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| It had been yeeaaars since i first saw Evangelion to the end, now i watched it again on Netflix and super enjoyed it, i binged plenty of episodes unlike many other anime or series i watch lately. Now i can only imagine how hard it could've been for people to get this ending and only this, nowadays i can apreciate it for what it is and know EoE is out there on Netflix as well even to get that final battle so now i can say it was an ok ending to a fantastic anime series. |
| So, I finally finished it... and wtf, ok... I will take my time to thing about it. I was suppose to see this maybe 10 years ago, but it still hit me hard, I guess I will have to move on... Anybody, why I feel like I saw that "happy" part already somewhere? |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| I've completed my 3rd rewatch of the series and I'm raising the score I had.. The ending...it's perfect, yes some of the visual side of it is costcutting due to the difficulties with the production. But on the conceptual level, it works perfectly. This show is not so much about Angels and christian simbology, but about a teenage boys fears and frustrations and how he deals with them. I'm baffled when I see some people criticize the shows ending for being psychobabble, and then seeing the same poster rave about another (more current) show where the characters are also just talking non-stop. What's the deal here? |
| "Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov |
| Oh man. Gainax wow XD Seriously, now I understand why Panty & Stockings had a "weird" ending as well. This is basically a troll episode to the audience. Everyone at that time was probably expecting what happens next after killing the last angel (Kaworu). Instead we are greeted by this "Human Instrumentality Experiment" Episodes where we try to break free out of Shinji's mind. We want to stop Shinji from hating himself, because at the end of the day, he couldn't hate himself forever or else he will never be "free". The whole RomCom episode is basically another "possibility". Sure it may look like it's attacking the audience with the whole "WTF". I think it's nice to see these kind of "possibility" among others. Ikari never changed, yet Rei is soo lively!!! I kinda wish she was more like this in the TV series. And yeah, they did ran out of budget if you read the interviews. I now see why there were people were sending death threats in the Gainax office. Not that I approve of it(no creator should ever get a death threat; you either like it or not, end of story). But I still understand the resentment. Just imagine if you were part of the audience was back in 1995-1996 in Japan. No Internet and basically there was a possibility that will never know what happens after Kaworu's death. Not gonna lie, I was falling asleep at the beginning (due to 2:20AM right now) as well as laughing during the romcom section. Oh well, there's still End of Evangelion and Rebuild Movies. So we'll truly see what happens (hopefully). Congratulations!!! Everyone got played XD I still give this a 9/10 just for a strong start to finish. Besides the ending, everything else was masterful! |
| I mean being verbally abused by these seiyuu are blessing I want them to say "I hate you" to me xD They really out of budget huh, but because of this.. this anime become "legend" Guess that coincidence really plays out pretty well The ending didn't solve anything Shinji didn't grow up from the very first episode, not much different Welp congratulations!  |
Rayl1ghtOct 6, 2019 11:46 PM
"Signature removed"   |
| And that's that! Honestly, when I first watched this years ago, the last two episodes played out like a group therapy session to me. Maybe I should try syncing episodes 25 and 26 whilst watching the End of Eva to see how things play out side by side. A lot of themes were brought up. Self-reflection, how others perceive you, freedom, self-esteem, reality... Shinji discovers that his self-loathing and low self-esteem are things that only he himself created (okay, he did have a douchebag of a dad which would be a soft spot for anyone), and he needs to understand and love himself. And in the end Shinji is like, "Hey, everyone! I've finally learned to accept who I am. Maybe my life does have value. I won't let the world tell me to be insecure any more!" Hell yeah! That's a message a fella can get behind! |
| Man, last 2 episodes are a torture to watch. |
| I kinda love how this anime makes me feel uneasy. The last two episodes confused me much, I still like it and the way they ended it with everyone congratulating Shinji makes me feel uneasy. The first 24 was great, the last two was confusing, it's not bad it's just I don't think it is nice to put it somewhere there, because it doesn't feel like the ending at all. It's like the whole thing was ruined by Shinji just thinking of himself for a long period of time, anyways my only problem is that the Evangelion thingy feels like it has been removed because of this ending, simply because this is about Shinji's mind not Evangelion or Angels. |
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| Well, um, that ending was something, wasn't it? I have many problems with Neon Genesis, but I won't write an essay this time like I did with Cowboy Bebop because I don't want to have to deal with some asshole coming and yelling at me again. I'm welly sensitive. Let's go with a TLDR instead. Art and sound design were quite good, especially for the time. I was going in with high expectations and it failed to meet them, but it still did pretty well. The story was incoherent nonsense. The last two episodes were the equivalent of 24 episodes of build up and then Fat Bastard from Austin Powers waltzing over and taking a fat shit on all of that sweet sexy worldbuilding, and it's really disappointing. I know everyone says "You Need To WAtcH ThE END Of eVanGeLiOn" (and I am, I'm watching it tomorrow) but I shouldn't need to watch a movie just because your original writing is shit. A sequel can ADD clarity but it shouldn't be the only source of clarity. All of the characters were unlikable assholes. Kaji got killed off (I think) way too soon, and he was the only other character I vibed with (even though he borderline sexually assaulted Misato like three times). Every other character besides Shinji is just an asshole, and Shinji is just a pitiful loser. I get the whole psychological aspect of the show, but I don't want to see 26 episodes of that nonsense. That's why I didn't like YLIA. In conclusion, okay show. Didn't live up to the hype. 6/10. |
