Scum's Wish
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| This anime shows what is rotten in love relationships. Knowing that there is Akanes Minagawas in the world makes me want to remain alone. |
| Akane makes for such a wonderful villain. You loathe her, she's a selfish, narcissistic sociopath, but you simultaneously wouldn't mind crashing and burning in hell for just one night with her. Hanabi has got one huge nemesis. |
| "Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov |
Ysad_Ziwezhan said: ManlyTear said: What's so hard to take seriously? There's way more twisted people in our society that enjoy things that involve physically torturing & killing others, or animals. A gorgeous woman that enjoys being wanted by men and toying with them? Hell man, I know two people like that if I just look at some of my relatives ~ there's plenty of them if you look around enough :P But being immature, sadist and bullying a teenager on top of that? That's what makes her character less credible. Many women do what they want with their ass but they usually aren't focused on destroying others happiness, they just "enjoy their sexual life" free from religious prudery. Here with Akane it's different, we go in the well known binary (black or white) anime villain territory. Not so cool from my perspective for this kind of story, but as mentioned before, since she is a side-character, I don't bother too much, it's just one little flaw. and reading the comments, many seem to be happy to have the possibility to call a woman a bitch without restraint. That's more convenient than some other female characters doing "bad" things but doubting and suffering in the same time, like Ecchan or Hanabi, who are definitely from my perspective a lot more interesting because they are in the grey zone. Sadists and bullies exist in real life? There are people in real life who you would find to be like villians. I don't see the problem? There are serial killers in this world that you can't even imagine existing. There's a lot of crazy people and fucked up people. The show just focus on one those people. I mean, just look at the insane amount of weird fetishes that you can't even imagine people getting off to. Why are you so surprise that this anime potrays someone to be out of the normal when in real life, there's thousands of people who are extremely not normal whatsoever. |
| This is hard to watch |
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| I think Minagawa is much deeper than the show has let on so far. She might be a bitch but I'm sure(read:hoping) the show reveals more about her that might humanize her a bit more. I really feel for Hanabi here, both her and Ecchan are using each other but she's taking it especially hard I think. It's interesting to see how Kanai(brother) is so much more innocent than all of these students who are using each other to fill these voids in them. Great show so far, albeit so damn depressing. |
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| Hmm an episode that focuses on Akane eh hmm so she's been using her beauty to her advantage eh using her beauty to enchant men eh hmm so the reason for Akane being like that is because she doesn't want to be exploited eh You could say that Akane is a collector in that she will try and get targets that are popular with other people. Hmm so she was planning for Hanabi then eh hmm so Akane thinks that she and Hanabi are similar then eh Akane is quite the schemer eh Interesting in that this episode actually focuses on three of the main characters and not just one. The backstory for Akane, Narumi and the reactions of the current Hanabi. Hmm so Akane reminds him of his mother eh Love at first sight lol Narumi's reaction at being told that they already met by akane lol Hmm so even Narumi's confession was planned then eh Akane's goal was to see Hanabi be sad then eh seems she got her wish then Despite being no doubt devastated Hanabi is still considerate of Mugi's feelings as well as he too has feelings for Akane as well So Sanae has been shadowing her then eh its always funny seeing how awkward Sanae gets when Hanabi questions her Still Sanae is one person that Hanabi can rely on hmm it seems are going to get more complex for Hanabi then with Sanae now then Now Sanae is a replacement for her as well then eh In a way Hanabi is actually very similar to Akane in that she too takes advantage of others as well And now Hanabi has to wrestle with that as well now As a result she has to change into a different person in order to beat Akane It will be interesting to see what Hanabi changes to though The confrontation between Hanabi and Akane though was well done Hanabi at last knows what Akane's true self is Hmm an interesting episode we get to see both Akane and Narumi's backstory and also see the consequences of the events that happened last episode. It seems that Hanabi has realized that she too has to change in order to be able to beat Akane at her own game. |
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| These episodes are so intense, fuck Akane |
| So yee.. we have got only 4 episodes but with : Handjob scene, Yuri scene and ofc bed scene. It's awesome that this isn't simple and boring love story. This anime could end up with love between Mugi and Hanabi (idk the ending) but there is awesome story and character personality. Everyone is diffrent. I would like to rate this anime 10/10 but i think i need to see the ending before that. |
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| "I'm not interested in him per se, rather I'm interested in the fact that he's wanted or getting attention" Surprisingly realistic there, that's Modern Women 101 for you. I've witnessed this stuff irl more than once, it's an extremely annoying trait in some women, though obviously not necessarily with the same sociopathic tendencies as the teacher. Pretty good episode, though that lip lick at the end was ridiculous. |
~||Sky of the Night Light||~  |
| My god is there a lot to pick apart in these 4 episodes so far. The show is an emotional roller coaster and it doesn't seem to want to stop. I mean, there are so many complex feelings going on at once that it almost gives A Mid Summer Night's Dream a run for it's money. I really liked the dating advice part, I think that was actually crucial to understanding Hanabi. She feels the kind of love that is unexplainable in contrast to the other girls who seem to be ranking boys based on some arbitrary attributes. Love is not math, and that's the point. As expected, her mutual exchange relationship with Mugi is starting to blur the lines between love and affection. Hanabi seems to be experiencing four conflicting emotional pulls at once: -Kanai-sensei (onii-chan): the feeling of unconditional love. -Mugi: the desire to love him clashing with her inability to do so. Note here, she would exercising one-way love, which is something she herself realized later on. -Sanae: knowing her friend romantically loves her, but doesn't want to lose her. Note here, Hanabi is struggling with why Sanae loves her. Also, note that this causes her to reconsider her "Philosophy" about being revolted by one-sided love others have for her. This time, it's a person who cares about her. She knows she can't return Sanae's love, but she doesn't want to hurt her either. This