edl01 said: shawnofthedeadz said: Honestly, I don't see how this is any different than North America (and I would assume other similar countries). We also label it here as a "lesbian phase". The only notable difference I would expect is that Japan's version occurs in school whereas in NA it is in college/university as sub 18 relationships are fround upon more heavily. In neither countries are lesbian relationships taken entirely seriously, but I guess that could be said with most LGBT issues. So it's much more a world wide social issue rather than a Japanese only cultural problem. While stereotypes about the LGBT community certainly exist, they are nowhere near as widely held as in Japan. I'm a University student myself and I can name on one hand how many people around me have stated such a belief...in fact I don't need any hands because no one has said that to me in my age group. We've came a long way in the past decade when it comes to LGBT rights and one of the benefits of that is that myths like that are starting to fade. Specifically among people under 30. Or phrased differently what you're doing is comparing a fairly fairly dated stereotype with a Social Norm that is perpetuated by the country's mass media. But even ignoring that there is many other factors about Japan that make life as a member of the LGBT community far more unpleasant. Nowadays in most of western society homosexuality is accepted. In Japan that isn't the case. Being gay is still seen as, "Weird", and often publicly mocked. As lady_freyja has mentioned it is very common to see anime characters dressed in the typical, "Okama", fashion like Puri Puri Prisoner(Who is a gay man who just happens to "comically" attempt rape other men). Can you imagine if a modern day western TV show had a character like that? The outrage would be universal and the show would be derided! But in Japanese television it almost seems like the norm! Japan isn't even at the point where they have anti-discrimination laws preventing co-workers, classmates and most importantly employers from penalizing their employees for their sexuality. Western Culture still has a ways to go before we stamp out negative stereotypes and opinions of the LGBT community. But when comparing it to Japanese culture it is clearly far more accepting. P.S. Sorry if I got a bit rant-y towards the end of this post. It's not directed at you, the whole Class S really does annoy me. I think that if you dig enough you can find more of these "ahah look I'm gay" characters in western shows even if not as extreme looking as this puripuri prisoner. I've had my share of movies and tv series with sexual elements in them and I've seen all kinds of crazy shit, gatchaman season one in particular where some coding (blushes and stuff out of nowhere) makes so there isn't really some hetero couple. The LGBT stuff is most interesting because of gimmicks you can come up with. How do you write a character never to be addressed as he or she but instead can be whatever desired (unlike Izana from Sidonia no Kishi but hers is interesting stuff too)? And even when maturity kicks into some romance, that's a genre of love at first sight/ crushes/blushes/triangles and rituals which are really socially shared standarts to treat arguments in a safe way. So instead of exploring someone's sexuality you go through this stuff about doing things properly according to romance, "let's question this crush as a phase", first kisses and sort of platonic stuff as drama hook for the audience. |
FondenteSep 16, 2016 4:47 AM
| @lady_freyja Whoops. Too many labels -- too confusing. I'll remember that from now on. Thanks! |
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| Well, all these homosexuality propaganda is a bad joke, so hard to take it serious. |
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| @drgy55 You try lily love (its a thai comic book) that sounds more of what you're looking for. And you can try visual novels too. I'm currently playing flowers le volume sur printempts. (also my first vn) Regarding your op. Fanservice and all girls schools are sort of a necessary evil. To attract more people into the genre. |
| @lady_freja Thanks for the interesting read! Despite the historical evidence, it's still not the yuri I ultimately want, but whateva xD I guess while the philosophical, spiritual Yuri stuff is cool and all my guy side really wants something more straightforward. Yuri is very whimsical I've found and almost never straightforward (just like REAL GURLZ) *mindblow* scruf4ls said: @drgy55 You try lily love (its a thai comic book) that sounds more of what you're looking for. And you can try visual novels too. I'm currently playing flowers le volume sur printempts. (also my first vn) Regarding your op. Fanservice and all girls schools are sort of a necessary evil. To attract more people into the genre. A Thai comic book? Lol alright I'll try that, there was one VN I wanted to try that just came out recently... gosh I can't remember the name something about being on a roof. I also wanted to try a Kiss for the Petals if that's any good! |
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drgy55 said: A Thai comic book? Lol alright I'll try that, there was one VN I wanted to try that just came out recently... gosh I can't remember the name something about being on a roof. I also wanted to try a Kiss for the Petals if that's any good! Definitely give both games a try. Kindred Spirits on the Roof is nice & cute. While the released Kiss for the Petal is basically AU MadoHomu (if you ship those two) lol |
