| Inb4shounenfanarguments. Maybe we should be more careful with spoilers and keep the conversation actively about why there are people that aren't dying in battle shounen when they should be. =) I think ever since SAO, a lot of series are more lax with killing off people (especially at the beginning), which sort of broke the 'nobody dies in shounen' barrier. Roll back a few years and it was taboo to even show blood in shounen if it wasn't a scratch near the cheek. Imo, the industry is still young in that department and thrives to get better at it, just give it some time. My opinion is that I would like it if an anime transferred main character either by death or just point of view switch; I feel like an author that can pull this off well has something worth watching, because it's not easy to ditch all of the effort done. I can think of a very popular "note" anime that did it and it caused much controversy. I feel like important deaths shouldn't be predictable even if the conditions make you expect people should die more (something like the main character dying), but I've never seen the main character killing himself (without coming back to life) in order to save a dying ally. Maybe shounen main characters aren't put in these situations enough or are always to be saved by someone at the last minute. What I know is that a recent recurring trend is to make someone supposedly invulnerable (unless put in a vulnerable position) die this way, sort of like how the only uber weakness superheroes have are the weaker people they want to protect. Off-topic a bit : |
| _____________________________________________________________ Come visit the Rec club! Everyone gets confused as to what they want to watch or read next. :T Here is the Official Rec Club list of Recommendations! |
People not dying at all in general and death copouts..are two different levels. I mean, it doesn't really make the series worse. Maybe you can say "it reduces tension" or whatever, but come on, nobody has been dying in OP for the past 20 yeas, can you say that if random supporting character who is to never appear again had died. Would it really make *that* big of a difference in series quality? No. edit: Oh wait yeah, maybe I should lay low on the spoilers. But still, I mean, I don't think it really makes much of a difference. Unless the situation is so big to an extent that the character absolutely had to die in order to make it not seem like pointless emotional pandering. Or if it was farfetched for them to survive anyway. |
ashfrliebertApr 12, 2017 7:03 PM
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
| Seems some other.. casual.. haven't seen SAO... Mirai Nikki... and Akame Ga Kill yet.. Their Deaths are way too hopeless.... Who needs them to live more.. |
 "Think about that glowing dust That destroys the night sky's dream of Just being nothing"--  -- |
| Do sales indicate whether it's better for people to die or not, though? -> It sure does for the author. Maybe newer series fail-interpreted this as quantity of deaths rather than quality of deaths. What this comes to show is that death is the ultimate plot twist, because you basically remove a whole potential story line (from a character) from the story. However, the setup and consequences of that impact are what's important. Just like in a video game, if you have a checkpoint every 10 seconds, you'll look forward to it a lot less than when you get one every 5 minutes. Same goes for the difficulty to reach one, which is comparable to the pent up tension in a series. |
| _____________________________________________________________ Come visit the Rec club! Everyone gets confused as to what they want to watch or read next. :T Here is the Official Rec Club list of Recommendations! |
| I actually don't care if no one is dying.Fairy Tail has some death moments.Not many but still some.I actually hate it if some of my favorite characters are dead. |
 I will not believe that everything is controlled by fate. ll X ll |
zal said: On_the_Lam said: Re:Zero has yet to reveal its explanation but there is (I got spoiled about it).No, because Re:Zero is trash as a whole, and the resets in Erased make no fucking sense. Pretty sure they at least gave explanations in both Steins;gate and Madoka. DBZ (referring mostly to the resurrection as I don't know anything about the time resets) and most of the show do give explanations as well to why those characters don't stay dead, be it the main theme or not it is still an explanation. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they don't give explanations about why and how Homura and Okabe can travel time. Weren't you the one complaining about the Incubator's powers? |
| I don't think its the lack of death that matters, but the lack of sticking into their rules that results in plot convenience. |
