Can anime ever be "problematic"?

Esquirtit said:

Yes no shit we're talking about normalization not straight up copying.

Now I undersand what you mean with ''mister-literal'', but sorry you butchered this conversation from the beginning by extending the conversation to manipulative ads and mainstream outlets which do in fact serve the purpose of normalizing behaviours and thoughts. That's why in my first reply, I ask you if you can even compare it with fan service gags in anime.


Bro, what? How is that nuanced? Man said "seperating a game that aims to be train terrorists from the middle east to engage is combat'' this shouldn't even be in a conversation when talking about normalization. Does the CIA have a shop where they sell these games?


What is the message in a fan service gag though? When is positive or negative to you? If we're talking nonconsensual gags, I can argue it's not meant to be taken literally because it's a seperate world and that viewers understand this. What exactly is the normalization here?


Not to be homophobic. It implies obsession (moefag, shounenfag, ecchifag etc).

Zeroflamez said:

LOL bro. When I dropped the soy milk. That dude just fucking lost it and got super defensive. Having to prove I'm wrong. It's comical. They just prove the point of it giving them Estrogen on their own.

ReaperCreeper said:
Wait until they find out Japan uses soy sauce for everything.

thepotatogirl said:
Earlier I saw a post about how SJW were ruining anime for wanting to push a western agenda into a different culture. The post was taken down, but I ended up thinking about some valid points that were made and I wanna talk about it.

I do think that sometimes in anime there are things that can be and are detrimental to a considerable amount of groups that are present in any society: ethnic minorities, the lgbt+ community, and yes, also women. There are gay people in Japan, there are immigrants in Japan, there are transgender people in Japan, and it's important to acknowledge that a lot of times they aren't portrayed in a very positive or healthy way. That is not to say that anime is the thing that is gonna make the people start thinking about gay and women rights, but it definitely play a role in the normalization some things.

Of course, it's important that we, as westerners, understand that we're talking about a completely different culture and that we can't examine anime through the same lens as we would do with other cartoons (BoJack Horseman i.e). But that doesn't mean that just because something it's from a different culture it can't be judged by people outside of it. It also doesn't mean that we can't be happy when we see things that acknowledge the existence and the validity of those minorities I previously talked about.

Two complaints that I always see when I read about this subject are the oversexualization of women, and the way in which yaoi and yuri are just fetishizing homosexual relationships. I personally don't have an issue with any of those, as I understand that we're talking about content that is targeted to an specific demographic and it is usually done in a context that is obviously not intended to be a representation of the real world. It's just like porn, straight, gay and lesbian (not to say they are the same thing, ofc): unrealistic content catered to an specific group of people and which its sole purpose is entertainment. As long as is clear that the fanservice is fanservice, whatever.

But that doesn't mean that is not good to have more shoujo series starring realistic lgbt+ couples. such as Given and Bloom Into You. Or that it would be amazing to find good shonen female characters that are not overlysexualized, as shonen guys don't tend to be.
In terms of representation, I don't think it is always needed, but it's still important that it is there. In School Days it would be stupid to include an arc dedicated to how Makoto's mom overcomes the challenge of being a single mom in Japan, because that's not the point of the anime. But it's always nice to have a couple in Shingeki no Kyojin that was important for the plot and that it just so happened to be a lesbian couple.

I definitely don't plan to stop watching anime, cause even when I don't how some groups are portrayed, I do love the general anime way of storytelling, the art, the music, most times the humor and the characters. I love the stories that couldn't be easily made in other but an anime world (hence why we are yet to see a good live action adaptation for an anime). But that doesn't mean that I am not allowed to spot and judge things that I find "problematic", or that I can't celebrate when I see anime trying to be more inclusive to parts of society that have been ignored during anime history.

And that's it fellas, thank you for coming to my TED talk. (PS. A non native speaker her, please excuse the mistakes)

Tylaen said:
When I opened this thread, the sort of considerations I read weren't the ones I expected to see going in. I'll definitely be monitoring this thread if it maintains interest or survives moderation.

