IntroverTurtle said: Have you ever thought that that's because there are no content limits for each demo? You mention Monster, one series, but Monster is clearly not of the seinen demo because it's content is nothing like K-ON, Hidamari Sketch, or A-channel. Pfft, do japanese adults really watch K-ON...oh wait.. TheRefractingOne said: Battle Shounen is a genre though. Fairy Tail, Naruto, Hunter x Hunter, and One Piece are all battle shounen. People usually just refer to battle shounen as simply "shounen". Demographics aren't always descriptive enough about a series' content either. Nana is part of the shoujo demographic but clearly it's content is josei, Gangsta is a seinen, but it's content is more shounen-esque and barely comparable to seinen like Monster. Well, you are outright wrong. If we want to argue semantics, battle shonen is not a genre. Battle(/action) is a genre, not battle shounen. Shonen is a demographic, and really that's all there is to it. It's a simple concept, it's shounen because it can be better marketed towards teens than adults, that's a demographic. It's in the battle genre, because it focuses on action second to the story. It is a really simple concept, Gansta is marketed towards older males. Because that's what seninen is. You're arguing it has aspects that'll appeal to younger boys, but that group is still not what it's marketed towards. Battle shounen still works as a term though, it's a shounen that focuses primarily on battling. But the term itself...isn't really a genre. Lancehot said: It's the pedantic things that weebs get passionate about. Admittedly this is pretty pedant. |
ashfrliebertSep 23, 2015 12:38 PM
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
| Because people don't do their research. |
 |
| I'm sure people will get on my case about this but.... does it really matter? I mean, yeah you can argue that it is a bit ignorant to use a term that is supposed to refer to a demographic as a genre. But in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter that much? |
 |
sman3579 said: I'm sure people will get on my case about this but.... does it really matter? I mean, yeah you can argue that it is a bit ignorant to use a term that is supposed to refer to a demographic as a genre. But in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter that much? No, not it doesn't. |
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
sman3579 said: I'm sure people will get on my case about this but.... does it really matter? I mean, yeah you can argue that it is a bit ignorant to use a term that is supposed to refer to a demographic as a genre. But in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter that much? In the grand scheme of things, pretty much nothing people argue about on here matters. It's not like significance is a prerequisite for discussion around here. |
Equitum said: sman3579 said: I'm sure people will get on my case about this but.... does it really matter? I mean, yeah you can argue that it is a bit ignorant to use a term that is supposed to refer to a demographic as a genre. But in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter that much? In the grand scheme of things, pretty much nothing people argue about on here matters. Touche, but really though, this just seems really trivial. Especially for some people to get mad over. As long as people know what type of shows you are talking about isn't that good enough. Arguing about "shonen" being a demographic over a genre type (even though it is) just seems so pretentious. Call me what you want, ignorant, casual, stupid, I don't care; but this just doesn't seem like as big of a deal as some people are making it seem. |
|
| Comes in handy to describe a particular form of generic, arc-based, action series about super-powered people fighting and blowing stuff up. Ex: Bleach, Dragonball Z, Fairy Tail, Naruto, One Piece. etc. There are so many of these they might as well be their own genre. In short I think it works well as a sub-genre for action as well as a demographic. |
KruszerSep 23, 2015 1:13 PM
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97"  |
| Shounen is a "Demographic" Action is a "Genre" "Action Shounen" (or as people put it, "Battle Shounen") is an Action type manga (or perhaps also an anime adapted from a manga) that is part of the "shounen"-demographic. That's what it IS. People can make up various fanon and so on, but at the end of the day this is what would considered "academically correct". Well, actually the terms "Action Shounen" and "Battle Shounen" technically don't even exist and are fanon too, but this is the closest to what makes it acceptable as a "composition" between a genre and a demographic. It's an entirely different matter if you say "it is LIKE a(n) Action Shounen/Battle Shounen", because that just describes similarity. |
 |
| For all intents and purposes, "battle shonen" is a genre. |
Agafin said: For all intents and purposes, "battle shonen" is a genre. What about Terraformars, Tokyo ghoul and One Punch Man? Should we call those battle shounen too? |
sman3579 said: In the grand scheme of things, does your post even matter?I'm sure people will get on my case about this but.... does it really matter? I mean, yeah you can argue that it is a bit ignorant to use a term that is supposed to refer to a demographic as a genre. But in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter that much? |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
