| So....despite what many people might think, I'm actually always on the lookout for a GOOD story based anime that will keep me intrigued and hungry for the next episode....but they are so rare due to how much logic you have to disregard. Without any jokes or memes or whatever....the real reason why I just can't accept an anime like SAO or Re:Zero is due to this suspension of disbelief....it's too much and it causes me to ask too many questions which throw me off the enjoyment of the story. If you constantly have to ask how and why things are done while accepting the mechanics of the world and the rules of said world....then it's a problem. For example (and I know this isn't anime, but it's just an example).....in the world of Harry Potter, you're already suspending your logic to accept that magic is real and can do all sorts of things...but there are rules to this magic. The moment the rules are completely broken for the sake of advancing the plot or creating drama or whatever....you start to question the very premise which you originally came to accept.... IMO anime does this far too often. If anything this is why I've come to embrace the more simpler forms of anime such as ecchi and just fun for the sake of fun series. I'm not going to question why a regular looking dude suddenly has 10 very attractive girls wanting to suck his dick. Because the stakes in the story are not that important! Anyways....your thoughts? |
| What kind of questions you ask? I mainly ask 'what does this mean?', so I don't bother myself with questions with arbitrary answers. I don't look for realism. A lot of realism is just people being tough and stoic - hardly realistic. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| The only two things I can't stand with an anime plot are the MC being in the afterlife/getting killed and then revived as the premise, and the MC trolling another character for the entire fucking show and only admitting it at the end as an excuse for not wanting to get intimate with them. The latter happened in one of the pseudo incest shows. They weren't related at all and the MC could have been doing things with his "sister". What's the fucking point of that one, then? It's all built on a lie. |
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| I guess I don't feel the same way? I do look for good stories but also ones that are enjoyable, in such a way that the way the anime wants to make you feel is achieved (like, if it wants to make you laugh, or if it wants to make you cry, or if it wants to make you rethink something). I don't think I think about that stuff too much. |
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| I don't have many problems with those things unless they get really ridiculous (like the scene of SAO when |
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| the problem is not suspension of disbelive it self, but the unbalance flow of information and changing rules already established... it's mentally exhausting and you i need to dapt with that... it doesn't make me see a series any lower, but i simply lost interest... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Eh. Of all the criticisms one could lob at Re:Zero, and there are a lot, breaking suspension of disbelief is one I cannot relate to at all without context. It's actually quite rare for my suspension of disbelief to be broken in the sense you seem to mean, with setting mechanics being broken. I remember disliking a certain something that happened in Hunter x Hunter (2011) for that reason, but nothing else is really coming to mind. Edit: Oh yeah, the beginning of FMA '03 was a mess setting-mechanics-wise. Ugh. |
TripleSRankMay 31, 2017 5:56 AM
Darek said: Coclusion: Ecchi and moe is for the true elitists because they have barely any plot and 99% of anime with plot is shit. there's a difference between just being elitist and actually being elite glorious ecchi master race is the latter tbh fam OT: I have never had any problems with suspending my disbelief for things so this is just a non-issue to me. Maybe I'm just too accepting, but I can't recall a single time where my immersion was broken for any reason relating to the anime itself. Usually it's because somebody tries to talk to me or something happens that needs my attention. |
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Askorti said: Well, putting it that way, you have a point. It doesn't make the "rape" scene any less ridiculous, though.Illyricus said: I don't have many problems with those things unless they get really ridiculous (like the scene of SAO when Well, he was, like all the other SAO villains, completely off his rocker, so to me it makes perfect sense. He was not a sane person. Why would you expect someone like that to make smart choices? |
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| It's definitely the main reason I don't give everything I watch a 10. Whether or not it's a problem is going to depend heavily on the viewer though. As an example I find myself questioning the logic behind what I'm watching all the time, but sometimes I can think of a plausible solution even if it wasn't actually shown, so I might be less prone to it than others (not that I've watched Re:Zero or have any plans to watch SAO at all). Some shows are also just fun to watch even if they don't make sense. For instance I won't ever claim that Mirai Nikki was good because of how quickly it stopped making logical sense, but I still enjoyed it and all the crazy things it did more than the majority of the anime I've watched so it's not like I have any regrets from watching it. |
| I'm way more likely to do this with live action. Since it's real people and it's trying to get me immersed. |
