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| Sad story. I feel sry for Kiritsugu and the girl |
| 1. Already liking sherlly. She's quite calm & fun. Why her? :( 2. Kiritsugu's backstory… now it all makes sense 9/10 |
souledge94 said: ouch put in the little brother zone.Man shirely you should have really thought this through.Since from what we saw she wasint forced to drink it or anything.wow he sure killed his pops pretty fast without hesitation which is kinda weird since it didint seem like he hated his father or anything.I know he was mad about shirely but still I expected this attitude to appear after the island event. Yup, Kiritsugu loved his father and his father loved him. It's just Kiritsugu could have prevented all of this and saved so many people if he had just killed one person, even if it was someone he loved. So to not make the same mistake again, as he did with Shirley, he killed his father. |
C-Core said: souledge94 said: ouch put in the little brother zone.Man shirely you should have really thought this through.Since from what we saw she wasint forced to drink it or anything.wow he sure killed his pops pretty fast without hesitation which is kinda weird since it didint seem like he hated his father or anything.I know he was mad about shirely but still I expected this attitude to appear after the island event. Yup, Kiritsugu loved his father and his father loved him. It's just Kiritsugu could have prevented all of this and saved so many people if he had just killed one person, even if it was someone he loved. So to not make the same mistake again, as he did with Shirley, he killed his father. ^this Its essentially where the ideal that Shirou got from Kerry is warped. Kerry is realizing he can't save everyone and he resolves it by deciding to kill few for the benefit of the many - a hypocrisy in of itself, but the only way Kerry managed to reconcile his belief with the gross reality he faced. . |
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| Kiritsugu went through a lot. I now understand a bit about his beliefs. Now if they were to show how he met Maiya and such in the later episodes, that would be great. |
| This felt a little underdeveloped, maybe due to time constraints things were cut out? Lacked emotional impact compared to the other episodes, Kerry and Shirley's relationship should have been built more to make Kerry's decision to kill his father more convincing. Guess its in the Emiya bloodline to be cold-hearted, Shirou was lucky that he was adopted xD |
AozureAug 24, 2014 12:59 PM
| I don't buy it. For a child to brutally murder his father in such way and to have to have such confidence in unknown foreigner, that's something unheard of. It's not like his father betrayed him or didn't love him, Kerry clearly KNEW it was HER fault that she took that unfinished substance. So there was no real motive to do that and it only happened as shocker, while whole situation felt forced. Need to shock, that's another flaw of Urobuchi writing when he uses it as plot device or as explanation for character's motivation. Not to mention they used zombie-like vampires (Dead Apostoles) theme for his story, I mean, why? I know they exists in Nasuverse but in context of Zero story, couldn't they think of something more believable? And why would they halt whole series for two episode backstory when there were characters that would benefit from more screentime I don't know. In comparison with excellent Rin episode this could easily be just OVA. I liked how Kajiura resused some part of her Noir OST for village theme but the ending melody on the other hand was ripoff her earlier works. 2thuriel said: Kerry-Irino, Miyu-Zwei Shirley-Takagaki, Ayahi-Ein Natalia-Watanabe, Akeno-Lizzie Noritaka-Chiba, Isshin-Scythe A nice contribute to phantom. Nice list! Whole the time I thought they are somehow familiar :) |
| Kerry's father was experimenting with pills/potion that was supposed to make him a DA.Human test WOULD come.That is why Kerry did that. I dont see how DA's are less believable than Servants or magical dickworms.Especially when a DA(Well Dead Apostle Ancestor to be exact) was "overseeing" the creation of the HG system. F Zis about Kirei and Kerry tho.Unlike Kirei Kiritsugu had very small exposition. |
ssjokg said: Kerry's father was experimenting with pills/potion that was supposed to make him a DA.Human test WOULD come.That is why Kerry did that. The thing is I don't believe he was in situation when he could think so logically about the future and he should realize it was an accident. It's not like his father wanted that to happen. For me, this was like unwarranted 180 degree flip, it would meant he is actually worse than Kotomine who had doubts for a long time. What monster was he to actually kill his father? This was really too extreme. It's not like his father didn't care for him. As matter of that, his decision felt very unrealistic. I mean, why couldn't they just go with him bringing his father to Natalia while SHE would do the actual killing. Or catch him for the Sealing? The impact would be the same (if not better). Whole scene felt like it was made just for the sole purpose of his first kill. ssjokg said: I dont see how DA's are less believable than Servants or magical dickworms.Especially when a DA(Well Dead Apostle Ancestor to be exact) was "overseeing" the