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morrownight said: That's a little misinformed. Western fans pay plenty attention to detail, I personally do. But it's difficult to give a good rating when there's a large gaping hole in the plot. What plot-hole??? |
| Let's go bowling. |
StopDropAndBowl said: morrownight said: That's a little misinformed. Western fans pay plenty attention to detail, I personally do. But it's difficult to give a good rating when there's a large gaping hole in the plot. What plot-hole??? I think he was speaking about anime in general, and not only this one. I don't know about others, but the plot is not the only thing I care about. The atmosphere of Aku no Hana is the only reason why I'm still watching the anime and still consider it to be one of my highlight this season. The thing about details is that they're minor aspect of an anime, so they are some I would pay attention and others I just won't. A nice girl showing good manner is one of those details I wouldn't care about. |
Snschl said: The themes were already there. They didn't need reiterating for an entire episode, especially not with heavy padding and pandering. I was aboard for more of that, and ep. 5 delivered none - it was pure saccharine indulgence. Any "message" it had was so basic ("You don't need to be productive all the time, sometimes you just need to relax!") that it didn't need to take up an entire episode. But that's what you personally think would be better, that they didn't need to spend a whole episode on a message which you clearly get. However the point is not whether how quick and easy the message could be gotten through to the audience. Although everything in this episode maybe seem mundane or trivial to us, it isn't to Ledo. We're pretty much seeing things from Ledo's point of view, therefore it should take a whole episode for him, in which the whole concept of not being productive is completely foreign to him, to understand what having fun is. He needs time to accept it. For the most part of this episode, he kept trying to look for a job, and when Ledo finally gets a "job" from Pinion, he thinks it's something important. It's not until the very end of the episode that he realizes, or begins to understand the concept of having fun. And it's the little things that matter, like his first experience of tasting something "delicious." I personally don't think that if we're trying to understand Ledo's experience from his point of view, the message of this episode could have been executed as well if not for dedicating a whole episode to it. I'm not good with explaining things, but StopDropAndBowl explained it much better than I did here. |
tingyMay 10, 2013 4:53 PM
| (ノಠ_ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ I'm just gonna wait for the next damn episode. |
morrownight said: Well, I do not say every western fan does not pay attention to details. I said "too many" care only for an overarching plot. Do you count yourself as one of them? If not, don't pigeonhole yourself by reflex as one of those western fans I criticize. As for attention to details that western fans could tend to miss, I quote some examples like Amy wiping clean the flute before returning it to Ledo. How many western fans take note of that? It is a major talking point among Japanese fans on the other hand. symbv said: That's a little misinformed. Western fans pay plenty attention to detail, I personally do. But it's difficult to give a good rating when there's a large gaping hole in the plot. It's like a ripped kimono. No matter how beautiful the cloth is, how are you going to sell it if it's unwearable?It seems too many care only for the overarching plot and tend to ignore the small details, which fans in Japan are good at picking up. morrownight said: There is clearly a difference in views of how much fanservice is considered too much between western fans and Japanese fans. As I said, this episode has overwhelmingly positive feedback about this episode, and around half of the comments I read are about something other than the fanservice or sexy character. As I said, Japanese fans see "good balance" in this episode - the fanservice does not seem overdone or time-wasting to them and think it is accompanied with good storytelling and shedding light on characters. To them, the handling in this episode IS well-rounded, it is a shame that some people have to think that just because there is a heavy setting, such a slice-of-life episode with some fanservice must have to be a no-no. Fanservice. There is nothing to dislike about it, aside from the fact that it takes up time in the anime. With such a heavy setting, the inclusion of fanservice means sacrificing time that could have been used to create a more well-rounded story, to tighten the seams, or at least connect the ends. morrownight said: THe typical western reaction from western fan it seems, as these people cannot see anything in this episode deeper than it is a "swimsuit episode". To be honest, I am actually pleasantly surprised that fans in Japan see much more than that, even while enjoying the fanservice in the episode. (28歳 男性 アメリカ(カリフォルニア州) 水着回が見たければ、1000万本は流通してるハーレムアニメでも見る。 13話しかないのに、水着回をやって大丈夫なのかが疑問だ。 http://blog.livedoor.jp/kaigai_no/archives/27592192.html morrownight said: They do care about the story, which is why this episode gets such a wide and universal praise. As I said, they find the handling of the characters and the story of how they interact to let us know more about them perfectly done. It is not that they do not care about the story - it is just that it is not how you think they should care about the story.And I find it hard to believe that viewers in Japan don't care about the story. EDIT: Read StopDropAndBowl's post ( http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=596095&show=280#msg21943119 ) and I think he nails the significance and the achievement of this episode pretty well. I especially agree with him that "I see fan-service, but not useless fan-service. It actually does serve a point to develop the character" and that "It's almost as if the development was too subtle for people to realize what's going on, but that actually isn't it either; it's just a knee-jerk rejection of "fan-service" without considering anything else." And I just want to repeat unlike many western fans, many fans in Japan seem to believe that enjoyable fanservice can happily co-exist with good story and character development - the two are not to the mutual exclusion of each other, and they think they've found it in this episode. Instead of "looking past the horror of bikinis", they see a well-rounded coverage of all bases so that there are titillating bikinis but yet do not feel out of place and at the expense of telling a story and developing characters, a best of both worlds result so to speak, and for them they credit the director and screenplay. |