The dearth of content in regards to unsexualized female character designs is largely part of the issue, or at least the issue the circle I'm in finds in anime. If the sexualization wasn't so ubiquitous to a ton of shows, I figure I'd be more okay with it yet the prevalence of it seems largely unbalanced in my eyes. It doesn't help that a large majority of the time, their sexualized appearance is very much not part of their characterization either, just an "incidental" nod to the audience that they might enjoy seeing this girl undress. *Wink* *Wink*

I've largely stuck myself on transgender representation, racial, etc. I'd make a fairly poor case and those subjects I'm monitoring on other platforms. Some things are easier to call out than others, however, so I'm not completely silent on all fronts and occasionally it's just a given.

I appreciate the TED talk.

TolkienFan365 said:



I would disagree that it is ubiquitous to a ton of shows you can find a lot that don't. Even those that cater to the otaku market. Plus I don't think it really is up to the artist to provide balance. I shouldn't say to someone who just wants to write some fetishitic yaoi for their fantasies make more realistic content because there isn't enough. That is up to the market to support more content that is more realistic or proper.


Plus it depends on the context. There isn't an inherent reason that drawing art of a girl undressing is bad because people will like it. Again that shouldn't be ashamed. What I would agree is I don't think anime/manga handles sexualization that well. Hentai funny enough does it way better.

Turtles_Hunter said:
At the beginning the word SJW is a creation from alt right to dismiss everything they're against. It serve a purpose, cutting short any discussion that doesn't go their way by appealing to the argument that those ideas are supported by pinkhaired fanatics that jump on every fight they can, as long as it can make them progressit. Willingly or not, that's exactly what you just did, you just dismissed the whole argument by claiming "SJW are shit".

Now, I'm not gonna deny those lunatics do exist, and I even think they de serve the causes they pretend to defend. But that said, does that make all the people that defend those causes SJW, and the cause they defend not worth even discussing? I don't think so.

On the main subject now, I tend to agree with you. Something is problematic by a society standard, which is different in different countries but also change through time. By that, of course something can be problematic, anime as anything else. Every sane people would admit that Disney Song of the South is problematic by today's standard, even if it wasn't at the time. Blaming SJW is a scapegoat. Those people only don't like that some problematic subject are now recognised by everyone and don't get a free pass anymore. Like if Harvey Weinstein was complaining he can't fuck anyone he wants anymore, because of those filthy SJW that made people believe women had the right to say no.

Often, how show are marketed that can be as problematic as what they are. For example, I have a big problem with series like To-Love-Ru for example. Sexualizing underage girls has always been a problem in anime, but hey, what float your boat, everyone has his kinks, as long as you keep that between you and your computer. The real problem I have with that is that for a long time, that kind of shit only concerned a small part of the OAV industry, nothing too wide spread. But with TLR we reach a new lvl. That was a fucking shonen jump series, and I'm really uneasy with the idea that's how it's presented to young teenagers. I don't care about closet pervert that can draw a line, but not everyone that is exposed to that can. It's a really bad example, and I don't want to live in a society where that's the example given to my kids. If TLR was an obscure serie of OAV meant for a niche public into that, I would have no problem with it. But it's something that's presented as normal, and I think that's problematic.

To dismiss that, some people will use the art argument. But the same way as cinema, comic book, series and video game, anime are as much art as they are consumption products. As consumption product, their goal is to make money. That's why there is so much fanservice in some anime, to attract the average people. I really think that recognising this duality is an important point. Does it serve the story, the point it wants to make, or is it there only to attract the viewer. If it's the second, I think it's questionnable to consider it art, and the question of being problematic seems legitimate.

In the end, blaming the SJW is juste a scapegoat to avoid to discuss the subject of why do I think that thing that society doesn't approve is ok, and they hide with the "it's art".

Tylaen said:
Senpai has noticed you. Do not worry! I'm certain not understanding biochemistry runs in your ideology.

Peaceful_Critic said:
They didn't though. The video said it was a plant type of chemical that's similar to estrogen(but not the same thing), and that was much weaker to the point it didn't affect testosterone levels, all of which is true based on the research I've also seen("Exposure to isoflavones (including at levels above typical Asian dietary intakes) has not been shown to affect either the concentrations of estrogen and testosterone, or the quality of sperm and semen (181, 182).")

