| In a sense, saying yes to that question seems crazy because we all have seen the whole indirect kiss trope and many others that seem almost wimpy to us. This would lead us to believe no, the Japanese are more "prude" and sexually repressed than westerners. On the other hand they don't shy away from producing works that really walk on thin ice between sexy and porn, as well as comfortably putting sexual images and sexual situations in shows that are not inherently sexual, aside from not hesitating to sexualize that which is seen as untouchable in the west, such as incest and minors. So, here's my question: do you think the Japanese are more open to sexual displays than westerners or do you think such over sexuality in anime is merely because sex sells? |
 Leading biologist Scott Pitnick said: The bigger your 'nads, the smaller your brains |
| As far as I know, some kind of tropes are common in anime because they want to encourage teenagers in Japan to be more open, I don't know if the situation is the same for adult content tho. I think I've heard that there happens to be many adults that are very lonely and really shy, I don't know if this sexual content is aimed for them in order to encourage them too. |
| "We could make the world better, but it's easier to just shut our eyes." ~Blackwall |
| They're more visually open, less verbally open. 'MURICA is more verbally open, less visually open. |
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| They're not nessecarily more or less open, they just have entirely different ideas about the entire thing. I can't really explain because I think I've only seen the tip of the iceberg myself but since Japan never really had lots of christian influence and remained primarily buddhist and shintoist they have completely different values. |
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| The japanese are way more prude as a society, the only thing you could maybe argue is that they are more open to fringe fetishes in niche fiction but even that is debatable. There's so much weird and gross western porn as well, for example. Pornhub is full of incest storylines, which are of course not real (neither is animated incest) but it means they don't shy away from pandering to that fetish either. I mean yes, Japan has ecchi and stuff, but at the end of the day that just shows how prude they are because it's mostly very tame compared to when the west actively sexualizes stuff in media. It's simply more indirect and leaves more to the imagination by not being as explicit and arguably more creative and that makes it feel different from western sexualization, but I'd say from a neutral perspective it's definitely not a sign of being more open. In my opinion they are much less open and because of that they find different ways to express themselves when it comes to sex stuff. Ways that the west doesn't 'need' because in western media you can basically do whatever you went in terms of sexualization anyway., inlcuding showing sex scenes on daytime TV and whatnot. If you want to explore sexuality, you just do that directly by having characters fuck each other on camera and talk about it explicitly, rather than taking the anime perspective of a horny, but inexperienced teenager that gets crazy over the thought of seeing panties or accidentally touching someone's boobs because real sex seems so far removed from his life that you will barely ever see it being a topic in anime. I don't mean that in a negative way, but most of how anime explores sexuality feels like that teenage perspective on it, putting sex on a kind of pedestal and often equating any kind of sexual urge, interest or fantasies in characters to 'being a pervert', while in the west it's more about the adult perspective, about treating sex as something casual that isn't really special and doesn't warrant too much of a reaction. I actually like that about anime compared to most western media. I prefer it when sex isn't depicted as something super casual that everyone does with every stranger at the firs topportunity they have. But I don't like anime's obsession with referring to anything sexual as 'perversion' either. There should be a middle ground where sex is treated as something more intimate and special and not like the equivalent of eating or breathing, while at the same time acknowledging that exploring it and fantasizing about it in various ways is natural and the word 'perversion' should really only be applied to the fringes of fetishization. But there isn't a whole lot of media out there like that, I feel. Of course in both cases how it is seen in 'real' society and how it is depicted in fiction can often vary and the attitudes to sex IRL are more conservative than in fiction. The only area where Japan is definitely more open is when it comes to sexualization of children in animation. Is that enough to call their whole country/culture more open? That's a definite no from me. |