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Isterio said: From start to finish bullshit arguments and on top of it factual wrong if volume sale numbers are any indicator. One Piece peaked in popularity once people finally died in the present timeline. A level that wasn´t reached till this day even remotely. Of course this has to be attributed, to the general change of pace & increasement of stakes, the series had entered surrounding said deaths. Nope, they aren't. Nana has sold more than Berserk, I shit you not. The tension was at an all time high because "Shit got real" for the first time and no one seemed to be safe. The story was at it´s most unpredictable and delivered the best writing it ever had to offer. The only reason those deaths were remotely surprising was because One Piece had killed absolutely no one else in the series outside of flashbacks. If by "no one is else safe" you mean "none of the side characters who were JUST introduced this arc were safe", yeah you're right. And even with 60+ named characters, only two died anyway. From the buildup that started with the ending of the Thriller Bark arc to it´s conclusion in the Marineford War and it´s aftermath. It was built up so well that it was inevitable. Whitebeard was on life support in his debut volume. And with Ace, it was all like "THERE WILL BE THIS BIIIG EVENT THAT WILL SHAKE THE WOOORLD". This will never be surpassed because Oda at the time took certain risks and delivered plottwists that shook the story to it´s core By certain risks you mean..killing TWO characters, out of the hundreds of characters in this series who had not died before in the last 56 volumes. You do see the extremely low bar set here. promising even greater things and delivered stagnation or even regression of character development instead. If no one relevant dies in the final war, I'd agree with you on that. But there is no greater things promised than two supporting characters death, The Whitebeard War was a climactic high point. That was never planned to be reached ever until like, the end. The entirety of the marineford and the entirety of the strongest crew together, and Luffy completely useless in the middle. That was "the point". Naruto´s first post timeskip deaths were masterfully delivered and also initiated the peak of the series writing as well as it´s commercial succes. No one denied the effectiveness of . It´s about how well the death is intertwined with the general plot of the story. Yeah and One Piece had gone 56 volumes without killing anyone and it didn't matter to the quality even remotely. Remember when the Grand Line was a totally different stage to the East Blue before it and remembers how many people died because of the dangers of the sea? Oh. wait. Two. TL: DR. If the characters you kill are interesting enough and/or their death advances the plot it´s the most effective plot device, if it´s used choppy or even lazy it´s the worst most infuriating one, because nothing is accomplished. There is no worse feeling than experiencing any form of media, knowing that you are supposed to feel invested in the characters tragedy and not give a fuck. One Piece has character tragedy? |
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
| [quote=ashfrliebert message=50335946] Nope, they aren't. Nana has sold more than Berserk, I shit you not. I can´t comment anything on that one I know barely anything about berserk. Besides that it´s the most inconsistent Manga of all time and know next to nothing about Nana. However what I can say is that you compare two opposite demographics and genre. That´s stupid. ashfrliebert said: The only reason those deaths were remotely surprising was because One Piece had killed absolutely no one else in the series outside of flashbacks. If by "no one is else safe" you mean "none of the side characters who were JUST introduced this arc were safe", yeah you're right. And even with 60+ named characters, only two died anyway. That´s true, but only in hindsight or from the persepective of an experienced 20+ Manga reader who has witnessed and possibly analyzed a fair amount of media during his lifetime. However, if observe One Piece, from the perspective, of an inexperienced adolescent teenager, this Manga was aimed at, a decade ago, you´d have seen many deathflags for Zorro in particular and Bon Clay wasn´t magically ressurected yet. Pell at the time was the only "confirmed" dead character that magically got ressurected. Papaya was a similar case, but unlike Pell or Bon Clay he didn´t have an emotional farewell speech before being staged against certain death. It was a more innocent time when people actually thought thought Sasuke may die at the end of Naruto. ashfrliebert said: It was built up so well that it was inevitable. Whitebeard was on life support in his debut volume. And with Ace, it was all like "THERE WILL BE THIS BIIIG EVENT THAT WILL SHAKE THE WOOORLD". Yes, but it wasn´t talk alone. Just compare post timeskip One Piece that promised "ALL THIS SHIT" all this amazing shit that´ll happen and continues to dissapoint, by introducing "infinite" new characters and plotlines that cannot be resolved in a satisfiyng manner. The buildup to whitebeard was good, but it wasn´t just oh Whitbeard is awesome. Before that shitty war where Whitebeard yelled commands for 30 chapter and moved his ass in two unique events took place. The Strawhats lost for the first time in the series, no only that, they lost overwhelmingly to an enemie they outnumbered. The events lead to the obligatory Shounen timeskip. The formula was dismissed by having Luffy go on a solo adventure. All of this right after they had declared war on the World Government Everything was unpredictable and exciting. ashfrliebert said: By certain risks you mean..killing TWO characters, out of the hundreds of characters in this series who had not died before in the last 56 volumes. You do see the extremely low bar set here. No I meant killing off a fanfavorite sidecharacter, having the main character go through character development by making him grief, that was unthankfully, mostly regressed, to keep