| Like I need some insight. I see people post online about these sakuga fight scenes in the current popular battle shonen and it is all just visual noise. Like jingling keys in front of a toddler to entertain them. How do any of you follow them? How do you get invested in the back and forth? Where is the good choreography? It makes me glad I only watch obscure anime for those with patrician taste and old anime. Like dayum sun we need to eat good ffs. |
  ♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
| I stopped watching battle shonens and combat anime in general a long time ago for this very good reason and nowadays only watch ecchi and 3D anime. |
Reply to tchitchouan
I stopped watching battle shonens and combat anime in general a long time ago for this very good reason and nowadays only watch ecchi and 3D anime.
| @tchitchouan Legit I predominantly watch tokusatsu and cartoons nowadays. I have alot of issues with anime currently so I am just waiting it out or watching older stuff lol. |
♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
| Yeah, the ones like in KnY, CSM, and Jjk. They're just throwing things around here and there. No harmony. |
Reply to Nette
@tchitchouan
Legit I predominantly watch tokusatsu and cartoons nowadays. I have alot of issues with anime currently so I am just waiting it out or watching older stuff lol.
Legit I predominantly watch tokusatsu and cartoons nowadays. I have alot of issues with anime currently so I am just waiting it out or watching older stuff lol.
| @_Nette_ My entertainment intake nowadays consists of 33% video games (action jrpgs) 33% anime (ecchi and hentai) 33% superhero cartoons (WB DC animation). I wouldn't be watching the superhero cartoons if the shonen anime fight scenes weren't so boring to watch. |
| 1. a lot of the fights are both flashy and well choreographed. The flashiness is not replacing the choreography. 2. You must have been living under a rock: And as much as I think demon slayer is just "good" you could pick any of the big action scenes from it as examples of great choreography . |
| Also available at: YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Second Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AshPolygonsDo/videos Twitter: https://x.com/APolygons2 Backloggd: https://backloggd.com/games/lib/rating?page=8 IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/user/ur107632777/?ref_=uspf_nv_profile |
| @APolygons2 no offense brother but if you're gonna pull out the "it's one of my favourite [insert element]" card like you did last time then i'm not gonna respond to you in these discussions. Probably ever again. |
| @APolygons2 Fine but first of all you might wanna delete the other comment. That's spam. |
Reply to TRC_Randy
@APolygons2 Fine but first of all you might wanna delete the other comment. That's spam.
| @TRC_Randy Ok come on its related to the topic and its one comment its not spam, but fine I'll delete it if its mere existance bothers you lol |
| Also available at: YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Second Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AshPolygonsDo/videos Twitter: https://x.com/APolygons2 Backloggd: https://backloggd.com/games/lib/rating?page=8 IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/user/ur107632777/?ref_=uspf_nv_profile |
| Too much TikTok rots the brain, so the anime industry tries to make anime fights flashier and flashier. I guess. |
| As @APolygons2 You've missed many fights which aren't like kny/jjk s2 which is probably the only stuff you've talking, as you're newest thing which I could notice in your list is JoJo p5 [speaking of visual noise...] here's a portion of fights you have missed, reserve some good time as you'll need, cause you've asked for fights you've slept on @_Nette_ : Also Battle Shounen... A slang which is not a genre, just watch Action. Not to mention that choreography is often used by filmmakers to explain the bs they create in their fights which have nothing to do with an actual fight creating the worst fighting myths which later martial artists have to debunk, yeah... choreaography is lacking, it is a fight not a dance floor.. [a real fight, especially the sword fight tend to end very quickly, that even the flashiest anime fights are too long] Since around 2019 there has been 1.2k or more titles with Action genre and each of them can have x number of very good fights, that's the very least number of shows you have slept on. |
ZettaikenMay 7, 2024 11:05 PM
| They are also so incredible boring that i have a hard time paying attention to what's actually happening most of the time. Avant-garde anime is an easier watch. |
 |
| Because Ufotable found out that colorful animation full of effects is more important than choreography. |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Perhaps, this is hell. |
| I honestly don't think they're that hard to follow for the most part. Season 2 of JJK had maybe one fight I had issues keeping up with and I've had basically no issues with My Hero or Demon Slayer. In fact I'd argue the fights are the best parts in the recent seasons. Especially with the last Demon Slayer season. Worst season so far imo, with the only redeeming thing being the fights for me. Undead Unluck also has pretty solid action scenes, as does Mob Psycho and though not "shounen" Bungou Stray Dogs and Vinland Saga. I could name others too. This is my whole thing and I think I'm eating fairly well lately. |
| & this is why i avoid modern popular battle shounen altogether!!! Im fine with battles as long as it has other elements!!! Preferably not the main element of the show in question!!! |
" Kindness can sometimes lead you to trouble. "  |
| "Why are modern anime fights so awful?" Blame the limited animation of shows like Hokuto No Ken, Dragon Ball and other stuff like Naruto being beloved by the fans. This is how the trend started. APolygons2 said: You must have been living under a rock The Mushoku Tensei and Beastars examples are quite trashy and nonsensical as the shows they are from...just don't bring those to the table. Zettaiken said: Also Battle Shounen... A slang which is not a genre, just watch Action. But battle shounen is a genre (shounen that specifically is about power levels, skill tree, combat systems, the fights being like duels...), but sadly its action sets the trend for the rest of the action in the non-battle shounen and seinen. |
alshuMay 7, 2024 11:54 PM
Reply to removed-user
When you say 'modern anime' what time period are we talking? Because there are good examples from the 2010s and 2020s.
