| I mean, look how video games exploded in profitability when digital distribution came along. Anime has Crunchyroll, which probably has a grand total of 0.05% of anime ever produced. Thus I could never pay for it. Plus, I don't stream other than as a last resort, (and most of the time not even then) I'm only interested in local files. Is the anime industry really technologically backwards, or are they too ingrained in 'turf mentality' to ever be able to work together on a download distribution platform? If there was a legal outlet with more than 90% of the content in existence, to buy and download (or stream if the user was so inclined) anime, I honestly think the anime industry could increase their profits tenfold. But maybe that would be a bad thing, if it got too lucrative, maybe we would head towards lower quality and more quantity, just like what has happened on Steam. |
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JD2411 said: because they don't care about their western fanbase It would probably do them a lot of good to care about money. |
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| Because change is bitchin' difficult. That also applies to a fanbase used to getting everything for free on the internet. |
| I wonder if Galapagos Syndrome could be applied to the anime industry as well? |
| Too busy animating tits and panties to care about their western OR eastern fanbase. Just a studio pandering to those money throwing otakus. |
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Red_Tuesday said: did they? other than steam, "exploded" sounds like an overstatementI mean, look how video games exploded in profitability when digital distribution came along. Red_Tuesday said: lol going by this http://www.crunchyroll.com/videos/anime/alpha?group=all Anime has Crunchyroll, which probably has a grand total of 0.05% of anime ever produced. Thus I could never pay for it. Plus, I don't stream other than as a last resort, (and most of the time not even then) I'm only interested in local files. it's not even 0.05% but come to think of it, why don't all these legal sites allow downloading? i always found that weird Red_Tuesday said: lol 90% of the content in existence would require a gargantuan amount of work; most of it is basically abandonware, already fansubbed, which neither the creators, nor the community cares about anymoreIs the anime industry really technologically backwards, or are they too ingrained in 'turf mentality' to ever be able to work together on a download distribution platform? If there was a legal outlet with more than 90% of the content in existence, to buy and download (or stream if the user was so inclined) anime, I honestly think the anime industry could increase their profits tenfold. i'm sure that both the animation studios and the western distributors have their reasons why this hasn't happened yet, probably in regards to profitability, no way to know Red_Tuesday said: obviously, licensing every forgotten shit ever does not sound like a good idea; also, i believe that movies and popular series would be more expensive to license But maybe that would be a bad thing, if it got too lucrative, maybe we would head towards lower quality and more quantity, just like what has happened on Steam. there are also some noticeable differences between vidya and anime: gaming community > anime community (in size) a worthwhile game can be made by a small independent team, but an anime cannot (i.e higher minimum production cost) in general, people are less willing to buy tv shows; anime is broadcast on tv, and money comes from ratings or BD sales; games are directly sold for money, and that's where the profits come from; add these 3 points together, and anime is just less profitable than video games |
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rederoin said: This won't change anything about being un-able to get it for free. It would remove most excuses for not paying for it, though. In regards to how much content they should have, I would say 90% of the content going forward, as well as any anime they're still interested in from the past. |
Red_Tuesday said: As I said that other time, oh please. Your list isn't consistent with an interest in all types and eras of anime. Given that you've completed exactly zero titles from before 2005, I'm inclined to believe that you're not all that anxious to see the vast numbers of anime from the 70s-80s-90s and before that've never been translated to English (or the ones that have, for that matter) -- the Western anime fandom doesn't care about them, and neither do you. Demanding a 90% threshold is simply moving the goalposts beyond the moon because you want the industry to fail. As time goes on and the fandom starts refusing to watch all but the most evergreen-classic pre-CR (i.e. mid/late-2000s and before) anime, CR's percentage of anime that people actually care about will only go up and up if they keep licensing almost all of every season.I mean, look how video games exploded in profitability when digital distribution came along. Anime has Crunchyroll, which probably has a grand total of 0.05% of anime ever produced. Thus I could never pay for it. Plus, I don't stream other than as a last resort, (and most of the time not even then) I'm only interested in local files. Is the anime industry really technologically backwards, or are they too ingrained in 'turf mentality' to ever be able to work together on a download distribution platform? Gee, I wonder why conservative Japanese businesses that've watched their sales (especially overseas) plummet due to DRM-free Internet downloads would mistrust DRM-free Internet downloads!If there was a legal outlet