| @Rei_III I gotchu. I just took an L on a final so it is the perfect opportunity to drown away my anxieties talking about anime. A brief note before I begin: I didn't get around to watching the End of Evangelion. I'll watch it very soon, but this response comes without that additional knowledge. You've opened the flood gates, so expect something LOOOONG. Hopefully this isn't too much of a ramble and more of a response. I stand by everything I said in that original post, albeit if I rewrote it I'd write it much less negatively. I wrote that immediately after watching the last episode, which was very poor in my opinion, so I wrote that pseudo-review with a very bad taste in my mouth. The only thing I guess I would change is where I call the story "incoherent nonsense." 75% of the show had a decent story. Not earth-shattering by any stretch of the imagination, but the first 20 episodes had good world-building and character development. The 18th and 19th episodes in particular I remember being very, very good. In fact, for those two episodes in particular, I broke my habit of only commenting on the last episode of a show to express my approval (18, 19). Episode 20 was pretty good too. From there on, however, the quality of the story takes a sharp nosedive, and the story (as the original post suggested) was my biggest problem with the show. Because of that, I will mostly be talking about the story here on out. This next paragraph may sound like a huge tangent, but it has a purpose, I promise. A big problem I have with sci-fi shows is something I call "term-dropping." It's something I am certain I do not exclusively observe, but remains to be prevalent in almost every sci-fi show I watch. Term-dropping is when, for the purpose of "realism" or some other garbage, the writers decide to just say words that sound scientific that have no meaning to the viewer/reader. It happens a lot in mecha shows, particularly in a control room, where scientists just start shouting incoherent sentences like "He is breaking the neutron barrier and passing through the boundary of the stereoscopic continuum" or something dumb like that. Admittedly, NGE is better with this than most sci-fi shows I have seen (the worst being the Code Geass Akito movies). I can't think of any examples from NGE off the top of my head (which actually shows how meaningless these words are) but I can provide an example of what ISN'T term-dropping from NGE: Synchronization rates. That term in-and-of-itself already is self-explanatory, but the show goes above and beyond by giving itself enough time to explain WHAT synchronization rates are and WHY we should care. That way, when Asuka, for example, goes down to a 0% synchronization rate, not only do we know WHAT is going on but we have a reason to go "Wow. She used to be in first place, she's fallen really far both performance-wise and psychologically." The main purpose of that last paragraph was for me to convey that NGE was doing some things right. But after episode 20, this stopped happening. One after another, things began happening without explanation. Episode 21 was alright, and had a good level of suspense, especially with Kaji at the end. Episode 22 is where things really start to go downhill. We start off with some more okay development with Asuka, but then Rei is ordered to go to Terminal Dogma (something not explained) to retrieve the Spear of Longinus (also something not explained). The remainder of the episode is mediocre at best. Episode 23. Asuka is depressed (welcome to the party). Rei gets attacked by a tentacle monster and self destructs, obviously dying in the process, yet comes back at the end of the episode. Good, compared to what is to come, as I was left curious as to what happened to Kaji (lol) and what was going on with Rei. Episode 24. Nagisa, who was a very interesting character, proves to be a ginormous waste of potential, as he comes and goes within the span of a single episode. He mentions something called Adam (something not explained) and Lilith (also something not explained). He is also trying to infiltrate Terminal Dogma (still hasn't been explained), where Adam is (see last sentence). Shinji, in a sign of legitimately good character development, kills Nagisa (I liked this). Episode 25; the beginning of the end. The Human Instrumentality Project (something not explained) begins. The entire episode contains little to no substance, solely revolving around Misato, Asuka, and Shinji attempting to find their reason for existence. Episode 26; the worst episode of the entire show. The episode literally begins with the words "However, there is far too little time left to make mention of it all", something I should never see in ANY show, much less a sci-fi. The Human Instrumentality Project (still hasn't been explained) continues, revolving around Shinji. We get a funny school subplot, which I enjoyed, and then we get jolted back to Shinji, who comes to some epiphany and is surrounded by clapping people and a teleporting Pen Pen. The clapping scene made me laugh, at least, because I recognized it from Gintama. This last episode also had some interesting shots and scenes with crayon, markers, and pencil (from budget constraints, I heard), but even those couldn't save this dumpster fire of an episode. To recap, from the last six episode alone, and only from stuff I can remember off the top of my head with a quick synopsis from the wiki, the following stuff goes unexplained.