GaoGaoTama said: drgy55 said: A Thai comic book? Lol alright I'll try that, there was one VN I wanted to try that just came out recently... gosh I can't remember the name something about being on a roof. I also wanted to try a Kiss for the Petals if that's any good! Definitely give both games a try. Kindred Spirits on the Roof is nice & cute. While the released Kiss for the Petal is basically AU MadoHomu (if you ship those two) lol Excellent, then I will try them both on your recommendation :D I will ship them if they are cute... the only pairing I'm very concerned with right now is Kumiko and Reina because if Kumiko ends up with Shuuichi you're going to see a headline on CNN titled "Violent Fan Breaks and Enters KyoAni Studios!" |
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| CROSS ANGE bunch of hot lesbian girls |
Cross  AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
| Well I personally believe we need more Sakura Trick-like series in order to save anime |
My Queens  |
drgy55 said: Excellent, then I will try them both on your recommendation :D I will ship them if they are cute... the only pairing I'm very concerned with right now is Kumiko and Reina because if Kumiko ends up with Shuuichi you're going to see a headline on CNN titled "Violent Fan Breaks and Enters KyoAni Studios!" Tbh, going into Hibike S2, I wouldn't have my hope up that KyoAni is going for the yuri route if I were you. It's not what the original novel intended & I don't think they are brave enough to go against it. At most, hope for an open ending where no one ends up with anyone. But I'd still say that we shouldn't think about the shipping matter in that series too much. That way, it'll be less painful for the hearts... |
| Anybody who's actually read this thread would realize by now that Sakura Trick and Yuru Yuri are the least legitimate yuri. If the mere act of kissing minus the emotional relationship part is what they consider as proper or serious yuri then programming two robots to mash lips and exchange spit would suffice. Sakura Trick and Yuru Yuri were actually colossally boring to those of us who appreciate actual relationship development. Both shows had their humorous moments and the girls were cute but that's about it. Sakura Trick is like hentai without the sex. Yuru Yuri is just CGDCT with yuri teasing for humor. |
8oomerSep 18, 2016 2:54 AM
| Avatar: Anzu Kadotani from Girls und Panzer. XMas awesomeness version by Charenji :) Sig by MissIntrovert.  |
| So yh we pretty much have an answer now.... But I wonder 1 thing. Why is there no Anime with handicapped characters? I know there are wheelchair bound/Blind/deaf Characters. |
Bourmegar said: another western mystery, you guys are so obsessed with glorifying minority and disability irlSo yh we pretty much have an answer now.... But I wonder 1 thing. Why is there no Anime with handicapped characters? I know there are wheelchair bound/Blind/deaf Characters. isnt that grisaia something and koe no katachi anime with disable |
Cross AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
AltoRoark said: CherryLover said: To denote such a pretentious failure of an anime like Madoka a "yuri" is laughable at best. I wonder if we were watching the same series. You didn't see any kind of yuri innuendos in that show? Not when shounen have friends go to extreme measures for each other just to be friends. I mean, honestly look at bleach and naruto. Honestly, I only see yuri if they show a physical attraction as well as an emotional one. |
drgy55 said: Strawberrycake48 said: Yeah, I love a good Yuri but they're so hard to come across; girl x girl relationships are more often than not treated as just another fan service mechanism. It's weird, bc they can get pretty risqué with it...especially in stuff like Fate Kaleid. In fact, I'd say that the intensity of yuri teasing in anime easily eclipses that of the yaoi teasing. Sure, Free has its little gaybro moments but we don't see Nagisa and Rei going in for the dick grab, and there's no sloppy kissing sessions between Rin and Haru. I don't really get why yuri isn’t treated more seriously, because there's clearly an audience if they're baiting. Or perhaps target audience is actually problem, I dunno? Since that might change if a girl x girl relationship is treated more seriously- a series might have to take a tonal shift to create a realistic romance, as well as the treatment of “taboo” subjects. That sort of thing can make or break any series. Then there’s the fact that the few "main" Yuri titles out there feel pretty Shoujo-esque- Strawberry Panic, Maria-sama Ga Miteru, Sasameki Koto, Aoi Hana…they’re mellow, sensitive and quiet and don’t seem to be aimed at a male audience (unless we’re talking ecchi and hentai). We got Kannazuki no Miko which had potential, but it really tried too hard to juggle everything and was a bit of a train-wreck. Now I know many guys adore a good gooey shoujo and girls do like their smut, but from a creative and directional stand point creating Yuri in particular is probably a difficult thing to do. Supposedly, girl x girl appeals to many men but with two girls as the main couple/characters how do you make the whole thing identifiable to a male