symbvMay 10, 2013 9:21 PM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
eRe4s3r said: ImagineThat said: eRe4s3r said: Standard fan service filler episode.... meh It broke tone, rating goes down ;) How so? How was this episode any different in terms of Ledo trying to find a place and comprehend his new surroundings. Even with the skirmishes in past episodes, the Anime has still been quite light in tone which if i were to guess, as with all anime of this nature goes, will not last for long. Well by introducing illogical behavior of all characters of course ^^ I think I agree with what someone else said, they overdid the intro episode raising the wrong expectations there, to me the first few episodes (including the flashback in Ep4) were a different tone than a bathsuit filler episode with transvestites and ledo nearly dying (now they also introduce wonky anime physics by a small frail girl catching someone who is falling to his death from a .... what.. sprinkler tower? That's not how physics work ;) I guess the series just is a slice of life series with a weird tone.. not sure I will stay with it to the end.. but hey.. we'll see what ep 6 does Well so far, despite living in slums, the inhabitants of Gargantia have been portrayed to be a close knit community who mostly seem to have a positive outlook on life. Ledo went from intuitively relying on his survival/military instincts when finding himself in a foreign environment to trying to understand more about this society's way of life as well as reflecting on himself. So i'm interested, if you are willing to elaborate in what ways did the characters behave illogically in comparison to previous episodes? This Anime for a large part is essentially "Life on Gargantia". We've seen how they work but somehow for great number of viewers it was ludicrous to see how they play. I agree with what the likes StopDropAndBowl and symbv have stated above, feel free to dislike the episode but wading through the weight of arguments against, it seems more like a typical knee jerk to fanservice than anything else. |
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symbv said: Well, I do not say every western fan does not pay attention to details. I said "too many" care only for an overarching plot. Do you count yourself as one of them? If not, don't pigeonhole yourself by reflex as one of those western fans I criticize. As for attention to details that western fans could tend to miss, I quote some examples like Amy wiping clean the flute before returning it to Ledo. How many western fans take note of that? It is a major talking point among Japanese fans on the other hand... To them, the handling in this episode IS well-rounded, it is a shame that some people have to think that just because there is a heavy setting, such a slice-of-life episode with some fanservice must have to be a no-no... To be honest, I am actually pleasantly surprised that fans in Japan see much more than that, even while enjoying the fanservice in the episode... It is not that they do not care about the story - it is just that it is not how you think they should care about the story... Instead of "looking past the horror of bikinis", they see a well-rounded coverage of all bases so that there are titillating bikinis but yet do not feel out of place and at the expense of telling a story and developing characters, a best of both worlds result so to speak, and for them they credit the director and screenplay. あんた好意的な感想しか許されないのか？ たとえ日本人の見方だとしても、そこまで言う必要ないだろう？I think you're going too far with the cultural labeling. I am not pigeonholing myself on reflex. Western fans might not have noticed Amy wiping the flute, but many of them have noticed a lot of other small details that I doubt even Japanese fans have (here are some examples: http://notredrevie.ws/2013/04/29/suisei-no-gargantia-04-notes-and-the-like/) I'm not going to list everything else out and write out another wall of text, as nobody seems to like reading those (my 1st post on page 16). Again. It's not the fanservice that's turning me off. Subtle character development, little details that reflect more about the setting and the characters are GREAT. It's what distinguishes the 9's from the 10's. But they're just ICING ON THE CAKE! You gotta have a cake first before you put the icing on, right??? Right now it's like we only got to the batter and we're already adding the sprinkles!! わかるかな？？火事の後の釘拾いだ！ |
tealcactusMay 11, 2013 4:13 AM
morrownight said: ... Have you forgotten something? This show is an anime and it was made mainly for Japanese people, and their culture. And you know what? The writer, animators, series composition, director are all JAPANESE. Yeap they delivered their works for their people so no one can understand Japanese cultures and little details better rather than its people. Western fans might not have noticed Amy wiping the flute, but many of them have noticed a lot of other small details that I doubt even Japanese fans have Nope. I doubt that. This is where your part is wrong. |
Takana_no_HanaMay 11, 2013 3:40 AM
Takana_no_Hana said: Nope. I doubt that. This is where your part is wrong. Did you click on my link? If you search in a lot of Japanese forums on Gargantia, you'll notice that most Japanese fans only started paying attention to the Gargantian language after they saw people on foreign blogs post decoding charts. http://jin115.com/archives/51947519.html - アニメ『翠星のガルガンティア』独自言語を外人が解読！ http://blog.livedoor.jp/nizigami/archives/26559572.html - 【翠星のガルガンティア】外人がアニメの中にでてくる文字を解読！ http://blog.livedoor.jp/kaigai_no/archives/26715716.html http://animan.doorblog.jp/archives/26583448.html Foreign fans were more keen on doing cryptanalysis than Japanese fans. What's more, most of the language, once decoded, comes out as English (as well as some Portuguese etc.). I won't call this a definitive example, but you need to realize that anime viewership has been spreading beyond Japan's borders for a long time, and the producers know that. |