I need to wrap this up because I need to study physics and calculus shortly (I also spent much longer on this than I intended, about half an hour). To conclude, my problems with NGE come from the poor story and the bad taste said story left in my mouth. As objective as I try to be with my scores, how much I enjoy something heavily impacts what score I give something, and the combination of a slow first cour and a bad last six episodes leaves much to be desired. |
| Yikes. I’m definitely going to watch the sequel and alternative ending but this was god awful. I was so bored and uninterested. I felt like this deviated way too from the angels and who they’ve been fighting this entire time. |
| ...wtf did I just watch? That must have been the single most exhausting finale to a show I've ever seen. Two episodes of straight psychoanalysis... the climax of this show somehow was made up of flashbacks and on-screen text. Such a strange choice. And it was mostly all for Shinji and the others to relearn a lesson that was already hammered into them, and the viewer, by episode 20. That is the thing about the existential will to power, I suppose; you do have to keep reminding yourself of it, keep relearning it as life goes on. But much like the previous deep-dives into Shinji's psyche, this was mostly just a lot of talking in circles... or more accurately, screaming in circles. Wish the finale was more grounded in reality, wish we got more details about Seele or Lilith or... anything really. Instead they crammed 15 years worth of background info into a single episode (21) and rushed the Kaworu plot instead of letting big developments like those grow more organically, all so that they'd have time to wax poetic about elementary existentialism and recycle flashback footage. Not to say it didn't resonate with me at all, you'd have to be pretty dead inside to not feel at least a bit affected by this extended montage of converging identity crises, and it seems to me that those who love the ending love it because of how affected they were by it. But despite this, I'm pretty down on the way this show ended. Are they all dead? Alive? Does it matter? I've heard End of Evangelion wraps things up better, I hope that's true... |
LordQuazJan 18, 2020 8:43 PM
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Gytanzo said: After episode 20, one after another, things began happening without explanation. Episode 21 was alright, and had a good level of suspense, especially with Kaji at the end. [*]What happens to Kaji. Well, he was executed as everyone can see it in the episode. It's as plain as that. What else would you expect with a "triple" agent going rogue ? I really don't know what else to say, there is nothing useful to add to what the episode and earlier events/dialogues say (and what transpires from them). Episode 22 is where things really start to go downhill. We start off with some more okay development with Asuka, but then Rei is ordered to go to Terminal Dogma (something not explained) to retrieve the Spear of Longinus (also something not explained). The remainder of the episode is mediocre at best. [*]What the various Dogmas are, such as Central Dogma and Terminal Dogma. [*]What the Spear of Longinus is. The film DVD was only released 6months after I had watched the TV series (twice, plus once right before watching the films). So, with only the TV episodes, I knew that: - the Dogma were various parts / levels of the NERV building. Central Dogma was the most prominent in the series, containing the command room, the EVA cages and more. It's even used on a map in the very beginning:  We even get to see / hear about its early stage during the NERV history episode. The Terminal Dogma is clearly refered to, at least twice in the series: it is simply the most underground level where "Adam" (actually Lillith) was sealed away. I never had to read/watch any external thing to know that, I simply received it from the series dialogues and accepted it. If your problem is the choice of words, it's obviously for the "coolness factor" just like all the biblical/esoterical vocabulary thrown in EVA, here possibly linked to either religion or bio-sciences. (I guess it can lost some peoples because of it) - the spear of Longinus is a biblical element known by many peoples (or at least the name "Longinus"). Longinus was the roman soldier that pierced the crucified Jesus Christ's right flank to check on his state. Here in the series, it's some artefact found along Adam during the Misato polar expedition, so both the Lance and Angels share their origin. It's never said they found it back then, I know. But you can imagine it when you see Fuyutsuki and Gendô on a boat (one of the boats carrying the concealed spear). You are also expected to infer some of its effects when Rei removes it from "Adam"/Lillith in the previously mentioned Terminal Dogma: as soon as it is removed, Lillith's body regenerates below "her" belly. So, it's no surprise when it instantly erases the angel a few minutes later after easily piercing its AT-F (so, you get three effects, one of them being exploited again by the End of EVA). Last thing: it is said then to be instrumental to the big Plan, Fuyutsuki fearing the reaction of Seele's old men. Gytanzo said: Episode 23. Asuka is depressed. Rei gets attacked by a tentacle and self-destructs, dying in the process, yet comes back at the end of the episode. [*]What Rei actually is (my best guess is a doll, but we get nothing concrete). Rei is: - a creation of Gendô: infered by "I'm her guardian" (Gendô, in the Ryôko Akagi story), quasi-explicitly stated by Ritsuko (the "Rei aquarium" scene) and "Mother... Ayanami... What have you done, Father?" (Shinji, the following episode I think). Add to that Gendô being Rei's entire world by the beginning of the series. - that can be replaced: said by her, shown by and said by Ritsuko, infered by you in the flashback episode since you see that Rei I (the child) was murdered. Plus the fact that the main Rei (present) is also replaced by one with an almost different behaviour (rejection of Gendô, even choosing Shinji over him in the film) in this very episode. - Ikari Yui's clone: from Shinji's line and the uncanny similarity of Rei and Yui (face, voice) stated to the viewer by Ryôko, you can get she's a clone. (if not, you understand at least that she's some DNA experiment when you see all the receptacles in the LCL tube) "a doll" ? Well, she is certainly devoted to Gendô if that's what you mean. But - apparented to Angels: "You and me, we are alike" (Rei to Kaworu aka the final Angel, ep.24), "Blue screen, another Angel / AT-F appeared in the Central Dogma ! Wait, it disappeared !" (Magi clerk, episode 24; sorry for the inexact