Dull_Lull said: fuckgendo said: yeah no i dont need to write a whole essay on why i dislike shirou. why? because hes a fictional character and i couldnt care less. its a fictional character from a show and hobby made for entertainment. and im not saying that multi-layered characters are boring or what not, i fucking love them and they can be incredibly relatable and interesting. i could give tons of examples of shows/characters that do that and why i love them for those reasons. just because a character is deeply-layered or meaningful or whatever doesn't automatically make them interesting nor does it change the fact that they're a boring character: shirou. it's called opinions luv. Yikes so just as I expected, the opinions argument. Okay bye luv. You are entitled to your wrong opinion then and don't think I couldn't see through your lies lul. fuckgendo said: you're deadass getting mad at me because i dont ship two characters. im literally crying "ignoring all the other points" im not getting in a debate why id rather shirou score brunette pussy over blonde pussy. Implying that's the point I was talking to. Come on now luv. Why would I argue about that when he gets different pussies in each route? lul Nice try tho. "wrong opinion" jesus christ sue me for disliking a show and a character. you so aggressively attacked anybody in this thread who had a negative opinion. calm down my man. |
| i feel bad for op. it was THEIR thread and question and there's one guy who's attacking literally anyone with a negative opinion. |
fuckgendo said: i feel bad for op. it was THEIR thread and question and there's one guy who's attacking literally anyone with a negative opinion. You're cute. As if the OP is even here to "discuss" when literally he only responds to posts that agree with him lul. I'm sorry I didn't join the circlejerk and actually tried to argue my own points man. |
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| Whelp, i'm admittedly a Fate newbie for now. I've only watched F/SN '06 so far and i liked it despite all the hate it gets, probably 'cause i haven't read the VN or watched the ufotable adaptations yet; will do so later. I believe Shiro's attitude kinda makes sense, considering his heavy survivor's guilt and trauma and i understand why his development is slow. The source material is a multi-route VN with a length that rivals the Bible's, after all. The anime can't possibly shoe-horn that much character development in just 24 Eps. Anyway, i think this thread has already done a good job of showing me a taste of the sort of interactions and discussions i can expect to see from this fandom. I'll keep that in mind and consider staying away from it. |
OrororurandoApr 29, 2020 1:02 PM
| The amount of hate that Shirou is getting in this thread physically hurts me ;-; But not even a die-hard fan of Shirou like me could defend him in the Fate route. He sucks hard there. |
sneed's feed and seed  formerly chuck's |
| My largest dislike with Fate, not counting the terrible spinoffs, nor the video games as i have not played thoose, my largest gripe is the structure of the three routes and the main charachter (I am only judging from the anime series, i have not read the VN) The three routes offer three different stories, but the problem is Shirou sould not be the protagonist in all three of them, it simply does not fit in the Fate route nor of what i have seen in the Heavens Feels Movies, however his role as protagonist does fit in UBW. The Fate route or the 2006 anime is pretty much about Sabre and not Shirou, in this route he gets no development and gets either kidnapped, beaten up, or gets in some sticky situation where Sabre has to rescue him due to his ineptitude. Sabre however would have gotten her own charachter arc. Shirou has no antagonist to deafet in the Fate route unless you consider the last skirmish with him and Kirei a fight. Sabre has Gilgamsh albeit he shows up in the end. Sabres journey in the Fate route is about finding value in yourself and be proud of the good you accomplished, her leadership failed and her kingdom was destroyed and she blames herself for it, therefore she wants the grail, not to just undo her past mistakes, but have someone lift the responsibility from her shoulders, at the end of the story she learns that even though she failed, she still managed to do her best and protect her kingdom for twenty agonizing years. She rejects the grail knowing that no one else could have held that responsibiity that she had and instead of saving her kingdom she decides to save the people of the present by making sure the grail does not come in the hands of Kirei and Gilgamesh, thus when she deafets Gilgamesh in the end, a man who spits on her life choices and ideology and wants to humiliate and enslave her, she thematically proves that her ideas and life choices had worth to them by deafeting him with a manifestation of her dream world, making the arrogant god king acknowledge her with respect upon his death, atleast thats how i interpreted it. Now what does any of this have to do with Shirou as a charachter, what does he contribute to the Fate route, as mentioned before he does nothing other than getting beat up and kidnapped and then somehow magically Sabre falls in love with him, for some reason. Clearly this route would either need some serious changes to make Shirou more active in his role as protagonist or just have Sabre be the protagonist. Compare this to the UBW route, that is clearly Shirous story and is in my opinion far superior to the other routes becuase of that, while the build up to it was not that great, his fight with Archer is the peak of his charachter where he learns that even though following his dreams will most likely end in bitter dissapointment, he will still do it becuase he truely has a sincere wish to help other people and unlike Kiritsugu or Archer, he accepts that he might not succed but is willing to pursue his naive Dream regardless becuase he sees the value in it. This time however he will learn from Archers mistakes and not try to do it alone but togheter with Rin, atleast thats how i interpreted that fight. It Is the best charachter development Shirou has ever gotten in all Three routes and while i haven´t seen all of Heavens Feel, i was told what happened by a friend of mine, and while i like Shirou faces a dilemma whether he should kill the one he loves to save many and then actually put his world view to the test, based on