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| daww all the non-manga readers are cluing in :) waayyy to many flashbacks for my taste. I'm glad they kept this very close to the manga though (except for the number of flashbacks). |
NaruleachDec 19, 2009 10:46 PM
p r o f i l e 👀 |
| It is fairly to say that what Madara said is 99.99% true because there is no other way to say he lied about what happened during the first Hokage. About the controlling Kyubi, there is no question about Madara can control it or not. Have you forgotten what Jiraiya said to the frog before he met Pain? He mentioned about Kyubi was being controlled to atk Konoha which led to a question that the frog said the one that can control Kyubi has already been dead and the person in question was Madara. |
 "A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie." |
| I'm not saying that he is lying per se. Just that he is omitting something really basic to the whole story. His motivation. What does he have to gain by telling Sasuke that Itachi was actually trying to protect him? What exactly happened between the two of them? I think the real question is why exactly did he use the Kyuubi? What exactly was he after that night that Naruto was born? Jiraiya, though a very wise character, wasn't in the know at all about the situation. He knew as much as we did at that point since it had been stated that the Kyuubi only feared Madara. The only people who know are the people who have been pressuring Tsunade to take specific actions. |
noteDhero said: I'm not saying that he is lying per se. Just that he is omitting something really basic to the whole story. His motivation. What does he have to gain by telling Sasuke that Itachi was actually trying to protect him? What exactly happened between the two of them? I think the real question is why exactly did he use the Kyuubi? What exactly was he after that night that Naruto was born? Jiraiya, though a very wise character, wasn't in the know at all about the situation. He knew as much as we did at that point since it had been stated that the Kyuubi only feared Madara. The only people who know are the people who have been pressuring Tsunade to take specific actions. What does he have to gain? Isn't it obvious? According to Madara everything Itachi did was orders from Konoha. Itachi loved Konoha, he even killed his clan and his family and let his brother hate him just to protect the village and he obviously didn't tell his little brother the truth because he didn't want him to hate Konoha. On the other hand Madara is like an enemy of Itachi because he hates Konoha and now by telling Sasuke the truth he will manage to make him hate Konoha because they made him hate Itachi, they gave the orders to destroy the Uchiha clan and basically sacrificed his brother. So in other words by telling him the truth Sasuke will hate Konoha like Madara does and he will be on his team. That's why Itachi didn't want Madara to talk to Sasuke and he put that activation Amaterasu the moment he will see his sharingan. As about the Kyuubi. Well Madara says he didn't use it that night Naruto was born and that the Kyuubi was acting by it's own. According to him he only used it the first time when he fought the first Hokage, the second time he had nothing to do with it but despite that fact the second appearance of the Kyuubi against Konoha put things in motion so that the Uchiha will be suspected and get unfriendly treatment with the resold of them thinking revolution against the village and Itachi acting as a village spy against his own clan. Jiraiya suspected that even the second time it was a work of Madara but Madara says that is not. The only one who really knows is Madara and we don't know if his lying or not. As you said Jiraiya was just making a hypothesis like we do. He didn't really knew. |
| I understand Madara's train of thought in telling Sasuke, but he seems perceptive enough to know that just telling Sasuke about the truth regarding Itachi isn't enough to sway him over to his side. At least, that's how I see Sasuke as a character. Sasuke still firmly holds his morals in place despite working under Orochimaru all this time. He has yet to kill an innocent person for the sake of his goals. I feel like if Sasuke really is going to go the route of Itachi or Madara, then he still needs a bigger push in that direction than just knowing that the brother he loved and respected really wasn't the type of person to murder for no good reason. Maybe Madara isn't aware of that and is hedging his bets, or maybe he knows that Danzou and the elders intend to kill Sasuke, and that will be what final straw. |