quote, don't have my DVDs). Thanks to the film, I got that she was made not of whatever Angel material but of Lillith "her"self (making her able to go back to "her"). - a person: she is said to have a soul (unlike EVAs). She is shown to be able to change through the series (my last point) - evolving: "child Rei" (I) is "mean" (no restraint), "main Rei" (II) is pretty cold to peoples but warm and entirely dedicated to Gendô before starting to change. "Final Rei" (III) feels no attachment to him anymore. Episode 24. Nagisa proves to be a ginormous waste of potential as he comes and goes within the span of a single episode. He mentions something called Adam (something not explained) and Lilith (also something not explained). He is also trying to infiltrate Terminal Dogma (still hasn't been explained), where Adam is (see last sentence). Shinji, in a sign of legitimately good character development, kills Nagisa (I liked this). [*]What Adam is/means. [*]What Lilith is/means. [*]What Terminal Dogma is. * Giant waste of potential? True, he was supposed to come around the middle episodes so the character didn't get to achieve everything he could have. Untrue, he ended up filling perfectly the role he could fill in this single episode: being the only "human being" offering unconditional love to the hero) along opening us to the Angels and offering us a few more explanations/interrogations. The character makes for a great choice as the last seen "antagonist". * Adam is: - "the first man" if you trust the Bible. - In show, as repeated several times before, it is the real "cause" behind the event called "Second Impact" (first explained by a meteorit crash). - A life form found/unearthed during the Misato expedition (along the above mentioned Lance), thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is shown as a giant of light on a photography in the series (whose silhouette could rmeind us of an EVA). - It is also the embryo thing we see Kaji bringing to Gendô (that will later have it fused in his hand). (May I remind you that a relatively similar thing was found in a volcano in a certain episode, where they immediately tried to "catch" it while fearing that another Impact or accident could happen, sorry for the bad memory.) - we learn that apparently, Angels are attacking Tôkyô-3 only to reach the Geofront, more precisely the NERV HQ, even more precisely the Terminal Dogma. They want to reach Adam ! It would, theoretically, trigger a feared "Third Impact" (probably erasing what was left of the human race after the Second). - Later, we learn that the giant being (hidden under the NERV HQ) that was advertised as Adam is in truth Lillith (Kaworu, ep.24) ! *Lillith is: - in the Qabale the first wife of Adam, created from dust like him. (too bad it was a "failure" and thus replaced for Eve, borned out of Adam's rib) - as exposed by Kaworu, it is what is in the Terminal Dogma. Something "similar" to Adam, we can suppose. - the "mother" of all Lilin (Kaworu again, ep.24) - in case you would ask what a Lilin is: Kaworu uses it to refer to Shinji and others, meaning it's a name for the human race. Last thing: the first attacking angel (Sachiel?) is numbered as "the Third Angel", implying two angels that came before. We can imagine that Adam and Lilith are those Angels (although half of it is proven false in later materials, it doesn't prove to be a probelm to understnad the series). Plus, we are told angels and umans are extremely close , DNA-wise. *The last question is answered above. Episode 25; the beginning of the end. The Human Instrumentality Project (something not explained) begins. [*]The entire Human Instrumentality Project. - TRUE! Anno threw this term around at first without any idea of what it would entail. - FALSE: earlier, the main point of it audience-wise was to see that the SEELE and Gendô had a certain agenda that was not "humanity's defense against the invading aliens". Later, it was to realize that while both parties seemingly had the same hidden goal, Gendô had his OWN hidden agenda. - TRUE! The exact goal would only be cleared by the film itself, I agree, but the other points were from the series. - You aren't given the conditions, trigger and whatever other detail you might have asked for, except the need for Rei (stated by her and Gendô in this very episode), the EVA-01 (infered earlier by Fuyutsuki, if I remember well), and the Lance of Longinus (stated when it's "thrown away" by Gendô using an orbital Angel as excuse) in order to have the Plan take place. - FALSE: characters studied during the Instrumentality process ask the same question and or given an answer or give it themselves. "The Self's world will disappear." (Rei) Also, at the beginning of Ep25's second half: And after this scene, all the cases studied with the recurring "this is the me in you" sentence push it even stronger. Sorry for the poor script I could only find this one in the short time. But the english is understandable enough to see the answer clearly repeated throughout. I don't want to reduce you to some ignorant person (really sorry if it sounds like that) but I don't think the film does a better job to explain this point. Sure, you see from the outside that people disappear, physically reuniting into some orange soup. But this TV episode does an excellent job at showing you what actually takes place for the characters (I and probably lots of peoples didn't need to get the End of "juice sequence" to get what was repeated several times here in only a few minutes). The entire episode contains little to no substance, solely revolving around Misato, Asuka, and Shinji attempting to find their reason for existence. Well, by that time, I thought that this was "the" series substance under the whole "GAINAX folks, let's poor in whatever we loved as kids and digested as grown-ups and give it to the audience back " coloured shiny coat. THe part questioning the characters, their failures, etc. (sorry for the rant, this was not explicative, I would understand that you disliked this paragraph and the next one) Episode 26 WARNING For the last quote, I'll do a back and forth between you and me so no quotation presentation. I hope this won't be too confusing. The worst episode of the entire show. My favourite one. This episode alone broke my last defenses, were it not for it the series would probably proudly sit on the "Nine" throne, still topping everything else though) The episode literally begins with the words "However, there is far too little time left to make mention of it all", something I should never see in ANY show, much less a sci-fi one. Yes, we can take it as an excuse statement about the state of the series production (especially toward the end): "there is far