his antics intact and remove 90% of the main cast in favor of the main working off new sidecharacters. Risks that partially failed with Dressrosa. ashfrliebert said: If no one relevant dies in the final war, I'd agree with you on that. But there is no greater things promised than two supporting characters death, The Whitebeard War was a climactic high point. That was never planned to be reached ever until like, the end. The entirety of the marineford and the entirety of the strongest crew together, and Luffy completely useless in the middle. That was "the point". You´ve gotta go away from that mindset that the Whitebeard war was the everything be all. It was just the last part of it and therefore the most memorable, but those chapters didn´t have just the war. It had an amazing buildup throughout, for around 200 chapters including Enies Lobby and after the climax it delivered a great well paced epilogue. One story flowed into another and kept building up, ashfrliebert said: Yeah and One Piece had gone 56 volumes without killing anyone and it didn't matter to the quality even remotely. Remember when the Grand Line was a totally different stage to the East Blue before it and remembers how many people died because of the dangers of the sea? Oh. wait. Two. Well, for the average joe the Grand line is a dangerous place. If you don´t have superpowers like the Strawhats or plot armor like Bartolomeo you´d be dead there. It was made pretty clear that places like Little Garden, the Calm belt or even the regular aren´t playgrounds for normal humans. The story did retcon itself a couple of times, but those are two people that were somewhat big names in the story. I found it pretty grusesome to see people getting squashed by a giant ship through baroque works, or burned alive by Akainu, or die of thirst in the dessert. Furthermore the flashbacks always made a pretty good job at depicting the world as mean towards the main cast. Law´s being the most resent example, depicting something right out of Schindlers list, singularly elevating that piece of shit arc named Dressorsa by several points. One Piece also ressurected or confirmed alot of people alive long after their arcs had past on. Like Mr 1. |
IsterioApr 13, 2017 10:26 AM
| Killing characters off for drama every time is not good writing, if people die that easily there would be no society. |
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ichii_1 said: Bleach is the best shonen when it comes to killing characters considering most of the characters are already dead.Killing characters off for drama every time is not good writing, if people die that easily there would be no society. |
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But i guess that show is Seinen, don't? |
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| Killing off multiple characters doesn't really enhance a show. Akame Ga Kill has a lot of deaths yet is a shit show. The few deaths of main characters in Naruto are far more impactful than the multiple deaths in Akame Ga Kill. Characters die so much in Akame Ga Kill that death is literally fanservice for the anime. I found myself at one point solely watching Akame Ga Kill to see which character would die next. Death was so common in AKG that I became apathetic to the characters dying. The and I couldn't care less. No kind of emotional music or backstories made me care about the deaths in AKG because death became fanservice. |
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Nope. It's shounen. The manga is serialized in a shounen magazine. |
DrGeroCreation said: ichii_1 said: Bleach is the best shonen when it comes to killing characters considering most of the characters are already dead.Killing characters off for drama every time is not good writing, if people die that easily there would be no society. They are only dead in a physical way not spiritual, bleach's take on death is more complex than mere edgy killings.  |
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So, i also guess it's problem solved!!! Thanks man! |
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ichii_1 said: They are both dead and alive at the same time, mind=blown.They are only dead in a physical way not spiritual, bleach's take on death is more complex than mere edgy killings. |
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| I feel like Jojo handles this aspect better than any other shonen I've seen. It maintains a good balance so that you don't eventually grow numb to their deaths due to their abundance (Akame Ga Kill) or grow to stop caring altogether due to their sparsity (Fairy Tail) And the ones who die still leave a meaningful impact on the characters and plot, so it doesn't seem like it's all just death for the sake of deaths. But if a character's SOLE purpose in the story is to die, and kickstart another character's development, that's also an issue. A show should have the audience get invested in these characters first, so that we'd give a damn about their demise and want to see them avenged. |
  ✧༝┉˚*❋ ❋*˚┉༝✧ 鼻をくすぐるGunpowder & Smoke ジャララ飛び交うEmpty gun cartridges 紅いヒールに見惚れて うっかり風穴欲しいヤツは 挙手をしな ･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ 🍰 ଘ(੭*ˊᵕˋ)੭* ੈ♡‧₊˚ ✧༝┉˚*❋ ❋*˚┉༝✧ |