| @Eleben Shot in the dark, but I'm going to assume the cutoff point is the 2000's. I don't usually see people who prefer the older stuff acknowledging anything past that as "good". Or at least as good as the stuff before. This would line up with around when Fate/Zero came out, which some might be inclined to say started the more flashy stuff. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. |
Reply to APolygons2
@TRC_Randy Ok come on its related to the topic and its one comment its not spam, but fine I'll delete it if its mere existance bothers you lol
| @APolygons2 bruh i meant the other one that was duplicated not the KnY one. Anyway, it seems that the kind of choreography that you, me and OP are talking about isn't just the sequence of movements that the fighting characters take but also other elements surrounding it and in KnY specifically with the 44 sec clip you posted, isn't good enough. How? One; there isn't much choreography tbw. There's just flicks of Tanjiro leaping towards Rui from one place to another, and Rui dodging his attacks. Two; the lighting is terrible. It's too fiery you can barely see the background so i don't actually get what you meant when you said KnY fights give you a sense of speed, direction, scale etc. Some better choreographed action scenes in anime that don't have these two problems would be like At 1:37 9:30 pay attention to the girl And on a much larger scale, the teleport fight in Mob Psycho 100 II or Genos vs Mosquito Girl in OPM s1. And more than just true choreography that isn't just run-of-the-mill maneuvers we see in anime you can also clearly see each and every move that the characters make unlike in KnY and other battle shounen anime. |
Reply to alshu
"Why are modern anime fights so awful?"
Blame the limited animation of shows like Hokuto No Ken, Dragon Ball and other stuff like Naruto being beloved by the fans. This is how the trend started.
The Mushoku Tensei and Beastars examples are quite trashy and nonsensical as the shows they are from...just don't bring those to the table.
But battle shounen is a genre (shounen that specifically is about power levels, skill tree, combat systems, the fights being like duels...), but sadly its action sets the trend for the rest of the action in the non-battle shounen and seinen.
Blame the limited animation of shows like Hokuto No Ken, Dragon Ball and other stuff like Naruto being beloved by the fans. This is how the trend started.
APolygons2 said:
You must have been living under a rock
You must have been living under a rock
The Mushoku Tensei and Beastars examples are quite trashy and nonsensical as the shows they are from...just don't bring those to the table.
Zettaiken said:
Also Battle Shounen... A slang which is not a genre, just watch Action.
Also Battle Shounen... A slang which is not a genre, just watch Action.
But battle shounen is a genre (shounen that specifically is about power levels, skill tree, combat systems, the fights being like duels...), but sadly its action sets the trend for the rest of the action in the non-battle shounen and seinen.