Monad said: Madara didn't say he was the one who was using Kyuubi that night but he never denied it either.As about the Kyuubi. Well Madara says he didn't use it that night Naruto was born and that the Kyuubi was acting by it's own. According to him he only used it the first time when he fought the first Hokage, the second time he had nothing to do with it but despite that fact the second appearance of the Kyuubi against Konoha put things in motion so that the Uchiha will be suspected and get unfriendly treatment with the resold of them thinking revolution against the village and Itachi acting as a village spy against his own clan. Jiraiya suspected that even the second time it was a work of Madara but Madara says that is not. The only one who really knows is Madara and we don't know if his lying or not. As you said Jiraiya was just making a hypothesis like we do. He didn't really knew. noteDhero said: I think you should hold onto this first until you saw the next episode. You are going to learn more drama about Itachi in the next episode.I understand Madara's train of thought in telling Sasuke, but he seems perceptive enough to know that just telling Sasuke about the truth regarding Itachi isn't enough to sway him over to his side. At least, that's how I see Sasuke as a character. Sasuke still firmly holds his morals in place despite working under Orochimaru all this time. He has yet to kill an innocent person for the sake of his goals. I feel like if Sasuke really is going to go the route of Itachi or Madara, then he still needs a bigger push in that direction than just knowing that the brother he loved and respected really wasn't the type of person to murder for no good reason. Maybe Madara isn't aware of that and is hedging his bets, or maybe he knows that Danzou and the elders intend to kill Sasuke, and that will be what final straw. |
"A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie." |
| Oh? Well then I guess I'm done now:D |
noteDhero said: I understand Madara's train of thought in telling Sasuke, but he seems perceptive enough to know that just telling Sasuke about the truth regarding Itachi isn't enough to sway him over to his side. At least, that's how I see Sasuke as a character. Sasuke still firmly holds his morals in place despite working under Orochimaru all this time. He has yet to kill an innocent person for the sake of his goals. I feel like if Sasuke really is going to go the route of Itachi or Madara, then he still needs a bigger push in that direction than just knowing that the brother he loved and respected really wasn't the type of person to murder for no good reason. Maybe Madara isn't aware of that and is hedging his bets, or maybe he knows that Danzou and the elders intend to kill Sasuke, and that will be what final straw. I think you fail to see where Sasuke is exactly. Sure he kept his morals but how does that make him choose Konoha over Madara? According to Madara's story Konoha aren't exactly the good guys ether. They took advantage of a guy who had a strong sense of duty(Itachi) and turn him in to a killer so they can commit genocide and still seem like they have there hands clean. Sure if there was a revolution on there head they had to act but they brought it to themselves by not treating them well. Now Sasuke never had problems killing if it was about his revenge. The guy lived all his life to take that revenge and now he learns that he was toyed with and his revenge was against the wrong person who was also the person he loved most and the cause of huge pain. If he thought Itachi was evil before and wanted to kill him despite how much he loved him, imagine how he feels now that he was double played with by Konoha. Konoha did much worse things to him that what he thought Itachi did to him before. Not only they are responcible for killing everyone he loved and destroying his clan but they are also responcible for his hate against his brother and sending him in a fake revenge. And he doesn't even love them as much as he did his brother. So basically he didn't even take his revenge yet. Now if that's not enough motive to make him go on a killing spree against them, i don't know what is. Not to mention after killing his brother he probably doesn't care about not killing now. Remember they say after you killed one you have already made your hands dirty. If anything can drive him over the top is this freaky story about what happen and what Konoha did to his clan, his brother and him. Madara doesn't expect Sasuke to say "oh you are such a nice guy you've been fucked by them like me i want to be friends". He expect him to ally with him not because he likes him but because he hates Konoha a whole lot more. Sure Sasuke could think: "My brother died protecting the village i should respect his wishes". But to you honestly see Sasuke as a guy that would give up on his revenge against the people responsible for the killing of his clan and now even his brother? Wasn't he always a vindictive character? |