Gohdhand said: Anime which take place in the context of a war or other violent scenarios need to have a lot of death. It just doesn't make sense for it not to, and the arguments against this are so dumb. First, there is the 'realism' argument. People who use this argument seem unable to use basic logic, so I will explain why this argument is stupid briefly... A lot of death in war is realistic, whether you like it or not. People will then argue that "but flying and superpowers aren't realistic either," which is completely retarded. @RVDA had it right; whatever the show establishes as the basics or boundaries of that universe is now considered realistic when you are inside that show's universe. If the main characters are up against enemies with similar levels of skill, then it's only realistic that the enemies aren't the only ones who die. Unless the show establishes as a law of the universe that the main characters can't die (and then it's a terrible show), it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to have those main characters survive the entire series if they are constantly put in dangerous situations. Now, obviously you need to have at least some of the main characters survive, but a show like Fairy Tail where nobody ever dies is just dumb and unrealistic. The other common argument I've seen is that death is for 'edgelords,' which is basically just an opinion and not an actual argument. If you don't like death, then fine, but don't complain about how death is only put in to appease these supposedly edgy deviants and has no intrinsic value in itself. Ultimately, death is a large part of war and danger, and so it is only natural that it is seen in anime where situations of peril are common, like shonens. Death happens suddenly, without warning, and sometimes before you get to know the person as much as you wanted to. Sorry, but majestic, heroic deaths just don't happen in real life, and I don't want to see that theatrical shit in anime either. You keep saying "realism", and I will keep saying that shounen battle anime is inherently not realistic in any way or form. No, it is not about flying or superpowers. It is about everything that we know about real world being blatantly violated. Major conflicts are fought without any important characters dying (some even manage not to kill anybody!). Main characters beat other people up so much they become friends. Power of moral convictions (love, friendship, philosophy or just plain revenge) can easily multiply a person's power hundred-fold. Personal power can be gained on-screen a lot faster than any off-screen gain of personal power (for example, 1 episode training sequence makes a MC more powerful than any non-named professional warrior, and two of them can elevate MC to the level of top 10 fighters in the world). Yes, this means that it is perfectly normal for the world's best fighters to be 10-year-old kids. By the way, training sequences can be more deadly than any real battles, but nobody bats an eyelid when a 10-year-old kid does one. Oh, and all those child soldiers do not get any psychological problems from being child soldiers. If somebody needs cheering up (by beating him up, because that's how you cheer people up in shounen anime), it is because his parents don't love him, and not because he had killed 10 people on-screen before meeting MC. ...and so on, and so forth. Any part of a shounen will break down into complete lack of realism (or at least into batshit insane death world on the level of Disgaia's Netherworld) if looked at critically. It only works because it is idealistic. |
Gohdhand said: Now, obviously you need to have at least some of the main characters survive, but a show like Fairy Tail where nobody ever dies is just dumb and unrealistic. You should have a little bit of research before making statements that are clearly false: http://fairytail.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Deceased |
flannan said: You keep saying "realism", and I will keep saying that shounen battle anime is inherently not realistic in any way or form. No, it is not about flying or superpowers. It is about everything that we know about real world being blatantly violated. Major conflicts are fought without any important characters dying (some even manage not to kill anybody!). Main characters beat other people up so much they become friends. Power of moral convictions (love, friendship, philosophy or just plain revenge) can easily multiply a person's power hundred-fold. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you, because all of those things support my point. I am saying that in place of those things (which are unrealistic), there should be death and more realistic battles. My point about realism was that characters having superpowers does not automatically mean we can throw all logic out the window. SuperRed said: Gohdhand said: Now, obviously you need to have at least some of the main characters survive, but a show like Fairy Tail where nobody ever dies is just dumb and unrealistic. You should have a little bit of research before making statements that are clearly false: http://fairytail.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Deceased It's called hyperbole, if you've ever heard of it. There are plenty of instances in Fairy Tail where a character should have died yet miraculously made out alive, and there are even more instances of characters fighting each other in a deadly conflict yet they all survive at the end, which doesn't make sense. |
 What's the difference? |