comes back to haunt her as she realizes that she took advantage of Sanae to fill a void in the moment. -Akane: her feeling of hate and sense of competition with this woman are yet to be explored in detail, but I feel as though her current fear is becoming like Akane. Now, a couple more things. First, I don't think Hanabi is like Akane at all. Yes, she has used Mugi and Sanae, but the fundamental difference is that she feels guilt. To her, this is a moral failing. To Akane, it isn't. Akane is hollow; she's a narcissist. Another reason why her use of Mugi and Sanae is not the same is because Mugi doesn't love her, there's a mutual agreement. In Sanae's case, she does love Hanabi, but she knows full well she is taking advantage of Hanabi in those moments. Yes, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but they do make the situation different. I do have a couple worries at this point. One, we are not really given much reason as to why Hanabi is in love with Kanai-sensei. Now, yes, he is a childhood friend whom she always admired and could depend on, but that gives us very little in the way of his character. Many people can fill that role. At this point, he's just a guy that was there and was nice to her. I want to know what makes him special. What makes him stand out to Hanabi beyond being a childhood friend. I hope they explore this further on, however, you may reply by saying that what makes him special isn't really the point. Trying to reason about love is a valiant effort, but it is fruitless. Many of us don't know exactly why we find others attractive. That is what makes love so unpredictable, yet intuitive. So perhaps, the point is how she deals with these feelings rather than where they come from. Two, another worry of mine is Akane. She isn't human enough. I cannot force myself to believe that a person so villainous, so evil, and so hollow can exist. Sure, there are sociopaths out there, she's not a unicorn. But she seems like a cliche villain. Her motives are quite shallow and not relatable at all, which once again, takes away her humanity. Even in her flashback story, she seems like a complete sociopath. It seems as though her function story-wise is to contrast Hanabi so that we don't get pulled too far into thinking that Hanabi is completely irredeemable, make us feel bad that Mugi is in love with someone so awful, and set up a competition for Kanai-sensei. Akane feels a little out of place to me, like the writer(s) thought that of course, we need a sociopathic philanderer to complete this clusterfuck of a cast. As if the feelings weren't already so complex for the rest of the characters. Otherwise, I am intrigued by where this is going because now I have been assured that whatever the resolution is, someone is getting hurt. |
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| I wasn't sold on this anime before this episode, and this episode just makes me all the more credulous. I know it's called "Scum's Wish", and everyone involved is dealing with various emotional hangups (and not always in a positive way), but it just seems like this show is focused on running these characters into the ground in a way that's interesting to watch, but not exactly fulfilling or especially realistic. Everyone is either abusing/being abused by someone else? Is nobody in this show even the slightest bit virtuous? I personally find it exhausting to watch a show in which every character is just a varying level of depraved without any hope of personal redemption/development for any of them. What is the end goal here? Am I supposed to just watch six people gaming each other and being gamed in return for twelve episodes until they all just emotionally destroy one another? I'm not calling for all of the characters to be stereotypical "good people"--that's not what I'm saying at all. But I also don't want everyone to be manipulative and emotionally broken, or at least, I don't want that to be their only character trait. Give me some positive developments, something to make me want to keep watching to see if any of them will come to their senses. They're all interesting people, but I feel like this show's emphasis on the suffering they seem to put themselves through time and time again leads to a very flat cast and a very nihilistic show. |
And what if all love is an act of bravery? Could you look me in the eye and say that you are not afraid?  |
| Cautionary tale, man. Don't fall in love with onii-chan, or else you'll end up tuggin' dicks under blankets. On a serious note, I see this as a portrayal of the dark side of romance. Is it sad watching them? Yeah. But there's hope. It's a human story and hope is very much a thing us stupid humans cling onto. |
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Reaper71 said: I wasn't sold on this anime before this episode, and this episode just makes me all the more credulous. I know it's called "Scum's Wish", and everyone involved is dealing with various emotional hangups (and not always in a positive way), but it just seems like this show is focused on running these characters into the ground in a way that's interesting to watch, but not exactly fulfilling or especially realistic. Everyone is either abusing/being abused by someone else? Is nobody in this show even the slightest bit virtuous? I personally find it exhausting to watch a show in which every character is just a varying level of depraved without any hope of personal redemption/development for any of them. What is the end goal here? Am I supposed to just watch six people gaming each other and being gamed in return for twelve episodes until they all just emotionally destroy one another? I'm not calling for all of the characters to be stereotypical "good people"--that's not what I'm saying at all. But I also don't want everyone to be manipulative and emotionally broken, or at least, I don't want that to be their only character trait. Give me some positive developments, something to make me want to keep watching to see if any of them will come to their senses. They're all interesting people, but I feel like this show's emphasis on the suffering they seem to put themselves through time and time again leads to a very flat cast and a very nihilistic show. Someone gets it. That's what I've been saying. |
