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Mar 24, 2013 2:33 AM
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The quality of the discussion in this thread has been simply amazing. A friend of mine who had been watching the show with me had theorized that the BNZ were remnants of the non-cantus users of old, and it seems like his theory was substantiated. I have some open questions though that maybe are answered in the novels. I'm busy with things so my progress with the novels has been slow, but I'm trying. There are some questions and thoughts I had on the series in no particular order:


  • So what is the ultimate role of the Temples of Purification? Why do they exist outside of the Sacred Barrier? Are they simply the cult arm of a far-reaching police state whose leaders don't even realize the incredibly self-sabotaging nature of the world they live in? (Very 1984-esque if you ask me. I keep remembering O'Brien's speech near the end.)
  • If the scientists were able to introduce Death Feedback into the cantus users, why couldn't they introduce Death Feedback into the non-cantus users? This would avoid the need of creating the BNZ. The only thing that comes to mind is that the non-cantus users felt this to be an unfair way to deal with the cantus users and eventually the cantus users had to conquer the non-cantus users and rage simply lead to the creation of the BNZ as atrocities.
  • Just what happened to the scientists? My theory is that they formed the Temples of Purification, but obviously Satoru does perform some genetic research on his own, so perhaps the scientists' activities were just integrated into the current society.
  • The end of the show had December 1, 245 on the date. Tomiko had been alive for 200+ years if I remember correctly. It's heavily implied that Tomiko was alive within the first 50 years of the calendar they currently use. If that's so, what does the current calendar imply? Was the new society they live in solidified around 245? (i.e. at the time, were things like BNZ and False Minoshiros common knowledge due to the police-state like suppression being new?) If so, I feel that Tomiko's actions have been much more conservative, borderline irresponsible, than they should have been.
  • The society that cantus humans live in right now seems to be a police state in every sense of the word. Even their trials are simply show trials. There's no idea of justice. Guilty because the state says you are, just like a police state. No justification presented for the punishment they meet out.
  • Just how far are the other Kamisus from Kamisu 66? When we saw the scouting parties hunt for BNZ, they seemed to cover a good distance without encountering anyone else.
  • I loved the parallels they made between the assasination of Daikangatei and Squealer's rise. I also loved the line where Squealer screams in the middle of the trial that BNZ are humans as well. While I was rooting for the cantus humans until this episode, their treatment of Kiroumaru and Squealer just made me sick. They kill indiscriminately and have no sense of justice nor fair-mindedness. If anything, the cantus humans may physically resemble today's humans, but they act, think, and value fundamentally different things than we do.
ToriFudaMar 24, 2013 2:36 AM
Mar 24, 2013 2:41 AM

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Aug 2008
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Deep story. And the philosophical questions and ideas brought does make you think alot. Like everyone had their faults, and no one was really in the right.

For one, it never occurred to me that the Queerats were actually humans. It does explain alot. It's just a wonderful story, really, very insightful and clever.
Mar 24, 2013 3:56 AM
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Mar 2013
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I still confused about something. Why the 'fiend' can wipe out Kiroumaru's entire army without getting the death feedback?
suukurenMar 24, 2013 4:33 AM
Mar 24, 2013 4:12 AM

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Apr 2012
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Shinsekai Yori: mind=blown

And that about sums it up quite thoroughly.
Mar 24, 2013 4:17 AM

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Shinsekai yori made me think alot about various themes. Really enjoyed this series.
9/10
Mar 24, 2013 4:58 AM

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Ooh. Just as I expected. The queerats are the old humans. They cleared everything in the end. Woo.

It was a decent watch.
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Mar 24, 2013 5:04 AM
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Aug 2008
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So in summary :
- There is a critical period (imprinting) period where you'll perceive yourself to be species X
- DFB works only and only when you start to perceive harming one of your kind and while observing it
- PK users get more fatigued when they use the maximum extent of the powers for a maximum amount of time based on their age (developed PK ability), and the more fatigued they are, the less able they are in using said PK abilities
- DFB's symptoms worsen when fatigued
- DFB's symptoms are put into full blown-effect (death) whenever you actually kill someone that you perceive to be your own species
- As the number of genotype/phenotype differences increases, eventually you will be unable to perceive Y species as X species of your own


If the scientists were able to introduce Death Feedback into the cantus users, why couldn't they introduce Death Feedback into the non-cantus users? This would avoid the need of creating the BNZ. The only thing that comes to mind is that the non-cantus users felt this to be an unfair way to deal with the cantus users and eventually the cantus users had to conquer the non-cantus users and rage simply lead to the creation of the BNZ as atrocities.


I think they did introduce DFB to non-cantus users. In this subgroup population, everyone inherits a copy of death feedback. (See Maria's child).
Children may or may not express PK (as evident by children being disposed of at the academy). Death feedback is hereditary, as noted with the original gene insertion. This group must also be the group of scientists (considering the knowledge of telomeres, autonomous library units, etc). So it would have to be independent of using PK, which means the remaining kids who can't use cantus are harmless. If you add that they need to use PK to feel DFB... DFB may merely work if you're actually using PK, although this would present a loophole (in that you could kill the girl with a simple gun while she isn't looking), thus this can't be true. Now as for the reasoning why they dispose non-PK users with DFB remains to be unknown. However the latter reasoning of this episode says that non-PK users don't have DFB, and to make them superior to PK users by not having DFB is incomprehensible, suggesting that the kids don't have DFB when being non-PK,however that is inconsistent with their gene insertion technique, thus this must be false too. So an explanation for the rationale of killing these non-PK kids needs to be stated.