what i was told it didn´t seem to go anywhere and i would have preffered if Sakura was the portagonist in Heavens Feel as i think it would work better. Then there is just the nature of it being split in diffrent routes just not being able to tell a coherent story, for example in Heavens feel Zouken actually does something by summoning Assasin becuase Shinji is incompetent, why did he not decide to do that in the other two routes? If Illyas heart can trigger the Holy Grail to appear, why didn´t Gilgamesh and Kirei try to kill her in the Fate route? And quite frankly, even though UBW is the best route for Shirous charachter, i just dont like him, his most "admirable" trait is his desire to rush in and save everyone around him, but personally i dont find rushing in to a situation where there is no way you can make a change heroic. Lets put it like this, a policeman and some thug happened to be in a firefight, wouldn´t you let the policeman do his job or jump into the crossfire needlessly getting yourself killed? Most people would probally think the guy who rushes in to a firefight, unarmed and unprotected, to be quite stupid instead of beeing a tragedy, and thats how i view Shirou and is one of many reasons i dislike him which sours the experience of the three routes to me. Hello iI you made it to the end, my unfiltered thoughts are not pretty I´m afriad |
| Just here to say that only Fate/Zero is worth watching UBW is trash |
| https://myanimelist.net/animelist/Alex_Amor My anime list! :D |
14nigward69 said: I'm assuming you've only seen fate/stay night, you need to watch fate zero and if you want to see a better side of shiro then watch the heavens feel movies i will definitely watch heavens feel, ive updated what i have watched. im currently trying to watch everything fate related |
 Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
Stygian_Prisoner said: Whelp, i'm admittedly a Fate newbie for now. I've only watched F/SN '06 so far and i liked it despite all the hate it gets, probably 'cause i haven't read the VN or watched the ufotable adaptations yet; will do so later. I believe Shiro's attitude kinda makes sense, considering his heavy survivor's guilt and trauma and i understand why his development is slow. The source material is a multi-route VN with a length that rivals the Bible's, after all. The anime can't possibly shoe-horn that much character development in just 24 Eps. Anyway, i think this thread has already done a good job of showing me a taste of the sort of interactions and discussions i can expect to see from this fandom. I'll keep that in mind and consider staying away from it. to bad, the fate meme community is nice tho dont pay attention to dull_lul, i guess he is just not very nice dont give up on your fate crusade |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
Dull_Lull said: fuckgendo said: i feel bad for op. it was THEIR thread and question and there's one guy who's attacking literally anyone with a negative opinion. You're cute. As if the OP is even here to "discuss" when literally he only responds to posts that agree with him lul. I'm sorry I didn't join the circlejerk and actually tried to argue my own points man. Well excuse me, but i like to read the arguments and opinions people have. I see you just blandly attacking me as dumb? and a other user you keep harrasing with "luv" while that user DID say to stop that. Im sorry but if you continue to spout nonsense instead of accepting there are different opinions, i will contact the moderators |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
Thank you for your view, that was almost what i tought, yet the way they present shirou is just slow and insufferable. in the end i hoped archer would have been serious and actually killed shirou in UBW. i will watch heavens feel soon and hope to see your point there |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
fst said: personally the thing that always gets me about nasuverse in general is this  it's like fucking french english grammar where theres a million rules, but a billion exceptions for each and every rule. You just reminded me of something similar about how the series re-uses it's character designs all the time.  Like, it's not even about having a familiar face anymore. It just reads to me as peak laziness. |
A_Sad_Dust_Cloud said: fst said: personally the thing that always gets me about nasuverse in general is this it's like fucking french english grammar where theres a million rules, but a billion exceptions for each and every rule. You just reminded me of something similar about how the series re-uses it's character designs all the time. Like, it's not even about having a familiar face anymore. It just reads to me as peak laziness. i like the rin faces tho. but yeah the recycling of saber faces gets a bit boring |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
| Damn you all don't pay attention at all Shirou is easily one of Fate's most well written characters. The anime adaption isn't perfect but the amount of ignorance in this thread is pretty entertaining. |
Dieshouri said: Damn you all don't pay attention at all Shirou is easily one of Fate's most well written characters. The anime adaption isn't perfect but the amount of ignorance in this thread is pretty entertaining. care to explain? other than that i don't see any counter examples while i fully explain what i dont like. it is a matter of opinion if you like that way of character presentation. instead of shitting on everyone here, just give us some explanation |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
2life said: Dieshouri said: Damn you all don't pay attention at all Shirou is easily one of Fate's most well written characters. The anime adaption isn't perfect but the amount of ignorance in this thread is pretty entertaining. care to explain? other than that i don't see any counter examples while i fully explain what i dont like. it is a matter of opinion if you like that way of character presentation. instead of shitting on everyone here, just give us some explanation What do want me to write an essay? If you're saying that he doesn't have common sense as an insult then you don't understand the first thing about him. Give me some grievances and I'll tell you why you're wrong. |