| @alshu Explain how, They aren't even using any power its just pure hand to hand/sword to sword. whats wrong with them? |
| Also available at: YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Second Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AshPolygonsDo/videos Twitter: https://x.com/APolygons2 Backloggd: https://backloggd.com/games/lib/rating?page=8 IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/user/ur107632777/?ref_=uspf_nv_profile |
APolygons2 said: They aren't even using any power its just pure hand to hand/sword to sword. They are done with the style and storyboarding of a typical battle shounen fight. APolygons2 said: whats wrong with them? Personally I don't like those two ;))). (Not to mention I always thought the studio Orange is overrated especially in comparison with some chinese 3D stuff.) By the way your Akudama Drive and Mob Pshyco examples are in the same style, but also are done very well, so they pass for me... |
| I don't see how this is more than nostalgia and remembering being more invested into fights as a kid than when you're an adult. Feel free to show some examples of old anime fight scenes, but I honestly don't understand what makes them better in any way. It's not like special effects and animations have just replaced choreography. You can appreciate the flashy scenes while still following what actually happens in the fight. If you personally don't like the style, just say so. This has nothing to do with them being bad. |
     |
Battle Shonen are popular because they're just fun and entertaining. And honestly, most people don't really care about choreography and stuff. _Nette_ said: It makes me glad I only watch obscure anime for those with patrician taste and old anime. Just because you're into obscure or old anime doesn't automatically mean you've got good taste. And it doesn't make you any smarter either. |
| I don't know about that, but the combat is not particularly realistic. |
  |
| It's been a mixed bag for me. - I liked some fights in Jujutsu Kaisen S1 but not others; some of them were hard to parse and just not pleasant to look at. - Chainsaw Man always had clarity and "crispness," even if choreography was often not very interesting and the direction lacked impact. - Demon Slayer fights were overall excellent, even if their style often felt "floaty." The choreography may not have been very elaborate, but the show always sold the movement, intensity and emotions. - One Punch Man S1 and Mob Psycho and S1-2 also had great fights. They had creativity, impact, drama and readability. - Solo Leveling fights had great movement and impact, but were totally lacking in context, emotions and creativity. I think many people are too focused on complex choreography and life-like animation. I believe that not all shows are about martial arts and techniques, so choreography can be kept simple while they up the effects and the storytelling within fights. Also, anime is drawn, so fights should not be restricted to 100% clarity and believable movements all the time; they should be allowed to harness the strengths of the medium. |
Reply to alshu
"Why are modern anime fights so awful?"
Blame the limited animation of shows like Hokuto No Ken, Dragon Ball and other stuff like Naruto being beloved by the fans. This is how the trend started.
The Mushoku Tensei and Beastars examples are quite trashy and nonsensical as the shows they are from...just don't bring those to the table.
But battle shounen is a genre (shounen that specifically is about power levels, skill tree, combat systems, the fights being like duels...), but sadly its action sets the trend for the rest of the action in the non-battle shounen and seinen.
Blame the limited animation of shows like Hokuto No Ken, Dragon Ball and other stuff like Naruto being beloved by the fans. This is how the trend started.
APolygons2 said:
You must have been living under a rock
You must have been living under a rock
The Mushoku Tensei and Beastars examples are quite trashy and nonsensical as the shows they are from...just don't bring those to the table.
Zettaiken said:
Also Battle Shounen... A slang which is not a genre, just watch Action.
Also Battle Shounen... A slang which is not a genre, just watch Action.
But battle shounen is a genre (shounen that specifically is about power levels, skill tree, combat systems, the fights being like duels...), but sadly its action sets the trend for the rest of the action in the non-battle shounen and seinen.
| @alshu Battle means a clash between organised armed forces, while in so called battle shounens it is mainly 1v1 which is a Duel. Shounen is a demographic. None of these make a genre, it is just an anime community slang. |
_Nette_ said: How do you get invested in the back and forth? I don't. I don't care that much about fight choreography when I watch a battle shounen. I do care about animation in general, I'm not the kind of guy who thinks that animation doesn't matter and only the writing does, I just don't care about animation during fights. |
NirinboMay 8, 2024 4:48 AM
_Nette_ said: Where is the good choreography? JJK S2E17 extended Bluray version. |
*kappa* |
| I guess it comes down to personal preference, there are definitely a lot of shitters when it comes to fight choreography especially within the top modern anime |
Zettaiken said: Battle means a clash between organised armed forces Merriam-Webster describes it as: 1 : to engage in combat between individuals or armed forces : to engage in battle : FIGHT 2 : to contend with full strength, vigor, skill, or resources : STRUGGLE Zettaiken said: Shounen is a demographic. Combining it with something else would make it a subset dedicated for this demographic. Zettaiken said: None of these make a genre Since what people call battle shounen follows certain rules - shounen that is focused on power levels, skill tree, combat systems and the fights being like duels you can totally call that a genre, since it's very distinctive and there are enough titles which can be classified as such. |
Reply to alshu
Zettaiken said:
Battle means a clash between organised armed forces
Battle means a clash between organised armed forces
Merriam-Webster describes it as:
1
: to engage in combat between individuals or armed forces : to engage in battle : FIGHT
2
: to contend with full strength, vigor, skill, or resources : STRUGGLE
Zettaiken said:
Shounen is a demographic.
Shounen is a demographic.
Combining it with something else would make it a subset dedicated for this demographic.