| I think you're underestimating Sasuke's ability to compartmentalize. I never said Sasuke would or should choose Konoha over Madara. I'm saying that the story isn't enough for him to choose to destroy the whole of Konoha. And also that Sasuke is clever enough to discern that Madara isn't just being nice for Sasuke's sake. Is it enough for him to want to kill the elders and Danzou? Yes. But as I've stated, and as we've seen from the show, the elders have not been on good terms with the Third, the Fifth, and presumably the Fourth Hokages, and have been colluding in secret. That fact alone would be enough to keep him from having a personal vendetta against the whole village. Then we also have the fact that he has personal ties with most everyone there, and regardless of what he has said, his actions to me prove that he loves Konoha. Sasuke has continued to tow the line between good and evil as an anti-hero of the show. It's going to take more than just this story for me to accept his teaming up with Madara to destroy the whole of the village. Siva says there's more, and I'm eager to hear it. |
noteDhero said: I think you're underestimating Sasuke's ability to compartmentalize. I never said Sasuke would or should choose Konoha over Madara. I'm saying that the story isn't enough for him to choose to destroy the whole of Konoha. And also that Sasuke is clever enough to discern that Madara isn't just being nice for Sasuke's sake. Is it enough for him to want to kill the elders and Danzou? Yes. But as I've stated, and as we've seen from the show, the elders have not been on good terms with the Third, the Fifth, and presumably the Fourth Hokages, and have been colluding in secret. That fact alone would be enough to keep him from having a personal vendetta against the whole village. Then we also have the fact that he has personal ties with most everyone there, and regardless of what he has said, his actions to me prove that he loves Konoha. Sasuke has continued to tow the line between good and evil as an anti-hero of the show. It's going to take more than just this story for me to accept his teaming up with Madara to destroy the whole of the village. Siva says there's more, and I'm eager to hear it. Well i don't know if he will decide to kill even Konoha citizens or not but he surely is gonna go after Danzou and the elders isn't he? And that makes things even more complicated because Konoha until now considered him something like a small traitor but not as a huge threat they need to eliminate at all cost. But if he goes and kills important people at the village isn't it safe to assume that they will go all out on his ass sending every ninja against him? And isn't that gonna lead to more battles and him fighting the ninjas of Konoha? So he will basically go on a war against them. |
MonadDec 20, 2009 11:58 AM
| This is the main thing that I wonder about. It all really depends on time. I feel like Tsunade has been making exceptional choices about who to surround Naruto with, thus exposing them outside of Danzou's reach. She doesn't appreciate him at all, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if she foresees conflict of some sort popping up from him, if not the elders also. That said, she definitely will have to contend with Saskue if he chooses to openly pursue them in that way any time soon. It all hinges on time. It's great dramatic structure like this that people don't give credit to Naruto for, instead whining about a lot of the more superficial components of the show. That this series allows me to talk about it in this way is something that I haven't experienced in shounen at all. |
noteDhero said: It's great dramatic structure like this that people don't give credit to Naruto for, instead whining about a lot of the more superficial components of the show. That this series allows me to talk about it in this way is something that I haven't experienced in shounen at all. This is quite right, but there is a small problem in this. Problem being Naruto only has few episodes here and there where it's really possible to comment like this, others being either fillers or Naruto's whining about Sasuke or his abilities or his past or something fourth. Sasuke (so far) has been one of the few people in this show who has constantly done the "same thing", being loyal to his friends up until the point where it crosses his vendetta against Itachi. Than he went against their desires, but still kept his calm, and his moral standards as previously stated. As far as story told by Madara goes, well, unlike you, I find it possible for Sasuke to go with Akatsuki because of it. However, unlike other Akatsuki members, I think that even if he joins them, he will do so under his own conditions, much like something he had with Orochimaru. He doesn't kill innocents, but he gets to kill his enemies who are also enemies of Akatsuki. And about that not being acceptable, I think Madara wants him too badly to not accept. Damn, I just realised, if story were to follow Sasuke instead of Naruto, this show would have been much more interesting. |