JustAnotherAlias said: My largest dislike with Fate, not counting the terrible spinoffs, nor the video games as i have not played thoose, my largest gripe is the structure of the three routes and the main charachter (I am only judging from the anime series, i have not read the VN) The three routes offer three different stories, but the problem is Shirou sould not be the protagonist in all three of them, it simply does not fit in the Fate route nor of what i have seen in the Heavens Feels Movies, however his role as protagonist does fit in UBW. The Fate route or the 2006 anime is pretty much about Sabre and not Shirou, in this route he gets no development and gets either kidnapped, beaten up, or gets in some sticky situation where Sabre has to rescue him due to his ineptitude. Sabre however would have gotten her own charachter arc. Shirou has no antagonist to deafet in the Fate route unless you consider the last skirmish with him and Kirei a fight. Sabre has Gilgamsh albeit he shows up in the end. Sabres journey in the Fate route is about finding value in yourself and be proud of the good you accomplished, her leadership failed and her kingdom was destroyed and she blames herself for it, therefore she wants the grail, not to just undo her past mistakes, but have someone lift the responsibility from her shoulders, at the end of the story she learns that even though she failed, she still managed to do her best and protect her kingdom for twenty agonizing years. She rejects the grail knowing that no one else could have held that responsibiity that she had and instead of saving her kingdom she decides to save the people of the present by making sure the grail does not come in the hands of Kirei and Gilgamesh, thus when she deafets Gilgamesh in the end, a man who spits on her life choices and ideology and wants to humiliate and enslave her, she thematically proves that her ideas and life choices had worth to them by deafeting him with a manifestation of her dream world, making the arrogant god king acknowledge her with respect upon his death, atleast thats how i interpreted it. Now what does any of this have to do with Shirou as a charachter, what does he contribute to the Fate route, as mentioned before he does nothing other than getting beat up and kidnapped and then somehow magically Sabre falls in love with him, for some reason. Clearly this route would either need some serious changes to make Shirou more active in his role as protagonist or just have Sabre be the protagonist. Compare this to the UBW route, that is clearly Shirous story and is in my opinion far superior to the other routes becuase of that, while the build up to it was not that great, his fight with Archer is the peak of his charachter where he learns that even though following his dreams will most likely end in bitter dissapointment, he will still do it becuase he truely has a sincere wish to help other people and unlike Kiritsugu or Archer, he accepts that he might not succed but is willing to pursue his naive Dream regardless becuase he sees the value in it. This time however he will learn from Archers mistakes and not try to do it alone but togheter with Rin, atleast thats how i interpreted that fight. It Is the best charachter development Shirou has ever gotten in all Three routes and while i haven´t seen all of Heavens Feel, i was told what happened by a friend of mine, and while i like Shirou faces a dilemma whether he should kill the one he loves to save many and then actually put his world view to the test, based on what i was told it didn´t seem to go anywhere and i would have preffered if Sakura was the portagonist in Heavens Feel as i think it would work better. Then there is just the nature of it being split in diffrent routes just not being able to tell a coherent story, for example in Heavens feel Zouken actually does something by summoning Assasin becuase Shinji is incompetent, why did he not decide to do that in the other two routes? If Illyas heart can trigger the Holy Grail to appear, why didn´t Gilgamesh and Kirei try to kill her in the Fate route? And quite frankly, even though UBW is the best route for Shirous charachter, i just dont like him, his most "admirable" trait is his desire to rush in and save everyone around him, but personally i dont find rushing in to a situation where there is no way you can make a change heroic. Lets put it like this, a policeman and some thug happened to be in a firefight, wouldn´t you let the policeman do his job or jump into the crossfire needlessly getting yourself killed? Most people would probally think the guy who rushes in to a firefight, unarmed and unprotected, to be quite stupid instead of beeing a tragedy, and thats how i view Shirou and is one of many reasons i dislike him which sours the experience of the three routes to me. Hello iI you made it to the end, my unfiltered thoughts are not pretty I´m afriad Damn you wrote all that and still got it all wrong. You don't seem to get it do you? Saber would get ZERO development in Fate route if it's not for Shirou lul. How did you miss out such an important fact? She'd remain the same grief-stricken king trying to pursue the holy grail only to be betrayed at the end by it if she wasn't snapped out of her delusion. Shirou is literally the one who convinces her that her wish is misguided and that she should be happy with her legacy as king instead of regretting it. Luv how would Sakura work as a protagonist better? HF's plot is literally about the mystery surrounding her. Because she's the holy grail itself, I thought that was obvious? And Kirei did use Ilya in the Fate route. When Gilgamesh ripped off her heart in UBW, he literally needed to find another vessel for it even though the best one was already right in front of him. 2life said: Dull_Lull said: You're cute. As if the OP is even here to "discuss" when literally he only responds to posts that agree with him lul. I'm sorry I didn't join the circlejerk and actually tried to argue my own points man. Well excuse me, but i like to read the arguments and opinions people have. I see you just blandly attacking me as dumb? and a other user you keep harrasing with "luv" while that user DID say to stop that. Im sorry but if you continue to spout nonsense instead of accepting there are different opinions, i will contact the moderators Just say you don't have any actual answer lul. I've presented a lot of arguments in this thread already and not a single one you have ever refuted and then you go to say that you don't see any counter examples when it's littered everywhere here so who's exactly spouting nonsense here again? 2life said: Thank you for your view, that was almost what i tought, yet the way they present shirou is just slow and insufferable. in the end i hoped archer would have been serious and actually killed shirou in UBW. i will watch heavens feel soon and hope to see your point there Why would he kill Shirou? The point of their fight was that it was Archer who strayed off from his path. |