Fiends are a weird exception, in that they get endorphins whenever they kill thus causing 100% impairment, and leading them to kill forever and forever. Or they perceive a threat from everyone as always and end up killing everyone pre-emptively before anyone can retaliate. This is not consistent with the gene-insertion hypothesis (when I look back at the episode). Fiends can also perceive humans, and classes of humans, such as that fiend going to the doctor an asking for medicine. So they definitely know its their own kind. Which is also inconsistent with the perception-of-own-species-imprinted-DFB-activation hypothesis. However, a mutation in the DFB genes would a high tendency for violence might be it. Considering the other case where kids are removed (the cheating guy in the kids' game), he was more suggestively violent... although the fiend they presented was always downstrucken (apathetic) while the violent guy was simply using whatever means he could win, but somehow fiends express this non-trait of DFB, and end up being compulsively violent by either the endorphin-theory or perceived-threat theory, but looking at his mind, he seems to have an imbued imagination of bloodiness. Also he died due to the doctor's injection and still managed to kill the doctor (according to the description of the episode with Tomoko explaining), but he did not die from DFB from knowing that he killed the doctor, so the non-perceiving threat consistency theory (that fiends perceive everyone as non-X) remains to be false, leading us to require an explanation for fiends for DFB to be consistent.

Also PK users always leak aura, and they genetically affect everyone around them (this extent is magnified with False Demons). The explanation for DFB to remain consistent, is that these genes must have mutated in fiends when inheriting a copy. Which implies that the genes were originally inserted and left there, not that Tomoko is proactively mass genetically modifying everyones' kids concurrently. A lack of DFB or a defective DFB gene means that you get super violent as PK users were noted to be selected evolutionary for their abilities, and mass killings were not a rare incidence to say the least, thus having removed DFB may nature, PK users must be inherently violent. If the above is true, then DFB is consistent and the behavior for any abnormalities would be consistent. However, if PK users with no DFB genes are violent by nature, then you can't have scientists in the first place because they'd be too accustomed to killing eachother (leading us to reject the deficient DFB-violence hypothesis) Which would also be consistent with the expansion of 22-weeks to 17 years in terms of having someone's life's rights, if they can do pre-natal testing for fiend appearances via genetic disfunctionings of their DFB genes, but if that were the case, then Tomoko wouldn't need to provide an uncertain explanation for why fiends appear. Thus leading us to how we can make DFB consistent? Perhaps fiends appear after pre-natal testing, however they made it clear that they knew that he was always abnormal. So it wasn't epigenetics that was working in progress to disactivate his DFB.

Now as for the original non-PK users in the ancestry, I have no idea. They could of just killed them all off. I don't see why they would let non-PK users reproduce as moles, or even let them have the same intelligence. The fact that they made humans genetically viable to produce offspring with a collection of mole genes means they put considerable effort in preserving this lineage of humans, with some strong reason. Otherwise, their virtue ethics wouldn't have made this impermissible to study their genome..

Also since PKness doesn't show up for everyone, this suggests that PK is still hereditary and is based on an expressive-basis because I don't see why they would dispose non-PK kids from the human lineage, they could of just easily inserted mole genes. However this disposal of kids is later on, so it can't be simply due to genes.

However, if kids don't show PK by x age, they are disposed of, so that means that PK is somehow related to DFB. If you lack PK, you're also violent or something. Although that's unlikely.

That would mean giving up power. People don't generally do that sort of thing.


Also if PK is hereditary, and they really did wanted power in the past. There's no reason why they wouldn't remove PK genes now because Tomoko said that these consequences of having to remove said children were as a result of it being the only choice combined with DFB, so this means PK must be non-hereditary. But that makes no sense because non-PK users could have just as easily become PK users, so that suggests PK users inherit PKness probability via two PK parents.

Summary of inconsistencies
Why do fiends not have DFB even when perceiving members of their own species, and harming them?
Why did the non-PK kids from the PK generation get removed considering they inherited DFB?
Why did they put the effort through to remove non-PK people and make them moles instead?
If PK isn't genetic, then PKness will show up in non-PK populations anyways, which means that they wouldn't of needed to remove said population. They could have just inserted DFB.
If PK is genetic (as suggested with only allowing PK users to survive), then that means they could have removed PK and prevented humans being the greatest enemies of themselves.
If DFB is perceptual, then everyone just needs to see a mirror reflection of grass or some illusion, cast fire in the fields and watch Maria's child die (grass burn).
NequamMar 24, 2013 6:05 AM
Mar 24, 2013 6:10 AM

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Nequam said:
So in summary :
I generally agree.

As for your next part of the post, it got a bit confusing to read in the middle so I may not have read everything correctly. But I have doubts about some of the assumptions you stated.

- I do not remember any mention that DFB was introduced to non-Cantus or there was an attempt to do that. I am not sure about the reason. It may be in the novel and I have forgotten, but I honestly do not remember. It may have to be the specific circumstances the Scientists found themselves in, which drove them to put all their effort into reducing the ability to commit violence to other human as it could be their biggest concern. Perhaps they were sponsored by those in power (by that time the ruling class must all be PK human). So when the issue of non-PK human can then kill PK-human because non-PK human does not DFB, the ruling class chose instead to make non-PK human not human any more rather and allow the non-PK human to share their noble DFB. Of course this is all speculation but I can imagine this as a possible scenario why non-PK human did not get DFB at the end but instead relegated to the rank of beasts.