creation of the HG system. Yes, and Kotomine was hunting Dead Apostles with Bazett before, I know, and I don't question their existence. But even that, it was just something existing far, far away from actual story and it was only mentioned there. In context of Fate it's like blending two themes together and maybe it's just me, but whole this "zombie apocalypse" felt somehow out of place (I don't even want to start about how those agents got there so quickly just in time when they were located on remote isolated island in Phillipines). Wouldn't it be a lot better to have only Shirley on the run, not whole city and to have one dedicated hunter, not dozen? ssjokg said: F/Z is about Kirei and Kerry tho.Unlike Kirei Kiritsugu had very small exposition. I know and that's why I was saying few episodes back how cool it would be if they actually did flashback episode with Irisviel and Kiritsugu instead of mere Drama CD. Because it was this Drama that made me finally understand who Kiritsugu really was and what relationship he had with her. This unaired bonus made me actually understand him more than anything that was told in anime. Contrary to that, this episode only served as his background (to appease novel readers) but it actually added nothing to actual story. His past could have been revealed in much more efficient way during short flashback if Tohsaka had actually got some documents detailing his past. Or he could have some conversation with Iris. |
Mich666Aug 31, 2014 3:22 PM
Mich666 said: ssjokg said: Kerry's father was experimenting with pills/potion that was supposed to make him a DA.Human test WOULD come.That is why Kerry did that. The thing is I don't believe he was in situation when he could think so logically to think so logically about the future and he should realize it was an accident. It's not like his father wanted that to happen. For me, this was like unwarranted 180 degree flip, it would meant he is actually worse than Kotomine who had doubts for a long time. What monster was he to actually kill his father? This was really too extreme. It's not like his father didn't care for him. As matter of that, his decision felt very unrealistic. I mean, why couldn't they just go with him bringing his father to Natalia while SHE would do the actual killing. Or catch him for the Sealing? The impact would be the same (if not better). Whole scene felt like it was made just for the sole purpose of his first kill. This scene actually shows that something is seriously wrong with Kiritsugu that he can separate what his heart feels from what his rational head thinks. Kiritsugu wanted to talk with his father first, to see whether Norikata would try becoming immortal again and Kiritsugu then decided to kill his father because such a disaster could have happened again. However, Kiritsugu wanted to be a champion of justice who saves everyone, yet he didn't want to make the same mistake again because he refused to kill someone he loves, which led to the death of many more people, so he personally attacked his father with the knife he was supposed to use to kill Shirley. Mich666 said: ssjokg said: I dont see how DA's are less believable than Servants or magical dickworms.Especially when a DA(Well Dead Apostle Ancestor to be exact) was "overseeing" the creation of the HG system. Yes, and Kotomine was hunting Dead Apostles with Bazett before, I know, and I don't question their existence. But even that, it was just something existing far, far away from actual story and it was only mentioned there. In context of Fate it's like blending two themes together and maybe it's just me, but whole this "zombie apocalypse" felt somehow out of place (I don't even want to start about how those agents got there so quickly just in time when they were located on remote isolated island in Phillipines). Wouldn't it be a lot better to have only Shirley on the run, not whole city and to have one dedicated hunter, not dozen? The Enforcers actually came so quickly because they already found Norikata. Norikata got his Sealing Designation twenty years before his death. Shirley drinking the potion was a lucky coincidence, as it served as a distraction. Also, Dead Apostles are inevitably linked to immortality and that is what Norikata wanted for his time research to reach Akasha. If he cannot achieve true immortality, which means no downsides like blood to sustain oneself and the impulse to drink blood, it's a failure and will lead to becoming a "regular" Dead Apostle. The Dead Apostles' Curse of Restoration is time based. The Emiya family researched time magecraft. Akasha research -> Time magecraft -> Immortality -> Dead Apostle. Dead Apostles are really making lots of sense here. Mich666 said: ssjokg said: F/Z is about Kirei and Kerry tho.Unlike Kirei Kiritsugu had very small exposition. I know and that's why I was saying few episodes back how cool it would be if they actually did flashback episode with Irisviel and Kiritsugu instead of mere Drama CD. Because it was this Drama that made me finally understand who Kiritsugu really was and what relationship he had with her. This unaired bonus made me actually understand him more than anything that was told in anime. Contrary to that, this episode only served as his background (to appease novel readers) but it actually added nothing to actual story. His past could have been revealed in much more efficient way during short flashback if Tohsaka had actually got some documents detailing his past. Or he could have some conversation with Iris. I would say the flashback does serve its purpose as several viewers seemed to understand Kiritsugu better, though I find it to be misplaced. It would have fit better, if they had shown the flashback right after Saber's not-conversation with Kiritsugu, when she concluded that he wanted to become a champion of justice in the past. |