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| Oh, I like it, and beyond F/0, the visual novel, and the very numerous amount of doujins that are sprinkled across all the shows; somehow, Fate/Apocrypha got me my first yaoi ship. I didn't even finish Apoc, but I looked at Sieg and Astolfo, then went "yeah, that feels right." Still, I'm more of a Shirou and Saber fan. I mean, it's not every day you get to say, "A young Japanese boy literally fucks King Arthur to give her power." |
| "You know you've reached peak quality when a doujin is better than the actual source series." (Eg. To LOVE-Ru) Just to list a couple of biases. Likes: A good story, characters, writing, romance, a good plot twist or something that breaks expectations (In a good way), 'backstory' and justice. Dislikes: Bad romance, too much fanservice, the harem genre, yuri, yaoi, and bad writing. |
Dull_Lull said: Gilliesss said: I guess I’ll have a shot at refuting your arguments then. How about no more being nasty though, there are ways to discuss things without hurling insults when you disagree with someone’s opinion. Yes, there are problems. No matter how many excuses people make up a “realistic” and whiny character does not make them good. There were so many areas where characters could’ve been improved. To add to the housewife point, she really isn’t in battle all that much. And while yes, Shirou leaving her at his house to do absolutely nothing might translate well into his character, it does not translate well into the story at all. Which areas? Luv, Saber literally battles 4 out 6 servants and on multiple occasions each time and you say she doesn't battle much? Please... she fights the most out of everyone in that show. The point here is that Fate itself is a character-driven show. Don't expect the characters to make the same "logical" decisions as you because they're their own persona. Did you pay attention to anything I said? It doesn’t matter if it’s a character driven show, the fact that the decisions the characters make hold back the show still stands. And I don’t want the characters to think like me. I want to think like a character I can enjoy watching, and there is nothing there to enjoy when the main characters is a self-insert which has been done hundreds of times already. Saber had good build up in Fate/Zero only to have her almost completely changed in fate UBW. Logical characters suck, but in a character driven show having the mic be only non-logical one is ridiculous. Even Shinji is a better written character than Shirou |
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Gilliesss said: Dull_Lull said: Which areas? Luv, Saber literally battles 4 out 6 servants and on multiple occasions each time and you say she doesn't battle much? Please... she fights the most out of everyone in that show. The point here is that Fate itself is a character-driven show. Don't expect the characters to make the same "logical" decisions as you because they're their own persona. Did you pay attention to anything I said? It doesn’t matter if it’s a character driven show, the fact that the decisions the characters make hold back the show still stands. And I don’t want the characters to think like me. I want to think like a character I can enjoy watching, and there is nothing there to enjoy when the main characters is a self-insert which has been done hundreds of times already. Saber had good build up in Fate/Zero only to have her almost completely changed in fate UBW. Logical characters suck, but in a character driven show having the mic be only non-logical one is ridiculous. Even Shinji is a better written character than Shirou How does it hold back the show? How about you tell me that. How is the main character a self-insert? You don't spend a fuck ton of hours dissecting someone's survivor's guilt and PTSD and how it shapes his character only for that character to end up a self-insert. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Are you okay? What buildup? You mean being mischaracterized as a naive dumb blonde that literally goes against all her development and backstory? Luv Zero Saber is literally the most tragic representation of her character. Now I know you're just trolling at this point. How am I supposed to take you seriously now? lmaooo Saber had no reason to open up to Shirou in UBW. The only reason she got a lot of development in the Fate route in the first place is because they bonded enough for him to share the same dreams as Saber and find out about her tragic fall in Britain. |
Dull_LullApr 29, 2020 8:10 PM
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2life said: Thank you for your view, that was almost what i tought, yet the way they present shirou is just slow and insufferable. in the end i hoped archer would have been serious and actually killed shirou in UBW. i will watch heavens feel soon and hope to see your point there ummm you did not read the VN did you ? because if you did not then i can see why you would hate shirou in the anime they literally cut all his Internal monologues |
 ”A fight isn't won once a victor is decided, it's won when someone loses.” – Izayoi SakamakiI don’t even know the real names of the two… no, three that I killed back then. I just closed my eyes, put my hands over my ears and tried to forget it all.” – Kirito MY ANIME LIST |