with more than 90% of the content in existence, to buy and download (or stream if the user was so inclined) anime, I honestly think the anime industry could increase their profits tenfold. Only if the industry could charge download prices comparable to what they pull in from disc distribution. Are you prepared to pay ~$4.60 per ep (typical Sentai/Funimation per-ep MSRP), ~$8.75 per ep (typical Aniplex USA price), or ~$35-$40 per ep (typical Japanese price)? Even downloads at lower prices than that would still be "competing with free," not to mention fans' preferences for the way that pirates present and localize anime over the way that companies present and localize anime.But maybe that would be a bad thing, if it got too lucrative, maybe we would head towards lower quality and more quantity, just like what has happened on Steam. Does Steam have 90% of all video games ever produced? Why buy anything from them if they don't? I don't think an easy parallel between video games and anime can be drawn, since much of the expansion from video games came from casual games like Candy Crush that the core fandom despises, not from the masses getting into high-budget AAA "gamer" titles simply because they were available as paid downloads.TripleSRank said: Not all of them, though. We've seen that a fair portion of the anime viewer base prefers the way that the pirate scene presents and localizes anime over the way the industry presents and localizes anime. Moving to paid downloads wouldn't change that -- otoh, you get the exact same game whether you buy it on Steam or download it. (Same goes for songs/.mp3 and US movies/TV shows.) Rather than the industry needing to fix its distribution problem, the viewer base needs to fix its "refusing to pay for things they like for irrational reasons" problem.It would remove most excuses for not paying for it, though. |
ZalisSep 28, 2014 1:21 PM
on 
JD2411 said: because they don't care about their western fanbase This. The Japanese make way more from fans at home on their over-priced rip-off discs; selling a license to a foreign distributor is just a drop in the bucket. Also digital download-to-own would not be a wise business strategy because they'd have to lower the price without a physical product and if it was cheaper those Japanese marks would be going digital and the sales from physical media where they extort all their mone would plummet. Also download to own sucks, because there's nothing to put on a shelf and display. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
Red_Tuesday said: JD2411 said: because they don't care about their western fanbase It would probably do them a lot of good to care about money. Japan is too xenophobic to start thinking about making shekels. |
| Dont worry about the morality of streaming, OP. If Japan doesnt wanna sell something to someone, they cant bitch about that very person "stealing" it. JD2411 said: because they don't care about their western fanbase Aaaaaaannnnnnddddd /thread. |
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| Why should people believe you care about DTO services having "90% of all anime" when you only show interest in a small sliver of it? Why not scale your demand to a more reasonable "80% of all anime made after 2004" or something? Mod Edit: Removed baiting. |
VudisSep 30, 2014 11:12 AM
| They're too busy animating panty-shots and lolis, i love those 2 by the way |
FragOutFire said: Why am I a Berserk fan? All I ever experience is pain. We are in the eclipse and Miura has sacrificed us |
| piracy is a global pricing problem http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/03/report-piracy-a-global-pricing-problem-with-only-one-solution/ as well as distribution problem so OP has some point |
JD2411 said: Well they at least care enough that they'd launch an anti piracy campaign in an effort to make more money off of us.because they don't care about their western fanbase Though apparently not enough to subtitle and make available to everyone in the world all the shows where the only way of watching them presently is through fansubs Seriously though, shit's pretty fucked up in Japan. The cost of one season of Breaking Bad over there is almost as much as I paid for the entire show. |
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SeibaaHomu said: JD2411 said: Well they at least care enough that they'd launch an anti piracy campaign in an effort to make more money off of us.because they don't care about their western fanbase Though apparently not enough to subtitle and make available to everyone in the world all the shows where the only way of watching them presently is through fansubs Seriously though, shit's pretty fucked up in Japan. The cost of one season of Breaking Bad over there is almost as much as I paid for the entire show. Japanese studios need to embrace boxsets more and stop charging by the volume, I can wait a few months for a boxset of an anime I want to import and save a little money over buying by the volume which is usually more expensive. |
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Red_Tuesday said: But maybe that would be a bad thing, if it got too lucrative, maybe we would head towards lower quality and more quantity, just like what has happened on Steam.   Yah, pretty much this. The biggest fear for fans would be that they profit a bit too much and we start seeing a lot more Lucky Stars, Bobobos or Narutos. |