- It is clear that DFB is not limited to using PK, as I have said repeatedly in the past. The rite of passage in which Saki was tested for her DFB by the priest who used a knife to hurt himself is already proof that DFB is not limited to PK usage.

- All kids are born with DFB, which is not related to whether he can use PK or not. The question with DFB is mainly how well it works. It has to work because at the end the human society always lives in fear of the emergence of a fiend (which in fact is just a human without DFB). So any kid without DFB has to be eliminated.

- I am not sure where it was said that a fiend "gets endorphins whenever they kill thus causing 100% impairment". So far we only see one clear case history of a fiend and his killing spree was triggered by some mental illness condition, but we were not told if his condition was caused by his fiend status or the other way round or the two are independent of each other. Actually I could imagine in the past when DFB check was not done so thoroughly, when the age beyond which a kid is not to be eliminated was still low, there might be some human without DFB but did not go on killing spree because his mental condition was good all the time and he used his PK power very carefully.

> "he did not die from DFB from knowing that he killed the doctor, so the non-perceiving threat consistency theory (that fiends perceive everyone as non-X) remains to be false, leading us to require an explanation for fiends for DFB to be consistent."

Not sure what you are trying to get at here. Basically the fiend did not have functioning DFB, so he just acted like the old time before DFB appeared -- he just used his PK to kill any human whenever he wanted to, whatever his perception was.

> Also PK users always leak aura, and they genetically affect everyone around them (this extent is magnified with False Demons).

Not sure how you got this idea. PK users indeed leaked power/aura but it was supposed to flow outward to area outside the village. This is why mutations seem to go on much faster than it should have been while human seems to stay the same as it is all these hundreds of years.

> The explanation for DFB to remain consistent, is that these genes must have mutated in fiends when inheriting a copy. Which implies that the genes were originally inserted and left there, not that Tomoko is proactively mass genetically modifying everyones' kids concurrently. A lack of DFB or a defective DFB gene means that you get super violent as PK users were noted to be selected evolutionary for their abilities, and mass killings were not a rare incidence to say the least, thus having removed DFB may nature, PK users must be inherently violent. If the above is true, then DFB is consistent and the behavior for any abnormalities would be consistent

To be honest, you lost me here. I really cannot understand what you were trying to say here.

symbvMar 24, 2013 7:22 AM
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Mar 24, 2013 6:20 AM
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symbv said:
Nequam said:
So in summary :
I generally agree.
I am not sure where it was said that a fiend "gets endorphins whenever they kill thus causing 100% impairment". So far we only see one clear case history of a fiend and his killing spree was triggered by some mental illness condition, but we were not told if his condition was caused by his fiend status or the other way round or the two are independent of each other


8:14-8:36 episode 12 ;
Two-Hypothesis Theory for Fiends
- Perceive everyone to be a threat, so they kill them all
- Get endorphins from killing, so they get intoxicated with killing

If DFB is inhibited like you said, then that means the DFB gene must be defective
- If DFB gene is defective, then they can screen all individuals for fiendness traits
- Thus no need of "bad cats"
- Tomoko did not assert such a theory, thus we cannot be sure if DFB is genetic
- But DFB is genetic as stated in earlier episodes of scientists trying to come up with a solution, and every child in this village having DFB
- Since DFB is independent of using PK as you said, there's no reason to remove non-PK users (from the academy and their village), since DFB is hereditary and every parent is a PK user, so their offspring are either non-PK or PK
- Which means they did introduce DFB to non-PK users, even if inadvertently
- Why treat non-PK users non-equivalently, non-PK users from PK parents are disposed of but non-PK users in the past were "moled"
- If PK is not genetic, why remove non-PK users, since PK incidence is random
- Suggesting PKness is probabilistically related to having PK parents, since only PK were allowed to survive


If DFB gene is not defective
- we need an explaination for why the fiend did not die from killing the doctor, he was able to kill the doctor and Tomoko attributed his death to the injection, so he should of died from DFB too before that
- fiend was able to perceive the doctor, you can see he asked the doctor for medicine, and he knew it was his own species


> Also PK users always leak aura, and they genetically affect everyone around them (this extent is magnified with False Demons).

Not sure how you got this idea. PK users indeed leaked power/aura but it was supposed to flow outward to area outside the village. This is why mutations seem to go on much faster than it should have been while human seems to stay the same as it is all these hundreds of years.


In episode 12, we see that Tomoko says K.Demons genetically alter everyone's DNA around them via aura
Later on we know that all users leak aura but the effects remain negligible, but K. Demons seem to cause "bad spills"
NequamMar 24, 2013 6:33 AM
Mar 24, 2013 6:28 AM

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Nequam said:

Also if PK is hereditary, and they really did wanted power in the past. There's no reason why they wouldn't remove PK genes now because Tomoko said that these consequences of having to remove said children were as a result of it being the only choice combined with DFB, so this means PK must be non-hereditary. But that makes no sense because non-PK users could have just as easily become PK users, so that suggests PK users inherit PKness probability via two PK parents.
I also don't quite understand what you are trying to say here. But basically PK is supposed to be hereditary. I have a feeling that you think that this kind of insert mole gene or insert PK gene can still be done in the time of Tomiko 200 years ago or Saki at present, but the skills of this mole gene insertion were supposed to be all lost by that time.

And I have to again stress that we never know if PK is purely a gene matter. The reason why some human developed PK was the biggest mystery in the world of this novel and nobody was ever able to explain why PK appeared). Of course you can argue that because PK is hereditary it must have to do with genetics etc etc, but my point is that according to the world in this novel, no scientific explanation was ever found to explain PK, how it emerges and how it passes from one generation to another.