sman3579 said: Touche, but really though, this just seems really trivial. Especially for some people to get mad over. As long as people know what type of shows you are talking about isn't that good enough. Arguing about "shonen" being a demographic over a genre type (even though it is) just seems so pretentious. Call me what you want, ignorant, casual, stupid, I don't care; but this just doesn't seem like as big of a deal as some people are making it seem. Occasional mistakes or people accidentally labeling it as a genre does not bother many of us. MAL doesn't help much neither with its stupid tagging system (what the hell is "dementia"?) -there's a lot of suggestions on that other sub-forum asking for changes but nobody seems to care. What really is irritating/tiresome and cross the 'trivial mistake -> annoying ignorance' line are situations where the one making the mistake of labeling it a genre is using exactly this fallacious argument to set up a dumb point. e.g: "the shounen genre is so stupid", "ppl who watch action and shounen anime are dumb", "I'm so mature so I like mature shounen not girly slice-of-life", "the shounen genre is so uninspired, everything is just like naruto" and so on. If you want to criticize something, it's expected from you that at least you'll have a decent prior knowledge in the stuff you're shitting on or at least have decent arguments on it. Shounen, as a demographics, doesn't even have a place in any of these discussions as it's just a indicative of the target market they're aimed for. It's a wide, embracing term that needs careful wording before placed in a sentence. That's why we (me, and people I know) make a big deal of it. |
| I guess One Piece is a "battle seinen" then? Proof: http://www.saiyanisland.com/2011/12/88-of-one-piece-fans-are-adults/ |
|
Grey-Zone said: I guess One Piece is a "battle seinen" then? Proof: http://www.saiyanisland.com/2011/12/88-of-one-piece-fans-are-adults/ There is a difference between what you target and what you hit. A demographic is about which kind of people you're targeting(Oda said that he targets boys at age of around 15 years). The fact that other people end up liking the series is not directly related with the demographic. In reality every Big Hitter has a big fanbase in every kind of demographic. that doesn't mean that the author, the publisher and the advertiser should start to target everybody. For example, One Piece as a huge amount of female fans, and they sent a lot of letters to Oda about putting romance and things of the genre, and even about removing certain things(like Senor Pink) . Oda said in interviews and/or in the volumes SBS that he is still targeting to young boys, and if that wasn't the case One Piece would be totally different. |
| Most people refer the popular anime (naruto, dbz, bleach, one piece etc.) as shounen so it caught on. |
  |
IntroverTurtle said: Have you ever thought that that's because there are no content limits for each demo? You mention Monster, one series, but Monster is clearly not of the seinen demo because it's content is nothing like K-ON, Hidamari Sketch, or A-channel. But according to popular definitions, Monster fits the seinen bill perfectly, whilst K-On, Gangsta, and the like don't. I'm fully aware that shounen, seinen, shoujo, and josei are demographics, not genres, and as such they don't have limits in terms of content, but if one is to use the common definitions for each demographic, my statement makes sense. ashfrliebert said: Well, you are outright wrong. If we want to argue semantics, battle shonen is not a genre. Battle(/action) is a genre, not battle shounen. Shonen is a demographic, and really that's all there is to it. It's a simple concept, it's shounen because it can be better marketed towards teens than adults, that's a demographic. It's in the battle genre, because it focuses on action second to the story. It is a really simple concept, Gansta is marketed towards older males. Because that's what seninen is. You're arguing it has aspects that'll appeal to younger boys, but that group is still not what it's marketed towards. Battle shounen still works as a term though, it's a shounen that focuses primarily on battling. But the term itself...isn't really a genre. I don't really want to argue semantics at all though. I'm just saying that the contents of a demographic don't always fall in line with the popular definitions of a demographic, and thus used examples. And yes, battle shounen is a perfectly acceptable term in describing an anime's contents, and one which accurately describes the core of many different series, so it only makes sense to call it a genre, even if it might not be defined like that by "formal" sources like the magazines they're published in, etc., it's still perfectly acceptable for use in the anime community. |