AlcoholicideSep 8, 2019 9:21 AM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| I agree with Pullman's assessment about how it's more so just different rather than one being more or less open than the other. For what it's worth, keep in mind that anime is not a representative sample of Japanese culture; there's a lot more sexuality in anime than in Japanese culture on average. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Anime may be relatively sexualized but Japanese culture and society in general? No, definitely not |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: I agree with Pullman's assessment about how it's more so just different rather than one being more or less open than the other. For what it's worth, keep in mind that anime is not a representative sample of Japanese culture; there's a lot more sexuality in anime than in Japanese culture on average. That's not exactly what I said, or at least not what I meant. I meant in fiction/media it's 'different' BECAUSE as a culture the japanese have a more repressive attitude about sex and therefore takes a different approach to tackle it in media. America in particular (europe less so, which makes it hard to talk about 'the west' as one uniform entity) also has a more repressive attitude compared to its media (like Japan), but compared to Japan I'd say they're still pretty open as a culture. But yeah, speaking strictly of its depiction in media, it is hard to compare and best described as just being different. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| one thing I do know is that people tend to think Japan is less sexually active than it actually is. I think BBC did a video once about what % of people have sex or the such, but they excluded any statistics from married couples or something, so that skewed the percentages by a lot |
 'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
| Japan does have an erotic culture but I'm not sure how I'm going to compare it to the west. They have game shows that are just downright sexual comedy in the literal sense and it's not limited to the media either. They legit have other stuff like festivals that celebrate the sexual organs of the body. |
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| If that's the case, why do they censor their porn? |
Bakchos said: Its not there because sex simply sells do you think such over sexuality in anime is merely because sex sells? Everyone has a interests in sex and how open the show is depends on the author of the source and what they like But even if the selling point of a show is sexual doesn't equal easy profit. Just look at Keijo since it didn't make enough of a profit anime wise to the point even the manga got cancelled  At least thats what I heard was the reason years ago. New details could of arrived that Im unaware of But just look at the studio that did Keijo. They didn't earn enough money and got reacquired by I.G and then got bought by Sunrise and no longer exist as a company despite making almost exclusively Ecchi focused shows for years Companies know sex sells since people like it but they aren't dumb enough to put it in thinking it could actually make stable amounts of profit like if sex is all you need for people to blindly buy the product |
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| The best way to answer this question is to crack open a book by a qualified researcher instead of polling the forum. All I can really say on this subject, based on what I've read, is that modern Japan is a product of Westernization and a revival of Chinese Confucianism. In the distant past, ancient Japan was probably a matriarchy run by Shinto priestesses. Even as Chinese culture "civilized" the Japanese, the sexuality and sexual pleasure of women in Japanese stories remained much more important in Japan than in Western cultures. And in regards to sexual expression, all of Japan's great watercolor artists prior to the Meiji revolution made pornography (shunga) in every possible fetish. Restrictions on homosexuality are products of Confucianism's obsession with filial piety and producing grandchildren, and Western medicine, which regarded homosexuality as a mental disease. Modernization and the creation of nationalism in the style of the West meant the creation of a professional Western style army. According to Western medicine, sexual energy was harmful and needed to be channeled into service to the state and army. Gender roles become much more rigid. So, these bad foreign influences led them into trouble. Whether Japanese today are really prudish I can't say- but contemporary Japanese sexual beliefs and practices are shaped by this history. PsychoticDave said: If that's the case, why do they censor their porn? You can blame Commodore Perry and Douglas MacArthur for that. In order to impress United States sempai and United Kingdom sempai, Meiji Japan began restricting anything a Christians complained about as immoral, including stamping out pornography. After WWII the American army tightly controlled Japanese media in practice while relaxing all legal censorship except for the 1907 law on the censorship of pornography. Incidentally the law produced a postwar cottage industry of sexually frustrated housewives and horny teenage boys who were paid by the police to view pornography prior to distribution and cut out the genitals with razor blades or ink them out lol |
glassknucklesSep 8, 2019 11:59 AM
IpreferEcchi said: They're more visually open, less verbally open. 'MURICA is more verbally open, less visually open. This sounds about right. This is pretty much what I've noticed while watching things from both countries. |
IpreferEcchi said: what?They're more visually open, less verbally open. 'MURICA is more verbally open, less visually open. Tits are all over American TV and you're saying that... unbelievable. Lmao Setsuei said: try watching something that isn't anime.IpreferEcchi said: They're more visually open, less verbally open. 'MURICA is more verbally open, less visually open. This sounds about right. This is pretty much what I've noticed while watching things from both countries. |
| *lampoons inwardly* |