Nequam said:
8:14-8:36 episode 12 ;
Two-Hypothesis Theory for Fiends
- Perceive everyone to be a threat, so they kill them all
- Get endorphins from killing, so they get intoxicated with killing
OK, you are not talking about the trigger, but why he kept on killing after he starts. Yes, there are all kinds of theory and in the anime two were mentioned. Basically we do not know which one is true, or even if none is the real cause, all Tomiko said is to highlight the syndrome, that once fiend starts killing he will keep on killing.

Nequam said:
If DFB is inhibited like you said, then that means the DFB gene must be defective
I am not sure why you said it must be defective and I do not think I said DFB is "inhibited". You mean for the "fiend"?

symbvMar 24, 2013 6:32 AM
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Mar 24, 2013 6:31 AM

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Nequam said:
Why did they put the effort through to remove non-PK people and make them moles instead?

I can't understand why the author let this go unexplained. Better to massacre them than to turn them into queerats.

Nequam said:

If PK isn't genetic, then PKness will show up in non-PK populations anyways, which means that they wouldn't of needed to remove said population. They could have just inserted DFB.
If PK is genetic (as suggested with only allowing PK users to survive), then that means they could have removed PK and prevented humans being the greatest enemies of themselves.

I can think of two reasons why.
1. Same reason why we can't rid of nuclear weapons. With the non-PK humans they could have just killed most of them and changed the genome of the few remaining. Seeing how they reproduce queerats could have come from just 2 humans.
Unless they were willing to massacre large numbers of PK users first, simultaneously disarming all of them of their PK may have been impractical. Even a few slipping through the cracks could prove disastrous and they would have no way to fight back since they disarmed themselves. It would oPnly hurt them unless it was 100% effective which was impossible.

2. They couldn't remove PK from their genome. We don't know how much they could actually manipulate human genes. PK is kind of obscure anyway. It randomly appeared in the year 2010, not in only 1 person but in several different people around the world and unless we assume that it's hereditary it doesn't make sense.
Mar 24, 2013 6:33 AM

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steaminferno said:
Nequam said:
Why did they put the effort through to remove non-PK people and make them moles instead?
I can't understand why the author let this go unexplained. Better to massacre them than to turn them into queerats.
Remember a living slave is better than a dead slave.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Mar 24, 2013 6:33 AM

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113
Mars of Destruction....

......Fin
Mar 24, 2013 6:36 AM

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10121
Nequam said:
In episode 12, we see that Tomoko says K.Demons genetically alter everyone's DNA around them via aura
Later on we know that all users leak aura but the effects remain negligible, but K. Demons seem to cause "bad spills"
But as I said, the aura leaked by humans is supposed to flow out of village. Karma Demon's case is he has no control over his leak and so change everything, from non-living objects to living organisms, around him.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Mar 24, 2013 6:43 AM

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10121
Nequam said:
If DFB is inhibited like you said, then that means the DFB gene must be defective
- If DFB gene is defective, then they can screen all individuals for fiendness traits
- Thus no need of "bad cats"
- Tomoko did not assert such a theory, thus we cannot be sure if DFB is genetic
- But DFB is genetic as stated in earlier episodes of scientists trying to come up with a solution, and every child in this village having DFB
- Since DFB is independent of using PK as you said, there's no reason to remove non-PK users (from the academy and their village), since DFB is hereditary and every parent is a PK user, so their offspring are either non-PK or PK
- Which means they did introduce DFB to non-PK users, even if inadvertently
- Why treat non-PK users non-equivalently, non-PK users from PK parents are disposed of but non-PK users in the past were "moled"
- If PK is not genetic, why remove non-PK users, since PK incidence is random
- Suggesting PKness is probabilistically related to having PK parents, since only PK were allowed to survive
Assuming you are talking about Fiend here. I do not see why you can draw any conclusion that DFB gene is or is not defective for human if fiend is a human with no functioning DFB. I don't think things are this simple, like "DFB is all in one gene, and if it is inherited then everyone will have DFB working just fine" All we know is DFB are passed down and inherited but we are not sure whether we can even isolate a DFB gene using our current technology and understanding of genetics. It goes back to what I said earlier, we are speculating over the science in a far future world, and trying to apply our science understanding to this future science is tricky. At the end the situation we have is
- DFB is supposed to be inherited
- DFB may not function well
- So DFB needs to be tested and checked
- Any kid who cannot show his DFB is working must be eliminated
That's it.
symbvMar 24, 2013 6:58 AM
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Mar 24, 2013 6:46 AM
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symbv said:
Nequam said:
If DFB is inhibited like you said, then that means the DFB gene must be defective
- If DFB gene is defective, then they can screen all individuals for fiendness traits
- Thus no need of "bad cats"
- Tomoko did not assert such a theory, thus we cannot be sure if DFB is genetic
- But DFB is genetic as stated in earlier episodes of scientists trying to come up with a solution, and every child in this village having DFB
- Since DFB is independent of using PK as you said, there's no reason to remove non-PK users (from the academy and their village), since DFB is hereditary and every parent is a PK user, so their offspring are either non-PK or PK
- Which means they did introduce DFB to non-PK users, even if inadvertently
- Why treat non-PK users non-equivalently, non-PK users from PK parents are disposed of but non-PK users in the past were "moled"
- If PK is not genetic, why remove non-PK users, since PK incidence is random
- Suggesting PKness is probabilistically related to having PK parents, since only PK were allowed to survive
Assuming you are talking about Fiend here. I do not see why you can draw any conclusion that DFB gene is or is not defective for human if fiend is a human with no functioning DFB. I don't think things are this simple, like "DFB is all in one gene, and if it is inherited then everyone will have DFB working just fine" All we know is DFB are passed down and inherited but we are not sure whether we can even isolate a DFB gene using our current technology and understanding of genetics. It goes back to what I said earlier, we are speculating over the science in a far future world, and trying to apply our science understanding to this future science is tricky. At the end the situation we have is
- DFB is supposed to be inherited
- DFB may not function well
- So DFB needs to be tested and checked
- Any kid who cannot show his DFB is working must be eliminated
That's it.