CapsuleCoreAug 31, 2014 4:15 PM
C-Core said: This scene actually shows that something is seriously wrong with Kiritsugu that he can separate what his heart feels from what his rational head thinks. Kiritsugu wanted to talk with his father first, to see whether Norikata would try that again and Kiritsugu decided to kill his father because he wants to be a champion of justice and didn't want to make the same mistake again because he refused to kill someone he loves and that led to the death of many more people. If the purpose of that scene was to show his twisted thinking, then be it. But it also means he was evil and unscrupulous from the start as this was no act of madness, this was well-considered murder. But in doing so he also denies him the chance to attone for his sins. Suddenly I find Kotomine more human than him. C-Core said: I would say the flashback does serve its purpose as several viewers seemed to understand Kiritsugu better, though I find it to be misplaced. It would have fit better, if they had shown the flashback right after Saber's not-conversation with Kiritsugu, when she concluded that he wanted to become a champion of justice in the past. You are right, that would fit the flow a lot better. Still, I am not fully convinced this should get 2 eps coverage as many other characters were blatanty undeveloped. It's not like this episode explained us why Kiritsugu is fighting this war. It only showed us he is hypocrite in his wish. |
Mich666 said: C-Core said: This scene actually shows that something is seriously wrong with Kiritsugu that he can separate what his heart feels from what his rational head thinks. Kiritsugu wanted to talk with his father first, to see whether Norikata would try that again and Kiritsugu decided to kill his father because he wants to be a champion of justice and didn't want to make the same mistake again because he refused to kill someone he loves and that led to the death of many more people. If the purpose of that scene was to show his twisted thinking, then be it. But it also means he was evil and unscrupulous from the start as this was no act of madness, this was well-considered murder. But in doing so he also denies him the chance to attone for his sins. Suddenly I find Kotomine more human than him. And so would I, honestly. There is after all a reason why Kirei was so pissed at Kiritsugu, as he revealed to Shirou in HF. Anyway, that is Kiritsugu's concept of "justice". If he can't save everyone, he will save as many as possible and he would go so far to murder people if it reduces the damage in his opinion. That is how his "kill one to save many" philosophy came to be. While Archer did this too, he never whole-heartedly accepted this unlike Kiritsugu, and Shirou struggles with this in HF. He was on the thin line between turning his mind into steel and becoming like Kiritsugu or doing the complete opposite. Mich666 said: C-Core said: I would say the flashback does serve its purpose as several viewers seemed to understand Kiritsugu better, though I find it to be misplaced. It would have fit better, if they had shown the flashback right after Saber's not-conversation with Kiritsugu, when she concluded that he wanted to become a champion of justice in the past. You are right, that would fit the flow a lot better. Still, I am not fully convinced this should get 2 eps coverage as many other characters were blatanty undeveloped. It's not like this episode explained us why Kiritsugu is fighting this war. It only showed us he is hypocrite in his wish. I would whole-heartedly agree that two episodes are too much (and really, the novel has dedicated very few pages to Kiritsugu's background story), but since large parts of Kiritsugu's characterization from the Light Novel were omitted (mostly his thoughts starting from episode 1), this flashback was in my opinion necessary and since the flashback was very short in the novel, they had to extend it. The author had to show Kiritsugu's utilitarian thinking, as it plays a bigger role at the end of FZ and is also an important theme in FSN, as Archer and Shirou struggle with this philosphy, too. The flashback does explain why Kiritsugu fights in the war, but it's very subtle and only makes sense at the end. If we're talking about the Masters, who get much focus in the novel, it's really only Kirei, Kiritsugu and Waver, and Urobuchi had to cut large chunks of Waver's story because Waver wasn't supposed to be a "main" character. Tokiomi gets one (maybe two or three but veery few) POV chapter, and lots of info in the anime was cut in that scene where he says goodbye to Rin, which can potentially portray him in a better light, while Kariya does get a few more POVs, yet he is often ignored for a long time until he shows up again. The only Servants who got bigger characterizations in the novel were the three kings as far as I remember. I don't even wanna mention Ryuunosuke, Kayneth and Sola and their Servants because they seemed to be filler material, just like Assassin who was really only cannon fodder and a plot device for Kirei. Most of Kayneth and Sola's story for instance is only revealed in material books, just like Norikata's research which I explained above or Natalia's half-succubus ancestry. |