| I like IPE's take more, as brief as it is and as much as it disgusts me to agree with him in anything. Or at least I like it more in the sense that I think sexualization in western media is often very strongly lacking compared to the emphasis that anime, manga, and a lot of Japanese videogames specifically can place on it. I find a lot of western takes on ecchi-style sexualization to be very visually unappealing and, frankly, fucking boring. Seeing tits in the background or having somebody fucking off to the side while the narrative takes place and characters are giving expository dialogue or something is not exactly interesting or engaging or remotely valuable to me. I think series the Witcher and Game of Thrones when I think heavily sexualized western media, and...well, fuck the way both of them handle sexualization. It's like the equivalent of gray prison slop from my perspective. It doesn't try to accentuate itself, it doesn't try to carry itself with style or context that actually makes it seem like eroticism is important, it feels like it's a lot more common in western entertainment to take a route that feels extremely haphazard and tacked on with absolutely 0 focus or priority given to it. Why should I even give a fuck if it's just going to place it there in a way with all of the oomph of a shrug? Basic exposure or watching some other guy bang some chick are not especially thrilling to me. What Pullman described as "casual" I describe as...fucking boring. I also interpret it as more juvenile than it's being given credit for, given it's often the equivalent of slapping tits or penetration on the screen while other shit happens and calling it a day. It's tits for the sake of tits, it barely puts in thought into trying to make it more appealing or erotic, it's basic exposure or basic, dull-ass sex scenes a lot of the time. It doesn't prioritize or flaunt itself as something special to enjoy, it doesn't put as much emphasis on things like context or camerawork/paneling like we see in anime and manga, it's...what I think is pretty much the most 12 year old way possible to put tits on anything. Which is to slap it there and just have them exposed because lul. I find that this approach to including sexualization is still more prevalent in western series noted for their use of sexualization compared to works noted for the same thing in anime/manga specifically - not saying it's absent in the latter as much as I'm saying I've found way more examples of prioritization, focus/attention being given, and creativity in how things are being sexualized in anime/manga than I have in western media.Outside of that, I do think that Japan is more prudish than the west is overall - there is a world outside of anime and the fandom there, and that world censors genitals in pornography, pulls things they deem too lewd from TV all together, can be outright surprised at the existence hentai and animation that's more lewd than series like To LOVE-Ru, places intense government pressure on creators like Kentarou Yabuki because of the lewd content of their series, so on and so forth. But I should stress that believing that Japan is the more prudish of the two, I absolutely do not believe that western society is anywhere close to being an exemplar of how to handle these things and that is as relevant in the entertainment as it is anywhere. And, like I wrote most of this wall about, in anime/manga specifically, I actually greatly prefer the emphasis and elevation of this as an aspect to the series its in relative to the west's comparatively vanilla approach to using sexualization in non-pornographic media. Also, I think America is pretty damn close to Japan in a lot of ways than America itself seems to be convinced of, albeit I'd still give the prude title to Japan between the two. Western/Central Continental Europe is probably the only place in the "West versus Japan" discussion where I'm convinced kids aren't being raised to be terrified at the sight of a nipple, though. I adamently refuse to believe that a society that began the practice of circumcision, not because of religious reasons but because it makes masturbation less pleasurable, and keeps that practice to this very fucking day doesn't have a bit of a goddamn problem going on, let alone the quite conservative society. Back home, I could buy nude posters at the fucking Obimarkt, or just wherever they sold posters. Here, the mere idea seems unthinkable. The age of consent is higher than almost every European country, and Americans tend to treat this as a universal absolute everybody must adhere to the point where it bleeds through in discussion so heavily that most threads on the topic coming from Americans emphasize "18+" to the point where we pretty much go along with them, because god forbid they find out that age of consent is 14 or 15 in most EU countries and have their minds absolutely explode. Hollywood blandly placing tits in some of their movies and not censoring their pornography doesn't exactly change that prudishness is very much rooted in this society, and it's been apparent to me upon fucking landing. |
ManabanSep 8, 2019 12:07 PM
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Railey2 said: IpreferEcchi said: what?They're more visually open, less verbally open. 'MURICA is more verbally open, less visually open. Tits are all over American TV and you're saying that... unbelievable. Lmao Setsuei said: try watching something that isn't anime.This sounds about right. This is pretty much what I've noticed while watching things from both countries. In my mind I was strictly comparing anime to western animation. I'm not sure if that was what Ecchi intended, but that's how I took it. |