Alright I accept that DFB is not unconditionally expressed.

However, why did non-PK users of PK parents get removed?

If some can't show DFB, then they are removed.

So that means both non-PK and PK would both be subjected to DFB testing, but the former group is not entirely bad.

NequamMar 24, 2013 7:00 AM
Mar 24, 2013 6:58 AM

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Nequam said:

Alright I accept that DFB is not unconditionally expressed.

However, why did non-PK users of PK parents get removed?

If some can't show DFB, then they are removed.

So that means both non-PK and PK would both be subjected to DFB testing, but the former group is not entirely bad.


- If DFB gene is defective, then they can screen all individuals for fiendness traits

If it is this simple, they would not have needed the DFB test at a kid's rite of passage ceremony.

- Thus no need of "bad cats"

Bad cats is used to kill not just potential fiend, but other kids deemed not fit to grow up to adult (Saki's sister, Reiko, Mamoru etc).

- But DFB is genetic as stated in earlier episodes of scientists trying to come up with a solution, and every child in this village having DFB

I would say DFB is inherited but how complicated DFB expresses itself via genes we are not sure.

- Since DFB is independent of using PK as you said, there's no reason to remove non-PK users (from the academy and their village), since DFB is hereditary and every parent is a PK user, so their offspring are either non-PK or PK

Basically anybody not being able to use PK are deemed not worthy to join human society. It does not have to do with fear of fiend or concern over DFB or whatever.

- Which means they did introduce DFB to non-PK users, even if inadvertently

I don't think DFB was ever introduced to non-PK human in the past.

- Why treat non-PK users non-equivalently, non-PK users from PK parents are disposed of but non-PK users in the past were "moled"

The skills to "mole" non-PK human no longer exist in present time. Also the thinking may have changed over the years. The sensibility of the times in the past may have encouraged the thinking to "mole" non-PK human. Such thinking does not seem to have any currency in the present time.

- If PK is not genetic, why remove non-PK users, since PK incidence is random

We never know how genetic or hereditary PK is, but by the time of novel it seems more likely than not a human kid will develop PK. However, still not every kid is able to develop PK and those who cannot are eliminated.

- Suggesting PKness is probabilistically related to having PK parents, since only PK were allowed to survive

In fact I suspect one reason why human population does not grow as fast as queerat population is human needs to be so selective in who can grow up to be adults.
symbvMar 24, 2013 7:04 AM
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Mar 24, 2013 7:02 AM
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symbv said:
Nequam said:

Alright I accept that DFB is not unconditionally expressed.

However, why did non-PK users of PK parents get removed?

If some can't show DFB, then they are removed.

So that means both non-PK and PK would both be subjected to DFB testing, but the former group is not entirely bad.


- If DFB gene is defective, then they can screen all individuals for fiendness traits

If it is this simple, they would not have needed the DFB test at a kid's rite of passage ceremony.

- Thus no need of "bad cats"

Bad cats is used to kill not just potential fiend, but other kids deemed not fit to grow up to adult (Saki's sister, Reiko, Mamoru etc).

- But DFB is genetic as stated in earlier episodes of scientists trying to come up with a solution, and every child in this village having DFB

I would say DFB is inherited but how complicated DFB expresses itself via genes we are not sure.

- Since DFB is independent of using PK as you said, there's no reason to remove non-PK users (from the academy and their village), since DFB is hereditary and every parent is a PK user, so their offspring are either non-PK or PK

Basically anybody not being able to use PK are deemed not worthy to join human society. It does not have to do with fear of fiend or concern over DFB or whatever.

- Which means they did introduce DFB to non-PK users, even if inadvertently

I don't think DFB was ever introduced to non-PK human in the past.

- Why treat non-PK users non-equivalently, non-PK users from PK parents are disposed of but non-PK users in the past were "moled"

The skills to "mole" non-PK human no longer exist in present time. Also the thinking may have changed over the years. The sensibility of the times in the past may have encouraged the thinking to "mole" non-PK human. Such thinking does not seem to have any currency in the present time.

- If PK is not genetic, why remove non-PK users, since PK incidence is random

We never know how genetic or hereditary PK is, but by the time of novel it seems more likely than not a human kid will develop PK.

- Suggesting PKness is probabilistically related to having PK parents, since only PK were allowed to survive

In fact I suspect one reason why human population does not grow as fast as queerat population is human needs to be so selective in who can grow up to be adults.