audience? With Yaoi it’s easy…you have the seme x uke dynamics and just make the men extra emotional and effeminate. They kinda feel like girls anyway, so girls can easily identify with the characters. There are exceptions of course, but this is the category that most seem to fall into. With Bara, the guys are just your usual guys so other men get behind it a little more suddenly everything sounds wrong. The lines are less cut and dry with Yuri. Most creative mediums constantly (and unfortunately) try to sell sex and violence to men, because they are seen as less emotional and more aggressive than women. Therefore, I’d imagine Yuri is hard to create because of the confusion with how to go about creating it. It’s easier to just treat it as a fetish or phase with little to no repercussions- that way you can get your ecchi in, rake in those shippers and still have it place no real emotional importance in the story as a whole. There doesn’t have to be any real depth to the characters and their feelings, this is aimed at men and men don’t want that, obviously (sarcasm)! Cue the creation of series like Sakura Trick! I think they’ll be the only yuri series we get, but I hope I’m wrong -_- I guess the problem then is... the majority of my gender is all a bunch of retarded apes ;_; Lol idk. I've thought about the relatability issue before, but I just prefer girlxgirl over anything else. As a guy I feel weird saying this, but it's like Yuri seems more sensitive, passionate and romantic, with less of the uncouth male presence around. I've heard arguments that yaoi has some of that but I could care less because I just don't like it xD So that leaves straight relationships which can be awesome (a la Clannad, ef series, Toradora, etc.) but it's a different texture. It's not as fluffy. Ah, well, maybe I should just put this money I've been saving up for a car into making a Yuri anime... Bunch of retarded apes? Who's the uncouth one now? Anyways, that aside, you're still looking at girlxgirl romances objectively. You think you're better because you want to see to girls holding hands over them kissing or something. They're relationship is still being objectified by you. You're still the 3rd party male smiling and looking over them. You're not much better. Glorifying Sakura Trick just because girls kiss in that anime when the romance is so weak. The irony. I will say this clearly. I don't like yuri sexually, or romantically so I can't relate to your struggle. It's just how I am. Not a decision I made, since I can watch anime with lesbians in it and be fine. Cross Ange for instance. Anyways, I guess the anime industry's prepared for you. They've gone a while with no yuri so next season actually has quite a few potential yuri anime. Check it out for yourself. http://anichart.net/fall |
lady_freyja said: TitanAnteus said: Anyways, I guess the anime industry's prepared for you. They've gone a while with no yuri so next season actually has quite a few potential yuri anime. Check it out for yourself. http://anichart.net/fall Wow. A new original anime in the Nanoha franchise/universe. I hope it will be better than the last installment and will have great yuri "subtexts". But it's still moe blobs, why that horrendous change of aestheticism between the 3rd and 4th season? Thank, I would have probably missed it otherwise. Is that really the only show that caught your attention XD. You've got -Brave Witches -Flip Flappers -Girlish Number -Keijo -Idol Memories -Long Riders -Mahou Shoujo Ikusei Keikaku -Shakunetsu No Takyuu Musume -Show By Rock -Shuumatsu No Izetta -Soushin Shoujou Matoi -Stella no Mahou -Vivid Strike I don't know... I feel like this is the exact wrong time to complain about the lack of girl on girl romance, even though most of those shows are probably going to end up being bait. Anyways, if you want your actual yuri anime, prove that it can be successful by supporting the bait shows, otherwise; you aren't really making any progress with what you want. It's an abysmall season for me, but amongst those shows I listed, Flip Flappers and Shuumatsu No Izetta at least look decent enough to watch. |
lady_freyja said: TitanAnteus said: Is that really the only show that caught your attention XD. It's Vivid Strike that I was speaking of. It's a franchise that I enjoy quite a lot (even if the last installment was pretty bad…). And although I enjoy the yuri subtexts in it, I don't watch it for that. As for the rest, I don't see anything that looks like a proper yuri franchise, even soft-yuri ones. Though I don't know every yuri franchise out there, so I may have missed one/some in that list… TitanAnteus said: Anyways, if you want your actual yuri anime But I never expressed that idea. Other than a potential new Ikuhara's work, I don't really care about what will happens in the anime world, I'm fine with my manga. My interventions in that topic were about explaining stuffs regarding the yuri genre. Not complaining about the lack of yuri. My bad. I made an assumption. Anyways, I think you're one of the first person I've seen that actually likes the Nanoha franchise for reasons outside of its yuri subtext. Good on you, but that's pretty strange. That series is generally pretty bad imho. Well no. Nothing looks like a proper yuri franchise, but I didn't say they were. I said they were definitely catering towards girls love fans this season. Especially since a lot of those shows are all-girls so yuri goggles won't break if you wear them, and if they're not all girls, the two leads are girls so yuri goggles still probably wont break. |