ashfrliebert said: IntroverTurtle said: Have you ever thought that that's because there are no content limits for each demo? You mention Monster, one series, but Monster is clearly not of the seinen demo because it's content is nothing like K-ON, Hidamari Sketch, or A-channel. Pfft, do japanese adults really watch K-ON...oh wait.. TheRefractingOne said: Battle Shounen is a genre though. Fairy Tail, Naruto, Hunter x Hunter, and One Piece are all battle shounen. People usually just refer to battle shounen as simply "shounen". Demographics aren't always descriptive enough about a series' content either. Nana is part of the shoujo demographic but clearly it's content is josei, Gangsta is a seinen, but it's content is more shounen-esque and barely comparable to seinen like Monster. Well, you are outright wrong. If we want to argue semantics, battle shonen is not a genre. Battle(/action) is a genre, not battle shounen. Shonen is a demographic, and really that's all there is to it. It's a simple concept, it's shounen because it can be better marketed towards teens than adults, that's a demographic. It's in the battle genre, because it focuses on action second to the story. It is a really simple concept, Gansta is marketed towards older males. Because that's what seninen is. You're arguing it has aspects that'll appeal to younger boys, but that group is still not what it's marketed towards. Battle shounen still works as a term though, it's a shounen that focuses primarily on battling. But the term itself...isn't really a genre. Lancehot said: It's the pedantic things that weebs get passionate about. Admittedly this is pretty pedant. Battle shounen isn't just shounen with some action. It tends to have a specific battle system that is necessary for the plot - Medabots, ninjas, being a mage, etc.. The action is directly related to these systems, and the characters' lives surround these systems. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: ashfrliebert said: Pfft, do japanese adults really watch K-ON...oh wait.. Well, you are outright wrong. If we want to argue semantics, battle shonen is not a genre. Battle(/action) is a genre, not battle shounen. Shonen is a demographic, and really that's all there is to it. It's a simple concept, it's shounen because it can be better marketed towards teens than adults, that's a demographic. It's in the battle genre, because it focuses on action second to the story. It is a really simple concept, Gansta is marketed towards older males. Because that's what seninen is. You're arguing it has aspects that'll appeal to younger boys, but that group is still not what it's marketed towards. Battle shounen still works as a term though, it's a shounen that focuses primarily on battling. But the term itself...isn't really a genre. Admittedly this is pretty pedant. Battle shounen isn't just shounen with some action. It tends to have a specific battle system that is necessary for the plot - Medabots, ninjas, being a mage, etc.. The action is directly related to these systems, and the characters' lives surround these systems. Medabots and digimon aren't Battle Shounens! Ninjas don't define Battle Shounen -> Basilisk and Azumi are both Seinen series and they are about Ninjas. In reality I would assume there are a lot more Ninjas series in other demographics than Shounen. I can only remember Naruto and Ninku about Ninjas. Mage doesn't either. Like you say the action is directly related to these systems, but that has to do with the ACTION and not the SHOUNEN. Probably what you want to say is that when an author works for the Shounen target audience, they do a lot of things in common with others authors and so it became a characteristic of the current genre-demographic. Though if somebody totally decides to do something different from the norm, it doesn't disqualify him from being a "Battle Shounen", just that he doesn't follows trends. |
XxFinalSusanooXx said: I don't know why dimwits keep classifying Shonen as a Shonen, it's only a demographic not a genre. This is the same for these so-called genres like fantasy, and game. Those are themes not genres. Anyways, what's your opinon about this? Do you think Shonen is a genre? If you do(for some ungodly reason) please provide some good reasons why you think that. Genres are just ways of classifying art based on particular traits. Which is exactly what the word Shonen does when referencing anime. It lets you know immediately the nature of the show you will be watching as well as what its themes are likely to be. also, fantasy is a genre. |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
Amiluhur said: Until majority of manga and anime sites stop putting shounen tag in their "genre" searching, you can't expect some people to instantly get your message. Many anime watchers are casual folks who don't even care what genres the shows they're watching fall into, let alone such little insignificant thing like this so-called "shounen" genre. TheRefractingOne said: Battle Shounen is a genre though. Fairy Tail, Naruto, Hunter x Hunter, and One Piece are all battle shounen. People usually just refer to battle shounen as simply "shounen". Demographics aren't always descriptive enough about a series' content either. Nana is part of the shoujo demographic but clearly it's content is josei, Gangsta is a seinen, but it's content is more shounen-esque and barely comparable to seinen like Monster. |
TheBrainintheJar said: ashfrliebert said: Pfft, do japanese adults really watch K-ON...oh wait.. Well, you are outright wrong. If we want to argue semantics, battle shonen is not a genre. Battle(/action) is a genre, not battle shounen. Shonen is a demographic, and really that's all there is to it. It's a simple concept, it's shounen because it can be better marketed towards teens than adults, that's a demographic. It's in the battle genre, because it focuses on action second to the story. It is a really simple concept, Gansta is marketed towards older males. Because that's what seninen is. You're arguing it has aspects that'll appeal to younger boys, but that group is still not what it's marketed towards. Battle shounen still works as a term though, it's a shounen that focuses primarily on battling. But the term itself...isn't really a genre. Admittedly this is pretty pedant. Battle shounen isn't just shounen with some action. It tends to have a specific