| I agree. It's totally fine for the first half to be about Naruto, but this second half should have been about Sauske. It feels more like his story than anyone elses...the exceptions being Azuma's arc and Jiraiya's tale. If Shippuuden were told from his perspective, I could have dealt with Naruto's idiocy, and a lot of the heavier stuff on his side would have felt more weighty. I don't count the filler at all when I make comments like this, but taking in just the plot points of the filler, they don't disturb the universe in the way that Bleach's does, so I'm happy about that in the least. I see how for a lot of people, Sasuke going evil is totally possible in this instance. I think that has more to do with the care that goes into his characterization that valid opinions on his future actions can be made on both sides. I'll accept him being "evil" if it comes to pass, but a good chunk of me would be surprised if he ended up betraying them like he did Orochimaru. The thing I like about Sasuke best is something that either he or Suigetsu mentioned during the summer: He likes to move in a straight line, not caring about what's in his way. He'll always take the more convenient route to seeing his goals accomplished, caring little for the people around him that is affected, while still not wanting to hurt them in the way that he has been hurt. Characters like him, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Gaara, now Pain, and to a smaller extent Shikamaru, Neji, and Hinata are what I appreciate most in the show. They're thoroughly fleshed out and grounded in their actions to the point that they steal the show from Naruto every time. |
| Personally, I really hate Orochimaru not because of his character being evil but for what they did to him. The first thing I hate the most in a show is a character that can NOT be killed or you have to kill him countless times. My question is WHY? There is one in Inuyasha and one in 2 here but I don't hate Madara that much since he never bother me to begin with. The reason is everytime there is a death-life battler between this kind of character I always ask myself, what is the point? when he is not going to be dead? As for Tsunade, since she became the fifth she is closing to being an useless character. |
"A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie." |
| And this is where my blind faith in the series comes to play, lol: Basically, I hope that Orochimaru does bite it soon and get the type of ending he deserves, because as a character he surpasses most of the ones in his archetype. Also, I just like his design. With Tsunade, I really do think that she has been taking proper measures against Danzou and the elders this whole time. I think that's specifically why Jiraiya saw her more fit for the job. |
| Great episode. |
 |
noteDhero said: It's great dramatic structure like this that people don't give credit to Naruto for, instead whining about a lot of the more superficial components of the show. That this series allows me to talk about it in this way is something that I haven't experienced in shounen at all. Couldn't have put it better myself! Well played. |
gloryfy said: i kno -.-RulenneClarissa said: Double episode ; double week ~.~linkinpark4175 said: They gotta quit stopping it at the best part >.> or at least make it double episode so its more fun :D yeah, I kinda agree but, to me at least, it's usualy worth the wait. I prefer to get the bulk done in a large chunk rather than a bunch of small pieces, so that i end up going back to make sure i'm still on track with what's happening |
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| Another great episode, now Sasuke is like WTF.... Can't wait to see the part where Mod edit: Added spoiler tags |
NayahDec 25, 2009 8:52 AM
| that was alot of info. >.< but it was very useful because now things are now starting to come together. |
     |
| Awesome episode! The truth of the Uchiha is finally told! I really liked it how Madara was able to survive the Amaterasu ^^ |
 |
| Blah blah blah. :< Too much talk. |
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.~ |
| Tobi's taking too long recounting all that, but I guess it's a long story I wonder though, how someone with a perfect mangekyou sharingan lost to the first He must've been the strongest ninja on history to beat Madara I still kinda think Tobi might be Obito, maybe they brainwashed him |