Dull_Lull said: Gilliesss said: Did you pay attention to anything I said? It doesn’t matter if it’s a character driven show, the fact that the decisions the characters make hold back the show still stands. And I don’t want the characters to think like me. I want to think like a character I can enjoy watching, and there is nothing there to enjoy when the main characters is a self-insert which has been done hundreds of times already. Saber had good build up in Fate/Zero only to have her almost completely changed in fate UBW. Logical characters suck, but in a character driven show having the mic be only non-logical one is ridiculous. Even Shinji is a better written character than Shirou How does it hold back the show? How about you tell me that. How is the main character a self-insert? You don't spend a fuck ton of hours dissecting someone's survivor's guilt and PTSD and how it shapes his character only for that character to end up a self-insert. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Are you okay? What buildup? You mean being mischaracterized as a naive dumb blonde that literally goes against all her development and backstory? Luv Zero Saber is literally the most tragic representation of her character. Now I know you're just trolling at this point. How am I supposed to take you seriously now? lmaooo Saber had no reason to open up to Shirou in UBW. The only reason she got a lot of development in the Fate route in the first place is because they bonded enough for him to share the same dreams as Saber and find out about her tragic fall in Britain. LOL dude why are you arguing on a message board? You aren't gonna win just give it up. |
| Jesus the Fate community can be obnoxious and toxic. Anyway, while I don't like Shirou that much, I really liked how he beat Gilgamesh at the end of UBW. I wasn't paying enough attention to the series to know whether it was contrived or created issues with the plot, but I liked the idea that it was a situational matchup that allowed him to beat someone quite clearly stronger than him, and anyone else would have won against Shirou. I was still bored with the character throughout the series, and this wasn't enough to really redeem him as a main character for me, but that single fight was still very much a highlight of that route and is what I fondly remember UBW for. |
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Dull_Lull said: Gilliesss said: Did you pay attention to anything I said? It doesn’t matter if it’s a character driven show, the fact that the decisions the characters make hold back the show still stands. And I don’t want the characters to think like me. I want to think like a character I can enjoy watching, and there is nothing there to enjoy when the main characters is a self-insert which has been done hundreds of times already. Saber had good build up in Fate/Zero only to have her almost completely changed in fate UBW. Logical characters suck, but in a character driven show having the mic be only non-logical one is ridiculous. Even Shinji is a better written character than Shirou How does it hold back the show? How about you tell me that. How is the main character a self-insert? You don't spend a fuck ton of hours dissecting someone's survivor's guilt and PTSD and how it shapes his character only for that character to end up a self-insert. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Are you okay? What buildup? You mean being mischaracterized as a naive dumb blonde that literally goes against all her development and backstory? Luv Zero Saber is literally the most tragic representation of her character. Now I know you're just trolling at this point. How am I supposed to take you seriously now? lmaooo Saber had no reason to open up to Shirou in UBW. The only reason she got a lot of development in the Fate route in the first place is because they bonded enough for him to share the same dreams as Saber and find out about her tragic fall in Britain. What ptsd lol. His entire motivation is to be a hero |
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Gilliesss said: Dull_Lull said: How does it hold back the show? How about you tell me that. How is the main character a self-insert? You don't spend a fuck ton of hours dissecting someone's survivor's guilt and PTSD and how it shapes his character only for that character to end up a self-insert. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Are you okay? What buildup? You mean being mischaracterized as a naive dumb blonde that literally goes against all her development and backstory? Luv Zero Saber is literally the most tragic representation of her character. Now I know you're just trolling at this point. How am I supposed to take you seriously now? lmaooo Saber had no reason to open up to Shirou in UBW. The only reason she got a lot of development in the Fate route in the first place is because they bonded enough for him to share the same dreams as Saber and find out about her tragic fall in Britain. What ptsd lol. His entire motivation is to be a hero Yikes you lost me there luv. Having an obsession with sacrificing his life because he deems it worthless, thinking he doesn't deserve to have fun when he realized he was enjoying Rin's company, his constant nightmares, his extreme devotion to ideals he never had in the first place, etc. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about at this point. I'm convinced you're just trying to ignore everything because you set your mind to it. Ironic coming from an Index stan. |
Dull_LullApr 29, 2020 11:27 PM
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Dull_Lull said: Yikes you lost me there luv. Having an obsession with sacrificing his life because he deems it worthless, thinking he doesn't deserve to have fun when he realized he was enjoying Rin's company, his constant nightmares, his extreme devotion to ideals he never had in the first place, etc. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about at this point. I'm convinced you're just trying to ignore everything because you set your mind to it. Ironic coming from an Index stan. The typical “you like this show so your opinion is irrelevant.” If you’re gonna go on about index at least read the light novels so you can make valid points. I’ll admit I got a bit off topic. Shirou’s motivation is fair enough. There could’ve been improvement but at least it works in terms of the story. That said Fate UBW isn’t anywhere near perfect. Saber didn’t ever feel like she had a clear objective and was all over the place, Shirou does still have a lot of overused tropes, and a lot of characters are still very basic. Let’s just agree to disagree, as you can tell debating isn’t my strong point and neither of us look like we are gonna change our minds anytime soon. |
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ah yes, that reminds me of "there's a fine line between hate and love" while i cant stand such "do-good" persons doing nothing good, their change has a satisfying impact |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