battle system that is necessary for the plot - Medabots, ninjas, being a mage, etc.. The action is directly related to these systems, and the characters' lives surround these systems. Things that have battle systems have some action at it's forefront, my point still stands. One Piece has a battle system to it's extent but not to the extent Naruto(kinda) or Hunter X Hunter has. It's simple, eat a devil fruit, gain some sort of power. In the water? Can't swim. Haki? Nullifies those pesky devil fruit powers. But it has battles in almost every arc, and non-battle manga doesn't have 5 or more battles a story arc. You can have a manga based entirely on action with no real, big explanation except FIST HIT HURT and the characters can have literally no personality. It makes for a bad battle manga, but surely a battle manga. Because they are battling. 2. What you explained doesn't make my point invalid, if One Piece in a senien magazine and was "targeted"(it's obviously isn't, smh what am I doing with my life) towards young adults, it'd be a senien battle manga. You can still call what you described "battle manga" but it's not something that's exclusive to shonen obviously. Shonen isn't a genre, is the point of this thread. |
ashfrliebertSep 23, 2015 3:26 PM
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
IntroverTurtle said: sman3579 said: In the grand scheme of things, does your post even matter?I'm sure people will get on my case about this but.... does it really matter? I mean, yeah you can argue that it is a bit ignorant to use a term that is supposed to refer to a demographic as a genre. But in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter that much? lol at how you basically stole what someone else said. Seriously what's with people trying to be smart asses. I'll I'm saying is I don't think it is that big of a deal. xbobx said: sman3579 said: Touche, but really though, this just seems really trivial. Especially for some people to get mad over. As long as people know what type of shows you are talking about isn't that good enough. Arguing about "shonen" being a demographic over a genre type (even though it is) just seems so pretentious. Call me what you want, ignorant, casual, stupid, I don't care; but this just doesn't seem like as big of a deal as some people are making it seem. Occasional mistakes or people accidentally labeling it as a genre does not bother many of us. MAL doesn't help much neither with its stupid tagging system (what the hell is "dementia"?) -there's a lot of suggestions on that other sub-forum asking for changes but nobody seems to care. What really is irritating/tiresome and cross the 'trivial mistake -> annoying ignorance' line are situations where the one making the mistake of labeling it a genre is using exactly this fallacious argument to set up a dumb point. e.g: "the shounen genre is so stupid", "ppl who watch action and shounen anime are dumb", "I'm so mature so I like mature shounen not girly slice-of-life", "the shounen genre is so uninspired, everything is just like naruto" and so on. If you want to criticize something, it's expected from you that at least you'll have a decent prior knowledge in the stuff you're shitting on or at least have decent arguments on it. Shounen, as a demographics, doesn't even have a place in any of these discussions as it's just a indicative of the target market they're aimed for. It's a wide, embracing term that needs careful wording before placed in a sentence. That's why we (me, and people I know) make a big deal of it. Okay, thank you for actually providing some insight as to why some people don't like it. I can understand why this would annoy some people. |
|
TheRefractingOne said: IntroverTurtle said: Have you ever thought that that's because there are no content limits for each demo? You mention Monster, one series, but Monster is clearly not of the seinen demo because it's content is nothing like K-ON, Hidamari Sketch, or A-channel. But according to popular definitions, Monster fits the seinen bill perfectly, whilst K-On, Gangsta, and the like don't. I'm fully aware that shounen, seinen, shoujo, and josei are demographics, not genres, and as such they don't have limits in terms of content, but if one is to use the common definitions for each demographic, my statement makes sense. ashfrliebert said: Well, you are outright wrong. If we want to argue semantics, battle shonen is not a genre. Battle(/action) is a genre, not battle shounen. Shonen is a demographic, and really that's all there is to it. It's a simple concept, it's shounen because it can be better marketed towards teens than adults, that's a demographic. It's in the battle genre, because it focuses on action second to the story. It is a really simple concept, Gansta is marketed towards older males. Because that's what seninen is. You're arguing it has aspects that'll appeal to younger boys, but that group is still not what it's marketed towards. Battle shounen still works as a term though, it's a shounen that focuses primarily on battling. But the term itself...isn't really a genre. I don't really want to argue semantics at all though. I'm just saying that the contents of a demographic don't always fall in line with the popular definitions of a demographic, and thus used examples. And yes, battle shounen is a perfectly acceptable term in describing an anime's contents, and one which accurately describes the core of many different series, so it only makes sense to call it a genre, even if it might not be defined like that by "formal" sources like the magazines they're published in, etc., it's still perfectly acceptable for use in the anime community. Oh, well, that makes sense, yes the term is completely fine...but by definition it just doesn't work entirely as a genre tag, since this thread IS about linguistics and semantics, it's appropriate. Why go into a semantic discussion if you don't want to argue semantics? OP is not entirely right, fantasy isn't a theme-or only a theme. It's a genre of fiction. Harry Potter is fantasy, the lord of the ring is fantasy. If not only the theme, but the setting and plot has fantasy aspects it's of the fantasy genre. |
