Yuru Camp vs K-On

Tristar_Shinobi said:
Both are bad and this thread doesn't follow some x vs y rule.

Cubikx said:
You haven't even watched the shows, shut up mate.

Rudolfpikel said:
I love Yuru Camp, so it hurts me inside to compare them, but K-On! is definitely better.

No K-On! definitely did shape the genre. I think you're conflating kickstarting and shaping. Sure Azumanga Daioh predated it by almost a decade, and it was Haruhi and Lucky Star that started the so-called "moe revolution" of the 2000s but through its massive popularity K-On! defined what was the peak of CGDCT and so it became the subject of massive amounts of imitation either inspired by the series or aiming to replicate its financial success and by doing this K-On! shifted the landscape of the genre in a short time period to produce K-On!-esque content rather than the Hidamari Sketches and Lucky Stars that were at the top of the genre only a couple of years prior.

jal90 said:
I haven't watched the second season of K-On! and in a 1:1 comparison between first seasons Yuru Camp is far above. Not to say that the former can't compete once I get to the 2nd season, but right now it's not remotely the case.

Also, to people saying that K-On! shaped the genre... no? It came years late for that and everything was invented by then. The genre bloomed during the 00s and most of its tropes existed already by the time this show first aired. I think you are mistaking popularity and presence in the collective consciousness with actual innovation in the formula.

vincentko said:


Go watch the K-On! second season now then. I think K-On! is much popular and memorable with its casts and the theme that it brings throughout its second season. It's the execution of its theme that make K-ON! remarkable to nowadays. Compare this to Yuru Camp the overall comparison is not even close. Yuru Camp is just about group of girls do camping to different places and relaxing. It's original but it's just very simple. I still enjoy Yuru Camp for its relaxing atmosphere.

Rudolfpikel said:


I think I get what you're trying to say, but the terminology you're using isn't correct. The word shape means to "develop in a particular way; progress" none of this implies being an innovator or the creation of anything. You can shape a genre without creating any new tropes and even while being extremely derivative of other media. K-On! may not have created most if any of the tropes it employs, but it did find the perfect combination and implementation of these tropes that appealed and resonated with the audience of its time. Its success and popularity pushed the majority of new series in the genre to attempt to emulate that combination and implementation of ideas and tropes that lead to K-On!'s massive cultural status. That is shaping a genre. There wasn't a general trend pushing in this direction as I mentioned; shows like Lucky Star and Hidamari Sketch were significantly different despite only predating K-On! by a year or two. K-On! came out, and it was no coincidence that a generation of imitators spawned immediately afterward. By creating these imitators, setting a standard or an objective for CGDGT K-On! caused the genre to develop and progress in a way it otherwise may not have. That is shaping a genre. Nothing is original. The tropes in anything can almost certainly be traced back to something that existed prior. Manabi Strait and Lucky Star are almost certainly as derivative as K-On! is. That doesn't matter; however, what matters is whether a piece of media can take those tropes and present them in a way that successfully connects with an intended audience. K-On! did that perhaps more successfully than any of its predecessors, and that's why it holds such presence in the medium's cultural history where its predecessors may not. Also, just a side note but most of the tropes you listed are super broad or odd, not exactly the best way to push your point. I mean, "KyoAni touch" just isn't a trope as a studio's reputation or critical acclaim just isn't a trope, and I'm not even sure what "Moe personality cult" is supposed to mean.

Rudolfpikel said:


What I meant when I said your tropes were too broad to really serve as good evidence for your points is that stuff like what you dub the "Moe personality cult" is so widely applicable that every CGDCT show from the last couple of decades could be considered unoriginal or derivative for having used it whereas if you went more specific tropes, it might have been harder to argue against your general point. As for the "KyoAni touch," at least from what I've always understood, tropes are more of a writing concept like common scenarios and archetypal characters. I'm pretty sure visual elements like expressive character animation aren't what one considers a trope, kind of like how you wouldn't consider a type of cinematography a trope.

I do think there are more CGDCT series and films in the 2010s than in the 2000s though that's mainly just because of a general increase in the production of anime a season in the previous decade. In terms of success, I also feel like just because of the medium's, and thus the genre growth, there probably are more successful CGDCT in the 2010s as well, at least if you're looking at financially. If you're talking about critical success, that's overall debatable and largely subjective, and in terms of cultural relevance, I would probably agree that the 2000s produced more memorable CGDCT, but I also think someone could reasonably disagree with that point. I do agree that many of the notable CGDCT series from the 2000s are criminally overlooked, most likely just due to recency bias, but while I don't think those series should be overlooked or undervalued, I also think that K-On! shouldn't be revoked of its genuine importance and relevance in the history of the genre as a way of combating that problem. I don't disagree that the importance of series like K-On! is maybe somewhat overexaggerated by the general community, but I kind of feel like at least your original one or two posts were an opposite extremity that I also disagree with.

In terms of Manabi Straight, it has been something that I've been vaguely aware of for a while, and I do plan on getting to it eventually, if only to see how ufotable as a studio has evolved since 2007. I appreciate the recommendation, though. I also appreciate how you've been willing to have such an extended conversation with me in a rather civil manner; it's not always something you can find in the MAL forums.

jal90 said:
In what sense did it shape the genre? After-school clubs? They were there already. Girls having fun with banter and daily nonsense? Already there. Focus on cuteness? Already there. Kirara adaptations? Already there. KyoAni touch? Already there. Moe personality cult? Already there. Mix of comedy and drama/tearjerking stuff? Already there. Heck, even the freaking climactic concert sequences were done before. Both in anime (Manabi Straight) and live action (Linda Linda Linda) and there's probably older examples.

K-On! is extremely relevant to the genre, but not for what it introduced in terms of tropes, that's what I mean. It's relevant because its popularity helped push the genre even further. And even then a bunch of older shows were also successful (Lucky Star from the same studio being a prime example). I understand that it had an influence, of course something so successful pushes the overall interest on the genre, but the 00s had a lot of CGDCT stuff. A lot. I don't know why people choose to sweepingly ignore half of this genre's history to make this sort of point.

Play2X said:
I found both great, but K-On a bit better. One of the reasons is that K-On is a finished product, while Yuru-Camp is still missing a conclusion (haven't watched Yuru 2 yet).

Kuxu said:

K-On is considered the anime that started the Moe Invasion.

Of course, that doesn't mean that it innovated each element. You could find those elements before, but K-On was the first anime to pack them all, wrap them in a full high quality product and create what could be considered the first modern slice of life moe anime. K-On formula was (and still is) cloned to death, because it simply nailed it.

It's the same debate that has been there for years about Matrix. Each element in that movie can be found in previous movies (and even in anime). But Matrix packed them all and shaped the genre. And the same can be said about Alien and scifi, or Star Wars and space opera.

Usually, it's not the movie or series that innovates some individual elements the ones that shapes the genre, but the one that gathers those innovations and manages to create a full product which combines them perfectly.

Scordolo said:
I think this video is enough to answer.