Gohdhand said: flannan said: You keep saying "realism", and I will keep saying that shounen battle anime is inherently not realistic in any way or form. No, it is not about flying or superpowers. It is about everything that we know about real world being blatantly violated. Major conflicts are fought without any important characters dying (some even manage not to kill anybody!). Main characters beat other people up so much they become friends. Power of moral convictions (love, friendship, philosophy or just plain revenge) can easily multiply a person's power hundred-fold. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you, because all of those things support my point. I am saying that in place of those things (which are unrealistic), there should be death and more realistic battles. My point about realism was that characters having superpowers does not automatically mean we can throw all logic out the window. And I am saying the genre has nothing to do with realism. If you want realism, watch some other story about superpowers, like Darker than Black. By being realistic, they stop being shounen battle anime. |
zumac said: Death Note, Attack On Titan, Code Geass, Akame Ga Kill and Gurren Lagann are shounen right? Also HxH, JoJo and even nardo have deaths. There are enough deaths in shounen. Maybe you should watch something else but One Piece. Can't blame @Omni for taking out the frustration of his fav favorite anime turning shit on all of its genre. I think the argument he was trying to make was Time Relative, though. In which case it's not a matter of generalizing a whole genre, but critiquing how often High Stakes appear or feel meaningful in Action Shounen. In his example of One Piece that frequency is once every 250+ episodes which pales in comparison to those you mentioned. I'm sure this goes without saying but here it is anyway but death isn't the only stake. All the anime the OP criticised could quite as easily included one reminder of mortality. For instance we learnt of Luffy's health both when he uses his Gears (blood pumped) & how his lifespan was taxed when escaping for prison. Yet, hundreds of episodes go past without even delving into this reality and now There's no authenticity. One thing is for sure, though. I'd concede that i've seen an equal amount of deaths in shounen relative to the lack thereof but the longer an anime runs, the less frequent we see them. -Because death implies plot and story/character substance which steer the story perhaps away from avenues the writer wants. The only shounen-action anime i can think of that has 50+ episodes & countless character tragedies is Berserk. I'm not talking 1-3 deaths like in Akame Ga Kill, most of which you accept within the day but deaths that leave you speechless and upset for days/weeks. |
“Join my wander, to a yonder. In search of the meaning from mystery & wonder ... And when tragedy finds us, and breaks our bodies, we'll find peace in one shared mind.”  |
| Well you have to look at what the audience the show is aiming for; boys, don't forget the fact that there is death in these shows and it's the enemies of the heroes, they don't die a bloody death, they disappear into darkness or simply fade a away or was knocked out in a dangerous place. They COULD be dead or alive depending on what the author feels like but if they don't show up anymore you can pretty much consider them dead. Remember that killing the protag or his side kicks could cripple the author from either story writing or make the people hate the product to the point of dropping it, so it's a very scary thing for authors who never made it a point from start. |
Gohdhand said: flannan said: You keep saying "realism", and I will keep saying that shounen battle anime is inherently not realistic in any way or form. No, it is not about flying or superpowers. It is about everything that we know about real world being blatantly violated. Major conflicts are fought without any important characters dying (some even manage not to kill anybody!). Main characters beat other people up so much they become friends. Power of moral convictions (love, friendship, philosophy or just plain revenge) can easily multiply a person's power hundred-fold. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you, because all of those things support my point. I am saying that in place of those things (which are unrealistic), there should be death and more realistic battles. My point about realism was that characters having superpowers does not automatically mean we can throw all logic out the window. SuperRed said: You should have a little bit of research before making statements that are clearly false: http://fairytail.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Deceased It's called hyperbole, if you've ever heard of it. There are plenty of instances in Fairy Tail where a character should have died yet miraculously made out alive, and there are even more instances of characters fighting each other in a deadly conflict yet they all survive at the end, which doesn't make sense. Why do you seek realism in a show with superpowers and what does it mean? |