TitanAnteus said: Bunch of retarded apes? Who's the uncouth one now? Anyways, that aside, you're still looking at girlxgirl romances objectively. You think you're better because you want to see to girls holding hands over them kissing or something. They're relationship is still being objectified by you. You're still the 3rd party male smiling and looking over them. You're not much better. Glorifying Sakura Trick just because girls kiss in that anime when the romance is so weak. The irony. I will say this clearly. I don't like yuri sexually, or romantically so I can't relate to your struggle. It's just how I am. Not a decision I made, since I can watch anime with lesbians in it and be fine. Cross Ange for instance. Anyways, I guess the anime industry's prepared for you. They've gone a while with no yuri so next season actually has quite a few potential yuri anime. Check it out for yourself. http://anichart.net/fall Sorry, I forgot jokes are lost on MAL users... I don't think I'm better or worse than anyone :P I was stating the perception of mass media. As far as they are concerned, males are viewed as primarily wanting sex and violence and so it's difficult for studios to be able to justify making a "proper" yuri show as a result because $$$. I don't glorify Sakura Trick, not once have I said that, just that it's my guilty pleasure xD It's exactly the kind of show I stated in my original post that I don't really want out of yuri. It's one of the few shows we have though, so yes, I will jump on anything available that I can get! Glad to see we have some more potential yuri coming in next year as well, hopefully something with more substance and less subtext. Based on the titles though... it doesn't seem entirely likely >_> |
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drgy55 said: TitanAnteus said: Bunch of retarded apes? Who's the uncouth one now? Anyways, that aside, you're still looking at girlxgirl romances objectively. You think you're better because you want to see to girls holding hands over them kissing or something. They're relationship is still being objectified by you. You're still the 3rd party male smiling and looking over them. You're not much better. Glorifying Sakura Trick just because girls kiss in that anime when the romance is so weak. The irony. I will say this clearly. I don't like yuri sexually, or romantically so I can't relate to your struggle. It's just how I am. Not a decision I made, since I can watch anime with lesbians in it and be fine. Cross Ange for instance. Anyways, I guess the anime industry's prepared for you. They've gone a while with no yuri so next season actually has quite a few potential yuri anime. Check it out for yourself. http://anichart.net/fall Sorry, I forgot jokes are lost on MAL users... I don't think I'm better or worse than anyone :P I was stating the perception of mass media. As far as they are concerned, males are viewed as primarily wanting sex and violence and so it's difficult for studios to be able to justify making a "proper" yuri show as a result because $$$. I don't glorify Sakura Trick, not once have I said that, just that it's my guilty pleasure xD It's exactly the kind of show I stated in my original post that I don't really want out of yuri. It's one of the few shows we have though, so yes, I will jump on anything available that I can get! Glad to see we have some more potential yuri coming in next year as well, hopefully something with more substance and less subtext. Based on the titles though... it doesn't seem entirely likely >_> Jokes aren't lost at MAL users. As part of a longer series of posts where you basically built up to you saying you were different from "other" males, you meant what you said. You can't back out of it and call it a joke later when you realize you said something dumb. Also, your mass media perception thing is absolutely false, especially when talking about anime. Shows like Spice and Wolf and Death Parade get popular for a reason. Whether you want to believe it or not, proper "yuri" shows aren't being made because action and ecchi are taking up those slots or whatever. Yuri's just not popular. In the end, if you're a guy it's a fetish and you can't get around that. Yes, even if there's nothing sexual about it, it's a fetish. It's something you enjoy that you can't logically explain the appeal of to other people where they'll understand. People have a fetish for feet, and unless you have the same fetish nothing that foot person will say will convince you that feet are amazing. You're in the same ground. And it's not popular. It has it's own niche, in the media niche that anime as a whole is, in the niche that romance as a whole is in anime. BTW, I could've sworn earlier in the thread when Sakura Trick came up you said, you wanted more like that, as if saying that it fit the criteria you were setting. |