Railey2 said: IpreferEcchi said: what?They're more visually open, less verbally open. 'MURICA is more verbally open, less visually open. Tits are all over American TV and you're saying that... unbelievable. Lmao Setsuei said: try watching something that isn't anime.This sounds about right. This is pretty much what I've noticed while watching things from both countries. lmao what American TV are you watching? Network prime time TV has no such content because minors may be watching. One does not turn on the TV in America after 10 pm and expect to find titties without paying-per-view or paying for HBO. Depending on where you are in the country, America seems to have a great deal of ignorance about sexuality that is actively encouraged by state governments because they are pushing a Christian agenda. Manaban said: Also, I think America is pretty damn close to Japan in a lot of ways, albeit I'd still give the prude title to Japan between the two. Western/Central Continental Europe is probably the only place in the "West versus Japan" discussion where I'm convinced kids aren't being raised to be terrified at the sight of a nipple. I'm inclined to agree, I think America and Japan have points of similarity. It makes me sad to think that Japan was a place women used to walk around topless without shame, but now anime girls going "kyaa!" when their bra is ripped is an eroticization of the public shame of being topless. Thanks for nothing, America... |
glassknucklesSep 8, 2019 11:58 AM
| Definitely not as sexually open as the West. You kind of get the idea of "your business isn't my business" kind of thing. People can make some pretty kinky stuff, but it's not like you parade it around (like some people like to do with 50 Shades). Most of my friends don't talk about their sexual journeys either, unlike my American ones. Don't read into their media too much. They don't approve of incest, or sexual relationships with minors, and their perverse hobbies are often kept to themselves. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Deknijff said: The problem with shows like Keijo is simply they have nothing to offer aside from ecchi content, while other shows have good characters and intruiging plot and ecchi on top. Bakchos said: Its not there because sex simply sells do you think such over sexuality in anime is merely because sex sells? Everyone has a interests in sex and how open the show is depends on the author of the source and what they like But even if the selling point of a show is sexual doesn't equal easy profit. Just look at Keijo since it didn't make enough of a profit anime wise to the point even the manga got cancelled At least thats what I heard was the reason years ago. New details could of arrived that Im unaware of But just look at the studio that did Keijo. They didn't earn enough money and got reacquired by I.G and then got bought by Sunrise and no longer exist as a company despite making almost exclusively Ecchi focused shows for years Companies know sex sells since people like it but they aren't dumb enough to put it in thinking it could actually make stable amounts of profit like if sex is all you need for people to blindly buy the product Aside from the animated shows, dont forget all the sex toys japan invented. I wouldnt really consider muricans as a proud standard for openly displaying western sexual habits though. Not in times when celebs have to do the hover hands to not get blamed for sexual offense and arguments about feeding your baby in public. Dont they even have to censor nips? I think its pretty even just in different ways. Being sexually open and annoying your neighbors with your kinks also isnt the same for me. |
| "This emotion is mine alone. It is for Madoka alone." - Homura or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. |
| You can't really say anything unless you've been to both places yourself. |
ええ、私はそこにいてそれをやった  |
Comander-07 said: But Keijo has plenty of good characters and an intriguing sports plot with funny battle shounen powers so I don't get what you're talking about Deknijff said: The problem with shows like Keijo is simply they have nothing to offer aside from ecchi content, while other shows have good characters and intruiging plot and ecchi on top.Its not there because sex simply sells Everyone has a interests in sex and how open the show is depends on the author of the source and what they like But even if the selling point of a show is sexual doesn't equal easy profit. Just look at Keijo since it didn't make enough of a profit anime wise to the point even the manga got cancelled At least thats what I heard was the reason years ago. New details could of arrived that Im unaware of But just look at the studio that did Keijo. They didn't earn enough money and got reacquired by I.G and then got bought by Sunrise and no longer exist as a company despite making almost exclusively Ecchi focused shows for years Companies know sex sells since people like it but they aren't dumb enough to put it in thinking it could actually make stable amounts of profit like if sex is all you need for people to blindly buy the product |