Reaper71 said: I know it's called "Scum's Wish", and everyone involved is dealing with various emotional hangups (and not always in a positive way), but it just seems like this show is focused on running these characters into the ground in a way that's interesting to watch, but not exactly fulfilling or especially realistic. Maybe you could elaborate a bit what is supposedly "unrealistic"? Some examples would help? I'll stipulate the fact that so many different kinds of unrequited loves are combined in the web of merely 6 interconnected people, but I'm willing to accept that as storytelling necessity. Everyone is either abusing/being abused by someone else? Is nobody in this show even the slightest bit virtuous? I personally find it exhausting to watch a show in which every character is just a varying level of depraved without any hope of personal redemption/development for any of them. Whoa whoa, hold your horses. "Abused"? "Betrayed"? "Depraved"??? Aren't you overdoing things? If I look back at my own life, I see certain elements of Mugi, Hanabi and Ecchan in me, in addition to "virtuous" relationships, as well. Sex to which I attributed a deeper meaning than the other (Mugi). Romantic hopes to someone unattainable for a longer time (Hanabi). Willingness to seek and accept TLC and more from someone I was aware was not in romantic love with me, for self-fulfillment and with the faint hope of developments for more (Ecchan). However, I don't see myself as either an abuser, betrayer, and most certainly not as depraved. I'd rather argue that most people share these experiences and have to deal with them one way or another. That doesn't make them bad. If you can go through life "virtuously", bully for you. But then you're rather the exception than the rule. What is the end goal here? Am I supposed to just watch six people gaming each other and being gamed in return for twelve episodes until they all just emotionally destroy one another? Goodness, we're not in "nice boat" territory here. What we see is how they influence each other, and yes, hurt each other. Which is also normal in life - you get hurt, learn and move on. This process is called "growing up". The main reason why I like this show is that I can cross-reference my own life experiences with what happens in the show and see how they grapple with the issues, with which results. I find this very interesting. I'm rather surprised by the either pretended or actual naivete of people who actually think that what is depicted in KnH is so exceptional. It is not. PS: Before this is misunderstood: I think that one can make a case for Akane being called "depraved". But I don't think that the other characters would deserve this label. |
MentarFeb 5, 2017 6:22 AM
| This is one of those animes that I just FUCKING LOVE ALL THE CHARACTERS! They can be as NASTY as they can be! This is seriously putting shame on th3 romance animes I have watched! Now we really need some Yaoi action! I want Mugi to loose it as well and go for them DDDDDDDDDDs |
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Mentar said: Maybe you could elaborate a bit what is supposedly "unrealistic"? Some examples would help? I'll stipulate the fact that so many different kinds of unrequited loves are combined in the web of merely 6 interconnected people, but I'm willing to accept that as storytelling necessity. Well, you stipulated away one of my main arguments, but I guess what it comes down to is this idea that any amount of people, be it two, three, four, or six, would engineer this sort of situation/arrangement for themselves where they are basically using each other to fulfill their longing for someone else. This may be my naivete showing (something that I entirely grant), but clearly this is (a) not healthy for any of them, especially Mugi and Hanabi, and (b) doesn't seem to be the emotionally intelligent response to having someone you love taken away by someone else. You'd be depressed, you'd be angry--of course you would--but these things pass with time, and you learn to love someone else. Isn't that natural? I feel like this development where Hanabi and Mugi begin to mutually exploit one another (and I would argue with you that it is mutual exploitation), which is the crux of the plot, just isn't what two supposedly healthy high schoolers would do if their unrequited loves didn't work out. It seems to just be hurting everyone involved rather than really helping any of them. Mentar said: Whoa whoa, hold your horses. "Abused"? "Betrayed"? "Depraved"??? Aren't you overdoing things? Maybe I jumped the gun a bit, but this is the sense this show has given me. Akane is clearly depraved (but you conceded that point already, so I won't argue too much on that). But Hanabi has, up until now, been using Mugi in a mutually dependent arrangement that is nonetheless something that is not healthy. The developments of this episode seem to imply that she will now go even further on this morally grey track in order to win back Kanai. Ecchan, whom I was interested in as a character from the very start, began to use Hanabi as well, fully aware that the two of them were not in love, and that Hanabi was not even a lesbian to begin with. She even says something along the lines of, "I'll take advantage of you, for all the cruel things you've done for me...I'll take whatever I can get." That doesn't strike me as a healthy relationship in the slightest. Is it abuse? You can argue that point--probably not, to be honest, in the conventional sense. But it's definitely not moral from an emotional standpoint. At this point, it seems like Mugi's childhood friend is the only one detached from all this suffering and emotional trauma. But this show being what it is, I wouldn't be surprised if she became willing to embroil herself in this as well eventually. Mentar said: Goodness, we're not in "nice boat" territory here. What we see is how they influence each other, and yes, hurt each other. Which is also normal in life - you get hurt, learn and move on. This process is called "growing up". That is definitely a natural process, but it's not being portrayed realistically in this show at all, for reasons I addressed in my first paragraph. Calling this show a realistic portrayal of teenage sexuality and growth through pain is like calling a typical high school love-comedy a realistic portrayal of teenage drama and angst. This show's status as a drama which seeks to shock the viewers and demonstrate just how far people can go for someone they love almost necessarily precludes it from being completely realistic, because normal relationships are relatively boring, and would not carry a twelve-episode series like a story about six emotionally broken individuals using each other for sexual fulfillment would. Sorry if I became a little cynical at the end there, but this is honestly how I feel. I understand that you can see some of yourself in the characters and events of this show, and if that is the case, then more power to you. I think it's great to find a piece of media that you identify with and hold in high regard. But for me, someone who has never had anything close to an experience like the ones detailed in this show, I can't help but be skeptical about whether or not this show is really accurately portraying things like human nature and desire. |
Reaper71Feb 5, 2017 7:45 AM
And what if all love is an act of bravery? Could you look me in the eye and say that you are not afraid? |
| This is slowly going from anime to hentai... |
Reaper71 said: [ . . .] Excuse me for self-inserting here, but I'm still not clear on what your main point is? Are you saying this isn't turning out to be a worth-while story because it's not realistic or is it that you don't see these characters as deserving of any of your time? I won't be the one to defend the show's realism, much like you, I haven't experienced most of these situations. I've shared plenty of one-sided feelings for people, I think we all have, but I don't think it's a necessary pre-requisite. Sure, there are many things lining up to create quite a horrible picture, almost too conveniently, right? Oh, of course Akane is a sociopath, why wouldn't she be. Oh, of course Kanai-sensei is a fool who falls for sociopaths, why wouldn't he. But coincidence doesn't make a story bad or unbelievable. Some of the greatest English fiction of all time has incredible coincidences. Just think of Dickens' Great Expectations. There are so many coincidences that it almost makes me sick, but it's an amazing story and we as readers don't think that it's so unrealistic that it's not worth our time. I do not find it difficult to see how these situations could happen in real life. Is it likely that they would happen all at once like in the show? No, but to me, that doesn't detract from the ability to relate to these people, to care about them, and to hope for some sort of resolution. One of the main goals of any visual medium story is to convince the viewer that these are real people, that they're not cardboard cutouts, and that this isn't just a series of events happening to some people. Character should drive plot. Four episodes in, I think they're well on their way to convincing me. |