| "The weak get washed away by the tides of fate...The strong drink it up."-Godot |
| konaha seems like a bad place |
 Behold of my awesomeness~ controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted. But my feels. |
| Sasuke has been my favourite anime character for soooo long... and I've always hated Itachi for what he did... but now there could happen a change.. I'm starting to like Itachi... and to feel sorry for him :( |
| ... I thought it was a great episode? XD Seems there's some debate about that... but there was truly a lot going on in this episode, even though there wasn't a lot "happening" (like fighting or something). Lots of information... and lots of answers to questions about the Uchiha. My whole take on that clan now is totally different. Things that I thought were meant to show the clan's "esteemed" position in the village were really things to show that it was more "suppressed" than "esteemed". Sasuke's mind still looks like it's wandering a bit though, even though he's being told all this. o_O |
noteDhero said: I agree. It's totally fine for the first half to be about Naruto, but this second half should have been about Sauske. It feels more like his story than anyone elses...the exceptions being Azuma's arc and Jiraiya's tale. If Shippuuden were told from his perspective, I could have dealt with Naruto's idiocy, and a lot of the heavier stuff on his side would have felt more weighty. I don't count the filler at all when I make comments like this, but taking in just the plot points of the filler, they don't disturb the universe in the way that Bleach's does, so I'm happy about that in the least. I see how for a lot of people, Sasuke going evil is totally possible in this instance. I think that has more to do with the care that goes into his characterization that valid opinions on his future actions can be made on both sides. I'll accept him being "evil" if it comes to pass, but a good chunk of me would be surprised if he ended up betraying them like he did Orochimaru. The thing I like about Sasuke best is something that either he or Suigetsu mentioned during the summer: He likes to move in a straight line, not caring about what's in his way. He'll always take the more convenient route to seeing his goals accomplished, caring little for the people around him that is affected, while still not wanting to hurt them in the way that he has been hurt. Characters like him, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Gaara, now Pain, and to a smaller extent Shikamaru, Neji, and Hinata are what I appreciate most in the show. They're thoroughly fleshed out and grounded in their actions to the point that they steal the show from Naruto every time. 1000x this! I though like Naruto too, as he is strong in his own way and can be appreciated or even admired in some way like his strong will to never give up or his big loyality (to an extent that it can be called stupid or ridiculous by some, though I admire him for that). But Sasuke is a much more interesting chara, he's like representing the darkest but also the most conflicting, sensitive side of humans, which make ppl either love or hate him. It's nice that Sasuke is still keeping his morals. |
 |
| I can't wait to watch Episodes 141-151 in July! |
 My Anime List | My Video Game Collection Discord ID: KidRyan89 | Telegram ID: KidRyan |
MorningGlory said: THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE. ---------------------------------------- Too much information inputed into my brain..... One last question,Why did Madara join Akatsuki? (i guess manga sure has the answer) I'm pretty sure Madara created the Akatsuki, not just simply joining it. Unless your question is why he created the Akatsuki? Then my answer would be that he has his own ideas of how the world should be run??? i don't know?? just read the manga or keep watching. |
| I'm a Mangaka in training watch me as i make my way to the top!! Wanted: A sensei to teach me and push me in the right direction for being a mangaka |
| I honestly believe everything Madara is saying but every now and then when he looks at sasuke with his eye it just gives me the creeps. |
| I'm a Mangaka in training watch me as i make my way to the top!! Wanted: A sensei to teach me and push me in the right direction for being a mangaka |
| Such an amazing episode. :) |
| Really enjoyed this, some pretty interesting back story and it seems that Tobi really is Madara. On that note Madara is shaping up to be a pretty interesting character, and his desire to protect his clan actually made sense to me. It's too bad he was kicked out of the village, though it's hard to trust everything he says. But, I feel as though his actions will be given context in the future . Not that shocked about Itachi doing the murders for the village. Before his rant about wanting Sasuke's eyes, I got the feeling something felt off about him. Like he wasn't as evil as his brother wished to believe. Perhaps the eye thing was to force Sasuke to kill him. No idea why Itachi would want to die, though. |