TitanAnteus said: Jokes aren't lost at MAL users. As part of a longer series of posts where you basically built up to you saying you were different from "other" males, you meant what you said. You can't back out of it and call it a joke later when you realize you said something dumb. Also, your mass media perception thing is absolutely false, especially when talking about anime. Shows like Spice and Wolf and Death Parade get popular for a reason. Whether you want to believe it or not, proper "yuri" shows aren't being made because action and ecchi are taking up those slots or whatever. Yuri's just not popular. In the end, if you're a guy it's a fetish and you can't get around that. Yes, even if there's nothing sexual about it, it's a fetish. It's something you enjoy that you can't logically explain the appeal of to other people where they'll understand. People have a fetish for feet, and unless you have the same fetish nothing that foot person will say will convince you that feet are amazing. You're in the same ground. And it's not popular. It has it's own niche, in the media niche that anime as a whole is, in the niche that romance as a whole is in anime. BTW, I could've sworn earlier in the thread when Sakura Trick came up you said, you wanted more like that, as if saying that it fit the criteria you were setting. Well yah it's a fetish, I never denied that... I think you're making a lot of strange assumptions about me man xD I remember saying this: drgy55 said: No offense, but it is stereotypical. There are many males who are interested in actual yuri romance rather than just fan-service laden pandering :P I got your point, but I do not agree that a proper yuri show wouldn't do well because anime is targeted at males. And I remember saying this: drgy55 said: Sakura Trick kinda falls into that "gurlz everywhere" thing though lol it doesn't feel right when there aren't even guys around. Sakura Trick is definitely a guilty pleasure of mine though :P No idea where these other things are coming from o_o |
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GaoGaoTama said: drgy55 said: Excellent, then I will try them both on your recommendation :D I will ship them if they are cute... the only pairing I'm very concerned with right now is Kumiko and Reina because if Kumiko ends up with Shuuichi you're going to see a headline on CNN titled "Violent Fan Breaks and Enters KyoAni Studios!" Tbh, going into Hibike S2, I wouldn't have my hope up that KyoAni is going for the yuri route if I were you. It's not what the original novel intended & I don't think they are brave enough to go against it. At most, hope for an open ending where no one ends up with anyone. But I'd still say that we shouldn't think about the shipping matter in that series too much. That way, it'll be less painful for the hearts... I hear you, I've been trying my best but then I got caught for about an hour in this loop of reading about Kumiko and Reina's development up to this point and it just seems strange to have them get together with anyone other than each other... at the very least I agree they just shouldn't be with anyone at the end though, if no Yuri. I wouldn't be surprised one bit though if KyoAni had Reina and the teacher get together. Get this... in the very last episode, for the first half we'll have Kumiko and Reina share a final farewell. Reina will kiss her on the cheek before revealing she's going abroad to pursue music elsewhere. It's then revealed that she's traveling with Sensei and they're going to get married overseas. FFFUUUUUU#@ |
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drgy55 said: I hear you, I've been trying my best but then I got caught for about an hour in this loop of reading about Kumiko and Reina's development up to this point and it just seems strange to have them get together with anyone other than each other... at the very least I agree they just shouldn't be with anyone at the end though, if no Yuri. I wouldn't be surprised one bit though if KyoAni had Reina and the teacher get together. Get this... in the very last episode, for the first half we'll have Kumiko and Reina share a final farewell. Reina will kiss her on the cheek before revealing she's going abroad to pursue music elsewhere. It's then revealed that she's traveling with Sensei and they're going to get married overseas. FFFUUUUUU#@ You don't have to worry about Taki-sensei & Reina ending up together. But if they do end up together in the anime somehow... eh... I'll join you in storming KyoAni lol |
GaoGaoTama said: drgy55 said: I hear you, I've been trying my best but then I got caught for about an hour in this loop of reading about Kumiko and Reina's development up to this point and it just seems strange to have them get together with anyone other than each other... at the very least I agree they just shouldn't be with anyone at the end though, if no Yuri. I wouldn't be surprised one bit though if KyoAni had Reina and the teacher get together. Get this... in the very last episode, for the first half we'll have Kumiko and Reina share a final farewell. Reina will kiss her on the cheek before revealing she's going abroad to pursue music elsewhere. It's then revealed that she's traveling with Sensei and they're going to get married overseas. FFFUUUUUU#@ You don't have to worry about Taki-sensei & Reina ending up together. But if they do end up together in the anime somehow... eh... I'll join you in storming KyoAni lol Well, I've heard all about the major plot points of the LN, though what gives me hope is that based on a lot of differences between how the LN and anime handles Kumiko and Reina's relationship, it still seems like KyoAni is very purposefully making KumiRei seem like a possibility. There's more emphasis on Yuri moments. Again just based on what I've heard of events in the LN, I would be willing to concede that Shuuichi and Kumiko could reasonably be together in that medium. But in the anime? No way, there's no good chemistry there at all... |
