One Piece Chapter 865 Discussion

MoonStar9 said:
A full chapter just for one scream and a two-week cliffhanger... Can't say I loved it. Also where the hell are all of Big Mom's other children? And crewmates? Why are Prospero and Katakuri the only ones doing anything? Ok, so lets see what Big Mom's history with Mother Caramel is. Heard theories she might just be a figment of Pudding's DF but given the ending made it seem like she actually exists.

Foxyclaws said:
Good chapter! I´m glad that Sanji is rescuing Vinsmokes. He was very cool.
I´m not that ecxcited about Big mom flashback that will start in next chapter :/

sakamoto-kun said:
The chapter concluded with a flashback of Big Mom. 63 years ago, huh ? How old was she their, was she already a grown up ? a teen? or a kid ? Either way, I'm really looking forward to what details we will get to know about her from this trip in the past.

unleashrage said:
Good chapter but I am surprised Katakuri didn't see Capone's betrayal. I hope we get a little more information on Katakuri's ability to see into the future as he seems to miss important moments.

sakamoto-kun said:
@Galaxy__

Thanks for your reply, already looked it up. Kinda hard to believe since she has 85 children, but well that's One Piece for ya :D

Galaxy__ said:


"She was (has been) giving birth to babies every year about for 42 years. Opera was born as quintuplets. Opera (5th son) Counter (6th son) Cadenza (7th son) Cabaletta (8th son) Gala (9th son).The highest record of Big Mom's multiple births is 10 children at one time. The children are now 18 years old."

well that explains how it works

sakamoto-kun said:


Boy, she was pretty busy during these years. Is that info from the FPS or the manga ? If the latter one is the case I can't really recall it.

ToG25thBaam said:
No idea why some people don't like the upcoming backstory.. is it because it's going to be "predictably sad"?

ToG25thBaam said:

I personally welcome it, main reason being I've always felt like Big Mam's character is very lacking.. even Pudding and Katakuri got far more character than her, and if she goes down without further depth, I'd be very disappointed just as I was with Doffy's executives. I expect the backstory to add more depth to her character, explain her bad blood with Elbaf, her relationship with the lady in the photo, and give us a preview to Elbaf. Some people also speculated that the huge tree in the middle of the city will be the Yggdrasil, so I'll be looking out for theories for that. P.S. it might also explain her motivation to unite all races in the world.. P.P.S. I don't see the backstory as it redeeming her sins, just like Doffy's, it'll only serve to add depth to her character, whether or not it "redeems" her, it's up to the viewers, but I wouldn't count on it.

ToG25thBaam said:

Sanji is looking cool again.. For a long time now I haven't thought of "cool" to synonym with Sanji's character, so that's a cool thing. I want Sanji to knock Judge out though, I don't want cringey sappy dialogue between them, and I don't want them to reconcile. Ichiji looking cool as always, he's so calm, I wonder if he has an ace up his sleeve.

Isterio said:
Most people don´t care about the drama that a Flashback of Big Mom could bring. The reason this chapter received critique is the fact that it cuts away from an already established conflict, instead of wrapping it up.

Isterio said:
You summed up all the reasons why a flashback for Big Mom is desireable and appreciated by most people including me, it´s just out of place, especially considering that Big Mom will not be defeated this arc 99,999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% and if that should happen we must reevaluate all the Yonkou and their powerlevels and put them below the admirals because that´s bullshit.

Isterio said:
Sanji "looked" cool a few times in recent chapters, he just never suceeded in "doing" anything besides his dodging of Katakuri´s attack. Regardless of the flip flopping concesus on a chapter to chapter basis towards Sanji´s "coolness" I personally wouldn´t say that he ever "failed" from a character perspective. Because Sanji´s primarly role on the ship was that of the elegant, suave cook. He´s a multitalent whose fightning capabilities are only secondary. Since his introduction, he relied on Luffy to fight his battles. The concept of the Monster trio wrongfully shifted the expectations and Sanji fanboys further enhanced the factual misspresentaion of his power scaling by putting him on equal footing with Zorro, which was false. Sanji, while often depicted as being on the same level as Zorro, who is a pure fighter and has no further qualtiies, mostly competed equally when Zorro was in a weakened state. A deliberate misslead on Oda´s part in my opinion, although he hid th facts in plain sight.

Sanji received alot of character development this arc and the only annoying thing about it being the constant repetition. I rolled my eyes when Reiju just had to say "again" how Sanji´s kindness is his prime quality, after we´ve been spoonfed this information throughout the whole arc.

ToG25thBaam said:
The same could've been said for the other arcs. From a writing standpoint, the transition into the backstory was not done badly at all, Big Mom saw the broken picture -> she broke down -> Capone getting ready to blast that big bitch -> Big Mom had a flashback thinking about Mother Carmel. I don't think it'll take more than 4 chapters to conclude the flashback anyway. I guess I can see now why people wouldn't want the backstory now.

ToG25thBaam said:

I haven't thought that far, and I don't think Big Mom will fall this arc, but I don't think anything would change even if she does get defeated. In her normal state, nobody on the island could've harmed her, it just so happened she has this huge weakness.. Kaido and the other yonkou is at where I expect Big Mom to be, without the weakness. Just think of it like the Crocodile case, Crocodile was torching Luffy before Luffy discovered his weakness, but that doesn't make Crocodile weak.

ToG25thBaam said:

I know you emphasize on "look", and indeed Sanji dodging Katakuri was a cool moment, but it's followed up by Sanji comforting Pudding and whatnot and he didn't look cool then. I expect this cool moment for Sanji to last a bit longer, I need the Sanji with a tough heart back.