too little time (and means) left to show you all the super duper SF events we had in store for you". But in-scenario, it isn't pejorative at all: it simply means the show can't possibly show us the full Instrumentality Process for all the characters we know, least of all the whole Earth population (nevermind that half of it was wiped out by Adam in 2000). So it invites us to simply follow Shinji during the whole thing (wich I actually liked more than the cases switching format the previous episode went for). Note: the "It's Scifi so there should not be a lack of explanation" is not really receivable, imagine someone saying that about some old anticipation or SF novels like HG Wells or Verne stuff. Sure, there are authors who try to detail/explain as much as they can, like C.Clarke, but they use that to make a certain point about something in society for example, and it also distracts our attention better from other unexplained elements we just have to accept. I always felt like there was a prominent type of Scifi where the "science" was only another name for magic in order to put a story in a futuristic or closer world rather than having a wholly fantasy world). The Human Instrumentality Project (still hasn't been explained) continues, revolving around Shinji. Answered in the ep25 paragraph. We get a funny school subplot, which I enjoyed, and then we get jolted back to Shinji... You make it sound like we suddenly get something foreign to the episode's story and appealing only to be sentenced to go back to the actual events of the finale. IWhile it is supposed to be perceived as a sudden break when you experience it for the first time, the point is easy to see right after it (apart from reusing a certain number of pictures/celluloids) especially with characters discoursing about it right afterwards. ... who comes to some epiphany and is surrounded by clapping people and a teleporting Pen Pen. Here, you conveniently skip the short studio chair scene leading into this big finale. You might want to go through those few minutes again. The clapping scene made me laugh because I recognized it from Gintama. Congratulations ! You earned another one: https://youtu.be/Ps0qokp9ibo This last episode also had some interesting shots and scenes with crayon, markers, and pencil (from budget constraints, I heard), but even those couldn't save this dumpster fire of an episode. Glad you appreciated some of the détours the makers took in order to circonvene the production problems. I found the episode great whithout considering the making process but I thought that the whole episode (and in a lesser extent the previous one) was a masterful exercise in exploitation of such a tricky situation (schedule/budget explosion and the sresulting lack of time/money/peoples) and Anno's original plans (original at least meaning some of the ideas he had retained among all his fluctuations over the course of the series production; a coworker/producer from that time even said that even without constraints/problems, the series would not have landed too far away from what we got). Making "The Beast that Shouted Love at the Center of the World" a quasi-masterpiece inside of Anno's magnum opus. I'm not surprised the man was satisfied with his work, contrarily to what happened with his previous experience with TV, an infernal development of a series (Nadia).[/i] To recap, from the last six episode alone, and only from stuff I can remember off the top of my head with a quick synopsis from the wiki, the following stuff goes unexplained. ... ... ... [*]What the fuck is up with Gendo's hand. I don't care if this stuff is explained in the End of Evangelion. As I said in the original post, a sequel SHOULD NOT be the only source of clarification for some material. It can provide ADDITIONAL clarity, but when there are this many unanswered questions, there is a problem with the writing. So,that leaves us with... Gendô's hand, right? (I thought I had gone over this point but it does not seem so.) I think you are refering to the episode 24? Welll, did you notice that past a certain point Gendô stop "showing" his unprotected right hand? Now, don't you remember the look of Adam's physical body when Kaji brought it (or rather stole it) from the german NERV to Gendô, you know that little disgusting thing that lured an angel to the boats carrying Asuka and her EVA to Japan? Well, Gendô simply implanted it in his hand and then we never got a chance to learn about it since he's so secretive that he never showed his right hand again after. If there were more points and I skipped then, feel free to say so in your future answer. By the way, although The End is sold among the internet believers as "the true ending of EVA (and don't bother with 25-26 ;) )", I think it was certainly influenced by the events following the show and differs at least as much as the TV End from the relatively envisioned ending Anno kind of had in mind before the sky fell on his head. So, yes, it's true that some things are explained a posteriori but nothing that is relevant to actually understanding the show's story. Just pieces of lore (that ar emostly not said in The End either or at most hinted at), etc. Many things you pointed out, without me having to stretch it, were actually featured in the series in an "integrated form" (there's surely a term for it but I don't know anything about creative writing, sorry) be it a picture, a dialogue (or its subtext), a chain of events etc while some were even said out by characters. I think this expectation of having the whole world born in the artist/creator's mind be layed down in front of you in the slightest possible detail (same for events that occur in it), revealing every little wheel of how it works is both a trap for the conceptor (the most a creator will try to explain an entirely fictional invention, the less it will look probable and be easy to accept by our mind) and for the consumer. I mostly see that among USA/America peoples (all ages) and since a few years in France and neighbouring countries (still limited to pretty young peoples and internet crowds) so maybe this is a local/cultural habit? A little bonus in case you are interested: https://www.polygon.com/2019/6/19/18683634/neon-genesis-evangelion-hideaki-anno-depression-shinji-anime-characters-movies It's not that big an article but it was the easiest to find. I hope you don't take this in a bad way, it's not to make you appear dumb or anything like that. I also don't think it's fair to accuse the series to not "explain" certain things when those things were passed on through picture/dialogue/behavioural narration (but it's true that the big EVA "myth" behind the show is never told and a lot of its elements are not delivered even by those means). @2abZ To paraphrase the explication cards, that was the Insturmentality Project taking place. From the point of view of the hero, mainly. |