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| Hanabi and Akane are pure trash. Anime title is spot on. I don't like any character so far but I'm REALLY interested to see how this will turn out. I want Akana and Hanabi so suffer as much as possible and the saddest possible ending in the end :/ Although I have no idea how Akane can suffer (since she doesn't give a crap about anything) or how Hanabi can suffer more than she already is :/ Good things that happen in the end is for Mugi to end up with Noriko and Sensei will stay single. That is if in the next episodes we don't get new information that show that both Noriko and Sensei are high tier trash too and we just don't know it yet. :) |
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| Showing the real, ugly side of the characters. Yeah, I kinda understand where the show's title is coming from. |
| First of all, thanks for civilly discussing this :) Reaper71 said: Well, you stipulated away one of my main arguments, but I guess what it comes down to is this idea that any amount of people, be it two, three, four, or six, would engineer this sort of situation/arrangement for themselves where they are basically using each other to fulfill their longing for someone else. Er, no. Ecchan and Moca are absolutely "on target". And for Hanabi I'd say it's getting into a grey zone, because there are signs that she isn't all THAT fixated on Oniichan anymore. This may be my naivete showing (something that I entirely grant), but clearly this is (a) not healthy for any of them, especially Mugi and Hanabi, [...] What's "healthy" in love? Please don't take this as an attack on you, but the idealized thinking that if you find yourself in love with someone, and they don't love you back right away, the "healthy" decision is that you back off and wait for prince(ss) charming coming in the future _is_ naive. It's all right to hang on and fight, and making experiences which turn out wrong is part of growing up. For example, would you consider giving in to Ecchan a mistake? [...]and (b) doesn't seem to be the emotionally intelligent response to having someone you love taken away by someone else. You'd be depressed, you'd be angry--of course you would--but these things pass with time, and you learn to love someone else. Isn't that natural? No. The natural reaction - if you are in love - is to hold on, fight and hope. For example, nothing has happened yet that would make Hanabi's, Mugi's, Ecchan's and Moca's hopes impossible to fulfill. It would be unnatural to shrug, think "too bad" and move on so easily. I feel like this development where Hanabi and Mugi begin to mutually exploit one another (and I would argue with you that it is mutual exploitation), which is the crux of the plot, just isn't what two supposedly healthy high schoolers would do if their unrequited loves didn't work out. It seems to just be hurting everyone involved rather than really helping any of them. And here, I emphatically disagree. What they're doing is not "exploitation". Or are two people washing each others' backs exploiting each other? No - exploitation is when one side is doing something to their advantage and against the interests of the other side. They are giving each other comfort and relief with open eyes. The "problem" is rather that their "make-believe" play is not going to give them lasting happiness, it is a temporary quick fix that is bound to fail. But this is no "exploitation". But Hanabi has, up until now, been using Mugi in a mutually dependent arrangement that is nonetheless something that is not healthy. The developments of this episode seem to imply that she will now go even further on this morally grey track in order to win back Kanai. You said it: Mutual. Question: How would you judge it if they were cuddling without fantasizing about their lovers? How about kissing? Or sleeping with each other? Ecchan, whom I was interested in as a character from the very start, began to use Hanabi as well, fully aware that the two of them were not in love, and that Hanabi was not even a lesbian to begin with. Ecchan is fully and genuinely in love with Hanabi. She even says something along the lines of, "I'll take advantage of you, for all the cruel things you've done for me...I'll take whatever I can get." That doesn't strike me as a healthy relationship in the slightest. You have this funny habit to classify things as "healthy" or "unhealthy" only. For Ecchan, hanging on to her hope of winning Hanabi over eventually, there is no reason to give up already. She is pursuing Hanabi openly, and I like that she is NOT backing off. Why? Because in this case, she'd only have two decidedly unhealthy choices: The first is to pretend to be just friends, continue to suffer in silence, and continue living a lie. The second would be to sever all contact with Hanabi, and this would have been _disastrous_ for Hanabi in her current situation. There aren't always "healthy" solutions in love. Sometimes the "compromise" is better than the alternative. Is it abuse? You can argue that point--probably not, to be honest, in the conventional sense. But it's definitely not moral from an emotional standpoint. Moral? I'm curious: so what is your idea of the "moral" solution? The lying-suffering Ecchan pseudo-friend, or the severance of the friendship? That is definitely a natural process, but it's not being portrayed realistically in this show at all, for reasons I addressed in my first paragraph. You did no such thing. You gave some reasons why you don't like the developments and consider them wrong, but this doesn't make them unrealistic. Just the opposite: Kids in this age make all these mistakes and more. In fact, it would be unrealistic to expect them to act "healthy" or "moral". Calling this show a realistic portrayal of teenage sexuality and growth through pain is like calling a typical high school love-comedy a realistic portrayal of teenage drama and angst. Not at all, just the opposite: Typical high school love-comedy is usually _unrealistic_ because it sanitizes things and tends to reduce the various dilemmas of _real_ high schoolers to those funny-healthy-moral situations which people would WANT to see. In "Kimi ni Todoke" style dramas the caricatures of the evil antagonists generally lose out, and the moral protagonists prevail. Being patient and "moral" eventually pays off. In romcoms, things tend to get even less realistic: The male protagonist is swarmed by lovable bishoujos for inexplicable reason. Why? Because people enjoy watching this. Kuzu no Honkai does NOT do this. It depicts the dilemmas of all characters and doesn't sugarcoat them. THAT is realism. Because in real life, not the virtuous tends to win in love, but the determined and selfish. But this isn't really fun to watch. If you're saying that you never experienced any of this, then you're either very young or very lucky. I genuinely hope it's the latter, honest :) |