Manaban said: Maybe I'm just too accepting, but I can't recall a single time where my immersion was broken for any reason relating to the anime itself. Usually it's because somebody tries to talk to me or something happens that needs my attention. I have two anime that had problems with my suspension of disbelief. First is TTGL. Specifically, the moment when they found out where the enemy base is located. Its location isn't violating physics as we know it, it cannot be mapped to anything we know about physics. Compared to that, galaxy-sized mecha in the end are nothing. (in reality, no form of matter is strong enough to support a mecha this big - I usually describe it as being made of pure awesomeness) The second is Geneshaft. It pretends to be science fiction, but either the authors are ignorant of any actual science, or their world is ruled by evil dictatorship that goes out of its way to suppress any actual science. In particular, for some reason, people in that anime are ignorant of differences between genetics and actual ability. (Hint - no matter how good your genes are, in the real world you need many years of education to even begin being useful; and about half as many years in the field to become great) JustALEX said: Without any jokes or memes or whatever....the real reason why I just can't accept an anime like SAO or Re:Zero is due to this suspension of disbelief....it's too much and it causes me to ask too many questions which throw me off the enjoyment of the story. I wonder, how do you watch mystery and especially existential mystery anime? They keep making you ask questions and think about them. (I recommend Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou as an example of the later - it's full of unexplained weird stuff, like apocalypse, but few people care, and even less people ever give any answers) Illyricus said: Askorti said: Well, putting it that way, you have a point. It doesn't make the "rape" scene any less ridiculous, though.Well, he was, like all the other SAO villains, completely off his rocker, so to me it makes perfect sense. He was not a sane person. Why would you expect someone like that to make smart choices? Sugou's establishing moment was when he boasted in front of Kirito how he is going to marry Asuna. Yes, it's perfectly in-character for him to repeat it in less civil manner later. Being such a nasty person is what makes him a villain. He could have been a wealthy corporate director and married somebody awake and willing, but no, he had to make a master plan about inventing mind control and mind controlling his employer's teenage daughter! |
| Unfortunately that happens alot to me. I can't count the number of Movies/TV series but especially Animes i dislike because of it. It doesn't matter how stupid/ridiculous/unrealistic it is as long it is well explainded and even more important is coherent. Once the coherency is lost is a downfall to hell. Is it so hard to be coherent? |
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| Nope, it doesn't have to with that at all. If a show makes you think alot then thats a good thing, no matter how dumb or ridiculous it might seem. |
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KondeKeimado said: Unfortunately that happens alot to me. I can't count the number of Movies/TV series but especially Animes i dislike because of it. It doesn't matter how stupid/ridiculous/unrealistic it is as long it is well explainded and even more important is coherent. Once the coherency is lost is a downfall to hell. Is it so hard to be coherent? What is 'coherency' and what kind of explanation you're looking for? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: KondeKeimado said: Unfortunately that happens alot to me. I can't count the number of Movies/TV series but especially Animes i dislike because of it. It doesn't matter how stupid/ridiculous/unrealistic it is as long it is well explainded and even more important is coherent. Once the coherency is lost is a downfall to hell. Is it so hard to be coherent? What is 'coherency' and what kind of explanation you're looking for? Coherence is when you "build" a world that is ruled by a number of rules (some of them based on real life and others by the producers) and no matter what those rules are never violated. What many anime do is at some point break those rules just to move the plot. And in most cases once they done it the first time nothing stop them to do with more times which they usually do. Power of frienship, plot armor, resurections, sudden changes to a character personality, execptions in the laws fo time and physics are just some examples of this. |
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| I just chalk up everything that can't be explained in anime to "anime logic" and call it a day |
   I envy your delusion; I wish I could live in it  |
Darek said: KondeKeimado said: What if the setting explains those things existing? they might as well be part of its reality. Sudden changes in character might be an effect of some mental disorder, power of friendship may have some effect on some magical power bullcrap the story came up with and so on.Coherence is when you "build" a world that is ruled by a number of rules (some of them based on real life and others by the producers) and no matter what those rules are never violated. What many anime do is at some point break those rules just to move the plot. And in most cases once they done it the first time nothing stop them to do with more times which they usually do. Power of frienship, plot armor, resurections, sudden changes to a character personality, execptions in the laws fo time and physics are just some examples of this. I agree when you talk about setting. It can easly explain almost everything. But power of frienship and plot armor are never one of those things and are just example of really bad writing. Sudden changes must be explained (don´t have to be imediatly) otherwise they are just too convenient (bad writing). But perhapes i am just being to much picky. Afterall there is tons of animes/tv series/movies that suffer from all this problems and i still love them from some reason. I would simply prefer that the people who write them have more careful with this (big) details since they can really affect the plausibility, the immersion and the enjoyment of a story. |