| [quote=Zalis] Red_Tuesday said: Why should people believe you care about DTO services having "90% of all anime" when you only show interest in a small sliver of it? Why not scale your demand to a more reasonable "80% of all anime made after 2004" or something? I started watching anime all of 4 months ago. Who the balls do you think you are to come here and tell me you know exactly what I'm thinking because I didn't start with the ass-end of the spectrum? After all, it's only natural that new movie watchers go watch Battleship Potemkin first, before being "allowed" to say they like movies. Eh? Mod Edit: Removed baiting. |
VudisSep 30, 2014 11:56 AM
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| at least answer this question from his post plz: "Are you prepared to pay ~$4.60 per ep (typical Sentai/Funimation per-ep MSRP), ~$8.75 per ep (typical Aniplex USA price), or ~$35-$40 per ep (typical Japanese price)?" Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post. |
VudisSep 30, 2014 11:25 AM
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Hulmy-chan said: Implying that those fanbases don't enjoy tits and panties. Obviously people here only watch stuff like House of the Five Leaves (those who have to look it up are type B). |
| The question the OP asked is interesting, and one that excites me as an economist. There is little question that distribution is horrendous, but why? "Piracy" isn't really an answer, since piracy goes up as a function of poor/over-priced/unavailable distribution. On an anecdotal level, I have bought anime before, and would buy a lot more if more of the series I enjoyed were available in the US. Perhaps demand for non-popular shoujo/shounen is so low outside of Japan that putting resources into quality distribution doesn't make sense? That would be the simple answer, and arguably what the Japanese companies and their analysts think. They might be right, too. Also, I looked up Crunchyroll for the first time in 4-5 years, and honestly...it's not terrible. They have modeled themselves (down to the interface) after Netflix, and their selection isn't much worse, relatively speaking, than Netflix's streaming service. (Impressive considering the orders of magnitude difference in budget, server space, support, etc. between the two companies) |
Red_Tuesday said: You're perfectly allowed to like anime after any given length of time; it's only when you start making these massive demands of the industry and saying "do this or I'll keep pirating" that your motives become suspect. I never said "your stance is invalid because you only have 105 anime listed, noob." It's the age distribution of those titles I looked at, and I would've made the same conclusion on a list of 1005 anime with only 48 entries more than a decade old. And even if you've only been watching for a few months, adding titles to Plan to Watch takes essentially no time. But rather than assuming any more, I'll ask you outright: which of these statements is closest to true?I started watching anime all of 4 months ago. Who the balls do you think you are to come here and tell me you know exactly what I'm thinking because I didn't start with the ass-end of the spectrum? After all, it's only natural that new movie watchers go watch Battleship Potemkin first, before being "allowed" to say they like movies. Eh? A) You are interested in older anime, but haven't gotten around to watching any or adding any to your Plan to Watch yet. B) You believe that 90%* of all anime was made in the early/mid-2000s or after. C) You're not interested in the "ass-end of the spectrum," as you call it, but you insist that the industry localize it and make it available on a theoretical download-to-own website anyway, for ::reasons::. D) Something else (explain?) One can see why I've been going with (C), because I see a contradiction: if you're interested in older anime (despite your apparently low opinion of it), why haven't you watched any or even marked any of it PTW? And if you're not interested in it, why insist that a DTO site include it? *Math and stuff YoungVagabond said: Of the 68 titles you've ranked 7 or higher, at least 43 of them have been available in the US at some point in time. Whether they were still available when you started collecting may be another matter, of course.I have bought anime before, and would buy a lot more if more of the series I enjoyed were available in the US. |
Zalis said: YoungVagabond said: Of the 68 titles you've ranked 7 or higher, at least 43 of them have been available in the US at some point in time. Whether they were still available when you started collecting may be another matter, of course.I have bought anime before, and would buy a lot more if more of the series I enjoyed were available in the US. I don't know what you're looking at, and theoretical availability isn't the issue, so let me give you a concrete example. I would be up for buying a quality boxed set of the first Kaiji series, but looking now on Amazon, none exists. There are a bunch of random, mismatched DVDs, and the only complete one has a mismatched item description! http://www.amazon.com/Gyakkyo-Burai-Kaiji--Hakairoku-hen-TV1-26End/dp/B002KJK2R0/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1412067886&sr=1-2&keywords=kaiji Editorial Reviews Description: Gyakkyo Burai Kaiji -Hakairoku-hen TV1-26End Anime DVD [Summer 2011 Anime] [LF] ''''''' '''' Kaiji 2 When her mother runs off with her latest boyfriend, Ohana Matsumae is sent to live with her grandmother, who she has never met nor spoken to. Her grandmother is not pleased to find Ohana on her doorstep, and sets her to work at her Taisho-era (1920s) hot springs inn. It's not a lifestyle that Ohana would have chosen, but she decides not to be discouraged and to make the most of her difficult circumstances. It's also never made clear whether this is the first or second season, whether it includes subs and/or dubs (and by who), if there are any special features, etc. Oh, and the price of jumping in blind for a possibly horribly-made DVD starts at $161! By contrast, a DVD of a television show with the same (maybe even slightly greater) running time, good production value, and a shitload of special features, Boardwalk Empire Season 1, is available for $26.49 Clearly, this is a lapse in distribution. But again, they probably figure that putting more resources into a quality DVD product wouldn't give a good ROI (return on investment). Perhaps they're right. I will say that Crunchyroll seems to have improved in the last 4-5 years, and will hopefully continue improving the distribution problem. Or at least on the streaming end. |