I myself don't expect Sanji to be on Zoro's level, imo it'd be unfair for Zoro who's been training for his whole life, but I just want Sanji to win man, he's even weaker than Jimbei right now imo. Even Oda shits on Sanji by giving Usopp a higher bounty.. -.-'

ToG25thBaam said:

I don't mind the Reiju comment as much, yeah it's a repetition but I don't view it as Oda giving us information about Sanji, but rather it's a breathe of fresh air for Reiju when she has lived so long with her empathy-less brothers. I took that as "her last words" sort of before she gave herself in to die. Then of course, Sanji appears and save his family. The context makes him so much cooler.

TrashDax said:
I'm not too happy about the flashback interrupting an epic battle like this.

Isterio said:
From a structural standpoint it´s placed in the same spot, but other flashbacks, like that of Law or Robin were dedicated towards characters the audience was meant to identify with. Big Mom is a villain. with the sole purpose of being defeated to make the hero look good. If Oda wants to awake any sympathy from the readers from her than he failed, because he wrote nothing likeable about her in the present time. There is no moral ambiguity or flavor to her character. She´s a cartoony one dimensional character with defined, but one-sided characteristics.
Those characters can be very charismatic, if written into the right scenario, look no further than Frieza or Satan, but they´re defined by their inhumanity. If such a character is given human traits he becomes a paradox and loses his charm.
Doffy barely worked, because he started off as a cartoony piece of shit, was revealed to always have been a cartoony piece of shit and ended as a cartoony piece of shit.

Isterio said:
I´ll use videogame terms to explain this easier. Croco boy has nothing in common with the intended defeat of Big Mom. Crocodile was invulnerable before Luffy found out his weakness. He was the equialent of a Game Boss that you have to perform a certain task to render hitable. The Plan to defeat Big Mom on the other hand is akin to an established boss that taunted you since 1/3 of the game is
being killed during a cutscene. It´s middle finger towards the audience.
There is a world of difference between the two. One is simply more satisfying.

Isterio said:
See I do not think that Oda is shitting on Sanji. Ussop and his bounty is clearly meant to be taken as a joke, as we´ve seen that bounties are deceiving on multiple occasions. I´m actually all for Kid being down for the count. Not an Urouge fan, but I like the plottwist to remain consistent and Oda basicly confirming that he is indeed the stronger supernova. Simply because I don´t see why Luffy would need more rivals if Blackbeard is already set up and Akainu lurks on the horizon . But, back to Sanji. From my perspective Sanji never was "badass" but more the "smooth" type of cool. To give you an analogy in a situation where a princess would need rescue from a dragon Luffy and Zorro would go for the kill on the Dragon while Sanji would safe the princess. Two are monumental forces of nature born to fight & conquer, the other a natural talent that learned to handle himself because he was forced into a rough life.

This is reflected on multiple occasions in the Manga. Sanji is the first to get into the seatrain to save Robin on the risk of his life, at the same time Luffy and Zorro rip a whole into a giant Tsunami. Sanji joins Luffy´s crew out of admiration for his power. Zorro has to be blackmailed into joining him and saves his life when Morgan attempts to cut his careless head off. Then during the Arlong Arc Zorro wins injured against Hacchin and makes Arlong piss his pants during their fight with his display of tenacity, before a healthy Luffy finishes him off, that had to be saved by Sanji. Simply put, Sanji was never meant to be an amazing fighter, but rather a supportive soldier that has fighting qualities, which is reflected in his Haki affinity. Jinbe,probably is stronger than him just by the virtue of experience, but that´s not a bad thing. Sanji has other qualties going for him and no stranger to losing. Absalom did beat him pre timeskip, with the Nami handicap, but also despite his rage power up.

Isterio said:
Well, yeath, but we already knew all of this when they had their sibling talk and he told her to get that stupid idea out of her head . As you mentioned Sanji had not a single win this arc. His "kindness" on the other hand is a horse that´s long beaten to death by now. It would make him cool, if he hadn´t announced it towards the audience and even to his sister who simply lives in denial at this point. He told her to leave and she stubbornly refused, which is cheap.

DEVILKILLER1234 said:


It was not a battle but it was all out massacre

Isterio said:

From a structural standpoint it´s placed in the same spot,

but other flashbacks, like that of Law or Robin were dedicated towards characters the audience was meant to identify with.
Doffy barely worked, because he started off as a cartoony piece of shit, was revealed to always have been a cartoony piece of shit and ended as a cartoony piece of shit.

I´ll use videogame terms to explain this easier. Croco boy has nothing in common with the intended defeat of Big Mom. Crocodile was invulnerable before Luffy found out his weakness. He was the equialent of a Game Boss that you have to perform a certain task to render hitable. The Plan to defeat Big Mom on the other hand is akin to an established boss that taunted you since 1/3 of the game is
being killed during a cutscene. It´s middle finger towards the audience.
There is a world of difference between the two. One is simply more satisfying.

ashfrliebert said:

This is a transitional chapter, things very commonplace in manga, especially weekly series. I'm fine with nothing happening


He was a rich, noble piece of shit, not the mass murdering psychopath he became.
There's a difference.

Most antagonist and One Piece are either cartoonlishy evil, or not evil at all. Maybe besides like..Akainu?


I agree with you, giving a flashback in the middle of an antagonist's defeat is inane.

Which is why Big Mom isn't going to be defeated.