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Darek said: KondeKeimado said: What if the setting explains those things existing? they might as well be part of its reality. Sudden changes in character might be an effect of some mental disorder, power of friendship may have some effect on some magical power bullcrap the story came up with and so on.Coherence is when you "build" a world that is ruled by a number of rules (some of them based on real life and others by the producers) and no matter what those rules are never violated. What many anime do is at some point break those rules just to move the plot. And in most cases once they done it the first time nothing stop them to do with more times which they usually do. Power of frienship, plot armor, resurections, sudden changes to a character personality, execptions in the laws fo time and physics are just some examples of this. More like, most anime just tacitly assume that a lot of these things exist. They aren't set in a strictly cold universe where nothing unusual ever happens. For example, an anime that has nothing to do with supernatural and mostly deals with sci-fi stuff might randomly have a ghost. People who do not understand that and keep complaining about wonders happening are annoying, aren't they? |
Darek said: KondeKeimado said: They can be done well too, I do not really see it as bad writing if that is supposed to be its primary goal, they may be lazy at most since the author could come up with something better or in some cases he can for example play with it like some authors play around with tropes, since you said resurrecting before I will use it as an example, the author may resurrect a character granted it is plausible in the realism of the setting, for example necromancy, I would personally prefer if he also made some downsides to it and not make it all sunshine and rainbows and perhaps have him turn into a bloodthristy vampire instead (I am kinda basing this one off off a game actually that did that lmao) but you can cleverly use a certain thing commonly considered bad and play around with it to make it good.I agree when you talk about setting. It can easly explain almost everything. But power of frienship and plot armor are never one of those things and are just example of really bad writing. Sudden changes must be explained (don´t have to be imediatly) otherwise they are just too convenient (bad writing). But perhapes i am just being to much picky. Afterall there is tons of animes/tv series/movies that suffer from all this problems and i still love them from some reason. I would simply prefer that the people who write them have more careful with this (big) details since they can really affect the plausibility, the immersion and the enjoyment of a story. For the most part i agree with you. If done well i have no problems with that. Unfortunately 99% of times it isn't well executed and thats why i prefer when they simply avoid it. |
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| Is it just me or why CE users migrating to AD now? Anyway, I dunno about that, I always have this feeling that there's something that is lacking in the story but if I can't point it out it might be due to the fact that it isn't the source material. :/ |
| The main problem with anime are the retarded fans who seem to think themselves intellectuals with their elitist opinions that mean shit. suspension of disbelief has ne'er been nor will e'er be a problem with fiction. |
| Plot-wise, I really don't care and just go with it. When it comes to a character's actions and feelings, if they act unrealistically, that can really make me hate the writers. Like when a character is too tolerant of someone who is abusing them, or too untrusting, or too selfish or too immature or too weak for no good reason, THAT can set me off like "NO HUMAN BEING ACTS LIKE THIS" type of rage. lol Case 'n Point F*CKING NOPE. MANGA IRREDEEMABLE FOREVER. .....oops, there, you see? The rage came out. XD Just talking about that one makes me really angry. |
ChiibiMay 31, 2017 7:47 AM
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Darek said: flannan said: I am not too sure what are you implying.More like, most anime just tacitly assume that a lot of these things exist. They aren't set in a strictly cold universe where nothing unusual ever happens. For example, an anime that has nothing to do with supernatural and mostly deals with sci-fi stuff might randomly have a ghost. People who do not understand that and keep complaining about wonders happening are annoying, aren't they? 1) Most anime are set in interesting worlds. Where strength of one's spirit is no less important than strength of one's sword arm. Where mysterious and unexplained stuff like ghosts, aliens and minor miracles just happens (even if the characters might not believe in them). Where good guys win. 2) Anime doesn't bother announcing that. That's just the way Japanese see the world when they aren't being deadly serious and disillusioned. 3) A lot of pretentious viewers in the West complain about breaking internal rules and stuff when things from point 1 happen. They are wrong: point 1 has always been the rule. 4) I tried to say it in such a way as to avoid listing you among people in point 3. About things I did not say: there is a "law" of magic: magic's ability to solve problems is proportional to viewer's understanding of said magic. Solving the main plot with magic the viewer does not understand is deus ex machina and bad writing. Solving the main plot with magic the viewer does understand is the expected outcome in anime about magic. Mysterious stuff that happens in anime is not understood, and hence it tends to only provide minor help. On the other hand, strength of spirit giving the protagonist ability to endure heavy damage and unleash attacks beyond his normal capacity is well-understood by anybody who watches anime, and does not need re-statement. |