MentarFeb 5, 2017 9:27 AM
Mentar said: First of all, thanks for civilly discussing this :) Hey, you're welcome! And likewise, I appreciate your willingness to talk to me like this. It's not that I want to dislike the show! I just want to get to the bottom of why these recent developments make me scratch my head a little. Mentar said: What's "healthy" in love? Please don't take this as an attack on you, but the idealized thinking that if you find yourself in love with someone, and they don't love you back right away, the "healthy" decision is that you back off and wait for prince(ss) charming coming in the future _is_ naive. It's all right to hang on and fight, and making experiences which turn out wrong is part of growing up. For example, would you consider giving in to Ecchan a mistake? I would, actually. In such a situation, where Ecchan is painfully aware of the fact that Hanabi doesn't like her in that way (to say nothing of Ecchan's knowledge/lack of knowledge about who Hanabi really likes), I'd consider Ecchan's advances to be misguided and willfully blind, and Hanabi's acceptance of them to be morally dubious. I don't think there's an argument to be had on this point, though. The show itself makes it clear that Hanabi is aware that, when she chose to allow Ecchan to have her way or decided to reciprocate, she made a choice that is hard to defend. Mentar said: No. The natural reaction - if you are in love - is to hold on, fight and hope. For example, nothing has happened yet that would make Hanabi's, Mugi's, Ecchan's and Moca's hopes impossible to fulfill. It would be unnatural to shrug, think "too bad" and move on so easily. This might technically true, but only if you're willing to overlook some problematic courses of action on the part of Hanabi, Mugi, and Ecchan within the context of the show. Surely it wouldn't be right for Hanabi to make a move on Kanai-sensei when he's dating Akane, no matter how one-sided such a relationship might be. Same for Mugi. And I addressed Ecchan above. My problem, ultimately, is not that a person deeply in love with someone else would not fight or continue to struggle in order to win their hearts against all odds, though I do feel like this would be ultimately pointless and that giving up might be a better option. What I have a problem with is that, up until this point, Hanabi and Mugi haven't really been "fighting" for the affections of their unrequited loves. Notwithstanding their hidden feelings, they've nominally moved on already, and are using each other to fill the resulting void. Would anyone dispute that, if Hanabi and Mugi were to actually fall in love with each other, they'd both be much happier than they are right now? Wouldn't fully moving on give them much more happiness than sticking around and "fighting" for someone who has already moved on by themselves? I just don't feel like this is an arrangement that does anything for either of them, and my ultimate point would be that, under normal circumstances, both of them would have moved on by now, if only to get past the pain that they both feel. This isn't a process that necessarily needs to happen immediately. Nobody sees their one true love kissing another guy/girl and immediately says, "alright, I'm over it." That's not what I want to see, either. But an arrangement like this doesn't do anything to soften such a blow. In fact, it probably makes things worse. Mentar said: And here, I emphatically disagree. What they're doing is not "exploitation". Or are two people washing each others' backs exploiting each other? No - exploitation is when one side is doing something to their advantage and against the interests of the other side. They are giving each other comfort and relief with open eyes. The "problem" is rather that their "make-believe" play is not going to give them lasting happiness, it is a temporary quick fix that is bound to fail. But this is no "exploitation". Fair enough; exploitation was a poor choice of words. But I think that we agree on the fundamental point: "that their 'make-believe play' is not going to give them lasting happiness." What would instead? My argument is that it is strange for people in this situation to enter such an arrangement with someone else, rather than simply move on and try to forget about something that can never be. Ultimately, this bond between Hanabi and Mugi is just a delaying action that I have a hard time believing anyone would wholly commit themselves to in reality, if only because it just reinforces the pain of not being able to be with the one you really want. Mentar said: You said it: Mutual. Question: How would you judge it if they were cuddling without fantasizing about their lovers? How about kissing? Or sleeping with each other? It would be a normal, committed relationship, I suppose. The unnatural/problematic thing is that they're using each other as surrogates for people they can never attain. That's not really comparable to a sexual relationship in which both people are deeply and truly in love with the other person. Mentar said: Ecchan is fully and genuinely in love with Hanabi. No argument here. But the fact that Ecchan knows that Hanabi is not a lesbian and harbours no special feelings for her, yet makes a move on her anyways, paints that whole scene in an overwhelmingly negative light. Mentar said: ...she is pursuing Hanabi openly, and I like that she is NOT backing off. Why? Because in this case, she'd only have two decidedly unhealthy choices: The first is to pretend to be just friends, continue to suffer in silence, and continue living a lie. The second would be to sever all contact with Hanabi, and this would have been _disastrous_ for Hanabi in her current situation. There aren't always "healthy" solutions in love. Sometimes the "compromise" is better than the alternative. I think your assumption that the first option necessarily entails some indefinite period of suffering and regret is a bit disingenuous. If it's clear that the person doesn't like you back, it's understandable from an emotional point of view that you wouldn't be able to let go immediately. However, continuing to pine for such a person against all the odds is what I would describe as true suffering. Backing off does entail a period of sadness, of longing, of regret--I'm not denying that. But eventually, you're able to forget, your relationship with the other person either normalizes or disintegrates naturally, and you move on. Sticking around in the hopes of somehow being in the right place at the right time just seems more painful to me in both the short- and long-runs. Mentar said: Moral? I'm curious: so what is your idea of the "moral" solution? The lying-suffering Ecchan pseudo-friend, or the severance of the friendship? As I mentioned above, I feel like this distinction is a bit artificial, but if it came down to one of the two, I'd choose the former. That, at least, holds