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| I wish they could make a proper Yuri Anime. T.T |
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drgy55 said: Well, I've heard all about the major plot points of the LN, though what gives me hope is that based on a lot of differences between how the LN and anime handles Kumiko and Reina's relationship, it still seems like KyoAni is very purposefully making KumiRei seem like a possibility. There's more emphasis on Yuri moments. Again just based on what I've heard of events in the LN, I would be willing to concede that Shuuichi and Kumiko could reasonably be together in that medium. But in the anime? No way, there's no good chemistry there at all... I hear ya. Well, S2 is next season, let's just hope for the best. If it happens to disappoint, just binge a bunch of yuri manga, they're a cure for everything. |
| No, because that would be a good anime. We can't have that. |
| The more yuri the better so hopefully. |
IchigoRadiance said: Yaoi and Yuri are not synonymous with their Shou* ai counterparts, not even in Japan. Shounen ai originally connotated ephebephilia or pederasty but shifted towards being about beautiful boys in love. Shoujo ai tends to denote works with pedophilia (actual or perceived) between the two girls similar to a lolita complex. I'm kind of surprised that you actually know the origins of the shōnen'ai (and by extension shōjo-ai) word, but don't know that it was just used during the 70s and during the early 80s before falling out of usage for the word "JUNE", which was later (during the 90s) replaced by "Yaoi" and "Boy's Love". And that the word "shōjo-ai" was never used in the manga market. The "shōjo-ai" word is very rare in Japan and was coined by American fans just for having a mirror to the word "shōnen'ai". Obviously, those American fans changed the meaning of the word "shōnen'ai"; that word never referred to "works less erotic than yaoi" like you said. If only because the word "yaoi" was coined after the demise of the word "shōnen'ai" for manga. You just have to take a quick look at Kaze to Ki no Uta, a proper "shōnen'ai". Well, that work is hyper-erotic and faced a lot of censorships at the time of its publication. Superficially, the word "shōnen'ai" refers simply to the first "boys x boys" romances, platonic and sexualized likewise. Though some manga specialists consider that shōnen'ai works are different from the more modern yaoi works. The specialist Yukari Fujimoto for example tells that about shōnen'ai works: the creation of such works have frequently been explained in terms of resistance to gender suppression, the desire for equality in relationships, and/or the search for the ultimate couple. These earnest motives were also deeply, though imperfectly, related to the “girls dressed as boys” motif. By "“girls dressed as boys” motif." she refers to works such as Rose of Versailles, works inspired by Takarazuka theater. You can especially note the "equality in relationships" part, because like another specialist, James Welker said, those shōnen'ai works don't follow the Seme/Uke trope, but the Black/White trope: the types of beautiful boy can be broadly cast in black and white, with black being the more masculine black-haired boy who is grounded in reality and white the “decorative” and more visibly feminine boy who is “separated from reality”—and whose almost invariably blonde hair appears literally white on the page. Here the core of that dynamic isn't the sexual position (like in Seme/Uke) but a difference of philosophy, way of life. That black/white dynamic can also be found in earlier "modern yuri" such as Shiroi Heya no Futari but also in works such as Rose of Versailles. Arguably, those kinds of works are all related and can be regrouped in the same category, the same "genre". Since they all provide that "gender equality in relationships", all follow that black-white dynamic, and all share the same aestheticism, setting and atmosphere. To goes back to our shōnen'ai works, from what I know that kind of work is not published anymore, or if it still exists it should be really marginal (and I would be really happy that someone points out some modern examples, because I love those old shōnen'ai). As for "shōjo-ai" like I said Japaneses never used that word for referring to manga works, so it doesn't even exist as a "genre"; there is no canon, no trope and trait related to it. IchigoRadiance said: You mentioned "Yuri Hime" which is aimed at women and has a 70% female readership. "The same publisher also publishes "Yuri Hime S" which is aimed at men having more moe elements. That's the publication that Yuru Yuri is published in and that's the series everyone is saying is not a legitimate Yuri series. First: Yuri Hime S doesn't exist anymore, it was merged into Yuri Hime in January 2011. Now Yuri Hime is targeted at both male and female readerships. As for Yuru Yuri, the explanation is pretty simple: That manga is part of the yuri sub-genre called "soft-yuri", like the name imply it, it is rather "soft", "low" in its yuri content. The yuri genre focus on "intimate relationships between