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
| According to the logic of the people here: Joy = Shounen Masochism = Seinen If I am wrong about this being the opinion of the people who want to classify the demographics as genre, then please feel free to explain what I am wrong about. |
|
Disonata said: It's not like that at all, one's a demographic and the other is a genre.I always thought it was a genre for the longest time. It is considered a demographic, but I think getting so specific is unnecessary. Kind of like defining different types of heavy metal music as metalcore, hardcore, post-hardcore, etc. It's all unnecessary. What is the difference between Metal and Heavy Metal? Who cares. I guess knowing certain things is helpful, but it doesn't define someone as a bigger or casual fan of something in any medium. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
Z4k said: They are not battle shounen.Agafin said: For all intents and purposes, "battle shonen" is a genre. What about Terraformars, Tokyo ghoul and One Punch Man? Should we call those battle shounen too? |
XxFinalSusanooXx said: I don't know why dimwits keep classifying Shonen as a Shonen, it's only a demographic not a genre. This is the same for these so-called genres like fantasy, and game. Those are themes not genres. Anyways, what's your opinon about this? Do you think Shonen is a genre? If you do(for some ungodly reason) please provide some good reasons why you think that. I will tell you why: "Shounen" is a demographic classification, and for that reason can be used as an adjective. "Shonen" = "For pre-teens and teens" = "childish or less mature than seinen". Anime classified as shonen are aimed at young boys (the female is shojo) Maybe in some cases they are not too childish, but as many shonen share the same qualities it can be considered a genre Also "GAME" can be considered a genre because a lot of anime are game themed, and i dont understand why you claim fantasy is not a genre |
 |
megamachine said: XxFinalSusanooXx said: I don't know why dimwits keep classifying Shonen as a Shonen, it's only a demographic not a genre. This is the same for these so-called genres like fantasy, and game. Those are themes not genres. Anyways, what's your opinon about this? Do you think Shonen is a genre? If you do(for some ungodly reason) please provide some good reasons why you think that. I will tell you why: "Shounen" is a demographic classification, and for that reason can be used as an adjective. "Shonen" = "For pre-teens and teens" = "childish or less mature than seinen". Anime classified as shonen are aimed at young boys (the female is shojo) Maybe in some cases they are not too childish, but as many shonen share the same qualities it can be considered a genre This makes it a demographic..not a genre. They share qualities, because they target the same demographic. But they don't have the same topics. Genres are specific usually, drama, romance, tragedy. Just because manga of types follow formuals don't make it the same, that's not what defines genres. Shounen are usually about adventure and friendship and all that jazz. But they range from action(one piece), to sports(slam dunk), to mystery(conan sorta). |
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
Disonata said: I always thought it was a genre for the longest time. It is considered a demographic, but I think getting so specific is unnecessary. Kind of like defining different types of heavy metal music as metalcore, hardcore, post-hardcore, etc. It's all unnecessary. What is the difference between Metal and Heavy Metal? Who cares. I guess knowing certain things is helpful, but it doesn't define someone as a bigger or casual fan of something in any medium. Hardcore, Post-Hardcore and Metalcore are different things. Metalcore combines Heavy Metal melodies with Hardcore riffing and breakdowns. Post-Hardcore is a weirder offshot of Hardcore. It has its energy, but its vocal styles are dynamic and there's more room for experimentation and weird structures. That's why Glassjaw, mclusky, Husker Du and Big Black are all Post-Hardcore. Hardcore is a harder version of punk. These are useful if you need something specific. Moving on, about Battle Shounen: How Medabots and Digimon not similar to Naruto/Fairy Tail/DBZ? Both have a hero's journey thing going on about defeating a Big Bad using a specific battle system. Some have more developed battle systems than others, but still. In regular action, the means of achieving the action doesn't matter. Ordinary action movies got gunfights, fistfights, car chases and other things. Battle Shounen's action is related to these systems. Medabots and Digimon only have action scenes with Digimon and Medabots. Moreover, these systems are more than battle systems. Being a ninja, having a medabot and taming digmon are part of the lifestyle. The plot is related to them. You can't have Medabots without Medabots, obviously. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Grey-Zone said: Shounen is a "Demographic" Action is a "Genre" "Action Shounen" (or as people put it, "Battle Shounen") is an Action type manga (or perhaps also an anime adapted from a manga) that is part of the "shounen"-demographic. That's what it IS. People can make up various fanon and so on, but at the end of the day this is what would considered "academically correct". Well, actually the terms "Action Shounen" and "Battle Shounen" technically don't even exist and are fanon too, but this is the closest to what makes it acceptable as a "composition" between a genre and a demographic. It's an entirely different matter if you say "it is LIKE a(n) Action Shounen/Battle Shounen", because that just describes similarity. There exists a type of anime that is like DBZ, Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Digimon, MAR and a thousand others. Different anime of this type are sufficiently alike that it can be considered a valid (genre) tag of its own. When people talk about "battle shounen", "shounen fighting anime", or "shounen genre" - they refer to this type of anime. Unless you're willing to find a better name for it, and spend a lot of effort to make it stick, it will continue being referred like that. Talking semantics: As long as that definition stands, the term "battle shounen" has meaning different from its parts. Similar to how guinea pigs have no relationship to Guinea and pigs (poor animals are badly named in most languages). |
Grey-Zone said: According to the logic of the people here: Joy = Shounen Masochism = Seinen Good definition! Let's use it to re-classify all the anime on MAL, it will be a lot more useful than definition based on the publishing magazine. |
flannan said: anoo, can you explain what corellation between masochism and seinen?Grey-Zone said: Good definition! Let's use it to re-classify all the anime on MAL, it will be a lot more useful than definition based on the publishing magazine.According to the logic of the people here: Joy = Shounen Masochism = Seinen |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
absentminded said: flannan said: anoo, can you explain what corellation between masochism and seinen?Good definition! Let's use it to re-classify all the anime on MAL, it will be a lot more useful than definition based on the publishing magazine. Among many of the people here who want to classify shounen and seinen as genres instead of demographics, a seinen is a "dark and depressing tragedy where the (obviously relatable) MC suffers a lot and and meets a tragic end" because it's supposedly "mature" that way, hence "Masochism". While a shounen is supposedly "all about battles and power of friendship", hence "joy". Yea no. I'd rather keep the demographis as actual demographics instead of relying on those "obviously correct" subjective opinions about what qualifies as shounen or seinen. |
|
Grey-Zone said: but, but, but, how about CGDCT?absentminded said: Among many of the people here who want to classify shounen and seinen as genres instead of demographics, a seinen is a "dark and depressing tragedy where the (obviously relatable) MC suffers a lot and and meets a tragic end" because it's supposedly "mature" that way, hence "Masochism".anoo, can you explain what corellation between masochism and seinen? While a shounen is supposedly "all about battles and power of friendship", hence "joy". Yea no. I'd rather keep the demographis as actual demographics instead of relying on those "obviously correct" subjective opinions about what qualifies as shounen or seinen. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
absentminded said: Grey-Zone said: but, but, but, how about CGDCT?Among many of the people here who want to classify shounen and seinen as genres instead of demographics, a seinen is a "dark and depressing tragedy where the (obviously relatable) MC suffers a lot and and meets a tragic end" because it's supposedly "mature" that way, hence "Masochism". While a shounen is supposedly "all about battles and power of friendship", hence "joy". Yea no. I'd rather keep the demographis as actual demographics instead of relying on those "obviously correct" subjective opinions about what qualifies as shounen or seinen. Watching such shows borders on masochism too, although for completely different reasons... Anyway, the comparison between "shounen" and "seinen" is similar to the comparison between "animated" and "live action". Just because you watch a live action movie that feel similar to what an anime would, you would not call it something "animated", right? You should also not call something that BY DEFINITION refers to something "published (or based on something published) in a seinen magazine" as a "shounen" just because in you subjective opinion it "feels like" a shounen. There are some people who would call the Kingdom series a "battle shounen" because it has a hot headed protagonist that is continuously getting stronger over time and has lots of battles. But it's published in a seinen magazine, so it IS a seinen. But no... "my subjective opinion is more important than hard cold facts, because LOL! HAHAHAHA!"" |
|