Peaceful_Critic said:
They didn't though. The video said it was a plant type of chemical that's similar to estrogen(but not the same thing), and that was much weaker to the point it didn't affect testosterone levels, all of which is true based on the research I've also seen("Exposure to isoflavones (including at levels above typical Asian dietary intakes) has not been shown to affect either the concentrations of estrogen and testosterone, or the quality of sperm and semen (181, 182).")

backdoornight said:


You see, my guys, that's not even really the point here. You're interpreting that guy as having implied that "you all have effeminate views because you drink soy milk", but what he must have really meant is something more like "you drink soy milk because you have effeminate views" (don't quote me). It's like "vapid city girls only drink Pumpkin Spice Latte". It's not even supposed to be some scientific statement, just someone poking fun on y'all because the stereotype fits like a glove. Really, there's no need to get that mad.

Let's say I concede to the fact that phytoestrogens really do not interfere in males' hormonal levels in any way (there's no universal scientific consensus whether they do or don't as of 2020 afaik, but feel free to send me recent, peer-reviewed papers if you wish). You guys then proceed to act like petty dames over some silly quip and link us to a video of a guy with an improbably round baby face and literally under 300 ng/dl of free testosterone saying that ACKCHUALLY you should chug plenty of soylent to own the alt-right snowflakes. Gold.

Tylaen said:
Ah, Tolkien fan. You're making me break my vow to get some sleep.

I agree that it isn't up to the individual artist to make the large change and expecting one person to do so Is an unfair burden to put on them. I've also not once brought up the topic of realism, merely sexualization. One can have fantastical clothing without it somehow showing off all your kinky assets to the world. I do not, however, think It unfair to have to artist consider that their art is not created in a vacuum and their voice adds to others, whether intentionally or not.

I'm all for positive reinforcement, I'm just not for what you generally see in anime.

As for the last two sentences, you're provided me. Inherently, I don't disagree...girls undressing is natural but the context is critical once more! I don't think you've found me ragging on hentai or ecchi, probably ever? So, I agree to an extent.

Now please god, allow me some rest man. I need the energy for all the aggression I'm facing later.

TolkienFan365 said:



Well I think the problem is asking the creator to have to consider what every person is going to take from their art. The writer of Catcher in The Rye didn't assume their work was going to be someone's inspiration for assassinating a well known musical creator. Of course like anything if someone is considered with something the artist of course I think should clarify.

If I am writing from the say perspective of an a racist and he does horrible things and someone is upset or concerned with that I don't think there is anything wrong with clarifying what you believe and just stating intent for those bothered or to keep away actual bad people who see it as endorsement. In many cases it's very hard to be clear. I know this from other fanbases like 40k which is very critical of authoritarianism and pretty much every political ideology but some see it as endorsing right wing views from a casual look and content/perspective.

Since some of this is around sexualization. If people need a warning say around a non consent rape fantasy in a hentai that says this is fantasy not a representation of views or reality fine but again I don't think the artist has some responsibility to ensure society is running properly. That of course doesn't mean character interactions can't be critiqued but when someone says problematic to me you are arguing the creator is causing harm. The problem also many people take that seriously. If I write a bad female character I am not sexist just like if someone writes a bad gay romance they aren't homophobic but people treat them like they are evil for doing that instead of just critiquing it like anything else in a story.


As for the last statement no just my general views not stating you had. It reminds me of the Fire Force situation where people just felt the fanservice was out of place and after seeing it on twitter (only watched like two episodes and I need to eventually pick it up again) I get what they are talking about. So of course when I just made the argument that yeah a lot of anime doesn't use it well people accused me of being an SJW. I don't think the creator should be ashamed but at the same time yeah I am going to critique it like anything. The problem with a lot of sexual content in anime/manga not much actually feels natural it's just slapstick or unnatural ways for titiliation. Plus I mean I like fantasies who can I deny but for me that is just kinda a turn off honestly because personally I need a dose of reality there.