CapsuleCoreAug 31, 2014 5:01 PM
C-Core said: Tokiomi gets one (maybe two or three but veery few) POV chapter, and lots of info in the anime was cut in that scene where he says goodbye to Rin, which can potentially portray him in a better light, while Kariya does get a few more POVs, yet he is often ignored for a long time until he shows up again. The only Servants who got bigger characterizations in the novel were the three kings as far as I remember. I am actually thinking they MIGHT add that scene to FSN adaptation. |
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| Well dang. I love me some chicken, but that may be taking it a bit far. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| HIDOI, HIDOI, this was just too horrible for an episode, I can't take it. 27CansOfTuna said: **** you >.< |
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| I have a feeling this episode was set on a remote Philippine island coz "Alimango" was mentioned. |
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| No wonder Kiritsugu hates mages. |
| Kinda predictable, but decent backstory. Twisted justice is always interesting. |
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RedRoseFring said: Well dang. I love me some chicken, but that may be taking it a bit far. That's what I was thinking. |
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| This episode was so sad ;_; I liked when Shirley picked up "Kerry" and spun him around. |
| Intense backstory. It was so in-depth, they could of made a who show based off this single episode |
| Hi there |
| There is no way those were not zombies. What the fuck are vampires doing in my Fateverse anyway? I mean, I am not complaining, but I was wondering if I was actually watching Fate/Zero for a little bit. INTENSE and extremely good episode in any case. I was thinking I wouldn't care for this episode before watching it, as these backstory episodes tend to be dull, but this was just exceptionally well done. I was a tad surprised Kiritsugu so easily killed his father, but it fits in line with his character quite well. |
 ☩ Discord: the.path.to.pathos ☩ RateYourMusic ☩ last.fm |
Zadion said: There is no way those were not zombies. What the fuck are vampires doing in my Fateverse anyway? I mean, I am not complaining, but I was wondering if I was actually watching Fate/Zero for a little bit. INTENSE and extremely good episode in any case. I was thinking I wouldn't care for this episode before watching it, as these backstory episodes tend to be dull, but this was just exceptionally well done. I was a tad surprised Kiritsugu so easily killed his father, but it fits in line with his character quite well. I hope I wasnt late.. |
| Well, you know, Tsukihime is kind of filled with vampires, same verse. |
HentaiPriest said: Zadion said: There is no way those were not zombies. What the fuck are vampires doing in my Fateverse anyway? I mean, I am not complaining, but I was wondering if I was actually watching Fate/Zero for a little bit. INTENSE and extremely good episode in any case. I was thinking I wouldn't care for this episode before watching it, as these backstory episodes tend to be dull, but this was just exceptionally well done. I was a tad surprised Kiritsugu so easily killed his father, but it fits in line with his character quite well. I hope I wasnt late.. Yeah, I remember hearing the term before, as well as probably in F/SN (not that I'd recall), so I wasn't so surprised about that. It was the literal "mindless zombies" type of creature which was what was odd to see. |
☩ Discord: the.path.to.pathos ☩ RateYourMusic ☩ last.fm |
| It's just one of the stages before one becomes an actual vampire. You need magical potential to become a vampire, otherwise you just become one of "The Dead", which is nothing more than a zombie-like familiar. It is perfectly natural for Dead Apostles to appear and makes sense if one has seen Tsukihime and understands what Norikata was doing. I'll quote what I wrote two pages before: Norikata got his Sealing Designation twenty years before his death. Shirley drinking the potion was a lucky coincidence, as it served as a distraction. Also, Dead Apostles are inevitably linked to immortality and that is what Norikata wanted for his time research to reach Akasha. If he cannot achieve true immortality, which means no downsides like blood to sustain oneself and the impulse to drink blood, it's a failure and will lead to becoming a "regular" Dead Apostle. The Dead Apostles' Curse of Restoration is time based. The Emiya family researched time magic. Akasha research -> Time magic -> Immortality -> Dead Apostle. Dead Apostles are really making lots of sense here. |
| Intense episode,^kiritsugu's past,,kiritsugu kill his own father and his friend shirley,,OMG!on that aged he knows how to shot a gun, |
| He didnt kill Shirley. |
| 5/5 Good episode, this time to know little digression Kiritsugu is well done, with what we understand also the hardness to which he was exposed, and we also know how it was grown. Very crude and painful narration. Very beautiful drawings. |