So to summarize
- Non PK not worthy to be human, kill
- Weak-willed and not strong PK, kill
- PK not shown DFB, kill
- PK suspected to be fiend, kill
- PK might be false demon, kill
Mar 24, 2013 7:06 AM
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Started out as one of my more anticipated series of the season by the end it was pretty much my most hated.
The artwork/scenery was beautiful.
The characters were blah, had a hard time getting attached to any of them with the exception of Kiroumaru he was cool. And Saki...I don't understand how someone with power can be so useless.
That last episode had me a wee upset. By that time I was sided with Squealer, he had a reason to do what he did and to punish him so cruelly was awful. The humans pretty much stayed arrogant and ignorant for the entire series, wtf is that?
3/10
Mar 24, 2013 7:08 AM

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Nequam said:
So to summarize
- Non PK not worthy to be human, kill
- Weak-willed and not strong PK, kill
- PK not shown DFB, kill
- PK suspected to be fiend, kill
- PK might be false demon, kill

I changed the wording from "not worthy to be human" to "not worthy of joining human society" but just a nuance change.

There are also other situations when kill can happen

- PK breaking important rules set by ethics committee, kill
- PK displaying a mindset that indicate he may grow up to break rules and cheat, kill
- PK who cannot control his power well, kill

Of course all these are referring to human kids.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Mar 24, 2013 7:11 AM

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Jun 2009
6393
Nequam said:

So to summarize
- Non PK not worthy to be human, kill
- Weak-willed and not strong PK, kill
- PK not shown DFB, kill
- PK suspected to be fiend, kill
- PK might be false demon, kill


1. Yes, to maintain a PK society and to prevent normals from crying unfair and develop malicious thoughts
2. Yes, Same reason as 1.
3. Yes, it'll mean that they're "dangerous" as they are either messed up genetically or psychologically disrespect human life. (They have PK too, so that makes them as dangerous as a fiend)
4. Look at 3.
5. Again, you do not want people who don't have death feedback to move around unchecked.


They're just trying to protect themselves. Though their method can be questionable, but it's been working.
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Mar 24, 2013 9:01 AM

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Bittersweet ending, the best kind and maybe the only possible good end in life.
It's hard to find out the truth about things and how they work and still go on, this series pretty much shows this. It is even harder to believe there is a way to change it and make it happen. Again, Shinsekai yori is about that too.
Saki is an amazing character, one of the best I've ever seen. Intelligent, sensitive, strong (very), perceptive, kind...
And the best kind of story always makes you wonder how much the good is actually good and the bad is actually bad. Squealer is not bad at all. Humans are not good at all. And you get the feeling that you don't know which of them you really want to win. If it is possible to win, of course. I get the feeling in this last episode that there is not a winner and Saki confirms that.
Shinsekai yori is a great and intelligent story (and very different from most of things we watch/read) and this last episode didn't disappoint. :)
Mar 24, 2013 9:30 AM

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48251
9.6/10 > 9/10

Great series. Great characters. Great plot.

Liked the last episode all in all. 4/5
My OTP got together yaaaay. :3 I wanna see their children though :V

I had a couple of issues with some episodes and it's directing. Kind of abrupt with the scene changes. Some things were dragged too much. Not that many problems to be honest. A couple of plot holes but not too big.

---

Also gotta compliment the soundtrack. It's not about the music compositions but more like, they pick the right ones to fit in with each scene. That's what makes Shinsekai's music so boss. :)

I love the character designs, even if the animation got weird in a couple of episodes. I'm gonna try to find the BD Fix ones when I decide to rewatch this show. ARE THERE ANY OTHER SHOWS WITH SHINSEKAI ART? PLEASE TELL ME. lol
MayukaMar 24, 2013 9:34 AM
Mar 24, 2013 11:58 AM

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I love how this score for this anime used to be 7.8~~ something and now its 8.20~ something. :)

Mar 24, 2013 12:32 PM
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I'm surprised that so many people were shocked by the reveal that the Queerats were humans, I thought it was implied rather heavily throughout the series (pretty much every time Saki kills one she mentions that it's almost like killing humans, we never got an explanation of what happened to the people without PK, etc.), although I thought the mechanism for the change was more like cantus leakage (people with PK think of themselves as above people without PK, and these subconscious feelings manifest themselves by changing the non-PK people).

I also like how the score has jumped up in the last 24 hours, it's at 8.23 now. Hopefully it'll keep rising and get to 8.5ish to be in the top 100. To get into the top 100 even with all the people who gave it a low score and dropped it after episode 8 because the sight of two guys kissing makes them have a meltdown is all I can ask for.
Mar 24, 2013 12:34 PM

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Loved it!!!!!!!!!!!!



Gave this anime a 10/10~ :D



Mar 24, 2013 1:19 PM

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lj167 said:
I'm surprised that so many people were shocked by the reveal that the Queerats were humans

That is simple :
It was meant to make it obvious at ep 4 , but that is why the reveal was so great.
Why? Bc everybody forgot about it , we all thought it was bc of cantus leakage and we didnt care about it, but when it was revealed after the war (during which we were all discriminating them bc we fought they were just pissed off beasts ) it was a real kick in the balls since after it we were all questioning our morals
Mar 24, 2013 1:19 PM

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Was a good 22 epsides - 8.
But at times, it was a little to slow paced for my tastes.
At the same time, I would recomment this to other people who haven't seen the show yet.
Mar 24, 2013 1:20 PM

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macamiki said:
lj167 said:
I'm surprised that so many people were shocked by the reveal that the Queerats were humans

That is simple :
It was meant to make it obvious at ep 4 , but that is why the reveal was so great.
Why? Bc everybody forgot about it , we all thought it was bc of cantus leakage and we didnt care about it, but when it was revealed after the war (during which we were all discriminating them bc we fought they were just pissed off beasts ) it was a real kick in the balls since after it we were all questioning our morals


^^This^^
"whats so special about bonzai trees?"
"They are the loli of the tree world."