Ston3_FreeN7Mar 17, 2014 11:45 PM
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3Spectre said: Really enjoyed this, some pretty interesting back story and it seems that Tobi really is Madara. On that note Madara is shaping up to be a pretty interesting character, and his desire to protect his clan actually made sense to me. It's too bad he was kicked out of the village, though it's hard to trust everything he says. But, I feel as though his actions will be given context in the future . Not that shocked about Itachi doing the murders for the village. Before his rant about wanting Sasuke's eyes, I got the feeling something felt off about him. Like he wasn't as evil as his brother wished to believe. Perhaps the eye thing was to force Sasuke to kill him. No idea why Itachi would want to die, though. Yeah this is definitely one of the largest moments that will have further closure later on, learning the secrets and mysteries behind the uchiha clan massecer. |
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| I just can't believe how good this show is becoming. I actually had a great deal of thought whether I should watch Naruto or not, because of the huge amount of episodes. But just this last few episodes were worth it. I noticed (like many people hah) that the story is better with Sasuke as the main character. When Sasuke says " Next time in Naruto Shippuden" I just keep hoping he will one day say "Next time, on Sasuke Shippuden" lol. Naruto is cute, but just too much of side character. No one really cares. And the other thing I like is the commentary here, everyone discussing what they think will happen. I believe that there will be more to the story, but also that this is more then enough to side Sasuke with Madara and against Konoha. Simply put, when presented with a choice, Sasuke will always try to avoid killing or hurting people, like shown various times, both Orochimaru and Itachi mpcked him for being too kindhearted. But if people are standing in way of his vengeance (and refuse to move) he will eliminate them. He is now very strong, and he will definitely try to go against the elders that caused his clan and worshiped older brother to die. If the rest of Konoha tries to stop him, he will just go against them too. |
| The backstory part of this arc is being handled really well. I'm actually impressed. |
| "The world cannot be changed with pretty words alone." ~Lelouch Lamperouge |
| WOW WUT GR8 STORY! HAVE A CHARACTER GO FOR 300 PLUS EPISODES WITH ONE GOAL JUST TO MAKE IT BULLSHIT AND HAVE HIM STILL BE A LITTLE BITCH! GREEEAAAATTTTT! |
| “I love heroes, but I don't want to be one. Do you even know what a hero is!? For example, you have some meat. Pirates will feast on the meat, but the hero will distribute it among the people! I want to eat the meat!” - Monkey D. Luffy |
| Hmmm sounds legit |
| I'm Bruneian and I like anime. And Manchester United. And fat cats. |
| No way.Itachi killed the whole Uchiha clan to save Konoha??? |
Come on man,where is that Noragami season 3 masterpiece.We want it, Bones! |
| damn kishimoto is genius, making in shounen battle full chapters/episodes about history of konoha and make it damn interesting. i had to backward this episode more than 5 times to get the whole details without fail, this is just great. and of course they will end with that, after the episode started with "itachi did that to protect you" and leave that part for next ep xD |
| Hmm Madara's/Tobi's motives are kinda sketchy. What if HE was the one who actually released the Kyuubi during the 4th Hokage's reign? So that he could destroy the village or something? And that in turn resulted in the massacre of the Uchiha's. Basically Itachi was forced to make this choice. He never wanted any of this. But duty calls y'know. |
 ◑ ━━━━━ ▣ ━━━━━ ◐ "Everything I've witnessed... This whole system you have built has always rejected me. Now I'm ready to reject it. That's why I destroy. That's why I took this power for myself. Simple enough, yeah? I don't care if you don't understand... That's what makes us... Heroes and Villains." ◑ ━━━━━ ▣ ━━━━━ ◐ |
| We need to really see that battle between Madara and the first Hokage. That one must be intense! And I wonder why his wood style is stronger than Sharingan! It would make sense if there's an arc for it which would explain the detail more. |
 She got him back. If you understand the characters well enough, you'd know she did! |
| damn idk what to say, wow what an episode that was a lot to take in i gotta rewatch it |
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