Zeroflamez said:

Not my discussion but if you want reality why watch Anime?

Tylaen said:
I also did not simply my example was nuanced in itself but rather than discerning the differences in messaging is where the nuances come from, that you intentionally misinterpret me time and time again sort of feels like a game of whack-a-mole that I'm tired of at this late hour.

Tylaen said:
Given you're followed my posts, I'd say you're fully aware of what I perceive as negative. Also, I'm not sure why you're saying it shouldn't be taken literally when that's what I just said? It's not a one-to-one translation.

The normalization we're talking of is the objectification of women to an extent where their agency is no longer considered. It doesn't matter what they want, just what I want.

Hey_Taka-tin_Hey said:


Can you not quote me with your verbal diarrhea? You sound like an American nutjob, no xenophobia intended.
I'm not from your side of the Atlantic, don't drag me into your bullshit.

Got a problem with my report, take it up with the staff. Guess what, though? Your shit thread would have been locked anyway, I just expedited the process by letting them know it was up.

PS: Stick your buzzwords up your arse, while you're at it. Alt this, alt that... what you need is an alternate brain.
(And with that I take my leave from AD...)

StarManOfAtmora said:
Sure, it definitely can. LotGH is a perfect example of this. I like the show a lot, gave it an 8/10 myself. Only problem is the way it represents women. They're all secretaries, and they all end up as the housewife of a male lead character (with the exception of Reinhard's sister, who has some effect on Reinhard for a while, before she ends up just kind of talking softly the rest of the show and suddenly that's her personality I guess). This is bad because the show takes place in like, 2700 or some ludicrously far away year.
This is a sci-fi series, and most combat happens from inside space ships. There is no reason why a woman shoudn't be in one of those positions. Yet all the characters in positions of power are male, and all the women are side characters who don't affect the plot in major ways. This doesn't make sense in universe. This doesn't take place in contemporary times or the past. I enjoy the show a lot, but this aspect of it definitely lowered my enjoyment of it.

And don't give me that "Well akshually it *did* come out in '88 you can't expect it to have progressive social views!" Yeah I can. I decide my own standars. GunBuster came out in the same fuckin' year.

Hey_Taka-tin_Hey said:


Toriyama doesn't know how to handle his characters properly, period. Women, men, it doesn't matter.

The problem with most of the women in Dragon Ball is that they're human. Unless they happen to be something like an android (18) or even an alien, they'll get tossed to the side.
That's just Toriyama being Toriyama.

Once the power spikes started getting out of control, the man no longer had any control over his own story. It's not so much that women have to wives, or even that they can't fight, it's that human beings got whipped. Everyone, from Launch to Tien, got whipped.

Setsuei said:

This. This right here is the kind of thought process I don't understand. So, If I read this correctly, anyone who watches and enjoys shows that contain these types of themes/premises is automatically a "chauvinistic incel" in your eyes. If that's indeed you're stance on this issue, then from my point of view, you're stance on this is far more problematic than anything that takes place in a fictional world. I hate to break it to you, but just because you watch stuff like that doesn't mean you endorse that kind of behavior in real life...That's like saying I'm highly likely to ground someones parents into chili or try to reform the nazi party just because I saw Cartman do it on South Park.

katsucats said:
No, anyone who gets offended at anyone calling slavery problematic is probably a chauvinistic incel. The fact that you overreacted and got offended to my comment probably put you in that category by proxy, but what's even more problematic than that attitude is the fact that you can't read.

katsucats said:
No, anyone who gets offended at anyone calling slavery problematic is probably a chauvinistic incel. The fact that you overreacted and got offended to my comment probably put you in that category by proxy, but what's even more problematic than that attitude is the fact that you can't read.

katsucats said:
No, anyone who gets offended at anyone calling slavery problematic is probably a chauvinistic incel. The fact that you overreacted and got offended to my comment probably put you in that category by proxy, but what's even more problematic than that attitude is the fact that you can't read.

Peaceful_Critic said:
@backdoornight

Well, I am a girl, but he wasn't referring to me when he said the other guy must have been drinking soymilk.