the promise of bringing release/acceptance later on in life. Mentar said: You did no such thing. You gave some reasons why you don't like the developments and consider them wrong, but this doesn't make them unrealistic. Just the opposite: Kids in this age make all these mistakes and more. In fact, it would be unrealistic to expect them to act "healthy" or "moral". I wasn't clear with this, I guess. My main point is that nobody, even teenagers who have a lesser degree of emotional intelligence, would create such an emotionally elaborate arrangement with someone else out of a desire to escape from their feelings for an unrequited love. It's cumbersome, problematic, and doesn't do anything for either party in the long-run. I don't expect people to be able to move on immediately--that's not what I'm saying at all. Nobody can do that. Nor do I expect people in love (especially teenagers) to always be moral and do the right thing. But for this show to put forward the idea that anyone would consider what Hanabi and Mugi are doing to be a suitable replacement for coming to terms with your own feelings and forgetting the past is, in my opinion, ludicrous. It's just too painful and too complicated, and it does not seem like a realistic development to me. Mentar said: Kuzu no Honkai does NOT do this. It depicts the dilemmas of all characters and doesn't sugarcoat them. THAT is realism. Because in real life, not the virtuous tends to win in love, but the determined and selfish. But this isn't really fun to watch. Perhaps. But I don't think it is necessarily realistic to see the virtuous losers in love stoop to the level of the selfish as if there's no other option. You know what they say about wrestling with a pig: you get filthy and besides, the pig likes it. I suppose the fact that I see no virtue in any of the characters so far (or at least, whatever virtue I've been able to pick up on has been eliminated/thrown into doubt by recent developments) is why I find it draining to watch this show. I can't see anything good happening to any of the characters if they continue on their respective paths, and I have no reason to assume they'll change tacks anytime soon. I foresee tragedy, angst, drama, and eventually, nothing. And I guess this is my naive side showing, but if there's no light at the end of the tunnel, I have a hard time choosing to walk down said tunnel. Mentar said: If you're saying that you never experienced any of this, then you're either very young or very lucky. I genuinely hope it's the latter, honest :) Being only in my early-20s, I believe it's probably the former. I don't presume to know anything that you've been through, and obviously anything you've experienced that makes this show that much more believable is inevitably going to be lost on me. But I admire that you're willing to go toe-to-toe with someone you've never met to defend something you're passionate about. I don't believe this show is bad: on the contrary, I admire how open and bold it is with its portrayal of sexuality, and even though I rail on how unrealistic the premise is, a lot of the developments are definitely powerful in a way that most other shows can't match. I just wanted to make clear that I do have misgivings about where the plot is going, and how it looks like it's going to get there. |
Reaper71Feb 5, 2017 10:52 AM
And what if all love is an act of bravery? Could you look me in the eye and say that you are not afraid? |
| Great fking episode..I should have watched it in Thursday when it came out but I had things to do and in order to watch and analyse through my mind masterpieces like Kuzu no Honkai need a lot of time..so we got to see sensei's back story..she likes exploiting people's feelings..she liked to attract..to get whatever she wants..to be admired..she is narcissist and a sadist..she knows it and she likes it..that's why I like her so much..she is a bitch and she knows that ...first time I like an antagonist so much in an anime..and now that she showed her true colors its even better than before..she knows everything from every perspective..now hanabi knows everything too..she got laid with her best friend ecchan..and her problem isn't that she is a girl..but that she is her friend..and she gonna hurt her beloved friend cause she won't be able to see her as something more than that..eechan doesn't have problem by that..it seems that she doesn't care if she gets hurt..she just wants hanabi..to feel her..to touch her..she is amazing too..as a character..the thing I like is the maturity of this anime..the way they show their feelings and their thoughts..too bad we didn't get to see mugi.. |
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SaucyShamrock said: Excuse me for self-inserting here, but I'm still not clear on what your main point is? Are you saying this isn't turning out to be a worth-while story because it's not realistic or is it that you don't see these characters as deserving of any of your time? It isn't exactly either of these. The story isn't necessarily bad because it's not realistic, and the characters are definitely worth my time. What I was trying to say in my original post was that I wasn't sure if I wanted to continue watching KnH if the rest of the show was going to continue to illustrate in gratuitous detail how these people gradually lose sight of themselves and what is truly important while engaging in increasingly immoral courses of action until one of them commits suicide or just can't take it anymore. I would find keeping up with such a story exhausting, especially if none of the characters in question are moral or virtuous in the slightest--and that's the sort of story I've been seeing emerge in the last few episodes, and especially this one. In the end, it's really kind of a nitpick, and if you're not bothered by that type of story, then that's completely fine. I guess what it comes down to is that, for a show to be realistic/grounded, it obviously can't be populated with Mary Sues and Gary Stus who always do the right thing no matter what. But it also can't be populated with people who are all varying levels of depraved/emotionally broken. There has to be a nuanced middle-ground. |
Reaper71Feb 5, 2017 11:06 AM
And what if all love is an act of bravery? Could you look me in the eye and say that you are not afraid? |
| Akane confirmed to be worse than Hitler. Hahaha, all those yuri bait anime that don't even deliver a goddamn kiss and this show goes all "fuck it, have some actual lesbian sex". Where is your god now? |