Askaa said: 2life said: Thank you for your view, that was almost what i tought, yet the way they present shirou is just slow and insufferable. in the end i hoped archer would have been serious and actually killed shirou in UBW. i will watch heavens feel soon and hope to see your point there ummm you did not read the VN did you ? because if you did not then i can see why you would hate shirou in the anime they literally cut all his Internal monologues nope i didn't read the VN. what i liked more about the ending of UBW and saber in Zero was indeed the interal thoughts. but somewhere in me hoped that archer showed off his sexy abs and totally recked shirou's ass. but that is my opinion |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
| Fate/Zero was great. UBW was a mix of bad and good. The rest are kinda shit. |
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Gilliesss said: Dull_Lull said: Yikes you lost me there luv. Having an obsession with sacrificing his life because he deems it worthless, thinking he doesn't deserve to have fun when he realized he was enjoying Rin's company, his constant nightmares, his extreme devotion to ideals he never had in the first place, etc. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about at this point. I'm convinced you're just trying to ignore everything because you set your mind to it. Ironic coming from an Index stan. The typical “you like this show so your opinion is irrelevant.” If you’re gonna go on about index at least read the light novels so you can make valid points. I’ll admit I got a bit off topic. Shirou’s motivation is fair enough. There could’ve been improvement but at least it works in terms of the story. That said Fate UBW isn’t anywhere near perfect. Saber didn’t ever feel like she had a clear objective and was all over the place, Shirou does still have a lot of overused tropes, and a lot of characters are still very basic. Let’s just agree to disagree, as you can tell debating isn’t my strong point and neither of us look like we are gonna change our minds anytime soon. Where did I say that luv? Tell me quickly. I'm saying it's ironic of you considering you're a fan of Index which is constantly criticized by anime-onlies for being a tragic mess compared to Railgun. Stfu lul Touma has been scrutinized since forever for being a "typical goody-two-shoes" and Misaka in Sisters arc ain't that far from Shirou's character and you're here trying your hardest to ignore my points. Please... have some self-awareness ffs. Very funny of you to tell me to read the LNs. How about you? Have you read the FSN VN? What mess? Saber had a clear goal in mind. She wants to win the holy grail because Fate route spoilers and she had no reason to disclose her true wish to Shirou since she wants to keep it a secret and Shirou respects her request unlike in Fate route when they shared a dream together that fueled Shirou's drive to change Saber's mind about her wish. |
Dull_LullApr 30, 2020 1:18 AM
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Dull_Lull said: JustAnotherAlias said: My largest dislike with Fate, not counting the terrible spinoffs, nor the video games as i have not played thoose, my largest gripe is the structure of the three routes and the main charachter (I am only judging from the anime series, i have not read the VN) The three routes offer three different stories, but the problem is Shirou sould not be the protagonist in all three of them, it simply does not fit in the Fate route nor of what i have seen in the Heavens Feels Movies, however his role as protagonist does fit in UBW. The Fate route or the 2006 anime is pretty much about Sabre and not Shirou, in this route he gets no development and gets either kidnapped, beaten up, or gets in some sticky situation where Sabre has to rescue him due to his ineptitude. Sabre however would have gotten her own charachter arc. Shirou has no antagonist to deafet in the Fate route unless you consider the last skirmish with him and Kirei a fight. Sabre has Gilgamsh albeit he shows up in the end. Sabres journey in the Fate route is about finding value in yourself and be proud of the good you accomplished, her leadership failed and her kingdom was destroyed and she blames herself for it, therefore she wants the grail, not to just undo her past mistakes, but have someone lift the responsibility from her shoulders, at the end of the story she learns that even though she failed, she still managed to do her best and protect her kingdom for twenty agonizing years. She rejects the grail knowing that no one else could have held that responsibiity that she had and instead of saving her kingdom she decides to save the people of the present by making sure the grail does not come in the hands of Kirei and Gilgamesh, thus when she deafets Gilgamesh in the end, a man who spits on her life choices and ideology and wants to humiliate and enslave her, she thematically proves that her ideas and life choices had worth to them by deafeting him with a manifestation of her dream world, making the arrogant god king acknowledge her with respect upon his death, atleast thats how i interpreted it. Now what does any of this have to do with Shirou as a charachter, what does he contribute to the Fate route, as mentioned before he does nothing other than getting beat up and kidnapped and then somehow magically Sabre falls in love with him, for some reason. Clearly this route would either need some serious changes to make Shirou more active in his role as protagonist or just have Sabre be the protagonist. Compare this to the UBW route, that is clearly Shirous story and is in my opinion far superior to the other routes becuase of that, while the build up to it was not that great, his fight with Archer is the peak of his charachter where he learns that even though following his dreams will most likely end in bitter dissapointment, he will still do it becuase he truely has a sincere wish to help other people and unlike Kiritsugu or Archer, he accepts that he might not succed but is willing to pursue his naive Dream regardless becuase he sees the value in it. This time however he will learn from Archers mistakes and not try to do it alone but togheter with Rin, atleast thats how i interpreted that fight. It Is the best charachter development Shirou has ever gotten in all Three routes and while i haven´t seen all of Heavens Feel, i was told what happened by a friend of mine, and while i like Shirou faces a dilemma whether he should kill the one he loves to save many and then actually put his world view to the test, based on what i was told it didn´t seem to go anywhere and i would have