I'm not mad, I just disagree. If I am being honest here, I think Zero got way too offended that someone said "X anime was problematic to me for Y reason. " You can go back to the comment he called a soyboy and see the other commenter was calm and simply explained why civilly. I don't like how Zero handled the situation at all since he threw an insult at him when he could've just rationally explained his position.


I just linked an edu thing that had 2 .gov studies within it on humans(i.e 181, and 182) that proved it. I mean you could also do the two animal studies on it, but, we are talking about humans, so the human studies would be better to base an opinion off of.

@Zeroflamez

Yeah...people tend to get emotional when you attempt to insult them by attacking their manhood. I don't really like insults such as soyboy for that kind of reason, it puts expectations on guys that they have to act or look a certain way to fit into this archetype on what a really man is and shame those who don't fit into that stereotype. I don't think being a more feminine guy should be as shamed as it is.

Zeroflamez said:

I don't even know why the guy responding to me is responding to me about the soy milk comment. He wasn't even the person I initially replied to.

TwilightCelica said:
I had such high hopes for this thread reading the first few posts, but then it devolved into a completely pointless argument that takes up half the thread.

Peaceful_Critic said:
@Zeroflamez

I mean if you are really curious, you could just ask him as to why.

TolkienFan365 said:


I want people to react like they would in situations given. I like fantasy stories but I want people to you know act like people. A guy peeking in a girls bath gets him a sexual harassment write up not just a boot to the jaw. I just find it immersion breaking and since this is usually supposed to be comedic I don't find it funny either.

Zeroflamez said:

I don't care enough to do so. He does that in every thread. Chimes into something that doesn't concern him.
Ok and? It's fiction. It's not supposed to be what people in real life would actually do. So many times the girls throw themselves at the MC and he deflects advances and runs away when they try to assert themselves on him. That is not normal for a guy to do, especially when it comes to an attractive woman(which is how they are always portrayed in Anime)

TolkienFan365 said:


A girl finding a guy attractive and going consistently after him even after rejecting her advances is fine because it does happen. I don't even mind exaggeration for comedic purposes but most fanservice scenes don't have a dose of reality in it. That does. Same thing with idealization. Sure it's unlikely for an entire cast of people to be full of hot girls and guys but attractive girls and guys exist. Plus in a lot of anime/manga like action series it makes sense that they are in good shape.

To bring another example I got into it with people pointing out how stupid characters like Hux and Holdo acted strategically in SW The Last Jedi and the plot was unaware what they were doing was stupid. The response was well it doesn't matter because it's a space opera. Well no it does because just because the universe is wacky and weird doesn't mean human beings don't behave in certain ways and logic doesn't exist. Sure rules may change and things can be exaggerated but you still need a dose of reality in it. Otherwise I just feel it kinda kills my immersion. The purpose of fiction in my opinion is to submerge the consumer into a different world, situation or purpose and therefore you need to keep a sense of immersion. If it doesn't for others cool but it does for me.

Anyway that's just my personal opinion I am not bashing people who enjoy fanservice hijinks just explaining why I think anime/manga uses it poorly and why i don't like it.

katsucats said:
It's a shame that in her critique, the OP was completely blind to the harmful stereotypes against male characters, such that it's often okay to beat them up for no reason, or that they are often dumb hunks that need to be told what to do. But the overall point should not be taken lightly. Of course there can be problematic anime. When a protagonist picks up slave girls and train them, it's problematic even if he is "nice". When the protagonist outright buys a slave girl at an auction so she could be his bride, it is extremely more problematic than Beauty and the Beast. When "tsundere" or "yandere" are shown to be acceptable or even desirable behavior, that is extremely problematic. I won't enumerate down the whole list. I've probably offended enough chauvinistic incels who wish they lived in the 50s.

i never claimed laws and morals are the same?

i just said chinas laws for example bans or censors anime with certain themes their government do not like

>and moral values dictate traditional values and culture

err one major source of morals is religion and religion is part of culture

religion can dictate laws for example islam have those haram laws right?