Rei_IIIJan 30, 2020 4:51 AM
| First things first. I need to make an apology about my apology. Miraculously, even after saying I wanted to write less negatively I still came off as an asshole. To you and to anyone else who reads this: I didn't hate Neon Genesis that much, lol. I know how negatively it came off, and while it does sound damning, I want to express now that the show is NOT bad. After sitting on it for well over a month, watching the End of Evangelion, and talking about it with a friend of mine, my opinion has changed, albeit slightly. I still hold most of the viewpoints I made that I was personally disappointed, but I do not believe that my viewpoints then or now are even close to being objective. Anime is an art, and how art is interpreted can wildly differ from one person to another. I fully understand that while NGE was disappointing to me, it could have been mind blowing to others, and that's the note I want to leave this introduction on. I guess since I'll just do what you did and break down all of your points as you did mine. -I understood that he was executed, I just wished more had come of it. I'm not sure if it was intentionally left open to interpretation or just forgotten about, but it really did seem like more would come out of Kaji's death besides "He's gone now, but his death was not in vain in that it provided Misato with the inspiration to look into the Human Instrumentality Project." As a catalyst for pushing character development, his execution served wonderfully, but I wish we had at least gotten to know who pulled the trigger. Maybe it's similar to Gundam's recurring motif of insignificance in that the murderer was just some lackey. I guess I'll never know, and that bothers me. -I guess I'm just stupid, lol. I genuinely didn't remember any occurrence of them mentioning the Dogmas. -I know this wasn't a point either you or I made, but I wish to mention that the religion aspect never bothered me. As a Christian myself, I just thought it was kind of cool, and I only really noticed it because people had previously mentioned it. If I had started NGE without hearing about the Christian symbolism, I wouldn't have connected the dots. -Watching End of Evangelion definitely provided some much needed context as to what the hell the Spear of Longinus is. However, I stand by my original statement in this case. For such an instrumental part of the Human Instrumentality Project, it is given very little information in the original series. I'm curious if it was written in knowing that it would be expanded upon in the last two episodes but then that whole debacle happened. Doesn't change the fact that it should have been in the original, but oh well. At least it looked cool. -All of this symbolism is going over my head, wow. While all of these are good inferences to be made, but I still think more information should have been explicitly given. I'm not asking for everything to be spoon fed, but it's abundantly obvious that even after all of this time we still aren't really sure what Rei's background or heritage is, besides that she was born in that basement. The implication between Rei and Yui being connected is an interesting one, and I believe it is something I briefly noticed during my initial viewing of the TV show. I personally want to direct this conversation towards this quote from the wiki: The clones are said by Ritsuko to be the cores of the dummy plugs; she also refers to them as "spare parts" and later as "vessels" for Rei. The movie pamphlet and volume 11 of the manga state that she can be replaced entirely, with her soul being transferred to a new clone body every time she dies, although her memory becomes muddled with each transfer. Other supporting evidence in the anime includes her earlier line that "if I die, I can be replaced." It bothers me somewhat that a pamphlet and a manga are what was needed to clarify what the clones are. Sure, some of this can be inferred, but again, this kind of stuff should be better alluded to. I repeat what I've said multiple times: Alternative versions and/or sequels should not be necessary to understand fundamental concepts of an original show. It can expand upon it, but it should never be needed just to understand what someone is or who they are. I'm sure Rei's history was left shrouded in ambiguity intentionally, but there's a reason that I don't like open-ended shows: I don't like feeling left in the dark. This stuff shouldn't require an essay to be able to understand, in my eyes.-While I agree that in a single episode Nagisa's character arc was handled beautifully, I still believe it was wasted potential. I heard he plays a larger role in the remake movies. Maybe the situation is better there. -After watching End of Evangelion and discussing it with that aforementioned friend, I have a better grasp on what Adam and Lilith are (not going into the whole supplementary information tangent anymore, don't worry). However, even your reply leads to just more questions, like what are the Dead Sea Scrolls (is NGE suggesting that the Angels were alluded to in the ancient Jewish manuscripts)? What is the First Impact? I can't recall if the Dead Sea Scrolls were ever explained but I remember waiting for 26 days for an explanation as to what the First Impact was and never got it. As symbolic elements themselves and catalysts for the three impacts, I don't really mind the ambiguity surrounding Adam and Lilith. I'll chalk it up to Angels being too difficult for the human mind to comprehend and leave it there. -Not very surprising to hear this, but it still isn't a very good sign for an anime production. The Human Instrumentality project gets a blessing from above with the End of Evangelion, so I understand that one pretty well by now. I have no idea what Gendo was trying to go for, but it was probably something like bringing Yui back. -As I'm sure you've noticed by now, I hate abundant symbolism. A motif here and there is fine, but an entire episode of acid trip imagery is just not enjoyable, hence my distaste. Again, I can understand your enjoyment, but this wasn't for me, so I stand by what I said. -I'm going to guess that when I wrote this part, I was just making a light quip to avoid sounding 100% negative. I don't think I would earnestly believe this was simply them saying the production ran out of time. I can't be that stupid. -While this is somewhat true, the fact that to obtain such an understanding of the Human Instrumentality Project at this point without having watched and slowly digested episode 25 multiple times