| Tough question to answer, but it's overall their loss. |
alpha_shadowSep 30, 2014 10:52 AM
| :3 |
| Thread cleaned. Please keep insults and baiting to a minimum. There's a way to calmy discuss this topic (I hope). |
| A download service would be great for the industry. I wouldn't use it but I know a lot of people would. |
YoungVagabond said: By contrast, a DVD of a television show with the same (maybe even slightly greater) running time, good production value, and a shitload of special features, Boardwalk Empire Season 1, is available for $26.49 The economics of HBO and advertiser-supported programming are markedly different from those facing anime producers. Most series made for television in the US are designed to break even based on expected advertising revenues. The real profits are made in syndication (reruns on local stations and networks), foreign sales, and discs. So producers are not trying to recoup their investments in series simply by selling DVDs. The anime industry looks nothing like this. There is no source of prior revenue available to Japanese production committees to cover their costs. In most cases the committees purchase time from the networks themselves to show these programs. Remember that most anime are created to promote the works they adapt. To take one example, Chihayafuru got a second anime season when sales of its manga nearly quadrupled after the first season aired. They are also intended to sell key chains, dakimakara, figurines, and the like, which generate additional licensing fees. All of this means your typical anime show has to rely on higher prices for discs than a show like Boardwark Empire where most of the costs were covered out of the fees paid by HBO subscribers. |
| The reason animu exists is to boost LN and manga sales -most of the times- Sure, they also earn some extra coin with the sales of merchandise (figures, dolls, onaholes, etc) and BD box-sets but the income with broadcasting is low and just a few of the publishers care about the western market (Kadokawa) so, yea, that's why. |
SeijiSensei said: [/QUOTE]YoungVagabond said: By contrast, a DVD of a television show with the same (maybe even slightly greater) running time, good production value, and a shitload of special features, Boardwalk Empire Season 1, is available for $26.49 The economics of HBO and advertiser-supported programming are markedly different from those facing anime producers. Most series made for television in the US are designed to break even based on expected advertising revenues. The real profits are made in syndication (reruns on local stations and networks), foreign sales, and discs. So producers are not trying to recoup their investments in series simply by selling DVDs. The anime industry looks nothing like this. There is no source of prior revenue available to Japanese production committees to cover their costs. In most cases the committees purchase time from the networks themselves to show these programs. Remember that most anime are created to promote the works they adapt. To take one example, Chihayafuru got a second anime season when sales of its manga nearly quadrupled after the first season aired. They are also intended to sell key chains, dakimakara, figurines, and the like, which generate additional licensing fees. All of this means your typical anime show has to rely on higher prices for discs than a show like Boardwark Empire where most of the costs were covered out of the fees paid by HBO subscribers. I'm well aware of all this. It's irrelevant to the point I made, which is that from the consumer end, one product represents an astronomically better value than the other. There is no reason the difference should be that vast, even taking into account the factors mentioned above. Put simply, if they put out a decent, well-described Kaji DVD box set for $40, they would make way more profit (not sales, but profit) than the undescribed, questionable, likely low-quality DVD box set starting at $161 they're offering now. |
FGAU1912 said: xbobx said: The reason animu exists is to boost LN and manga sales -most of the times- Sure, they also earn some extra coin with the sales of merchandise (figures, dolls, onaholes, etc) and BD box-sets but the income with broadcasting is low and just a few of the publishers care about the western market (Kadokawa) so, yea, that's why. that is for anime yo like not industry wide I said and I quote: -most of the times- But since you want to argue, give me a counter example. |
| the honest answer here is simple. Crunchyroll costs 6 dollars a month. Anime limited edition sets cost 600 dollars. anime is a collectors item, and making it readily available will tarnish the value. its the exact same reason why you cant read every comic book ever made on one single website. Mod Edit: Merged double post. Please edit your previous post |
TyrelOct 10, 2014 12:13 PM