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| Haven't been to Japan but the japanese people I know have tended to be more reserved and conservative so there's that.. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Comander-07 said: The problem with shows like Keijo is simply they have nothing to offer aside from ecchi content, while other shows have good characters and intruiging plot and ecchi on top. A lot of people say this about ecchi-heavy series, that they have absolutely nothing else going for them aside from ecchi. Never understood this, and I don't think I especially care to, given how absolutist it tends to be and how my own experience with these same types of series run strongly counter-intuitive to that. It feels like if it passes a certain threshold of focus, people all of a sudden take a black and white view of things where "it has this much sexualized fanservice so everything else must be shit' and then, rather thoughtlessly, accepting that as the truth. |
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Manaban said: yeah because thats exactly or even slightly what I said, is it?Comander-07 said: The problem with shows like Keijo is simply they have nothing to offer aside from ecchi content, while other shows have good characters and intruiging plot and ecchi on top. A lot of people say this about ecchi-heavy series, that they have absolutely nothing else going for them aside from ecchi. Never understood this, and I don't think I especially care to, given how absolutist it tends to be and how my own experience with these same types of series run strongly counter-intuitive to that. It feels like if it passes a certain threshold of focus, people all of a sudden take a black and white view of things where "it has this much sexualized fanservice so everything else must be shit' and then, rather thoughtlessly, accepting that as the truth. This isnt about ecchi heavy series, this is about ecchi only series. Take a look at Monogatari and tell me there is no ecchi, even heavy ecchi at times. Now tell me, is ecchi the first thing you think about when you hear Monogatari? Deknijff said: Thats why it was so successfull then I guess.Comander-07 said: But Keijo has plenty of good characters and an intriguing sports plot with funny battle shounen powers so I don't get what you're talking about The problem with shows like Keijo is simply they have nothing to offer aside from ecchi content, while other shows have good characters and intruiging plot and ecchi on top. |
| "This emotion is mine alone. It is for Madoka alone." - Homura or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. |
Comander-07 said: This isnt about ecchi heavy series, this is about ecchi only series. The series you cite as an example of this is completely counter-intuitive to what you're talking about, though. Because it's not ecchi-only, not at all, and there are extremely few series that can be argued to be as much. You either dismiss things in the exact same way that I'm talking about now, or are completely talking out of your ass with your example because there's no way that could adequately be justified, unless you are secretly an 11 year old who had no sexual experiences prior to watching it and then entered a state of shock upon seeing fanservice in anime. Which, I heavily doubt is the case. I think the closest things that can be said to be as much are the psuedo-hentai shorts that pop up from time to time. Which have relatively low member counts on this site and I rarely see them brought up, and are entirely unrelated to the series you cited as a specific example of this. In short - if we're using the series you yourself cited as an example of what you think is the issue, we are very, very much talking about ecchi-heavy series, and there is a fine line between featuring it prominently and featuring it exclusively. Comander-07 said: Thats why it was so successfull then I guess. It wasn't. It got canceled prematurely because of a lack of financial returns. The exact same guy you're quoting already cited this exact same thing in this exact thread as an example of sex not being a 100% guaranteed sell. |
ManabanSep 8, 2019 12:48 PM
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Comander-07 said: I mean success rates have nothing to do with quality of the show. A show or movie can be impressively made and have a lot of heart in it and still be seen as a failure financially like 1982s The Thing that only got popular after VHS release and finding the correct audience Deknijff said: Thats why it was so successful then I guess.But Keijo has plenty of good characters and an intriguing sports plot with funny battle shounen powers so I don't get what you're talking about  |
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Comander-07 said: Take a look at Monogatari and tell me there is no ecchi, even heavy ecchi at times. Now tell me, is ecchi the first thing you think about when you hear Monogatari Relative to a lot of contemporaries in being seen as ecchi? Only Nise really even approaches, and even that's only in one or two isolated incidents, which makes me argue against calling Nise itself as the installment of the series that actually approaches being ecchi-heavy. Outside of a couple of incidents from Nise, I would definitely argue it's a pretty tame series. Tsukimonogatari (I think?) had the one bath scene with Tsukihi. That was also pretty nice, but also the only lewd part of it, from my recollection. When I think Monogatari, I think of a good series that gets ascribed a level of worth by its fanbase that it could never adequately uphold, to the point where it feels downright misrepresented to fabricate praise at points, more often than a lot of other series with prominent fanbases. I wouldn't call it ecchi-heavy on a holistic level by any stretch of the imagination, and I think it's debatable whether or not the tag even applies when viewing the series as a holistic entity in the first place. |
ManabanSep 8, 2019 12:53 PM
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