Zettaiken said:
None of these make a genre
None of these make a genre
Since what people call battle shounen follows certain rules - shounen that is focused on power levels, skill tree, combat systems and the fights being like duels you can totally call that a genre, since it's very distinctive and there are enough titles which can be classified as such.
| @alshu Cambridge Dictionary - a fight between armed forces: the Battle of the Somme Her only brother was killed in battle (= while fighting). And if you translate Battle for example into French, Polish, Russian and perhaps other languges says the exact same as above, there's not a single thing about duels. Japanese seems to be the same as above. Seems like only in America you use it in terms of duels which is wrong. Genre has to be defined by something specifc so let's check: Power levels exist outside that slang term as it exist in fantasy titles to define how powerful are spells or mages Skill Tree - That's literally RPG gaming, it is in Fantasy mainly, these action titles don't even have such a thing as skill tree which is more a thing for Isekai theme Combat System - That's made up by you, as such term doesn't exist outside a military merch site or some gaming stuff, there are stuff called as Martial Arts or Tactics/Strategy which defines in Action or/and sports anime. Fights like Duel - That is also a thing for majority of action titles no matter if it's Shounen or Seinen... So nothing you've mentioned is unique enough to make it as a separate genre. Combinations don't make a new genre too, otherwise we would have unlimited amount of genres in anime, music, movies as each combination would make another genre. |
| I think fights are very good in modern anime, you just might be looking at the wrong places overall I think fights are better than they used to be, there are more insanely well animated fights per season than a decade ago, or even just 5 years ago |
| A good fight scene is where you can follow the intricate motions of the characters. All that flashy nonsense just hides the important stuff, and ufotable on tops of that has this style where the characters are just floating in front of a background, like in those old movies where they projected the landscape behind the car... |
Zettaiken said: Cambridge Dictionary - ...aaand you took only one of the meanings from it. Zettaiken said: And if you translate Battle for example into French, Polish, Russian and perhaps other languges says the exact same as above That would make those languages quite poor in comparison to english which has several meanings behind that word...so I don't think so. Zettaiken said: Seems like only in America you use it in terms of duels which is wrong. Wut? Read the rest of the article in the Cambridge Dictionary, read the one in the Oxford Dictionary too. the whole ones, with all the different meanings and examples... Zettaiken said: Power levels exist outside that slang term Of course they exist. What's your point? For example steam and punks exists outside of the steampunk genre...also said genre is not the literal combination of only those two, but much more. Or maybe things like steampunk, dieselpunk, cyberpunk and gaslamp fantasy are slang to you too? Zettaiken said: So nothing you've mentioned is unique enough to make it as a separate genre. How about the concatenation of all of those from the list plus shounen? Zettaiken said: Combinations don't make a new genre too Yey for limiting the meaning of the word genre too (which is "a style or category of"?), tho none of the elements in said list is a genre. OK, call it slang, call it subgenre if you will, whatever...just know that there are many people who disagree with you. |
| because animators today lack talent for action and they just go the easy way of drawing random lights and movement that means nothing overall but hey, it looks cool for most people. Another thing is that viewers today don't care about action as long as it has lots of movement and a dramatic OST, so if you're an animator why invest more in your skill if viewers don't care, right? I have no idea why people here posted random shitty fights from their favorite anime but ok, I don't think nette asked for that garbage, imagine being so lame that you come to a discussion thread and you promote your trashy unrelated anime for all to see but what can I expect from these fans... literally nothing. |
    |
Reply to alshu
Zettaiken said:
Cambridge Dictionary -
Cambridge Dictionary -
...aaand you took only one of the meanings from it.
Zettaiken said:
And if you translate Battle for example into French, Polish, Russian and perhaps other languges says the exact same as above
And if you translate Battle for example into French, Polish, Russian and perhaps other languges says the exact same as above
That would make those languages quite poor in comparison to english which has several meanings behind that word...so I don't think so.
Zettaiken said:
Seems like only in America you use it in terms of duels which is wrong.
Seems like only in America you use it in terms of duels which is wrong.
Wut? Read the rest of the article in the Cambridge Dictionary, read the one in the Oxford Dictionary too. the whole ones, with all the different meanings and examples...
Zettaiken said:
Power levels exist outside that slang term
Power levels exist outside that slang term
Of course they exist. What's your point? For example steam and punks exists outside of the steampunk genre...also said genre is not the literal combination of only those two, but much more.
Or maybe things like steampunk, dieselpunk, cyberpunk and gaslamp fantasy are slang to you too?
Zettaiken said:
So nothing you've mentioned is unique enough to make it as a separate genre.
So nothing you've mentioned is unique enough to make it as a separate genre.
How about the concatenation of all of those from the list plus shounen?