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flannan said: And I am saying the genre has nothing to do with realism. If you want realism, watch some other story about superpowers, like Darker than Black. By being realistic, they stop being shounen battle anime. There are shonen that are more or less realistic, though, like Hunter x Hunter. Obviously you can't have a shonen that is completely, 100% realistic, and that isn't what I am looking for anyway. I was talking about the extreme end of things where barely anybody dies and people are able to overcome obstacles through the power of friendship and things like that. TheBrainintheJar said: Why do you seek realism in a show with superpowers and what does it mean? The fact that you brought up the show being about superpowers demonstrates that you didn't understand anything I've said so far. What I mean by "realism" is not "nobody should have superpowers because they don't exist in real life," but more so that characters and events should operate on the basis of the logic established within that universe. For example, if someone is stabbed through the heart and survives somehow in a show about superpowers, that is still very unrealistic within that universe despite the fact that superpowers don't exist in real life. |
What's the difference? |
Gohdhand said: flannan said: And I am saying the genre has nothing to do with realism. If you want realism, watch some other story about superpowers, like Darker than Black. By being realistic, they stop being shounen battle anime. There are shonen that are more or less realistic, though, like Hunter x Hunter. Obviously you can't have a shonen that is completely, 100% realistic, and that isn't what I am looking for anyway. I was talking about the extreme end of things where barely anybody dies and people are able to overcome obstacles through the power of friendship and things like that. I have not actually seen Hunter x Hunter, so I would not comment on it. But extreme end of idealism is the normal state for this genre. Because it its heart, the genre is propaganda of Japanese style of thinking. |
Gohdhand said: flannan said: And I am saying the genre has nothing to do with realism. If you want realism, watch some other story about superpowers, like Darker than Black. By being realistic, they stop being shounen battle anime. There are shonen that are more or less realistic, though, like Hunter x Hunter. Obviously you can't have a shonen that is completely, 100% realistic, and that isn't what I am looking for anyway. I was talking about the extreme end of things where barely anybody dies and people are able to overcome obstacles through the power of friendship and things like that. TheBrainintheJar said: Why do you seek realism in a show with superpowers and what does it mean? The fact that you brought up the show being about superpowers demonstrates that you didn't understand anything I've said so far. What I mean by "realism" is not "nobody should have superpowers because they don't exist in real life," but more so that characters and events should operate on the basis of the logic established within that universe. For example, if someone is stabbed through the heart and survives somehow in a show about superpowers, that is still very unrealistic within that universe despite the fact that superpowers don't exist in real life. What if the series' logic is that such stab wounds aren't so serious? |
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| I believe this thread needs to be turned down dude at least say it contains spoilers. sorry I haven't read the whole thread my bad. |
RaizelApr 20, 2017 3:08 AM
Raizel said: I believe this thread needs to be turned down dude at least say it contains spoilers. sorry I haven't read the whole thread my bad. That's a thread about death. Of course anything we say is a spoiler! |
TheBrainintheJar said: What if the series' logic is that such stab wounds aren't so serious? If they establish that as one of the laws of the universe of that series and they give a reasonable explanation for it, then I wouldn't consider it unrealistic. |
What's the difference? |
Paul said: lol that would make an interesting manga. It would kinda be like Dangan Ronpa. WAIT DANGAN RONPA IS SHOUNEN TOO and loads die there lol.Yea, I was pretty disappointed when no one died in Shokugeki no Soma, I mean there's a battle like every other episode. |
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ZeroAikatsu99 said: HxH and JoJo are different. Also Gintama even killing literally the funniest character in the anime with a really damn cruel out of nowhere death. Dont make me mention others death in Gintama. I'm sad that Gintama isn't taken into account by anyone else, but you have to admit that Gintoki, Shinpachi, and the rest survived a bunch of situations they probably shouldn't have had "realism" been applied. On the other hand, deaths in Gintama are super impactful when not used for comedy because some interesting characters that show up for more than one arc in the show, some characters you thought were comedy reliefs, died. Also, Gintama has a tendency to make you sympathize with the villain before they die. |
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Gohdhand said: TheBrainintheJar said: What if the series' logic is that such stab wounds aren't so serious? If they establish that as one of the laws of the universe of that series and they give a reasonable explanation for it, then I wouldn't consider it unrealistic. Once again. There is only one explanation for everything in shounen. It is an idealistic world where willpower beats physics, biology and medicine. |
Gohdhand said: TheBrainintheJar said: What if the series' logic is that such stab wounds aren't so serious? If they establish that as one of the laws of the universe of that series and they give a reasonable explanation for it, then I wouldn't consider it unrealistic. Why you need a reasonable explanation for it? Remember the author creates the world ex nihilio. He decides what the rules are, and the rules are what they are because he decides. He doesn't need to explain the physics of anything since there is no physics. |