Zeroflamez said:

You're expecting too much from Ecchi man..

epidemia78 said:


You almost did the ol "it's called being a decent human being, sweety" thing

you are literally the SJW stereotype made flesh

Esquirtit said:
If you knew why suggest I was being homophobic on purpose lol. SJW!


Idk, I just wanted to make fun of the example. You could've skipped trying to give this explanation on how contextual use is important to the conversation. I didn't see the point in it. Maybe you should've given an example related to anime, one where the purpose is to ''normalize'' certain ''problematic'' things. Probably hard to do, because we both know that nonconsensual gags do not serve that purpose.

edit: There are plenty of games that allow you to freely kill people however you want. It's quite the standard fam. The ''training game for terrorists in the middle east'' example is redundant, because I still literally have no idea what your position on violence in media is. How you gonna say context is important, and then not even explain when you perceive something to be normalizing problematic issues? Jesus man. Just go straight to the point.


Well, I don't know when and when not you believe something sexual is responsible for normalization. I don't remember you specifying what the ''messages'' are. Kind of a broad topic this is, isn't it. If a nonconsensual gag isn't meant to be taken on face value, but serves the purpose of giving the audience fan service, then what message is it sending lol?


Agency in what way though? Narratively? Like being put in nonconsensual gags? It's just to fill a fantasy/taboo humor. Pantyshots? Just a drawing. Skimpy clothing? Just a drawing. Like wtf.

IRC you're also against sexualization of lolis so whatever, you don't allow for freedom of expression. I CBA, there's no point in talking to each other.

Tylaen said:
Oh my lord, I'm losing my mind here. The freedom to want to sexualized child-like characters is holy indeed.

Well, I'm glad you don't want to talk to me. It saves me having to deal with the simultaneous belief that media is somehow capable of affecting people yet the animated medium is somehow excluded here. It's a convenient shield, I'll give you that.

If you change your mind, let me know.

Esquirtit said:


It's not capable of affecting people any more than a random video with your mom on Pornhub. That's your shtick right.. ''just watch porn/hentai!''.

The point of this conversation is to find out where the line is. If games like GTA are fine, how are niche anime not? Why do you belief they need to hold so much responsibility?

You can't stand the very idea of ''objectification'', even when it's through a 2D world where no one gets harmed, like you're not just bothered because of your personal taste, but also that there are people who do enjoy it.

What is with that sarcasm? Your idea stretches so far you're potentially taking the freedom of millions of people away. Anti-loli brigade is so far up its own ass... when it comes to how it's harming society in any way their arguments are akin to that from a Karen whining about her son playing GTA.

Tylaen said:

Ah, you're referring to that recent thread where that one guy brought up the Funimation bit again after the prior one had been locked and I told him to vent his frustrations via pornography? If you believe my entire ordeal to be surmised into that brief 4 to 5 word sentence then I don't have the power to convince you otherwise.

Other than so, I'd like to have a clear answer on these things, but are you or are you not up for resuming this? Why do you object to my sarcasm when you've shown similar scorn? Is your skin not thick enough? If so, should we convert to more civil wording where we don't constantly jab at each other, or is that asking too much of you?

Now onto what you actually wanted to hear. I can't believe I'm forced to use this word but it's once again, contextual! Surprise. Full disclosure, I haven't actually played GTA ever since the the overhead versions that was super pixelated come out but I've watched a great deal of gameplay of it simply due to cultural osmosis. As I've observed, GTA's protagonists are never fully endorsed via the cutscenes that take place or the actions therein. It's true, however, that the gameplay can get downright genocidal and so you can ask, why is this alright? It's alright for the same reasons that I don't condemn Minecraft for incidentally allowing someone to make a swastika. It's just what some players do, and so the game itself is not directly responsible for all reprehensible acts.

Switching to anime, It's important to separate that games are interactive so the player and view experience can't be translated directly.

Now once more with feeling. Context! I've little issue with animation that holds itself to not put women into ridiculously sexual situations or clothing at all times. If it's a part of their characterization, so be it but I find even that rarely goes beyond actively titillating the audience but it's marginally less offensive. (Marginally). If an accidental "boob" grab is portrayed as funny, that is where my line is and for a good example, I'd ask to look at Evangelion. Such things are rarely funny for the one on the receiving end, and often fairly uncomfortable.