Zettaiken said:
Combinations don't make a new genre too
Combinations don't make a new genre too
Yey for limiting the meaning of the word genre too (which is "a style or category of"?), tho none of the elements in said list is a genre.
OK, call it slang, call it subgenre if you will, whatever...just know that there are many people who disagree with you.
| @alshu I am aware that many will disagree with me [which is something I am used to already] and I have nothing to do that, oh my bad, I am not that familiar with those Brittish/American dictionaries so didn't notice that below are extended stuff my bad. Although in defence of that statement the English word Battle comes from Old French which meaning you have in my previous comment and it comes from Latin which surprisingly it's meaning was Gladiator's Training. The existence or not, a genre by definition need to have something unique for it's own, cyberpunk is a sub-genre, which is a subdivision of Sci-Fi genre. Steampunk too, Dieselpunk too, and gaslamp fantasy that one is quite tough as it is subdivision of Steampunk so it should be included as a theme not a subgenre not to speak about genre. If "battle shounen" would become a sub-genre of Action genre, than I wouldn't have any problem with it, same goes for Isekai to become a subgenre of Fantasy or Mecha as subgenre of Sci-Fi. Which is also why I consider it as a slang, I wouldn't mind for it to become a subgenre, but there is no significant unique style or idea for it to become a genre itself. |
| Not sure if it has to do with anime being modern or not but I felt this with JJK S2. It was mostly just flashy, all style no substance, and not much style either actually. I don't watch modern anime much but Demonslayer, Chainsawman and One punch man (does 2015 still count as modern lol) had alright choreographies. JJK S2 was like dangling keys tho. |
Reply to Rinar
Not sure if it has to do with anime being modern or not but I felt this with JJK S2. It was mostly just flashy, all style no substance, and not much style either actually. I don't watch modern anime much but Demonslayer, Chainsawman and One punch man (does 2015 still count as modern lol) had alright choreographies. JJK S2 was like dangling keys tho.
| @Rinar I kinda get that even though I said I actually liked the fights in S2. There's only one fight imo that really fits that tho, more so than the others. Well, I guess actually two if I remember right. And that's the Sukuna fights. |
Reply to Rinar
Not sure if it has to do with anime being modern or not but I felt this with JJK S2. It was mostly just flashy, all style no substance, and not much style either actually. I don't watch modern anime much but Demonslayer, Chainsawman and One punch man (does 2015 still count as modern lol) had alright choreographies. JJK S2 was like dangling keys tho.
| @Rinar @FanofAction JJK S2 is interesting to me. It has so many fights, and some are pretty well choreographed, others not so much. This was this one fight against a bald guy who can reverse damage, and that fight just felt so weird and slow and strangely directed. I always thought its an anime problem until I went back to read the manga and realized the manga was like that too. Just too much talking and inconsistent fighting. I don't the blame the anime fight for looking like that since its a direct adaptation of the manga On the other hand, JJKS2 have the tendency to add anime-only fights, and thats where it is really hit or miss. Mahoraga fight before blue-ray was a disaster with 0 choreography. Some parts in Mahito vs Itadori too. Ino vs the grandson fight. They just have so many weird angles and close ups which makes the fight really difficult to process. The main problem with JJKS2's fights is the connection. Some times it feels like they animated different fights and just decide to piece them together without any sort of transition. They are at one place in one scene, and then a different place in another. |
Itsuki >  |
| I don't know if that's the reason, but fight scenes aren't nearly as cool/interesting to me as I once found them to be. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
| @Zimmu Thank you. I brought up the Sukuna fights in general, but The Mahoraga fight was the main one I was thinking of that I had issues with. Looking back on it, I can see why someone would have had issues with how the season as a whole handled fights, I guess it just didn't bother me that much personally. |
| Wtf is choreography at this point. Just because a lot of the fights these days have cool effects and awesome colours doesn't mean that they have bad choreography. The only problem I had was with Jjk S2 later fights cause it was inconsistent and hard to follow. Otherwise most popular shonen these days have amazing choreography and they are stunning to look at. |
If you enjoyed the time you wasted, then its not a waste of time.  |
| were anime fight scenes ever good to begin with? Guys standing around grunting about their power levels for six episodes back to back. Exciting stuff... |
 |
Reply to APolygons2
1. a lot of the fights are both flashy and well choreographed. The flashiness is not replacing the choreography.
2. You must have been living under a rock:
And as much as I think demon slayer is just "good" you could pick any of the big action scenes from it as examples of great choreography .
2. You must have been living under a rock:
And as much as I think demon slayer is just "good" you could pick any of the big action scenes from it as examples of great choreography .
| @APolygons2 half of these are bad bro. |
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