tealcactusMay 11, 2013 4:57 AM
morrownight said: Nope, it is not that I want only favorable opinion, but I just want to see people able to view an anime in broader perspective and also take in views from other people and be able to ask himself whether only his point of view is the only valid approach to appreciate an anime. As for cultural labeling, it goes back to what I said at the beginning. If the feedback is so overwhelmingly positive among Japanese fans and much less positive among western fans, then wouldn't it be reasonable to ask what could be the reason behind such different opinions?? And wouldn't it be reasonable to think that perhaps cultural factor is a very major factor here?? あんた好意的な感想しか許されないのか？ たとえ日本人の見方だとしても、そこまで言う必要ないだろう？I think you're going too far with the cultural labeling. morrownight said: Well, that article basically confirms what many, be it fans of Japan or overseas, know western fans are particularly good at picking up: The technical details like what are the text written etc. Westerns fans have a reputation of loving complex settings with tons of details (which arguably make the western comics too verbose to those who are accustomed to manga). That article about the "small details" is no exception. I would rather be more interested to see if there are westerns fans who spend time more on finding out the carefully planted details to shed light on characters -- but then I am sure there are western fans who are able to do this as I need not look further than this thread to see at least one, StopDropAndBowl, who can see more of such details than many western fans are apparently able to do. I am not pigeonholing myself on reflex. Western fans might not have noticed Amy wiping the flute, but many of them have noticed a lot of other small details that I doubt even Japanese fans have (here are some examples: http://notredrevie.ws/2013/04/29/suisei-no-gargantia-04-notes-and-the-like/) I'm not going to list everything else out and write out another wall of text, as nobody seems to like reading those (my 1st post on page 16). morrownight said: Well, you are talking like this only because you cannot accept this is an episode that is worth a 9 or 10 (not that I like to rate or give a score to a show but from the feedback I read in Japanese forum this episode is one case where such evaluation is widespread). The bottom line is, to many THE CAKE is already there; to you it is not. That's it. BTW, I am not sure what you try to say by putting that Japanese idiom "Kaji no ato no Kuji hiroi" there. As far as I can see, its usage is mainly about usage of money (saving money on small things is no use if you waste a lot of money). Anyway...Again. It's not the fanservice that's turning me off. Subtle character development, little details that reflect more about the setting and the characters are GREAT. It's what distinguishes the 9's from the 10's. But they're just ICING ON THE CAKE! You gotta have a cake first before you put the icing on, right??? Right now it's like we only got to the batter and we're already adding the sprinkles!! わかるかな？？火事の後の釘拾いだ！ |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
morrownight said: Yeah, but after what happened to Madoka, they more or less expect technical-details loving westerners would do it. But at least I see more effort being spent in decoding the Isla Esta speech in Hataruku Maou-sama among Japanese fans than westerners. Did you click on my link? If you search in a lot of Japanese forums on Gargantia, you'll notice that most Japanese fans only started paying attention to the Gargantian language after they saw people on foreign blogs post decoding charts. morrownight said: They know it but they don't really do anything about it, which means they do not really take into account the overseas viewers when they make an anime. Anything we see in an anime it can be assumed that it is there for the Japanese consumers.I won't call this a definitive example, but you need to realize that anime viewership has been spreading beyond Japan's borders for a long time, and the producers know that. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: They know it but they don't really do anything about it, which means they do not really take into account the overseas viewers when they make an anime. Anything we see in an anime it can be assumed that it is there for the Japanese consumers. I second that, overall it's Japanese consumers who gonna pay for the works, they hardly care about western audiences or any places on the world outside Japan. Then there's a reason why shows like Suisei are still being made(its not the first of its kind btw), people still willing to buy and watch it, well, mostly Japanese. |
Takana_no_HanaMay 11, 2013 5:22 AM
symbv said: BTW, I am not sure what you try to say by putting that Japanese idiom "Kaji no ato no Kuji hiroi" there. As far as I can see, its usage is mainly about usage of money (saving money on small things is no use if you waste a lot of money). Anyway... If you put it in the context of writing a story, what I mean is putting effort into small details is no use if you haven't established the big picture. In other words, trying to add value by adding details cannot make up for the loss in value from a lack of story. But anyways, the origin of this debate was the complaint over false advertising, not the supposed idea that most foreigners prefer technically detailed action and mecha over SOL while Japanese fans are the opposite. These details you say Japanese fans are more sensitive to, are more properly placed in a SOL anime. I hope there's at least one thing we can agree on: action/mecha and SOL do not mix. Basically, we were showed a picture of a cake, and got apple pie instead. Why were western fans generally disappointed? Because anyone who watched the first episode had reason to believe that the anime would continue as a mecha/action anime, and THUS they paid attention to those details. With the direction the anime is taking now, no one is expecting that anymore. It's very off-putting, and the people who plan to continue watching will either bear with that disappointment and continue watching the series as a SOL anime, or convince themselves that it wasn't mecha or action at all in the first place. And I'm sure you'll find more viewers like StopDropAndBowl commenting in these Gargantia forums from this episode on. |