is still annoying to me. -Quick aside, I can't believe I was this much of an asshole while writing this, damn. -I understand that this is now supposed to be a physical representation of one's psyche while undergoing through instrumentality, but that doesn't make it any less jarring to go from postmodern symbolism to Asuka being best girl back to postmodern symbolism. -I wish I could go back and ask myself if I left this "short studio chair scene" out intentionally. I have no idea if that was my goal or not. I don't remember such a scene, but I also feel particularly apathetic when it comes to re-downloading NGE just to see this scene, so I'll take your word for it that such a scene added something meaningful to this episode. -Still funny. -Production problems aside, I still enjoyed these changes in animation style. I honestly see these things as an increase in effort, not a lack thereof. One of the reasons I'm enjoying Eizouken ni wa Te wo Dasu na! so much, actually. -On a technical level, yes, they did a very good job pulling something together despite the seemingly insurmountable production issues. That doesn't change the fact that the tone and pacing of 25 and 26 drastically differed from the rest of the series and can result in great whiplash for the unsuspecting viewer, like myself. If this was close to the original ending, I likely would have complained them too. This is simply too symbolic and open of an ending for my tastes, which is part of the reason why I vastly preferred the End of Evangelion, which featured more standard storytelling practices. I'm vanilla like that, I know. -That's really disgusting. Ew. I do not remember something luring the angel to the boats, but this makes sense. The wiki did mention that it was Adam in his hand, so I guess this isn't too implausible. Again, should have been explained better. His hand got such a close shot. That scene should have made me go "Whoa. That was the result of this, that's crazy." not "Uh, what's that? How did it get there?" and being even more confused after it never being referenced again in the original show (I think I remember it being referenced in End of Evangelion though). -Got most of them, I think. -I definitely don't think somebody should skip 25 + 26 because, in conjunction with 25 + 26 + End giving a great picture as to what the Human Instrumentality Project is, 25 and 26 are part of the original show and the original show should be judged for what it is, not on what it could have been. -Exactly, and I think this is why our opinions differ. This may be an American thing, we're dumb like that. I'm not sure. I would honestly think it's just a matter of preference. Some people watch anime to shut their mind off, this obviously wouldn't be the show for them. I'm not necessarily one of those people (I'm watching Monster right now and that has some fucked aspects as well), but I am also not someone who likes spending three hours typing about the inner meanings of a scene that happened fifteen episodes ago. This show required deep analysis and it happened to be very hit or miss. If you don't vibrate on the same wavelength as the creator, it's probably a pretty big miss for you, as it was for me. I'm all for analysis of a show, but it has to captivate me from the beginning and get me interested enough to want to undergo that analysis, and NGE never presented anything interesting enough to really grab a hold of me like other shows have. It's entirely possible that a few years later, once I've watched more anime, I will be able to rewatch it and get more enjoyment out of it, but for now I stand by most of what I originally said. Trust me, you weren't being rude. You defended something you enjoy, and you did it respectfully and with great detail. That's the literal reason for a forum in the first place: To start conversations. In the 600 forum posts I've made, you've literally been the only one, whether it be here or in the Gundam threads, that has actually tried to converse and understand WHY people didn't like a particular show. Most people just post here and book it. Which is fine, but a forum is for discussion. Thanks for giving me something to do. I have a lot of time to burn. Gonna go watch Ookami Kodomo no Ame to Yuki, so I'll catch you some other time. Have a good one! |
| I don't know what to think, that ending was so strange, so bizarre... well, in fact the last entire episodes were very rare... I honestly don't know what score to put on it, seriously I don't know The only thing I know is that the "Shinji and his friends adventures" part was very funny. In fact i want a spin off of that story.  |
AxelschMar 23, 2020 8:44 PM
| The first thing I thought after ending this, was... "I don't feel the need to watch End of Eva at all!"... I was and I am completely satisfied with this. It ends what was started through the show... The grow and the realization... Difficult finding the words, but i must say It was a bold and wonderful way to end a show. |
| It sucks, the only new and necessary thing we get is the second half of episode 26. The rest is basically a recap. I heard of people being blown away by the therapeutical and philosophical parts of it, but we're basically just being fed things that we should have been able to interpret through the story. They should have made the movie longer to include all of the character development for the rest of the cast too. |
| Sacrificing sleep and sanity for more anime-induced dopamine. |
| Ummmm wtf. Last 2 episodes weren't needed at all man.. Or you could just summarize them in 5 minutes (last 2 episodes).. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I think i ll have to watch End of Evangelion (movie) to see how it ended.. |
| Breakthrough. Shinji learned its okay to be himself. Nice. Really liked the end. Not a traditional happy ending in the slightest. It ended with true emotional growth and the realization of self-worth. Which much more profound. Excellent. |
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| Ok. So it was nice to see Shinji come to a muhh better conclusion within himself. But I felt like they didn't need two entire episodes to do so. And what exactly happened outside his head? Why did they decide to just forget about everything else? I feel like I can't properly rate this series until I've seen End of Evangelion, which will be next for me, as the only plot point that seems to have concluded is Shinji's internal struggle. Everything else just disappeared in episode 24. On its own, this was a really great series up until about episode 23-24. It just doesn't conclude properly. So I can see why they made a movie to end the other plot points. But it was a nice ride until that point. |