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SkyFullOfStars said: ZeroAikatsu99 said: HxH and JoJo are different. Also Gintama even killing literally the funniest character in the anime with a really damn cruel out of nowhere death. Dont make me mention others death in Gintama. I'm sad that Gintama isn't taken into account by anyone else, but you have to admit that Gintoki, Shinpachi, and the rest survived a bunch of situations they probably shouldn't have had "realism" been applied. On the other hand, deaths in Gintama are super impactful when not used for comedy because some interesting characters that show up for more than one arc in the show, some characters you thought were comedy reliefs, died. Also, Gintama has a tendency to make you sympathize with the villain before they die. Just like Fairy Tail. Just like Naruto. Just like Hunter x Hunter. Just like every other battle shounen, because it's a lame and common trope in the genre. Sorachi knows that and that's why he uses it in almost every serious arc of Gintama to make it as corny and generic as possible. |
| Again it depends on the anime and the genre with shounen... it is false to make such a sweeping statement |
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| Some of them have death though, Hunter x Hunter and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure for example |
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zumac said: SkyFullOfStars said: I'm sad that Gintama isn't taken into account by anyone else, but you have to admit that Gintoki, Shinpachi, and the rest survived a bunch of situations they probably shouldn't have had "realism" been applied. On the other hand, deaths in Gintama are super impactful when not used for comedy because some interesting characters that show up for more than one arc in the show, some characters you thought were comedy reliefs, died. Also, Gintama has a tendency to make you sympathize with the villain before they die. Just like Fairy Tail. Just like Naruto. Just like Hunter x Hunter. Just like every other battle shounen, because it's a lame and common trope in the genre. Sorachi knows that and that's why he uses it in almost every serious arc of Gintama to make it as corny and generic as possible. I kind of wish more anime would try to horrify with an unsympathetic villain, and make us sympathize with that. We'll see someone with no redeeming qualities and think, 'o shit! I understand him!'. |
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flannan said: Once again. There is only one explanation for everything in shounen. It is an idealistic world where willpower beats physics, biology and medicine. And I already told you that this isn't true. Not every shonen is like Fairy Tail, and not every little thing in a shonen needs to be perfectly realistic. TheBrainintheJar said: Why you need a reasonable explanation for it? Remember the author creates the world ex nihilio. He decides what the rules are, and the rules are what they are because he decides. He doesn't need to explain the physics of anything since there is no physics. Uh, what? There is physics in shonen anime... Also, you are right in that the author can decide what the rules are, but if he doesn't give a good explanation for them, then it's not a good work of fiction. I guess it could still be realistic in the strictest sense of the word, though. |
What's the difference? |
Omanko_Kusasugix said: TheBrainintheJar said: I kind of wish more anime would try to horrify with an unsympathetic villain, and make us sympathize with that. We'll see someone with no redeeming qualities and think, 'o shit! I understand him!'. i doubt that's possible unless you're kind of a psychopathic person. there are villains who are outright bad but somehow liked by people though, but being likable as an anime character is one thing, being understandable is quite another. I think the main villain of SAO "Fairy Dance" arc, Sugou Nobuyuki, fits the bill. His motivations are totally understandable - he wants money, he wants the girl, he wants to be in control. But he is thoroughly unsympathetic, because he actually acts on these desires without concern for anybody's well-being, except his own. Also, some people claim to like him. I think they're just being trolls, though. |
Gohdhand said: flannan said: Once again. There is only one explanation for everything in shounen. It is an idealistic world where willpower beats physics, biology and medicine. And I already told you that this isn't true. Not every shonen is like Fairy Tail, and not every little thing in a shonen needs to be perfectly realistic. TheBrainintheJar said: Why you need a reasonable explanation for it? Remember the author creates the world ex nihilio. He decides what the rules are, and the rules are what they are because he decides. He doesn't need to explain the physics of anything since there is no physics. Uh, what? There is physics in shonen anime... Also, you are right in that the author can decide what the rules are, but if he doesn't give a good explanation for them, then it's not a good work of fiction. I guess it could still be realistic in the strictest sense of the word, though. There is no physics in shounen anime. In order for there to be physics, you need to be a physical object. Naruto isn't a physical thing in the world. It is a concept in your head, constructed by light shot at your eyes from your screen. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: There is no physics in shounen anime. In order for there to be physics, you need to be a physical object. Naruto isn't a physical thing in the world. It is a concept in your head, constructed by light shot at your eyes from your screen. I can't tell if you're trying to make a (unfunny) joke or you're trolling... Obviously I don't mean literal physics, but within the Naruto world, there is physics. If Naruto jumps, gravity is going to bring him back down eventually. |