tealcactusMay 11, 2013 5:50 AM
morrownight said: I am not sure this is how the idiom is used. At least I have not encountered such usage myself. Anyway what you said above is not a problem I see with Gargantia. If you put it in the context of writing a story, what I mean is putting effort into small details is no use if you haven't established the big picture. In other words, trying to add value by adding details cannot make up for the loss in value from a lack of story. morrownight said: I don't know what kind of debate you were engaging in. As I said clearly in my first post, I did not read the many pages of discussion in this thread and I wrote my post (more like copy-and-paste from what I wrote elsewhere) is to add my voice in the discussion about this episode. I have no knowledge about nor intention to join whatever debate about "false advertising" you guys already had. I made my point about preference of westerners (mind you, if you say foreigners you are just equating foreigners as westerners while I know many Asian viewers hold view and preference closer to Japanese than western fans) versus Japanese as some separate entry in the broad discussion about this episode. It seems you just assume that I wrote this in reaction to what you wrote or your view while in fact I have not even read any of your post when I put in my post. But anyways, the origin of this debate was the complaint over false advertising, not the supposed idea that most foreigners prefer technically detailed action and mecha over SOL while Japanese fans are the opposite. These details you say Japanese fans are more sensitive to, are more properly placed in a SOL anime. I hope there's at least one thing we can agree on: action/mecha and SOL do not mix. By the way I do not agree with you: action/mecha and SOL can mix. At least this seems to be what a lot of fans in Japan are thinking too. To call it that there is no way the two can mix just sounds dogmatic. morrownight said: I remember I saw another western fan earlier in ep.3 and I told him that he was just expecting something that is not what the show is about anyway, and he just could not show the broadmindedness to accept that he could have made the wrong expectation and to allow adjustment in his expectation. And this is the same thing I am telling you now. Basically in interview after interview of the production staff it is disclosed that the anime is to bring a message to the young people in Japan that are finding it hard to blend in a society as they start seeking job or start to work. Many Japanese fans have long adjusted their expectation to view this as an anime about cultural exchanges and interactions as well as the MC trying to assimilate himself into an unfamiliar society. So for them ep.4 and ep.5 just prove what the anime staff have been saying all along, and so the cake is really there. There is no complaint about "false advertising" and anyway even for those who did not know the interviews they considered the development a good case of "false advertising". And sadly many westerners seem to want to draw their own conclusion and not even try to consider that their way of thinking may not be the best way to approach the anime. And they would not even take into account the cultural difference like how much SoL or fanservice is considered too much. This is why so many westerns fans seem to be disappointed, and this is not the first time such misconception and misdirected approach has happened.Basically, we were showed a picture of a cake, and got apple pie instead. Why were western fans generally disappointed? Because anyone who watched the first episode had reason to believe that the anime would continue as a mecha/action anime, and THUS they paid attention to those details. |
symbvMay 11, 2013 6:01 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
morrownight said: If you put it in the context of writing a story, what I mean is putting effort into small details is no use if you haven't established the big picture. In other words, trying to add value by adding details cannot make up for the loss in value from a lack of story. Lack of story? I guess the concept of story varies from people to people. You're different to me. But anyways, the origin of this debate was the complaint over false advertising, not the supposed idea that most foreigners prefer technically detailed action and mecha over SOL while Japanese fans are the opposite. These details you say Japanese fans are more sensitive to, are more properly placed in a SOL anime. I hope there's at least one thing we can agree on: action/mecha and SOL do not mix. This proves that lots of western fans only randomly selecting/picking a show after it's aired. Thus, "misconception". Have you ever tried reading the description/information of ANY SHOWS before it's aired? I guess not. This is WHAT people should be expecting: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/anime-spotlight/2013/spring/gargantia It's very off-putting, and the people who plan to continue watching will either bear with that disappointment and continue watching the series as a SOL anime, or convince themselves that it wasn't mecha or action at all in the first place. This WASN"T in the first place. Glad that it took you this long to finally notice this. from the director said: As director, my goal is to depict a world that makes people want to go there, want to live there, and to show the growth of Ledo a young foreigner who wanders into this world. He's a child soldier who's only way of life has been fighting at the ends of the galaxy, but I wonder what choice he'll make when he meets people who can enjoy life away from land? I hope to let everyone experience a world that makes them wish they could live together with these charming characters, and that's what I'm looking forward to most right now. From Gen said: From the moment this anime was in its planning stages, one of the themes I set for it was to incorporate a message for our young people in their late teens and early twenties—in other words, those are just about to enter society, or those who have just entered society and feel lost at sea. I made a point to keep this theme in mind as I composed the story, so it has a different flavor from the many other works I've created in the past. I hope that this work will act as encouragement for all of those who are being forced to struggle hard in the harsh climate of our frozen job market. And after the show has been airing for a while: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2013-05-06/interview-kazuya-murata-director-of-gargantia-on-the-verdurous-planet |