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Reaper71 said: What I was trying to say in my original post was that I wasn't sure if I wanted to continue watching KnH if the rest of the show was going to continue to illustrate in gratuitous detail how these people gradually lose sight of themselves and what is truly important while engaging in increasingly immoral courses of action until one of them commits suicide or just can't take it anymore. I would find keeping up with such a story exhausting, especially if none of the characters in question are moral or virtuous in the slightest--and that's the sort of story I've been seeing emerge in the last few episodes, and especially this one. But it also can't be populated with people who are all varying levels of depraved/emotionally broken. There has to be a nuanced middle-ground. Well, allow me to try and convince you that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, because I think you do judge these people too harshly. For one, they're not all immoral and horribly broken. If it helps, let's rank characters based on moral culpability from worst to best -- which may be hard depending on your moral compass. 1. Akane. Clearly a horrible person, borderline sociopath. No moral qualms, no respect, no emotion. 2. Sanae (Ecchan) (Still not sure what Ecchan means to be honest...). She takes advantage of Hanabi twice, Episode 4 being borderline rape. Does this make her a terrible person? Not to me. Those are moral failings, but that is a result of her emotions getting the best of her. 3. Hanabi. She is cruel to a lot of people, but she has people who matter to her and her cruelty is not a reflection of narcissism and immorality, but rather a displacement of her frustration and her natural coldness. Hanabi has deep inner struggles which lead to guilt. Yes, she has some moral failings too, but I think they are of lesser transgression than Ecchan. 4. Mugi. I really cannot fault him for much. He hasn't really taken advantage of anyone and has actually shown to care about Hanabi in some capacity. 5. Kanai-sensei. Not much to say there, except if he does eventually have an affair with a student, then I would consider that a moral failing. 6. Noriko. Here too, she's weird and annoying, but she hasn't done anything morally questionable. Now, when it comes to redemption, the only person who I would skeptical about is Akane. She has not shown any sense or moral duty to anyone. Ecchan and Hanabi are very much redeemable. In fact, the relationship between them is the most complex and interesting to me. Hanabi is walking the fine line between letting Ecchan get what she wants and deceiving her. The problem here is that if Hanabi continues to do this, Ecchan will only grow more needy. Hanabi accurately realized that yes, no matter what happens, they cannot go back to being friends. As it stands, I do not see a path to Hanabi realizing some kind of hidden love for Ecchan, so it seems as if Ecchan loses no matter what. However, note that they both had an equal part to play in this. I'll keep it relatively short as to avoid a dissertation, but also keep in mind that we're talking about high school students here. This is the most emotionally confusing time of many people's lives. They feel as though this kind of love is eternal, but it's not. There are only so many times you can get burnt before you realize that maybe you shouldn't touch the burner with your bare hands. Yes it is very much a world filled with darkness at this point, but think about it. Is it not possible that Mugi finds out exactly how horrible of a person Akane is? Would that not change his feelings towards her? Is it not possible that Hanabi says goodbye to Ecchan because she does not want to hurt her anymore? Is it not possible that Hanabi realizes her love for Kanai-sensei is based on some false notion of the past? Contrary to what one may think, I don't enjoy people suffering, but I watch in hopes of redemption, because rising from the dirt is that much more rewarding. |
SaucyFeb 5, 2017 1:32 PM
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| @Reaper71: Well... I think I have understood your points, so let me try to summarize our differences in context, and not in quote-by-quote format anymore. First, I think you're arguing a bit much from the perspective of an omniscient narrator. You seem very sure of which love is "hopeless" or not. In real life, stranger things have happened than a change of heart - especially if you're in love, it is even more difficult to make an assessment. And even if a fair assessment would only give a 5% chance to Ecchan, for example, who are you to deny her the right to pursue her hopes even against seemingly insurmountable odds? As long as she proceeds openly and honestly (which she did), I don't see that anyone would have the right to judge her on it. At least not unless Hanabi tells her to back off, which she very consciously did not. Or take the Mugi/Hanabi "make-believe" makeout, which you perceive as unrealistic. Take the plot-necessary "cross-factor" out that both love the suitor of their respective crush, and you are in the area of perfectly common "friends with benefits" setting. I won't be trying to convince you of this though, so let's agree to disagree here. People being intimate with each other to comfort each other for unrequited romances is not only realistic in my experience, I actually wouldn't even call it uncommon. So you would say that Ecchan lying to herself and trying to stay friends with Hanabi regardless of her pain being around the one she loves without fulfillment is the right thing to do? A nice theoretician's answer, and an utterly uncaring and cruel one. I won't get into too many details, but I've been there and done that. Let's just say that once you accept that your hopes will not be fulfilled, being around the one you love but can't have is extremely painful. So I had to sever ties completely for 4 years to heal the wound, before contact could be reestablished again. We're friends+ again and see each other 1-2 times per year, but option 1 would have been entirely impossible. If you ever advise friends, I strongly urge you NOT to recommend this - it is cruel and unfair. Storywise, do you think that Hanabi would have been better off if Ecchan would have stopped talking to her? If she had disentangled out of Hanabi's glomp and told her "good luck with Mugi or Oniichan - please stay away from now on" and walked away? It would have _crushed_ Hanabi. In my opinion, sometimes temporary kindness may be "immoral" or "unhealthy" and still be more helpful than your principled refusal. We'll have to agree to disagree here, too. So, in conclusion, I believe that we're not so terribly far away from each other when it comes to assessing what happens in the show. You're using terms like "virtuous", "moral" and "healthy" a lot, but unfortunately, if this is what you're looking for, this isn't the right show for it. But I genuinely hope that your real life is closer to your ideas than mine ;) |
TrashDax said: Akane confirmed to be worse than Hitler. Hahaha, all those yuri bait anime that don't even deliver a goddamn kiss and this show goes all "fuck it, have some actual lesbian sex". Where is your god now? If I want lesbian sex, I can look up porn or hentai. You can have good yuri without anything sexual. |
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| @Mentar: You make some really good points, but ultimately, because of our differences of perspective, I think we will have to ultimately agree to disagree. Arguably, your viewpoint is probably more valid than my own (considering you've actually been through some of the things the show is depicting), but I'm just calling it as I see it. Hopefully, by the end of the show, we can come together and find some more common ground! @SaucyShamrock: I don't think that the characters as they've been laid out so far are completely irredeemable; in fact, my whole discussion with @Mentar above was presaged, among other things, upon the fact that I felt it would be easy for most of them to decide to move on and go their separate ways, thus ending the downward spiral that most of the find themselves in--specifically Hanabi, Ecchan, and to a lesser extent, Akane. However, I feel like things are only going to get worse from here on before they get better, if circumstances even improve at all. Thank you so much for discussing this with me, you two! You've given me some new perspectives on the show as a whole. |