JustALEX said: The moment the rules are completely broken for the sake of advancing the plot or creating drama or whatever....you start to question the very premise which you originally came to accept.... This is exactly the problem I have with Noein, a series I had so very much hope for, and that then when on to fail miserably at remaining true to its premise. There are some things I can accept in anime: supernatural elements, events that are not explicitly explained. There are some things that really irk me as well: inconsistency, as noted above, and emotion changing physics (I'm looking at you, Guren Lagann! Disclaimer: I couldn't stand this, and so didn't make it past the first few episodes). |
Thorn_WallMay 31, 2017 11:49 PM
| no, but if it try to establish more realism on approach and still have slip then can't help |
 ol punching bag、the official |
KondeKeimado said: Coherence is when you "build" a world that is ruled by a number of rules (some of them based on real life and others by the producers) and no matter what those rules are never violated. What many anime do is at some point break those rules just to move the plot. And in most cases once they done it the first time nothing stop them to do with more times which they usually do. Power of frienship, plot armor, resurections, sudden changes to a character personality, execptions in the laws fo time and physics are just some examples of this. Do you have any examples of these? People use them but they never dig really deeply into what is, exactly, 'plot armor'. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: KondeKeimado said: Coherence is when you "build" a world that is ruled by a number of rules (some of them based on real life and others by the producers) and no matter what those rules are never violated. What many anime do is at some point break those rules just to move the plot. And in most cases once they done it the first time nothing stop them to do with more times which they usually do. Power of frienship, plot armor, resurections, sudden changes to a character personality, execptions in the laws fo time and physics are just some examples of this. Do you have any examples of these? People use them but they never dig really deeply into what is, exactly, 'plot armor'. Almost every battle shounen, Black Lagoon, SAO are just some exemples. |
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KondeKeimado said: TheBrainintheJar said: Do you have any examples of these? People use them but they never dig really deeply into what is, exactly, 'plot armor'. Almost every battle shounen, Black Lagoon, SAO are just some exemples. Name-dropping isn't enough. I need some evidence. Remember fiction doesn't deal with probabilities. Nothing in fiction happens by chance. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| @TheBrainintheJar Kirito surpassing the limits of the game system to beat Kayaba is a perfect example. |
AltoRoark said: @TheBrainintheJar Kirito surpassing the limits of the game system to beat Kayaba is a perfect example. Why is that wrong? They gave a fancy-magical glitch explanation if I remember. What specifically was bad about it? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: KondeKeimado said: Coherence is when you "build" a world that is ruled by a number of rules (some of them based on real life and others by the producers) and no matter what those rules are never violated. What many anime do is at some point break those rules just to move the plot. And in most cases once they done it the first time nothing stop them to do with more times which they usually do. Power of frienship, plot armor, resurections, sudden changes to a character personality, execptions in the laws fo time and physics are just some examples of this. Do you have any examples of these? People use them but they never dig really deeply into what is, exactly, 'plot armor'. "Plot armor" is ability of important characters to survive in violent situations for meta reasons. This effect ranges from SoL protagonists not having any violence happening to them (and surviving any that does happen), to Black Lagoon protagonists not getting hit by bullets (even though they get shot at a lot), to Kirito fighting off that giant demon with one hit point left, to ridiculous abuse a typical harem protagonist survives on a daily basis. Note that actual super-durability and immortality, like when Kirito was intimidating those bandits with "you can't even get through my regeneration", is not an example of plot armor. Plot armor is the right way to write fiction. Only short-sighted people complain about that. |
| This is a problem of any story. When they built a world then they have to keep it consistent.It doesn't matter how unreal or fantastic that world is, what matters is how it works. They can't just do things contradictory with what they built with no good explanation. If they ignored what they themselves built then it gives they impression they don't really care or have much passion for their own story and world and just write whatever to get where they want. |