Takana_no_HanaMay 11, 2013 6:32 AM
symbv said: By the way I do not agree with you: action/mecha and SOL can mix. At least this seems to be what a lot of fans in Japan are thinking too. To call it that there is no way the two can mix just sounds dogmatic. In chemistry, this would be the difference between a mixture and a solution. It might work if the two were integrated into each other, but it doesn't work if you just slap them together, like it's starting to appear in Gargantia (read, 戦闘兵器→グリル). I agree Japanese people and Westerners have different sensibilities, but that's not an excuse for blaming Western fans for being closed-minded. Maybe if more Western fans had access to the interviews, there would be less people turned off from the series, or rather, it would attract an entirely different group of viewers. However even many Japanese fans, as you just said, had to "adjust their expectations" after the anime staff made an announcement, which is proof that the first episode was false advertising. Of course, it's not like they committed some unforgiveable error. They were kind enough to notify the fans about their change in plans for the plot. Bearing this in mind, however, shouldn't they have expected an adverse reaction from abroad? But instead of being understanding, Japanese fans are misunderstanding many Western fans for being blind to details and only attentive to the fact that it was a beach episode. |
tealcactusMay 11, 2013 6:46 AM
Takana_no_Hana said: This proves that lots of western fans only randomly selecting/picking a show after it's aired. Thus, "misconception". This is true and I have nothing against it. But not reading up on interviews and introductions before a show airs, still does not equal blind-to-details and sexually-frustrated. This WASN"T in the first place. Glad that it took you this long to finally notice this. As I've said earlier, I'm speaking as someone who did not read those interviews (hell I didn't even KNOW there were interviews) before I started watching, but even so I noticed the trend by episode 3 at the latest. No matter what you produce, anime, movies, whatnot, how can you deny the fact that there will be people who watch without reading up on a detailed synopsis or sneakpeak beforehand? In fact, there are some people who don't want to read about such detail, and only settle for the most basic of hints as to what it is about before watching. This leads me to conclude, however, that the ratio of casual anime watchers to serious anime fans in the West is higher than it is in Japan. |
tealcactusMay 11, 2013 6:54 AM
morrownight said: In chemistry, there is a difference between a mixture and a solution but we are talking about a work of fiction here and I think the belief that two elements will never work together is just narrow-mindedness. As I said before, the mix may not work for you but clearly it works for many fans in Japan. Again this comes down to different standards of how much SoL is considered too much. In chemistry, this would be the difference between a mixture and a solution. It might work if the two were integrated into each other, but it doesn't work if you just slap them together, like it's starting to appear in Gargantia (read, 戦闘兵器→グリル). morrownight said: As I said, the anime is made almost entirely with Japanese consumers in mind, and if we see very favorable feedback among them I think it is only valid to question ourselves that if we do not find it that great, does it have something to do with our standard which may be different from that of Japanese fans? And if a western fan would not even consider this before they jump to rubbish the show, then I would call such fan close-minded. I agree Japanese people and Westerners have different sensibilities, but that's not an excuse for blaming Western fans for being closed-minded. morrownight said: And "adjust expectation" is something that fans in Japan always do and they do not really consider it a bad thing. In Gargantia's case it is not even "false advertising" because the theme of the anime is made clear in interviews at the beginning. A real "false advertising" is something that happened in Madoka, but as we all know fans in Japan did not hold it against the anime, they had their shock and then adjusted their expectation afterwards. The rest is history. However even many Japanese fans, as you just said, had to "adjust their expectations" after the anime staff made an announcement, which is proof that the first episode was false advertising. morrownight said: Why should they have any expectation about reactions from aboard? Why should they care? I would even venture to say that the production staff did not know much about reactions from aboard and they would not even bother to find out. There is little interest and motivation to do so. As for "Japanese fans are misunderstanding many Western fans for being blind to details and only attentive to the fact that it was a filler beach episode" I don't know how you got such ideas. Did I say the Japanese fans are saying western fans are "blind to details and only reacting negatively to the fanservice in the episode"? In fact I doubt how many Japanese fans care about what western fans think about this episode, much less criticizing them for "being blind to details" (even though in my opinion too many western fans indeed are).however, shouldn't they have expected an adverse reaction from abroad? But instead of being understanding, Japanese fans are misunderstanding many Western fans for being blind to details and only attentive to the fact that it was a filler beach episode. |