women", thus is the type of work that focus on emotional content and romance. A "soft-yuri" is indeed "soft/low" in that content. The focus drifted from the emotion/romance to the comedy/fan-service/moe. And by "drifting into comedy", it's not comparable to rom-com works, which keep a strong romance part. That's why some people consider that soft-yuri works aren't "legitimate" yuri, because they drifted apart from the canon of the genre, ie the romance. Basically, soft-yuri works are like yuri hentai works: a periphery sub-genre. If you search enough, you'll find the exact same discourse for yuri hentai, both in Japanese and English-speaking communities, "lesbian porn isn't yuri" because there is no romance in it. IchigoRadiance said: [3] While that is largely true, it's a symptom of the problem. Bara is a niche, but it was intended to separate itself from the Yaoi genre. Yaoi features heteronormotive relationships between men, and gay men aren't really into that. A lot of Yaoi can get quite rapey actually, again, gay men aren't really into that. While a gay man can look feminine and other gay men may like feminine gay men, Bara focuses on more realistic portrayals of homosexual relationships with more realistic portrayals of gay men. Look, another urban legend. The "Bara" genre is certainly not a "more realistic portrayals of gay men", it is usually even worst and less realistic than yaoi. The Bara genre, for its majority is porn, with men with unrealistic bodies and features a lot of rape. In fact the "homo magazines" focus on either on a sexual phantasm, a stereotype of man or a thematic. I don't read "bara" works because I don't have interest into porn, but to understand the kind of content available in "bara" works, you can for example search "Tagame Gengoroh in google image, he's arguably the most famous/popular "bara" mangaka. Here a little selection of manga pages, warning, it's particularly sexual, crude and violent: To continue, I can quote Mark McLelland, a specialist of homosexuality in asian societies: Bamboo comics which publishes comic serials from the now defunct gay magazine Adon contains many manga drawn in the style of girls’ comics (the boys are bishōnen), although the content is more sexual. For example, Murano Inuhiko’s (1996) Gakuran tengoku (Tumultous heaven) volume 1, opens to a scene in a locker room where a sempai (senior) inserts a popsicle into a younger boy’s anus. This is followed by pretty relentless hard sex including an SM interlude where a young boy is kept in a locker and brought out for regular sex sessions with his sempai. The manga describes itself on the cover as ‘a popular series dedicated to showing the real-life sweat and tears of a high-school boys’ sports club’ and clearly develops the theme of the erotic/violent potential in the sempai/kōhai (senior/junior) relationship. I can't help but to laugh when it says "real-life […] of a high-school boys’ sports club". Yeah, rape is totally a common feature in boys' sport club. >.> You can also note that the homo magazine Adon features "bishōnen" like "girls’ comics", and you can easily guess that the work mentioned follow the Uke/Seme trope. Because like I said, each homo magazines focus on a different type of content, and some gay men are totally into yaoi stuffs, with bishōnen and all, thus some homo magazines publish that kind of manga too. As for the "heteronormative" view of the yaoi, I'll continue into that (and it will be my last point): "In fact, our goal [in creating yuri manga] is to denounce a society in which men always take the (sexual) initiative over women.We also wish to show our dissatisfaction toward men who don't understand women's natural sexual desires." This is contradictory. Her dissatisfaction with a society in which men always take the sexual initiative over women is exactly the problem gay men have with Yaoi manga. Why is it expected for men to always be a seme or a uke, but okay for women to be neither? First, I don't say that Zaō/Eiki are right, I just quoted them to explain why they push sexual content into yuri. Second, like said by Yukari Fujimoto above, the shōnen'ai works are related to the "girl dressed as a boy" motif. To be more precise the bishōnen of those works are "girls in male body" and thus are kind of gender bending lesbian works. It's just a step above to works such as Rose of Versailles or Oniisama e, where the girls aren't simply dressed as boys and act like them, but also has a boy's body. It is a totally queer approach, the exact opposite of "heteronormativity". Later yaoi works features in a lesser extent those "girls with a boy's body" too (since there is a continuity, an evolution), with some mangaka and fans still defending that point of view. Another manga specialist, Yōko Nagakubo is saying that the goal of those yaoi works is, to quote her: the “amusementization of gender” (jendaa no gorakuka). Taking a male body and putting on it masculine and feminine markers. That need of "amusementization of gender" is related to the vision that a lot of girls and women have of their body and their sexuality, they use a male body as a safe proxy for experimenting with genders freely from the "patriarchal oppression". The otokonoko stereotype that you mentioned in your first message comes from here, because it appeared in female-oriented yaoi before appearing male-oriented yaoi. A total feminisation