flannan said: Grey-Zone said: Shounen is a "Demographic" Action is a "Genre" "Action Shounen" (or as people put it, "Battle Shounen") is an Action type manga (or perhaps also an anime adapted from a manga) that is part of the "shounen"-demographic. That's what it IS. People can make up various fanon and so on, but at the end of the day this is what would considered "academically correct". Well, actually the terms "Action Shounen" and "Battle Shounen" technically don't even exist and are fanon too, but this is the closest to what makes it acceptable as a "composition" between a genre and a demographic. It's an entirely different matter if you say "it is LIKE a(n) Action Shounen/Battle Shounen", because that just describes similarity. There exists a type of anime that is like DBZ, Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Digimon, MAR and a thousand others. Different anime of this type are sufficiently alike that it can be considered a valid (genre) tag of its own. When people talk about "battle shounen", "shounen fighting anime", or "shounen genre" - they refer to this type of anime. Unless you're willing to find a better name for it, and spend a lot of effort to make it stick, it will continue being referred like that. How about action manga? I understand we're you all are coming from, but if the discussion is about semantics battle shonen is 'still' not a genre by itself. It's like, who cares, but a demographic still doesn't technically describe genre in theory. You say "battle shonen" have systems, but "battle manga" works in that category completely fine because it covers such a wide scope. "Guinea pig" is a common name used for the species of rodent, "battle shonen" is not a common name universally used to a wide extent in Japan, as far as I know. It still doesn't matter though. Sure, battle shonen is more specific but if it's not a very widely used term in comparison to the way "shonen" is in relation to the shonen manga, it's not "official, official" you dig? It's very widely used on MAL though and it's obviously not a negative term by itself, it more or less has pretty much the exact same meaning as "action" ,because shonen seems to be the dominant demographic. So this really shouldn't matter. Don't take what I say as fact, I wasn't raised in Japan, but this is from my understanding of it. ps. "Shounen genre" is hardly ever even used on MAL for "battle manga" inherently, it's used for manga of shounen demographic in general, incorrectly, but still. |
ashfrliebertSep 24, 2015 7:23 PM
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
| As it happens in literature with the classification based on readers age: "young" "adult" etc, shonen is not officially a genre; but It should be because It serves as a hint of the content. Also if most shonen share a characteristic (like lack of : sex, deep character development, more mature reactions/relations between characters) then It should be a genre |
|
megamachine said: okay, shounen is something like doraemon, until violance jack (because AOT, AGK, deadman wonderland and claymore is cute). please, what of corelation between both of them that can make it rellevant to be a certain genre.As it happens in literature with the classification based on readers age: "young" "adult" etc, shonen is not officially a genre; but It should be because It serves as a hint of the content. Also if most shonen share a characteristic (like lack of : sex, deep character development, more mature reactions/relations between characters) then It should be a genre |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Terminology evolves, taking on new meanings that weren't originally planned for it. Gay does not mean stupid or homosexual, retard just means slow, and cat is spelled K-I-T-T-Y, pussy! When enough people agree to the new (and possibly incorrect) use of certain words or phrases, semantics become irrelevant. Just look at MAL's use of "pretentious" it's a phenomenal abuse of the English language. |
 |
Z4k said: Agafin said: For all intents and purposes, "battle shonen" is a genre. What about Terraformars, Tokyo ghoul and One Punch Man? Should we call those battle shounen too? Terraformars might as well be a gag series now, johj roaches too goddamn stronk XD Tokyo ghoul RE isn't good enough to be a battle shounen. OPM regularly appears in shounen magazine so yes. |
 |
megamachine said: As it happens in literature with the classification based on readers age: "young" "adult" etc, shonen is not officially a genre; but It should be because It serves as a hint of the content. Also if most shonen share a characteristic (like lack of : sex, deep character development, more mature reactions/relations between characters) then It should be a genre I agree, the purpose of genre is simply to make finding specific content easier. The target audience that the anime/book/artwork/etc aims to meet will largely shape the content being delivered. Thus it allows for the categorization of said content. Shounen is definitely a broad term but when coupled with other genre tags it makes finding specific content much easier. |
absentminded said: megamachine said: okay, shounen is something like doraemon, until violance jack (because AOT, AGK, deadman wonderland and claymore is cute). please, what of corelation between both of them that can make it rellevant to be a certain genre.As it happens in literature with the classification based on readers age: "young" "adult" etc, shonen is not officially a genre; but It should be because It serves as a hint of the content. Also if most shonen share a characteristic (like lack of : sex, deep character development, more mature reactions/relations between characters) then It should be a genre Jaja, I never said violence wasnt shounen why dont you read what I said. Violence or "darkness for virgin tenagers" is still for shounen. Also the anime you listed are shounen because they are naive |
|