symbvMay 11, 2013 7:04 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
morrownight said: This is true and I have nothing against it. But not reading up on interviews and introductions before a show airs, still does not equal blind-to-details and sexually-frustrated. As I've said earlier, I'm speaking as someone who did not read those interviews (hell I didn't even KNOW there were interviews) before I started watching, but even so I noticed the trend by episode 3 at the latest. No matter what you produce, anime, movies, whatnot, how can you deny the fact that there will be people who watch without reading up on a detailed synopsis or sneakpeak beforehand? In fact, there are some people who don't want to read about such detail, and only settle for the most basic of hints as to what it is about before watching. This leads me to conclude, however, that the ratio of casual anime watchers to serious anime fans in the West is higher than it is in Japan. It's like buying a product without looking at its brand/ingredients/where was it made and such. How about hey, this one looks like an iron but it is, in fact, a vacuum cleaner as it is written on the box but no one cares to look at it. They only look at the cover. "Don't judge a book by its cover", ever heard of that? It's the same with every kind of works, not just the book itself. Such details are for those who truly interests about the show. And for those who don't want to read "such details", means they pick it on a whim, feel free to drop/keep watching according to their tase. |
morrownight said: In this case there is not even any case of "false advertising" to complain about. Those people do not even read the marketing material like interviews or synopsis then they only form their expectation by what they catch from actually watching the first episode. Where is the "advertising" then? The actual footage in the first episode? This is no "false advertising" but more the person forming idea about a show prematurely and then refusing to adjust it later when the main theme of the show is made clear in later episodes.[ No matter what you produce, anime, movies, whatnot, how can you deny the fact that there will be people who watch without reading up on a detailed synopsis or sneakpeak beforehand? In fact, there are some people who don't want to read about such detail, and only settle for the most basic of hints as to what it is about before watching. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: In chemistry, there is a difference between a mixture and a solution but we are talking about a work of fiction here and I think the belief that two elements will never work together is just narrow-mindedness. There is no narrow-mindedness involved. It's just that we have differing opinions on the technical definitions of polymerizing two genres. symbv said: As I said, the anime is made almost entirely with Japanese consumers in mind, and if we see very favorable feedback among them I think it is only valid to question ourselves that if we do not find it that great does it have something to do with our standard which may be different from that of Japanese fans? And if a western fan would not even consider this before they jump to rubbish the show, then I would call such fan close-minded. If you pull out an example of a pure SoL show and compare the Japanese and Western reactions, I'm sure you'll find a gap. But NOT a gap of this size, as we can see in Gargantia. The reason the gap is so large this time is not due to differing sensibilities, but a lack of information and an overdone first episode. symbv said: A real "false advertising" is something that happened in Madoka, but as we all know fans in Japan did not hold it against the anime, they had their shock and then adjusted their expectation afterwards. The rest is history. Madoka Magica is a whole different story. What happened in Madoka was a "plot twist". It was not a misjudgment of genre. These are two completely different things. symbv said: Why should they have any expectation about reactions from aboard? Why should they care? I would even venture to say that the production staff did not know much about reactions from aboard and they would not even bother to find out. There is little interest and motivation to do so. As for "Japanese fans are misunderstanding many Western fans for being blind to details and only attentive to the fact that it was a filler beach episode" I don't know how you got such ideas. Did I say the Japanese fans are misunderstanding western fans? In fact I doubt how many Japanese fans care about what western fans think about this episode, much less criticizing them for "being blind to details" (even though in my opinion too many western fans indeed are). Then why, may I ask, are you on this forum, trying to convince Western fans that they're a bunch of insensitive action junkies who don't know how to appreciate anime? And why, perhaps, would there be a blog dedicated to foreign opinions on Gargantia? http://hannoumatome.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-112.html |
tealcactusMay 11, 2013 7:18 AM
morrownight said: Then why, may I ask, are you on this forum, trying to convince Western fans that they're a bunch of insensitive action junkies who don't know how to appreciate anime? And why, perhaps, would there be a blog dedicated to foreign opinions on Gargantia? http://hannoumatome.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-112.html As a matter of fact, our opinions do not effect much on the sales of Gargantia(or Japanese people, or how good/bad is the show). But I do like to be on forum, read what people think about the show. |
symbv said: morrownight said: In this case there is not even any case of "false advertising" to complain about. Those people do not even read the marketing material like interviews or synopsis then they only form their expectation by what they catch from actually watching the first episode. Where is the "advertising" then? The actual footage in the first episode? This is no "false advertising" but more the person forming idea about a show prematurely and then refusing to adjust it later when the main theme of the show is made clear in later episodes.[ No matter what you produce, anime, movies, whatnot, how can you deny the fact that there will be people who watch without reading up on a detailed synopsis or sneakpeak beforehand? In fact, there are some people who don't want to read about such detail, and only settle for the most basic of hints as to what it is about before watching. 違和感です。 It feels disconnected. They put so much effort into detailing the space setting, that you wonder how they can just throw it away. Now it feels like episode 1 didn't even happen. |