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| Episode 25 and 26 is the embodiment of the ideal world that exists during instrumentality. After watching EoE, it becomes clear that the events that happened during episode 26 is Shinji's "ideal world". |
| ..... right. i am confused as to how i feel about this. it's SUCH a shame how rushed this ending is because i really do think the ideas are fantastic, they have just been executed oddly. i wish they had laid out in simple(r) terms what exactly the human instrumentality project is and what it seeks to achieve a good 10-15 episodes prior, and then continued threads of it as the show went on, rather than dropping hints every now and then. but i understand, troubled production and budget constraints and what not, it's fair enough. there are a few core ideas this show keeps reiterating: humans long for connection with others and cannot function alone. loneliness is what cripples the heart and mind the most. we are all deserving of our place here and of love and happiness. and we can choose our reality and create our own future. pretty deep stuff huh but it's sooooo good, refreshing even, to see a show take a mecha concept and explore so deeply into the psychology of the characters and how duty/war/expectation affects their minds. just..... consistency would have really elevated this to a whole new level i loved the sequence of shinji's silhouette filled in with clips/images a few minutes into the episode, i thought that looked GREAT and you could probably read a lot into it, about how all the experiences and feelings shown inside him have shaped him as a person etc etc. and the pen drawings of the characters looked really good as well!! but the price of all this exploration is that the plot suffered a lot. there are so many questions i have that i hope the director's cut and end of evangelion approach and answer i think because i know that this is not it, there is still more to watch, i am not as disappointed as people would have been who followed this live before the movie came out |
maiawatchesanime said: 1. I wish they had laid out in simple(r) terms what exactly the human instrumentality project is and what it seeks to achieve a good 10-15 episodes prior, rather than dropping hints every now and then. 2. There are so many questions i have that i hope the director's cut and end of evangelion approach and answer 1. How could they more than hint at something they didn't know themselves? (maybe at the 10 episodes prior, certainly not earlier) 2. I'm not sure what led you to hope that. ^^" You might be disappointed. November 7, 2020 @Kebapche There was a single main director (the creator of the show). He indeed "lost his mind" over the course of the series. But this ending is more or less what was envisioned earlier during the making so it has little to do with that.. November 10, 2020 HarryRambod22 said: Man they really ran out of money this last episode. They didn't even bother animating for example half this episode just drawn sketches. And yet the last episode is very close to what was envisioned (it feels even like it, unlike the previous episode). Anyway, true creative works are born out of boundaries/limits, not total freedom of creation. November 21, 2020 @wonhallyy17 Or you can check what happens during/around those episodes in The End of Evangelion. You already had a few snippets from "reality" anyway, why not complete them ? I'm basically watching a ppt presentation. I never saw it that way (I'm from a time before the "ppt" craze) but it's funny : sounds like Anno and his team were visionaries. XD April 1, 2021 The first two points were answered by the series (either in one go or with informations put in several episodes). The third point shouldn't affect understanding the story (Even if you get some small pieces about it in the film.) |
Rei_IIIApr 1, 2021 2:08 AM
| i really loved the ending tbh the only reason why ppl hate it is because they wanna know wat happens to the others like asuka and rei but i personaly loved it because shinji curing from depression was the point of this whole series weve been introduced to shinjis depression since the first episode i mean you dont need a big monster fight or anything to make a good ending |
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| Oh man, my brain is a mess! Now I'm gonna watch the End of Evangelion movies then try to lookup an explanation video on youtube or something. |
| --AbiSa-- |
| Lmao what did I just watch. I can't even consider this an ending, this episode was such an unusual thing that it almost looks like some filler episode made for fun where plot takes place in alternative universe + some weird psychological scenes. I mean the final minutes were very weird , it's like Shinji finally beaten his mental problems and realised who he really is or can be in different dimention/universe. The main goal of episodes similar to these in Evangelion is to confuse the viewer and force him to start asking himself questions about what he just witnessed which makes this probably one of a few anime out there that has such an unique stuff. The only thing I've seen confusingly similar to this and other episodes has to be Satoshi Kon's Perfect blue but even that wasn't as mind blowing as this. I have no idea how to even rate such a finale, It gets all the points for uniqueness but everything else is just in big question so I think it would be fair to say that it purely depends on each viewer separately to rate this or maybe I just haven't seen enought psychological genre things and this is normal once you start watching a bunch of them. Looks like the biggest question mark left is the movie, I just hope I won't quit it after first 20 mins |
| I'm pretty conflicted with how to rate this show after finishing. I think it was really good, but I'm not a fan of the open endings, so it was a huge turn off for me to see these last 2 episodes, there's just so many unanswered questions. |
| Deep down, we all have trash taste |
| Man they really ran out of money this last episode. They didn't even bother animating for example half this episode just drawn sketches. |
| 2016. The case of Shinji. Asuka wakes Shinji. Shinji has morning wood. Yui and Gendo. Dat slap. Ah! The toast in the mouth while running then bumping into someone. One possible world. Everyone claps for Shinji. Pen Pen! Dat ending. Dat ending...... Omedetou. |
| If you see that my post is exactly 1 month old (or more) from when it was posted... Don't waste your time, especially when you want to reply with something petty & insignificant. Assume that I've moved on (because I have). |
| anime PEAKED here guys there's nothing else to see after that |
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