And yes, I'm bothered by people who enjoy it. Got it a problem wit that? You may shove it. I don't care about people's freedom to sexualize small girls,

I don't care about peoples freedom to abuse animals

I don't care about peoples freedom to discriminate against minorities because they offend their sensibilities by mere existence.

I find you repulsive and I believe we share that feeling towards each other, so I request you cease appealing to my sense of "freedom" and actually bring up something better than enabling people's innate cruelty by practicing apathy.

I don't fucking care, dude. You're in it to score points against the SJW with your pals and I'm here for the audience! I hope you're having a splendid time.

Tylaen said:

Ah, you're referring to that recent thread where that one guy brought up the Funimation bit again after the prior one had been locked and I told him to vent his frustrations via pornography? If you believe my entire ordeal to be surmised into that brief 4 to 5 word sentence then I don't have the power to convince you otherwise.

Other than so, I'd like to have a clear answer on these things, but are you or are you not up for resuming this? Why do you object to my sarcasm when you've shown similar scorn? Is your skin not thick enough? If so, should we convert to more civil wording where we don't constantly jab at each other, or is that asking too much of you?

Now onto what you actually wanted to hear. I can't believe I'm forced to use this word but it's once again, contextual! Surprise. Full disclosure, I haven't actually played GTA ever since the the overhead versions that was super pixelated come out but I've watched a great deal of gameplay of it simply due to cultural osmosis. As I've observed, GTA's protagonists are never fully endorsed via the cutscenes that take place or the actions therein. It's true, however, that the gameplay can get downright genocidal and so you can ask, why is this alright? It's alright for the same reasons that I don't condemn Minecraft for incidentally allowing someone to make a swastika. It's just what some players do, and so the game itself is not directly responsible for all reprehensible acts.

Switching to anime, It's important to separate that games are interactive so the player and view experience can't be translated directly.

Now once more with feeling. Context! I've little issue with animation that holds itself to not put women into ridiculously sexual situations or clothing at all times. If it's a part of their characterization, so be it but I find even that rarely goes beyond actively titillating the audience but it's marginally less offensive. (Marginally). If an accidental "boob" grab is portrayed as funny, that is where my line is and for a good example, I'd ask to look at Evangelion. Such things are rarely funny for the one on the receiving end, and often fairly uncomfortable.

And yes, I'm bothered by people who enjoy it. Got it a problem wit that? You may shove it. I don't care about people's freedom to sexualize small girls, I don't care about peoples freedom to abuse animals, I don't care about peoples freedom to discriminate against minorities because they offend their sensibilities by mere existence. I find you repulsive and I believe we share that feeling towards each other, so I request you cease appealing to my sense of "freedom" and actually bring up something better than enabling people's innate cruelty by practicing apathy. I don't fucking care, dude. You're in it to score points against the SJW with your pals and I'm here for the audience! I hope you're having a splendid time.

Esquirtit said:

Well, it's a popular response nowadays from people who are against sexualization.


I didn't understand your use of sarcasm because you do actually believe that something dear to people should be taken away.


Yeah no, GTA clearly encourages going on mass murder sprees. It's the fastest way to earn 5 stars and get in a police chase. There are multiple implemented cheat codes for all kinds of crazy shit. Online is full of missions like heists and assassinations, where you can make your own character.The storyline is just one part of the game. You can take the protagonists and go open-world mode. Or go online and go open-world with your own avatars, to kill each other or whatever.

edit: You can even go to street prostitutes and stripclubs in GTA5, how did I forget about that. Yes, you can let them suck your dick or fuck them. It's part of the game.
edit2: All violent games encourage players to do violent things. Sorry your answer was so unsatisfactory I couldn't help but respond to it in a condescending way. Just accept you don't apply the same logic to violence in videogames because you're not offended it by it for arbitrary reasons. You're okay with engaging in fiction that lets you be a complete criminal, but not one where accidental boob graps happen, yeah aight. Both are just filling fantasies.