morrownight said: symbv said: morrownight said: In this case there is not even any case of "false advertising" to complain about. Those people do not even read the marketing material like interviews or synopsis then they only form their expectation by what they catch from actually watching the first episode. Where is the "advertising" then? The actual footage in the first episode? This is no "false advertising" but more the person forming idea about a show prematurely and then refusing to adjust it later when the main theme of the show is made clear in later episodes.[ No matter what you produce, anime, movies, whatnot, how can you deny the fact that there will be people who watch without reading up on a detailed synopsis or sneakpeak beforehand? In fact, there are some people who don't want to read about such detail, and only settle for the most basic of hints as to what it is about before watching. 違和感です。 It feels disconnected. They put so much effort into detailing the space setting, that you wonder how they can just throw it away. Now it feels like episode 1 didn't even happen. So how about Hataraku Maou-sama? They put every epic action scenes and details in the first episode, then it turns out to be some kind of comedy setting, did they throw it all away? I don't think so. |
morrownight said: Well, you are asserting the two elements could never mix well together. This is a dogmatic approach in writing. It sounds like narrow-mindedness to me. There is no narrow-mindedness involved. It's just that we have differing opinions on the technical definitions of polymerizing two genres. morrownight said: The gap is large because the differing sensibilities are aggravated in one side by the misconceived expectation that this is a "serious show" (as if serious show cannot have SoL elements) about fighting aliens, and boosted on the other side by what they consider as an uncommon case of a perfect blend of story and character development and SoL/fanservice elements. The whole thing shows clearly the different sensibilities coming into a big clash because what happens in this episode in this show is something that does not happen often which also showcases the very different approaches taken by Japanese and western fans for such handling. If you pull out an example of a pure SoL show and compare the Japanese and Western reactions, I'm sure you'll find a gap. But NOT a gap of this size, as we can see in Gargantia. The reason the gap is so large this time is not due to differing sensibilities, but a lack of information and an overdone setting. morrownight said: No, we are talking about "false advertising", right? What happens in Madoka IS "false advertising". So we are talking about the same thing here. Besides, what misjudgement of genre do we have here? It is still sci-fi. It is still a robot show. And if you mean by "genre" as the SoL elements that is unexpected, then it is also true in Madoka, the dark grimness is also not there until a few episodes later, so for those who picks up the show they would have misjudged what the show is about and they would not even be helped by reading the interviews (unlike in Gargantia's case). Madoka Magica is a whole different story. What happened in Madoka was a "plot twist". It was not a misjudgment of genre. These are two completely different things. morrownight said: So you think I am Japanese, huh? Then why, may I ask, are you on this forum, trying to convince Western fans that they're a bunch of insensitive action junkies who don't know how to appreciate anime? Also, you are twisting as well as generalizing and then put words in my mouth. Where did I say all westerns fans are a bunch of insensitive action junkies? I only said that there are many western fans who failed to appreciate this episode the way Japanese fans do, and criticizes it because they see it as just a SoL or a fanservice episode that serves no other purpose. And I consider this an unfortunate loss for them. morrownight said: There are a few of them, in fact. But mind what I said "I doubt how many Japanese fans care about what western fans think about this episode". I am not saying that there are no Japanese who wants to know, but in terms of frequency of overseas opinions being mentioned in Japanese forums and anime blogs, I do not see much attention paid towards foreign opinions. Besides as Takana_no_Hana said, the curiosity factor is most likely to be the key motivation. But will they care or mind? I doubt it. And why, perhaps, would there be a blog dedicated to foreign opinions on Gargantia? http://hannoumatome.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-112.html |
symbvMay 11, 2013 7:40 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
morrownight said: As if a show about a young person trying to learn about another culture in a faraway planet cannot put effort in the space setting.違和感です。 It feels disconnected. They put so much effort into detailing the space setting, that you wonder how they can just throw it away. Now it feels like episode 1 didn't even happen. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: morrownight said: As if a show about a young person trying to learn about another culture in a faraway planet cannot put effort in the space setting.違和感です。 It feels disconnected. They put so much effort into detailing the space setting, that you wonder how they can just throw it away. Now it feels like episode 1 didn't even happen. On the other hand, I think it's the space setting that portrays what Ledo truly lives for(well, he's a real soldier). It's a world where everyone has to fight. The weak has no place to stay and there's not a single moment they can consider themselves as being leisure, unlike Gargantia. It fits perfectly with the given theme, especially when you compare the two world together. What if they took the space setting away? We have nothing to compare or understand what was the world where Ledo used to live, or how is it different with the current Gargantia world, beside hearing it from Ledo's mouth. And I think it's gonna lack of an impact. -given the space setting, we actually SAW what he was born for- |