What's the difference? |
Gohdhand said: TheBrainintheJar said: There is no physics in shounen anime. In order for there to be physics, you need to be a physical object. Naruto isn't a physical thing in the world. It is a concept in your head, constructed by light shot at your eyes from your screen. I can't tell if you're trying to make a (unfunny) joke or you're trolling... Obviously I don't mean literal physics, but within the Naruto world, there is physics. If Naruto jumps, gravity is going to bring him back down eventually. There is no physics because it is not a physical world. You cannot measure ANYTHING there. Trying to would lead to cognitive dissonance. This is my whole point - fiction is non-physical and only symbolic. Nothing prevents me from writing a story about a world without gravity. I don't have to explain how it works because it doesn't exist. The only question is what it means. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Gohdhand said: TheBrainintheJar said: There is no physics in shounen anime. In order for there to be physics, you need to be a physical object. Naruto isn't a physical thing in the world. It is a concept in your head, constructed by light shot at your eyes from your screen. I can't tell if you're trying to make a (unfunny) joke or you're trolling... Obviously I don't mean literal physics, but within the Naruto world, there is physics. If Naruto jumps, gravity is going to bring him back down eventually. Or he does a flashback to the time when he learned to fly, and flies away. @TheBrainintheJar is stuck in the "meta" perspective badly. It's pretty much impossible to discuss the way different layers of a work interact with each other with him. |
TheBrainintheJar said: There is no physics because it is not a physical world. You cannot measure ANYTHING there. Trying to would lead to cognitive dissonance. This is my whole point - fiction is non-physical and only symbolic. I can't understand what you're trying to say here, honestly. Physics does exist in fiction, as shown by my example. Disprove that example if you really think there is no such thing as physics within fiction. Nothing prevents me from writing a story about a world without gravity. I don't have to explain how it works because it doesn't exist. The only question is what it means. You don't have to explain how it works, but you should. Fiction is written by humans and is meant for humans, and therefore, we are going to expect the laws within a fictional universe to work like the laws in the real universe unless the author specifically tells us that they don't work the same way. |
What's the difference? |
| They kill plenty of side people so the sadsturbators still get their fix. |
| Man, I have to stop falling in love with fictitious high school girls'...moms! |
Gohdhand said: TheBrainintheJar said: There is no physics because it is not a physical world. You cannot measure ANYTHING there. Trying to would lead to cognitive dissonance. This is my whole point - fiction is non-physical and only symbolic. I can't understand what you're trying to say here, honestly. Physics does exist in fiction, as shown by my example. Disprove that example if you really think there is no such thing as physics within fiction. Nothing prevents me from writing a story about a world without gravity. I don't have to explain how it works because it doesn't exist. The only question is what it means. You don't have to explain how it works, but you should. Fiction is written by humans and is meant for humans, and therefore, we are going to expect the laws within a fictional universe to work like the laws in the real universe unless the author specifically tells us that they don't work the same way. Again, physical laws don't exist since fiction isn't physical phenomena. Naruto doesn't exist as a physical entity you can absorb through all senses. Why should I expect the laws of fiction to be like the laws of the universe? Fiction is an expression of one's inner world. It is not a scientific observation. flannan said: Gohdhand said: I can't tell if you're trying to make a (unfunny) joke or you're trolling... Obviously I don't mean literal physics, but within the Naruto world, there is physics. If Naruto jumps, gravity is going to bring him back down eventually. Or he does a flashback to the time when he learned to fly, and flies away. @TheBrainintheJar is stuck in the "meta" perspective badly. It's pretty much impossible to discuss the way different layers of a work interact with each other with him. Maybe because I try to cut off the trivial stuff, like the exact height of Naruto and think what's really meaningful - whether Naruto is considered tall or not and what it means. |
TheBrainintheJarApr 24, 2017 12:49 PM
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