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| Such a strong boy! |
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| Does anyone know what happened to Shirley? |
|
ExTamplierRuss said: Killed by Natalia or the random agents that were sent there.Does anyone know what happened to Shirley? |
Piegoose said: Dayum That's some depressing stuff. Never knew Fate was tied to Tsukihime. Feels like an unnecessary connection, from my knowledge, to be honest. If it was not tied to Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai, we would have no Kirei(since Holy Church is from Tsukihime, which has most of explanations about it in Ciel's route), no Kiritsugu backstory, no Rin or her magic types(since the teacher of Tohsaka Family, Zelretch is a major character in Tsukihime lore), not even majority of plotlines that connect to GAIA and ALAYA, concepts introduced in Tsukihime and KnK. No Magus Association too since KnK establishes what Root/Akasha is and what Magus goals are. Having Tsukihime and KNK here is no different than having Fate Stay Night storyline take place in three separate parallel worlds at the same time. |
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| Whaaaa? I can't vouch for everyone but to me the connections make everything 200% more fun. Who cares if it's not relative to the goal of the show? It is what it is, I read freaking 300 hours of material I'm glad type-moon wanted to give me some in universe continuity. And what better way than freaking zombie's? Actually know that I think about it, it is important. Very important. It's relative to goal of all mages, which is also very important for the grail war. I call importance. 10/10 |
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| I guess so, I see what you mean. Although I think It would be out of place if those cameo aspects were actually part of the grail war. This was all compressed into the backstory of our hero which obviously has ties with things not introduced in fate, things like Enforces going after rouge mages and executors... Also going after rouge mages... And that one Cornelius cameo. You could kind of look at like a kind of fanservice episode. There's no dead apostle zombies running around during the grail war, but they're still out there. I hope that made sense lol |
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Piegoose said: WrongPriest said: Whaaaa? I can't vouch for everyone but to me the connections make everything 200% more fun. Who cares if it's not relative to the goal of the show? It is what it is, I read freaking 300 hours of material I'm glad type-moon wanted to give me some in universe continuity. And what better way than freaking zombie's? Actually know that I think about it, it is important. Very important. It's relative to goal of all mages, which is also very important for the grail war. I call importance. 10/10 Well remember my original comment wasn't calling anyone out. I was simply saying that the newfound connection didn't really sit right with me - in that it doesn't feel like the same kind-of atmosphere and a grail war of this power should likely be more relevant to the Tsukihime side of things. I haven't read the visual novel of that though, which is why I said "from my knowledge". I just would prefer the grail war being the fantasy focus and other things like vampires and werewolves to be elsewhere, but I don't knock things on such superficial stuff. It all just doesn't feel compatible from how I saw Fate before. But the flashbacks dont have anything to do with the Grail war anyway.They only serve to show Kiritsugu's story. They could show a random irrelevant story or something relating to the goal of all stereotypical magi that we know from other works. |
WrongPriest said: Whaaaa? I can't vouch for everyone but to me the connections make everything 200% more fun. Who cares if it's not relative to the goal of the show? It is what it is, I read freaking 300 hours of material I'm glad type-moon wanted to give me some in universe continuity. And what better way than freaking zombie's? Actually know that I think about it, it is important. Very important. It's relative to goal of all mages, which is also very important for the grail war. I call importance. 10/10 other Fate fans could learn from your ability to give your opinion without sounding like an elitist douche. ;o |
☩ Discord: the.path.to.pathos ☩ RateYourMusic ☩ last.fm |
| Also touko's sigs from nat!!! |
 Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
| I can understand that, I'd be pretty confused if the Aliens from Notes appeared in FSN lol I can't help but love Type-moon's fan-service though, they go out of their way to do things like this. |
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| I think that vampires,at least low level hghouls, are nowhere as amazing as a Holy Grail war,Heroic spirits and many magi with different abilities but anyway. It wasnt Arcuied,Roa,Chaos or that chick or whatever she is from Fate/Strange Fake that appeared.They really arent much different from the Cthulhu monsters of Caster. |
| I really dont see it that way.Especially when the Holy Grail Wars were created by a vampire... |
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