The Minecraft example is a whole different ballgame. It would be like blaming a piece of paper for whatever gets drawn on it.

Cool, then explain the difference in how it affects the viewer...like which one is more responsible...what the ''message'' is in a gag. If you're claiming that gags are just as responsible (or more) for ''normalization'' in how we view groups of people, consent, sexuality in general or whatever, then explain how and why it should be removed. If all you say is that it's offensive, then there is no room for understanding and conversation.


But we were talking about how it's ''normalizing'' or what the ''messages'' are. These sort of gags have their place in anime because it's an entirely seperated world with established genres and character archetypes, ecchi/harem contain them the most because there's an audience who do find it appealing.

The scene in Evangelion was juxtaposed with another where ( I think) Asuna didn't mind it all. One scene was realistic, the other one portrayed in a way you normally see in anime. Both can have their place.

We're back at square one, your entire reasoning is based on you finding it offensive. There was no attempt to justify your claim on how it harms society.

ok is that even legal or ''normal'I was more talking about artistic freedom that doesn't aim to be propagandist. lolis aren't excusing real pedophilia and child abuse me offended you're virtue signalling by demonizing fan service gags and dehumanizing otaku

Esquirtit said:

me offended

Esquirtit said:

you're virtue signalling by demonizing fan service gags and dehumanizing otaku

Esquirtit said:

I was more talking about artistic freedom that doesn't aim to be propagandist. lolis aren't excusing real pedophilia and child abuse

Vini310 said:
You are comparing the sole act of DRAWING sexualized children with abuse of REAL animals? I wonder whta you think of people who write rape stories for fun like me.
Have you ever talked to a hentai artist/writer before? Do you genuinely, unironically think we would actually rape people just because we write stories with those themes!?

Tylaen said:

No viewer is responsible for what happens on the screen. The only responsibility they can ultimately hold is an interpretation of intent, or simply wanting a certain outcome. They hold little power to sway it in either direction. I don’t believe the individual gags themselves are responsible for it all, and if such a gag was a rarity, it’d just be largely cringeworthy and unworthy of much attention. However, due to its weird prevalence in anime even outside Ecchi tagged shows. When it’s continually reinforced, even outside the sexual context of a show where a viewer might ordinarily expect such content, it becomes an issue as it intrudes on the otherwise normal socialization of the characters.

“How” it should be removed is not even a question, so I don’t know why you ask me this. Just don’t insert it? It’s not like dragging Cthulhu out from the ocean and accidentally killing the whole planet, man.

AS to why, I feel like I’ve reiterated this several times but I’ll do once more, with feeling! It’s an author’s way of having a character, typically male, intrude upon girl’s comfort zone without actually making him responsible and so conveniently making it “not his fault” that he did so.

This basically never happens aside from being a woefully unfunny gag that we’ve seen 10 million times now, that it might desensitize viewers to the personal space of women aren’t great outcomes.

The message of the “boob grab” gag is effectively meaningless, as either “benign” interpretation range from eye-rolling to side-eye worthy. (“Haha, isn’t this funny” and “The audience would like the girl to have her boob grabbed now”.) The ultimate result is just that character has had their space intruded upon in a way that constitutes harassment in most situations.

I also don’t believe we have any room for understanding regardless because you’ll never accept my answers, so who cares anyway? This audience you speak of doesn’t matter to me because that audience is you, and I don’t care about what you want because I view what you want as disgusting. That there is an audience for disgusting content.

You’re going to have be to more specific about this scene with Asuna where Shinji grabs her boob because I only recently watched this classic and unless you’re referring to the rebuilds, that’s not at all what I was talking about. Once again, that it’s not strictly “reality” doesn’t matter and this is the last time I’ll say this.

Esquirtit said:
I was more talking about artistic freedom that doesn't aim to be propagandist. lolis aren't excusing real pedophilia and child abuse

Every sort of pedophilia is real, mate. That you're not acting on it is irrelevant.

Esquirtit said:
End this, don't reply.

Esquirtit said:
then explain how and why it should be removed. If all you say is that it's offensive, then there is no room for understanding and conversation.