of a male body. Obviously, not all yaoi works are like that (like I said, it is "in a lower extent"), but a good amount of them still. The "yaoi ronsō", the debate where some gay men violently attacked yaoi works was edifying; the gay men where speaking of their oppressions as gay, while the women where speaking of their oppressions as female. They weren't speaking about the same thing, yet they were both speaking about the effects of patriarchy in the end. That's where reside the true dichotomy between yaoi works and "bara" ones. The first ones have a queer coloration while the second ones have a "gay" coloration. But the boundaries between the two are not that clear, why I speak of "coloration". Because some yaoi are more "gay colored" than "queer colored", and there is some mangaka doing both types of works anyway. |
removed-userSep 20, 2016 2:30 AM
| Actually, even though it's just lowkey Hibike! Euphonium has some yuri undertones, wich get pretty obvious in the end though. Kumiko and Reina are liturally a canon ship, i swear to kamisama |
| "This signature is under construction." ~Fabuubz |
Fabuubz said: Actually, even though it's just lowkey Hibike! Euphonium has some yuri undertones, wich get pretty obvious in the end though. Kumiko and Reina are liturally a canon ship, i swear to kamisama You and me both friend. If it doesn't happen, like I said, you all won't be seeing much of KyoAni for a while because they'll be in my private torture chamber :D |
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drgy55 said: Fabuubz said: Actually, even though it's just lowkey Hibike! Euphonium has some yuri undertones, wich get pretty obvious in the end though. Kumiko and Reina are liturally a canon ship, i swear to kamisama You and me both friend. If it doesn't happen, like I said, you all won't be seeing much of KyoAni for a while because they'll be in my private torture chamber :D Well, bless you then Thier movie Koe no Katachi came out last week and they're planning on a new season of Hibike too (let's hope for the yuri to happen though, lmfao) |
| "This signature is under construction." ~Fabuubz |
| candy boy its not about a candy ass boy or candy |
xEzioAuditore said: Put Kuzu no Honkai on your ptw (will be out on 1/2017). It has some lesbian scenes. And what about Senjogahara x Kanbaro? :D Oh nooo I can't Senjougahara x Kanbaru because Senjougahara x Araragi is already so perfect! They need each other tbh lol. I ship Kanbaru x Rouka Numachi if you've watched that far :D But unfortunately that's impossible 'cause... |
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| If they ever make an adaptation of Girl Friends... |
-Trippwire- said: If they ever make an adaptation of Girl Friends... O BOI I would pay for a blu -ray to watch that ^ I've always wanted to explore the Yuri genre, but because the lack of anime there is, it sort of paused my curiosity. Sure, moe yuri exists and as well as 'borderline hentai' yuri too exists. But that's not how you'd describe what a romantic relationship right? There are brilliant manga series that depicts the serious relationship between to women in such manner that it's Josei-like. I want that. |
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I don't know why I can't finish the show. I'm at ep 4 of nisemonogatari. I can't finish this show >_<"[/quote] You only need to watch bake and the 2nd season but yeah I watched everything anyway. Nise is plain kink, but it's the girls who want this. More than what you could say for every other anime I guess. |
drgy55 said: Is there any hope for legitimate Yuri anime? By legitimate I mean an anime with an actual girl/girl relationship that is treated seriously and not as either "a phase" or as fan service. I'd like to see more of these as well. As far as I know, Aoi Hana and Sasameki Koto are the only anime that treat lesbian relationships legitimately and without fanservice. JustALEX said: Yuri without fanservice is weak. If I wanted to watch romance (AND I DON'T)....why the fuck would I watch gay romance?! How can I, as a straight male relate to a lesbian couple if I'm not there to jerk off to their sexual exploits? Seriously....no joke....someone explain to me how that would work? What would I get out of it? Anime isn't made just for you. |
| The only one i can think of as "legitimate" is Sakura trick....and that was the last time i saw a legitimate yuri anime ,,,,back in 2014 so they might have one for future but the answer is....just when?? |
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xEzioAuditore said: drgy55 said: Oh nooo I can't Senjougahara x Kanbaru because Senjougahara x Araragi is already so perfect! They need each other tbh lol. I ship Kanbaru x Rouka Numachi if you've watched that far :D But unfortunately that's impossible 'cause... I don't know why I can't finish the show. I'm at ep 4 of nisemonogatari. I can't finish this show >_<" Lol well like that guy who's name I refuse to spell said, Bake and Second Season are the meat of the story, although it starts getting really interesting with Tsuki and Hana as well. I can't wait for the future arcs. Anyway, Nise does have some important plot points, but nothing that would make watching Second Season super difficult. I would just start watching Second Season if you want to get into the series, it's truly great :) |
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