preffered if Sakura was the portagonist in Heavens Feel as i think it would work better. Then there is just the nature of it being split in diffrent routes just not being able to tell a coherent story, for example in Heavens feel Zouken actually does something by summoning Assasin becuase Shinji is incompetent, why did he not decide to do that in the other two routes? If Illyas heart can trigger the Holy Grail to appear, why didn´t Gilgamesh and Kirei try to kill her in the Fate route? And quite frankly, even though UBW is the best route for Shirous charachter, i just dont like him, his most "admirable" trait is his desire to rush in and save everyone around him, but personally i dont find rushing in to a situation where there is no way you can make a change heroic. Lets put it like this, a policeman and some thug happened to be in a firefight, wouldn´t you let the policeman do his job or jump into the crossfire needlessly getting yourself killed? Most people would probally think the guy who rushes in to a firefight, unarmed and unprotected, to be quite stupid instead of beeing a tragedy, and thats how i view Shirou and is one of many reasons i dislike him which sours the experience of the three routes to me. Hello iI you made it to the end, my unfiltered thoughts are not pretty I´m afriad Damn you wrote all that and still got it all wrong. You don't seem to get it do you? Saber would get ZERO development in Fate route if it's not for Shirou lul. How did you miss out such an important fact? She'd remain the same grief-stricken king trying to pursue the holy grail only to be betrayed at the end by it if she wasn't snapped out of her delusion. Shirou is literally the one who convinces her that her wish is misguided and that she should be happy with her legacy as king instead of regretting it. Luv how would Sakura work as a protagonist better? HF's plot is literally about the mystery surrounding her. Because she's the holy grail itself, I thought that was obvious? And Kirei did use Ilya in the Fate route. When Gilgamesh ripped off her heart in UBW, he literally needed to find another vessel for it even though the best one was already right in front of him. Okay, I can't speak for Heaven's Feel or the Fate route, but here's something I don't understand. So Shirou helped out in Saber's character arc throughout the Fate route. Okay, fair enough. But why does that mean he has to be the protagonist? If that Fate route is supposed to be about Saber feeling guilty about past mistakes and Shirou is helping her move past it, then why not have Saber be the player character and let us experience that more directly? Shirou could still have all those influences as a side character, and it would make for a more interesting game because we get to switch to a different character's perspective. Plus, it's a visual novel, it's not like it would be very difficult to program. |
Dull_Lull said: What mess? Saber had a clear goal in mind. She wants to win the holy grail because spoilers and she had no reason to disclose her true wish to Shirou since she wants to keep it a secret and Shirou respects her request. the mess is how they presented it and how much grit saber really showed that she wanted the grail. Other than "i failed as a king" there doesn't spark much from it nor can we actually cheer her on. In UBW we get to see a saber who wants to fight, but we don't feel the necessity as Archer takes away the spotlight. It is not a bad thing but saber definitely isn't as focused as she was in Stay Night to let her derail to a house maid. The way Archer presented it feels like he has more up his sleeve, that was something saber missed because her interactions were stoic and superficial. |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
A_Sad_Dust_Cloud said: Dull_Lull said: Damn you wrote all that and still got it all wrong. You don't seem to get it do you? Saber would get ZERO development in Fate route if it's not for Shirou lul. How did you miss out such an important fact? She'd remain the same grief-stricken king trying to pursue the holy grail only to be betrayed at the end by it if she wasn't snapped out of her delusion. Shirou is literally the one who convinces her that her wish is misguided and that she should be happy with her legacy as king instead of regretting it. Luv how would Sakura work as a protagonist better? HF's plot is literally about the mystery surrounding her. Because she's the holy grail itself, I thought that was obvious? And Kirei did use Ilya in the Fate route. When Gilgamesh ripped off her heart in UBW, he literally needed to find another vessel for it even though the best one was already right in front of him. Okay, I can't speak for Heaven's Feel or the Fate route, but here's something I don't understand. So Shirou helped out in Saber's character arc throughout the Fate route. Okay, fair enough. But why does that mean he has to be the protagonist? If that Fate route is supposed to be about Saber feeling guilty about past mistakes and Shirou is helping her move past it, then why not have Saber be the player character and let us experience that more directly? Shirou could still have all those influences as a side character, and it would make for a more interesting game because we get to switch to a different character's perspective. Plus, it's a visual novel, it's not like it would be very difficult to program. What you're not getting here is that the entire FSN is all about Shirou's ideals and how they're presented in each route. Why aren't servants the main characters? You could pretty much say the same thing to every single Fate work out there. Fyi, we do get Saber's perspective in Fate route. 2life said: Dull_Lull said: What mess? Saber had a clear goal in mind. She wants to win the holy grail because spoilers and she had no reason to disclose her true wish to Shirou since she wants to keep it a secret and Shirou respects her request. the mess is how they presented it and how much grit saber really showed that she wanted the grail. Other than "i failed as a king" there doesn't spark much from it nor can we actually cheer her on. In UBW we get to see a saber who wants to fight, but we don't feel the necessity as Archer takes away the spotlight. It is not a bad thing but saber definitely isn't as focused as she was in Stay Night to let her derail to a house maid. The way Archer presented it feels like he has more up his sleeve, that was something saber missed because her interactions were stoic and superficial. Surprised that the focus in UBW is actually Shirou and Archer instead of Saber? Saber is stoic in general. That's literally her entire character in every media she's presented unless if it's a comedic spin-off. She has closed off her true self from everyone since her time as a king and nobody knows her true nature. She's a machine acting up on her ideals. A literal parallel to Shirou. |