And what if all love is an act of bravery? Could you look me in the eye and say that you are not afraid? |
| ... ... if nothing else, the episode was aptly titled. Akane's personality is definitely quite warped. Though her core MO was revealed, I bet she still has a lot more in store for the viewers. The development between Hanabi and Sanae was also intriguing. I guess now everyone is taking advantage of someone else, at least as far as the main cast goes. That makes Narumi's sincerity even more tragic... The background music was particularly commendable during this episode, along with the visuals. |
| This would make a great hentai unlike current hentai that sucks balls. |
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| THIIIIIIIIIIIISSS FAKE ASS BITTTCCHHHHH TEACHER! LITERALLy 5 MIN INTO THE EPISODE AND I HAD TO TAKE OFF MY HEADPHONES, TOSSED IT ONTO MY DESK AND HAD TO GO FOR A WALK CUZ OF HOW MUCH THIS HOE INFURIATES ME HOLY TRIGGGGGGGGGGGEREREREREREDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD |
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| It's been a long time since I've seen good drama/tragedy like this. Ahhh, it hurts so good. Makes my heart race. Turns my face red. These scenes, that art! |
HecticLeo said: This would make a great hentai unlike current hentai that sucks balls. Preach it, brotha' (or sista')! There's like barely any good yuri hentai out there, in anime form at least. I'm not about to reduce myself to reading fan fiction and literotica. |
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| Watching this show makes you feel very frustrated, depressive and sad. But even though that is the case, this show is simply great so far. Nothing good happens, but you still can't help but love what you see, the way it depicts romantic and sexual relationships has been marvelous so far. I also love how it feels very realistic in how the characters act and their emotions. Kinda feel the desire to punch Akane and Ecchan now, for both of them being deceitful bitches. Although Akane is the worst one by a great margin. But no matter how awful the personality it is part of what makes the show so outstanding right now. I'm quite fascinated by this. From what I'm watching this season this is clearly AOTS and deserves way more attention than that Harry Potter clone. |
| I'm feeling thank you |
| I feel they made the teacher too crazy, I think the whole wanting to see people hurt cause she took would they wanted/have is a step to far. It almost changes the whole story from being about people be hurt by love to one extremely crazy teacher trying to ruin peoples lives. It almost feels like which picture doesn't belong with the rest type deals. Anyway realistically someone would have whoop the teachers ass by now whether the guy or the guys girlfriend. |
| Best episode so far. Some friends told me they cried watching the past episodes and I couldn't and still can't get why. I mean, it's not that sad, is it? Idk. I just feel so good about those mean people playing with other people hearts~~~ I thought sensei would end up being my fav character, but now that Hanabi is going to become somewhat of a heartbreaker too, well, she's probably continue to be my fav. Who knows, though. But shit, that was soooo good. Loved Akane's POV. And Ecchan knew she was being used too. And... Whoa. That was freaking amazing, help. |
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| This anime is soooo good. I like how it is very different from other Romance tagged anime I have seen so far!!! ugh Akane... i kinda hate her... but she is so pretty >u< I really hope for Mugi and Hanabe to ending up together... they make the perfect couple <3 |
∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿ |
HecticLeo said: This would make a great hentai unlike current hentai that sucks balls. With such a story, so many conflicted feelings and no weird fetishes involved, it would become the best hentai ever. There will never be something like that in anime format. Only in manga format it's still possible. By the way, Mengo Yokoyari, who wrote Kuzu no Honkai, did Hentai. If a Hentai version of this is ever needed, she can draw it herself. @Mentar Everything you wrote is so on point, I don't need to add anything. Thank you. |
HecticLeo said: This would make a great hentai unlike current hentai that sucks balls. Hentai art is too shitty to even be compared to this. |
rizuxizu said: HecticLeo said: This would make a great hentai unlike current hentai that sucks balls. Hentai art is too shitty to even be compared to this. You took the words right out of my mouth. |
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| Wow wow that is pretty hot even though there are so many forbidden relationships |
Machination said: Now we really need some Yaoi action! I want Mugi to loose it as well and go for them DDDDDDDDDDs Mugi x Onii-chan would be awesome:D but it won´t happen...sadly! This episode made me realize that everyone is scum here, except Kanai and Noriko. Kanai is being deceived and thinks Akane is a goddess, while Noriko knows that Mugi is a womanizer but still loves him regardless, because she used to be his childhood friend. Hope next episode gives us more Mugi~ |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| This episode was kind of the series first major misstep in my opinion. On the one hand I'm glad they're expanding on the teachers a lot. I kind of figured they'd stay one dimensional objects of desire possibly for the whole series. But the supposed crazy reveal that Akane is like obsessed with stealing men and the feeling of despair that brings to other women was a bit much. Parts of her very long monologue were interesting. But overall the whole thing struck me as broad. Especially the very end lick lip. Even though I really liked them together last time, I also didn't particularly enjoy the scenes with Ecchan this episode. I think this show has from the start had very weird and warped relationships. And that's part of the point, I'm sure most of this show will be Hanabi correcting that. But her and Ecchan together this episode was just unpleasant. And honestly bordered on rape, though the series didn't seem willing to make that judgment. It was melodramatic but when they introduced Ecchan's crush her love felt like the most healthy. Now it doesn't seem that way, although at least Hanabi started enjoying it right? This brings us to my final point about this episode, how out of control the ecchi has gotten. I just remember the scene in the beginning where the soon to be smoking young man is grabbing a big old handful of Akane's tits felt very cartoonish and out of pace with most of the show. I also thought this episode all in all made some questionable animation choices. But Ecchan and Hanabi's love scene took the cake. Those like three slightly animated splash pages in a row. Kind of weak. |
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