Inganock of the Brightest Flame
Mar 24, 2013 1:23 PM

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macamiki said:
lj167 said:
I'm surprised that so many people were shocked by the reveal that the Queerats were humans

That is simple :
It was meant to make it obvious at ep 4 , but that is why the reveal was so great.
Why? Bc everybody forgot about it , we all thought it was bc of cantus leakage and we didnt care about it, but when it was revealed after the war (during which we were all discriminating them bc we fought they were just pissed off beasts ) it was a real kick in the balls since after it we were all questioning our morals


I agree, I was almost sure the queerats were a result of human experimentation at the beginning, then I forgot completely about it because of the cantus leakage stuff. When it was all revealed I shouted "I WAS RIGHT WHY DID I FORGOT ABOUT THIS?"
Mar 24, 2013 1:23 PM

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Wow, what an amazing ending, I wish the series would have lasted longer!
The ending was just so good and well put together
Mar 24, 2013 1:24 PM

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162
What a rollercoaster ride! The first few episodes were very confusing, but as the anime progressed, the mysteries were explained. Actually I do agree that most of the characters were a little "meh", but I feel like the story was more plot driven and thought provoking than character driven. Kiroumaru and Squealer were devious and interesting characters. Even near the end, I couldn't tell whether Kiroumaru would betray the humans or not, and I don't think the plot progression was obvious overall, which is a good thing.

I loved the depth of this futuristic world. The humans were put in a shitty situation 1000 years ago. I'm not sure what else they could've done to guarantee the survival of the human race. Their current culture is extremely different from ours, and I think that people who were scared off by the few minutes of yuri/yaoi are immature and missing out. In the end, this is one of the animes I looked forward to watching every week. The music was good and the story was entertaining and not obvious. Definitely one of the best animes of this season.
Mar 24, 2013 1:34 PM

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Want the novels translated? Like this page and maybe Vertical will do it.

http://vertical-inc.tumblr.com/post/42116170457/any-chances-of-seeing-a-from-the-new-world-translation
Mar 24, 2013 3:19 PM

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I think most of us are confusing about Death Feed Back(DFB). To make simple and easily understandable, DFB is not a perfect mechanic and that should be one of the reason why their ancestors never try to explain it because it has a flaw in it and to prevent people from abusing it. To be precisely, a human can actually kill another human without receiving a DFB, on the other hand a human can still receive DFB without even have to kill another human, which was demonstrated in this episode.

So how is DFB work? IMO, it should work just like human's expression. Lets say, 2 people one is American and another one is Asian were watching "Family Guys" but only one of them are laughing because only American people can understand those jokes(just an example and please don't quote me on this one). Which mean if you don't react to the killing you will be fine but how many people who could actually resist from laughing when they find something is funny? You really have to have what it takes to achieve that.

In this episode you can see that Saki would have died if she still insist on believing she was also the one who killed "Akki" but she escaped DFB with just a simple trick to her mind.



As for the show, Shinsekia Yori and Shiki are the best of its kind.


"A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie."
Mar 24, 2013 4:43 PM

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142
Well, that was an epic ending. Great characters and the best story I'd seen in years, deserves a solid 10/10.






Mar 24, 2013 4:58 PM

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131
I question some people's ability to rate a show. Someone removed 1 point because one episode they did not like. Does that really justify it?

Then again, 84.328935% of the idiots on MAL knock off points of endings because it's not how they wanted it or a particular scene. Honestly if these people wanted to have it their way, either go to BK or write their own story.

Katagari said:
Started out as one of my more anticipated series of the season by the end it was pretty much my most hated.
The artwork/scenery was beautiful.
The characters were blah, had a hard time getting attached to any of them with the exception of Kiroumaru he was cool. And Saki...I don't understand how someone with power can be so useless.
That last episode had me a wee upset. By that time I was sided with Squealer, he had a reason to do what he did and to punish him so cruelly was awful. The humans pretty much stayed arrogant and ignorant for the entire series, wtf is that?
3/10


Such an ignorant post. What's the point in read/watching things if you want it your way.

One of the main plots of the story IS the fact that us humans are contradictory and we are scum. Humans killing other humans because x reason and y reason. Don't you go outside or something? You can remove Queerrats and pretend they are normal non-pk humans and it's the same results.

We humans, as a collective race, are scum. There's a lot of good humans but a lot of bad ones too. We don't like other intelligent beings correcting us nor like to share our world. Watch Shiki.

I'm not sure if you actually watched the anime or understood anything.
Kan_BiiruMar 24, 2013 5:05 PM
Mar 24, 2013 5:08 PM

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131
Siva said:
I think most of us are confusing about Death Feed Back(DFB). To make simple and easily understandable, DFB is not a perfect mechanic and that should be one of the reason why their ancestors never try to explain it because it has a flaw in it and to prevent people from abusing it. To be precisely, a human can actually kill another human without receiving a DFB, on the other hand a human can still receive DFB without even have to kill another human, which was demonstrated in this episode.

So how is DFB work? IMO, it should work just like human's expression. Lets say, 2 people one is American and another one is Asian were watching "Family Guys" but only one of them are laughing because only American people can understand those jokes(just an example and please don't quote me on this one). Which mean if you don't react to the killing you will be fine but how many people who could actually resist from laughing when they find something is funny? You really have to have what it takes to achieve that.