megamachine said: it's not about violance it self. yes all of them are violance, but it's also have what you discribe didn't have in shounen. not violance itself. your shounen characteristic is invalid. becuase shounen and seinen have it as well.absentminded said: Jaja, I never said violence wasnt shounen why dont you read what I said. Violence or "darkness for virgin tenagers" is still for shounen. Also the anime you listed are shounen because they are naiveokay, shounen is something like doraemon, until violance jack (because AOT, AGK, deadman wonderland and claymore is cute). please, what of corelation between both of them that can make it rellevant to be a certain genre. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
absentminded said: megamachine said: it's not about violance it self. yes all of them are violance, but it's also have what you discribe didn't have in shounen. not violance itself. your shounen characteristic is invalid. becuase shounen and seinen have it as well.Jaja, I never said violence wasnt shounen why dont you read what I said. Violence or "darkness for virgin tenagers" is still for shounen. Also the anime you listed are shounen because they are naive The description of shonen on the internet states that is is aimed for children below 14 years old. and that they tend to be serialized in shonen aimed magazines and time schedules for children. It also says they tend to be more censored. Maybe the anime you saw are classified mistakenly as shonen and are seinen. |
|
megamachine said: it's what demographic use. also there are many shounen anime aired late night.absentminded said: The description of shonen on the internet states that is is aimed for children below 14 years old. and that they tend to be serialized in shonen aimed magazines and time schedules for children. It also says they tend to be more censored. Maybe the anime you saw are classified mistakenly as shonen and are seinen.it's not about violance it self. yes all of them are violance, but it's also have what you discribe didn't have in shounen. not violance itself. your shounen characteristic is invalid. becuase shounen and seinen have it as well. shounen is until 18 ,anime is different with manga. anime has ratings, and manga has demographic. both of them only have correlation with content (so yes, shounen are more cencored), but it don't have any correation with quality, or maturity, or even intelegence. just what visible things. also there are ton of exception on both side. that's why i still prefer shounen classified as demographic, since the series targetted and maked using that point of view. but if as genre, i can't see any correlation that can make all shounen classified as certain genre. |
KumaSep 24, 2015 9:17 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
absentminded said: megamachine said: it's what demographic use. also there are many shounen anime aired late night.The description of shonen on the internet states that is is aimed for children below 14 years old. and that they tend to be serialized in shonen aimed magazines and time schedules for children. It also says they tend to be more censored. Maybe the anime you saw are classified mistakenly as shonen and are seinen. shounen is until 18 ,anime is different with manga. anime has ratings, and manga has demographic. both of them only have correlation with content (so yes, shounen are more cencored), but it don't have any correation with quality, or maturity, or even intelegence. just what visible things. also there are ton of exception on both side. that's why i still prefer shounen classified as demographic, since the series targetted and maked using that point of view. but if as genre, i can't see any correlation that can make all shounen classified as certain genre. From dictionary: -Demographic : a specific segment of a population having shared characteristics -Genre: Is any category of literature or other forms of art or entertainment, e.g. music, whether written or spoken, audial or visual, based on some set of stylistic criteria I said It is not a genre but It should, doesn't the classification "for young" informs you that It has "for young" content???. Also it is always accompanied of other tags such as: action, romance, etc |
|
megamachine said: As it happens in literature with the classification based on readers age: "young" "adult" etc, shonen is not officially a genre; but It should be because It serves as a hint of the content. Also if most shonen share a characteristic (like lack of : sex, deep character development, more mature reactions/relations between characters) then It should be a genre you'll find that it's far too diverse and loosely defined to be a genre. Consider that Bakuman, Akame ga Kill and Shigatsu are all shounens. Just because MAL uses those terms as genres in it's database does not make them useful for classifying manga (much less anime) in such a manner. |
More topics from this board
» Would you stop watching anime if character designs stopped being appealing?Dragevard - Yesterday |
38 |
by FMmatron
»»
4 minutes ago |
|
» spoiler free .... the new panty and stocking dub is unbearableMiniChu202 - Jul 16 |
11 |
by DreamingBeats
»»
6 minutes ago |
|
» Do you prefer when a anime takes place in our real world setting or a fantasy like setting?MegaMan1 - 1 hour ago |
5 |
by NS2D
»»
10 minutes ago |
|
» How to love anime more?thewiru - Sep 8 |
47 |
by Zeccrom1678
»»
22 minutes ago |
|
» What is the anime that had the biggest impact on your anime taste?DarkFirefly72 - Sep 8 |
30 |
by Arigatolist
»»
22 minutes ago |