KondeKeimado said: TheBrainintheJar said: Do you have any examples of these? People use them but they never dig really deeply into what is, exactly, 'plot armor'. Almost every battle shounen, Black Lagoon, SAO are just some exemples. Such things aren't breaking the rules. They can exist just fine if the world made them excusable. Especially plot armor very rarely breaks the rules because is just luck. It seems you don't fully understand what keeping a consisted world means. |
| Well if the author/writers can't be bothered to follow their creation and the rules the made up... |
| @TheBrainintheJar Because it came out of the blue and was just a flimsy excuse for Kirito to look badass. Actually, I have a better example: In an action flick, a bunch of bad guys with machine guns fire at the hero. The hero runs through all the bullets and takes the bad guys down completely unscathed. |
Monad said: This is a problem of any story. When they built a world then they have to keep it consistent.It doesn't matter how unreal or fantastic that world is, what matters is how it works. They can't just do things contradictory with what they built with no good explanation. If they ignored what they themselves built then it gives they impression they don't really care or have much passion for their own story and world and just write whatever to get where they want. That is exactly what i´m trying to say but perhaps because of my bad english (not a native speaker) i have some difficulties to express and/or others to understand. Monad said: Such things aren't breaking the rules. They can exist just fine if the world made them excusable. Especially plot armor very rarely breaks the rules because is just luck. It seems you don't fully understand what keeping a consisted world means. I didn't said that plot armor breaks the rules especially when it happens since the very beginning. But like the lack of coherence, plot armor is another thing that make me ask to many questions and always feel that the producers are trying to make me stupid. Obviously this breaks the imersion and suspension of disbelief and make much harder to enjoy. |
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AltoRoark said: @TheBrainintheJar Because it came out of the blue and was just a flimsy excuse for Kirito to look badass. Actually, I have a better example: In an action flick, a bunch of bad guys with machine guns fire at the hero. The hero runs through all the bullets and takes the bad guys down completely unscathed. This makes perfect sense. He's the hero, he does the impossible and is supposed to kill the bad guys. Fiction is teleological. flannan said: TheBrainintheJar said: Do you have any examples of these? People use them but they never dig really deeply into what is, exactly, 'plot armor'. "Plot armor" is ability of important characters to survive in violent situations for meta reasons. This effect ranges from SoL protagonists not having any violence happening to them (and surviving any that does happen), to Black Lagoon protagonists not getting hit by bullets (even though they get shot at a lot), to Kirito fighting off that giant demon with one hit point left, to ridiculous abuse a typical harem protagonist survives on a daily basis. Note that actual super-durability and immortality, like when Kirito was intimidating those bandits with "you can't even get through my regeneration", is not an example of plot armor. Plot armor is the right way to write fiction. Only short-sighted people complain about that. I like you and I agree with you. Heroes only survive because of meta-reasons. There is no probability in fiction. It's all by design. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: AltoRoark said: @TheBrainintheJar Because it came out of the blue and was just a flimsy excuse for Kirito to look badass. Actually, I have a better example: In an action flick, a bunch of bad guys with machine guns fire at the hero. The hero runs through all the bullets and takes the bad guys down completely unscathed. This makes perfect sense. He's the hero, he does the impossible and is supposed to kill the bad guys. Fiction is teleological. It's plot armor. Charging through a barrage of bullets unharmed makes no kind of sense no matter how you look at it. This approach in storytelling prevents any sort of tension or sense of struggle, which is why Kill la Kill chooses to ignore these logical principles, because it chooses to be goofy instead of serious. A serious show on the other hand would shatter the immersion with this kind of scenario. In a more grounded story, it's far more interesting for the hero to utilize some form of tactical setup, demonstrating his prowess in strategy instead of his ability to do impossible things. |
| For me, I believe how much or how little you should suspend your disbelief should come with the work in question. If something sets itself up as a series that has no rules, then I would say it's the viewer's problem for taking issue with the series in question for being too absurd or outlandish. On the other hand, if something makes itself grounded or has established rules and concepts, then throws in something that's just completely out there, then that can definitely pull you out. On the other hand, it also depends on how well (or poorly) this new element is executed. You could have game changers like that executed in such a way that they shake up the board and completely change things without totally messing things up. All in all, I think it depends. I wouldn't say it's a "main problem" with anime by any means, though. |
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