| Steam didn't grow to be popular just because it was a digital distribution client offering lots of games; it grew because A) Valve forced it as a requirement for all of their highly sought after titles since Half-Life 2, and B) They offer a really cheap pricing model with frequent sales. Emphasis on B because I think that's really anime's biggest problem. It's just too expensive. Need to offer more complete box sets at one low price. Funimation has been making great strides in fixing this, but even then they still haven't reached impulse buy status, and other companies like Aniplex are just absurdly behind the times. |
kingcity20 said: Oh for the love of -_- nvm gotta love MAL |
FGAU1912 said: SolviteSekai said: anime is a collectors item, and making it readily available will tarnish the value. its the exact same reason why you cant read every comic book ever made on one single website. thrs cause lazy ness there are reprints of rare comics they still cant be streamed or legally downloaded |
Red_Tuesday said: JD2411 said: because they don't care about their western fanbase It would probably do them a lot of good to care about money. you do realise that in order for a game/movie/tv series to get released in other parts of the world you need a publisher in that area if your not careful when signing a contract with another company look what happened to macross when it "got released to the united states" the safer way would be to set up a western branch but those usually get shutdown because the lack of money made. even games can't get released here even with digital distribution look at fatal frame 4 and the remake of 2 hell publishing and other copyright stuff is one of the few reason the touhou games does not have a western digital download. |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
SolviteSekai said: anime is a collectors item, and making it readily available will tarnish the value. its the exact same reason why you cant read every comic book ever made on one single website. Actually, there are several websites I can think of that offer a wealth of comic books. Some legally, others illegally. And I don't understand the relevance of "tarnishing the value of a collector's item"; before the printing press, books cost a fortune. So I guess Gutenberg "tarnished the value of books" by making them cheap and widely available, but it's also considered one of the greatest advances in human history. Similarly, making anime cheaper and more readily accessible wouldn't just be a boon for consumers, but lead to far more profit for the companies themselves. MiniSiets said: Steam didn't grow to be popular just because it was a digital distribution client offering lots of games; it grew because A) Valve forced it as a requirement for all of their highly sought after titles since Half-Life 2, and B) They offer a really cheap pricing model with frequent sales. Emphasis on B because I think that's really anime's biggest problem. It's just too expensive. Need to offer more complete box sets at one low price. Funimation has been making great strides in fixing this, but even then they still haven't reached impulse buy status, and other companies like Aniplex are just absurdly behind the times. Indeed. The question is of course why? My theory is that a quant analysis indicated that putting the additional resources into making a quality DVD product wouldn't reap enough benefit in terms of additional sales. |
SolviteSekai said: FGAU1912 said: thrs cause lazy ness there are reprints of rare comics they still cant be streamed or legally downloaded SolviteSekai said: anime is a collectors item, and making it readily available will tarnish the value. its the exact same reason why you cant read every comic book ever made on one single website. solvite the double post the edit button please Q_Q its not that hard on another note any one check the new price for the kara no kyoukai box set because it was like 400 usd + before the 8th movie, what is it now 1000? |
GrimAtramentOct 7, 2014 4:40 PM
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
Lancehot said: YoungVagabond said: My theory is that a quant analysis indicated that putting the additional resources into making a quality DVD product wouldn't reap enough benefit in terms of additional sales. That's it in a nutshell, really. The market for otaku anime in Japan isn't big enough that they could hope to compensate for the loss on individual unit sales with increased sales numbers in most cases. Most shows rely on a few thousand nerds/rental stores willing to cough up £50-60/volume to make back their investment (international distribution deals don't count for much in the grand scheme of things) & switching from that model to the Western £20-30/season boxset model would leave far more shows in the red each season than there already are. This is all pure conjecture without an actual look at the numbers. You're assuming this is true because of what the anime production companies have done, but it can well be wrong. In fact, as an economist, I can tell you that the supply and demand curves would have to be pretty unusual and exotic for this to be true. Either that, or a proper DVD release is a lot more expensive than I imagine. (Another vital piece of data we don't have) Notice that in the quoted portion, I was merely referring to the quant analysis done by these companies. Quant analysis can be right or wrong. |
SolviteSekai said: anime is a collectors item, and making it readily available will tarnish the value. its the exact same reason why you cant read every comic book ever made on one single website. That's a really bad argument. It doesn't even make any sense at all either. The only reason the sites don't have all series is because of licensing issues. |
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