is actually more faithful to the concept and the history of the ship itself.

firemagnet said:
That may be how human psychology works in real life, but you're forgetting that otherization is also very easy. To illustrate that, you need only look at the current political situation in the United States. Moreover, you're forgetting that it does take time for a friendship to begin. Given the time that they were together, and absent a cooperative act, Laffey, Ayanami, and Javelin were not given enough time together to cement anything more than brief acquaintanceship. You are also conveniently forgetting that we're dealing with characters who are based off of larger than life personas.

firemagnet said:
But this doesn't, it actually doesn't, stick in times of war, when groupthink becomes prevalent. Ayanami's approach is the most realistic. Javelin and Laffey are off in lala-land. Their reactions would make sense had they spend a week or more together, but at most they spent half an hour.

firemagnet said:
There was no guarantee of it turning out as expected. Also, it turned out as expected solely because of Enterprise's deus-ex-machina, so your argument here doesn't hold water

firemagnet said:
Which doesn't apply to storytelling convention most of the time unless you're using that strategy-gaming as a way to decide outcomes in a story. The only author whom I know of who did this well was Collin Gee in his "red gambit" series, which played out the events of Operation Unthinkable (the USSR and European Allies going to war immediately after World War II).

firemagnet said:
As I said above, The outcome was only certain because of Enterprise's deus ex machina. Moreover, your own experience with strategy-gaming has precisely zero relevance to the discussion at hand.

firemagnet said:
You still don't get it. Let me put it in simpler terms:

P: If the audience has been shown proof that the Crimson Axis knows about Enterprise's historical combat record, then the reactions of the Crimson Axis are justifiable, and make sense to the audience.



Q: If the audience has been shown definitive proof of P1, the audience must have been shown that Enterprise's combat record is part of the sequence of events leading up to the present.

R: Enterprise's actions and placement in the plot make sense.

If P and Q, Then R.

Since !P and !Q, then !R.

Since the audience has not been shown proof that the Crimson Axis knows about Enterprise's world war II combat record, and the audience has not been shown proof that they know of that combat record in World War II, Enterprise's actions and the reaction of the Crimson Axis to those actions does not make sense.

End of story.

firemagnet said:
To your final quote, I don't have to find reasons to dislike it; the writing and directing really are that bad.

firemagnet said:
They took the worst approach to making the anime that alienates all but the most hardcore fans, who are really just there to see the characters and not see them involved in a plot which makes good use of the source material.