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| You hate Shirou? Even after he gave us such famous quotes as 'People die if they are killed' and 'Just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right'? |
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Dull_Lull said: Gilliesss said: The typical “you like this show so your opinion is irrelevant.” If you’re gonna go on about index at least read the light novels so you can make valid points. I’ll admit I got a bit off topic. Shirou’s motivation is fair enough. There could’ve been improvement but at least it works in terms of the story. That said Fate UBW isn’t anywhere near perfect. Saber didn’t ever feel like she had a clear objective and was all over the place, Shirou does still have a lot of overused tropes, and a lot of characters are still very basic. Let’s just agree to disagree, as you can tell debating isn’t my strong point and neither of us look like we are gonna change our minds anytime soon. Where did I say that luv? Tell me quickly. I'm saying it's ironic of you considering you're a fan of Index which is constantly criticized by anime-onlies for being a tragic mess compared to Railgun. Stfu lul Touma has been scrutinized since forever for being a "typical goody-two-shoes" and Misaka in Sisters arc ain't that far from Shirou's character and you're here trying your hardest to ignore my points. Please... have some self-awareness ffs. Very funny of you to tell me to read the LNs. How about you? Have you read the FSN VN? What mess? Saber had a clear goal in mind. She wants to win the holy grail because Fate route spoilers and she had no reason to disclose her true wish to Shirou since she wants to keep it a secret and Shirou respects her request unlike in Fate route when they shared a dream together that fueled Shirou's drive to change Saber's mind about her wish. Dude, I tried to end this conversation peacefully. I agreed with half of what you said and you still feel the need to go on the offensive. To answer your question yes I have read the visual novel. Can you stop comparing fate to a completely different show? I only like index because of its world building, completely different to the appeal of Fate. If you haven’t noticed I even rated fate UBW an 8 so I really don’t dislike it that much, there were just a few flaws that I noticed. Your opinion is different to mine, and I’m not going to change it so can we move on? |
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ya_hallo said: You hate Shirou? Even after he gave us such famous quotes as 'People die if they are killed' and 'Just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right'? not exactly hate, but rather annoying. he could have been more proactive rather than being a stabbing bag (trice). biggest plot armor was escalon though |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
deg said: 2life said: Remember when Shiro just couldn't use common sense? Remember when Sieg just stood there ready to be killed? Remember when Hakuno is just the most silent mummy you've seen? who is Hakuno? and lol i guess you will hate Fujimaru more on Fate Grand Order Babylonia and im reading some comments about Fake Strange Fake that the MC which is a girl this time is also seen as annoying by some hakuno is from Grand Order First Order. he is a stab bag and shooting target at once! Perfect to practice your servants skills on edit: i meant Extra Encore |
2lifeApr 30, 2020 2:22 AM
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
deg said: 2life said: hakuno is from Grand Order First Order. he is a stab bag and shooting target at once! Perfect to practice your servants skills on err this First Order show? https://myanimelist.net/anime/34321/Fate_Grand_Order__First_Order Fujimaru is the MC there and i do not remember and even see this Hakuno name on the character list oops, big oops, i meant fate Extra Encore |
| Maybe watching, maybe reading, probably living |
2life said: ya_hallo said: You hate Shirou? Even after he gave us such famous quotes as 'People die if they are killed' and 'Just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right'? not exactly hate, but rather annoying. he could have been more proactive rather than being a stabbing bag (trice). biggest plot armor was escalon though Except he is proactive though? If there's anything I hate the most, it's the notion that people have been spreading for no reason since forever that Shirou does nothing in the show when he's literally so active and actually takes matters into his own hands. It's Avalon. |
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| That's why should watch Prisma Illya. Truly the best Fate with chad Illya as MC. I like Shero, but I agree with you on Hakuno. Then again Last Encore is a pile of shit throughout so at least he fits in :^) |
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Psajdak said: I was always under impression that Shiro being all nice was really just an excuse to draw more girls to his house. I mean, at the end of the day it is a visual novel with multiple sex scenes. I guess that's kind of the assumed goal in the game. |
| Thread locked for breaking the rule 2. of Anime Discussion board: Please refrain from creating threads that do not encourage meaningful and/or civil discussion. This includes, but is not limited to: a. picture collecting b. random "xx vs. yy" (e.g. random anime/manga/character xx vs. random anime/manga/character yy) c. gossiping about individuals (e.g. youtubers, channels/videos, MAL members, other sites' users, etc.) d. personal storytelling, narration, ranting, and/or blog-style posts; these topics only encourage a one-way discussion where members are commenting on the poster's idea, and should be posted using blog feature instead This thread broke this rule because there isn't a clear discussion topic and discussion is therefore all over the place. It would be better to post your thoughts about Fate a blog post instead. |
MrZawaApr 30, 2020 5:37 AM
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