In this episode you can see that Saki would have died if she still insist on believing she was also the one who killed "Akki" but she escaped DFB with just a simple trick to her mind.



As for the show, Shinsekia Yori and Shiki are the best of its kind.


What you forgot to mention is, in my theory, that since Queerats have 23 Chromosomes just like humans, it's a lot easier to trick the human genome thinking that he/she is a queerat and not a human. The genome is hardcoded into the DNA and the DNA knows what it wants to be unless a mutation occurs.

If he thought he was a cat or land shark, he would most likely still be effected by DFB. But, since it clearly says Queerats have 23 pairs of chromosomes like humans, it's a lot easier to trick.
Mar 24, 2013 5:42 PM

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symbv said:
steaminferno said:
Nequam said:
Why did they put the effort through to remove non-PK people and make them moles instead?
I can't understand why the author let this go unexplained. Better to massacre them than to turn them into queerats.
Remember a living slave is better than a dead slave.


Why is this not clear for you guys ? Cantus people were at war with non cantus people. They COULDNT kill them because of death feedback. That's why they turned them into rats. And STILL they couldn't kill them as rats because they knew they were human originally. So they HID the fact that the humans without cantus were transformed so that future generations, like Saki's generation, wouldn't know about this and be able to slay the rats without any death feedback.
This explaines probably why they kept everything a secret and why they were firbidding everyone to learn things about the past. Because then, they wouldn't be able to kill the queerats anymore, knowing they were human.

But here is the genious question of the season:
If they turned normal people to rats and hid it, how come Saki, who found out the truth and knew Squealer was human in the end... was able to kill him without death feedback ?
Mar 24, 2013 6:43 PM

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1265
Ttippy shit, great series tho.



8/10
Mar 24, 2013 7:46 PM

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57
I was at first skeptical in watching this for the first several episodes but as it continued, the story got more interesting. I really enjoyed watching it every week and absolutely enjoyed the ending!


"The world cannot be changed with pretty words alone." ~ Lelouch Lamperouge (Code Geass)
Mar 24, 2013 9:24 PM

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10121
macamiki said:
lj167 said:
I'm surprised that so many people were shocked by the reveal that the Queerats were humans
That is simple :
It was meant to make it obvious at ep 4 , but that is why the reveal was so great.
But the fact is, the anime made a mistake of making that idea look suggestive at ep.4 (a really big mistake I would say) because that scene is not supposed to suggest that and is meant to show something else. It would have been a disaster if this fact (queerats were human) was revealed this early because it changed a lot of perspective and thinking you would have following the show. Fortunately, as many people said here, they forgot about it later and so still got the shock when it is revealed at the ending, but this is really not what is supposed to happen. Ep.4 is NOT supposed to reveal the origin of queerats.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Mar 24, 2013 9:35 PM

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Feb 2011
8318
I knew the queerrats were humans!
I'm really happy with the ending and happy for Saki and Satoru.
I might have to make space in my favorites...
Mar 24, 2013 9:42 PM

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41
Masterpiece.

The scene where squealer says that bakenezumi are human and everyone laughs at him is probably the coolest ending I've seen since Code Geass.
Mar 24, 2013 10:09 PM

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113
ok, I have one single thought, not sure if anyone asked this....
If death feedback killed the girl for killing Kiromaru, how in the world was she able to slaughter an ARMY of qeerats way back in the battle of Hornet vs Robber Fly?
Mar 24, 2013 10:16 PM

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10121
Smoku said:
ok, I have one single thought, not sure if anyone asked this....
If death feedback killed the girl for killing Kiromaru, how in the world was she able to slaughter an ARMY of qeerats way back in the battle of Hornet vs Robber Fly?
It has been asked quite a few times already. If you paid attention to what was said in the anime, you should realize that it was never said that she KILLED any queerats. All she seemed to do is to disarm them.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Mar 24, 2013 10:18 PM

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Feb 2009
413
ToriFuda said:

  • If the scientists were able to introduce Death Feedback into the cantus users, why couldn't they introduce Death Feedback into the non-cantus users? This would avoid the need of creating the BNZ. The only thing that comes to mind is that the non-cantus users felt this to be an unfair way to deal with the cantus users and eventually the cantus users had to conquer the non-cantus users and rage simply lead to the creation of the BNZ as atrocities.


  • Death feedback requires they have Cantus for it to work. When they realize they've killed their Cantus forcibly stops their own liver function.
    Mar 24, 2013 10:25 PM

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    269
    She didn't, she only disarmed them

    edit: Meh, late answer
    Mar 24, 2013 10:43 PM
    Lilium Gardener

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    3595
    After the first few episodes, I was confused, the story was slow, and I figured this was a 6/10 series. Then the time skip came and this show really took off. It got better and better each week and I couldn't wait for the next episode to come out. So glad I didn't give up on this show. It was easily a 9/10 for me.
    Mar 24, 2013 11:04 PM
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    42
    Show definitely had its ups and downs but the last several episodes made up for them. Brilliant story with decent execution by the staff that made this. 9/10
    Mar 24, 2013 11:57 PM

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    1240
    10/10

    I always had high hopes for the anime, and sure it wasn't perfect but it was still very very good. It never failed to bring progressions every week. The nice thing about this was also that the ending wasn't cliffhanging or it didn't leave you with that sense of nothingness and SatoruxSaki!!

    Although I would pretty much like to see how the new civilization will turn out with Saki, and the new kids and queerats.

    I need to rewatch this.


    My forum picture is awesome. #sorrynotsorry (tumblr)

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