Takana_no_HanaMay 11, 2013 8:00 AM
symbv said: Well, you are asserting the two elements could never mix well together. This is a dogmatic approach in writing. It sounds like narrow-mindedness to me. Are we seriously nitpicking this? Why do you want to degrade me so badly? Let me put this in simpler words: I am not saying that putting the two together is impossible. By saying that "they do not mix", I meant that the two are not generally found together, and that it is very difficult to mesh them together successfully. And Gargantia has not achieved that. symbv said: The gap is large because the differing sensibilities are aggravated in one side by the misconceived expectation that this is a "serious show" (as if serious show cannot have SoL elements) and boosted on the other side by what they consider as a rare case of a perfect blend of story and character development and SoL/fanservice elements. The whole thing shows clearly the different sensibilities coming into a big clash because what happens in this episode in this show is something that does not happen often which also showcases the very different approaches taken by Japanese and western fans for such handling. もう分けわかんないです。The difference in reaction has nothing to do with seriousness, it has to do with the plot. That's what we were arguing about the whole time, isn't it? Unless you're telling me episode 1 was comedic? symbv said: No, we are talking about "false advertising", right? What happens in Madoka IS "false advertising". So we are talking about the same thing here. Besides, what misjudgement of genre do we have here? It is still sci-fi. It is still a robot show. And if you mean by "genre" as the SoL elements that is unexpected, then it is also true in Madoka, the dark grimness is also not there until a few episodes later, so for those who picks up the show would have misjudged what the show is about and they would not even be helped by reading the interviews (unlike in Gargantia's case). You still call this a robot show? Are you serious? The robot is serving as a grill and has devolved into a "moe character". Oh, man! I love watching that oversized talking scrap metal carry boxes around! So much action! The "grimness" in Madoka changes the direction of the plot, which means whatever happened before was actually RELEVANT to what happened later. At this point, the significance of the Alliance and the Hideauze has already practically dropped to zero. symbv said: So you think I am Japanese, huh? もしそうでなければ、失礼でした。ただ、あなたの英語は少し日本人っぽいし、日本語もわかるようだし、そして日本にいるそうだし。。。 で、どこの出身？ Takana_no_Hana said: So how about Hataraku Maou-sama? They put every epic action scenes and details in the first episode, then it turns out to be some kind of comedy setting, did they throw it all away? I don't think so. Come on, you KNOW they're different. How long did that opening last, like 4 minutes? Plus, the whole anime is comedy to begin with. It fit in well as a brief introduction to the characters and their situation. Gargantia? Fully fleshed out space setting with side story of human struggle against a mortal enemy, for a full episode. |
morrownight said: . It fit in well as a brief introduction to the characters and their situation. Gargantia? Fully fleshed out space setting with side story of human struggle against a mortal enemy, for a full episode. The full space setting you said was just the first half of the first episode for like 8-10 minutes. And after that? It was what it is right now. Hell, I don't even see space on the front cover of the anime. |
Takana_no_HanaMay 11, 2013 8:35 AM
morrownight said: When you said "I hope there's at least one thing we can agree on: action/mecha and SOL do not mix." my understanding is that you are saying the two are not to mix together, which is further confirmed (to me) by your analogy of mixture and solution in chemistry. If you are saying that SoL and mecha can only be mixture and not solution, then I would disagree. If you are saying only that SoL and mecha are not usually found mixed together, then I would agree to a certain extent. And of course I do not agree that Gargantia has not achieved meshing the two together successfully (at least as far as we can see in the series). Are we seriously nitpicking this? Why do you want to degrade me so badly? Let me put this in simpler words: I am not saying that putting the two together is impossible. By saying that "they do not mix", I meant that the two are not generally found together, and that it is very difficult to mesh them together successfully. And Gargantia has not achieved that. morrownight said: I don't know why you have to bring up ep.1 here. I was following up with your mention of the big gap of opinions for episode FIVE. What does it have to do with ep.1 being comedic or not?? What I have been saying has been consistent: Ep.5 is viewed with very different approach by Japanese fans and western fans in general, and one reason of the big gap of opinions is how many western fans formed an idea that it is a serious show about fighting aliens while it is quite clear from interviews and synopsis information that the main theme is about something else. And if western fans cannot accept that their forming of idea based only on watching ep.1 without reading any advertisement material can be premature, and cannot accept SoL elements can be good to develop story and characters true to the theme of the anime, then they are going to be disappointed. But this is not really a problem for the show itself, as it clearly succeeds in conveying the theme to its actual target, the Japanese consumers, and does it while entertaining them. もう分けわかんないです。The difference in reaction has nothing to do with seriousness, it has to do with the plot. That's what we were arguing about the whole time, isn't it? Unless you're telling me episode 1 was comedic? morrownight said: Yes, it is still a robot show, seriously. And we are going to see more robots, judging from the advertisement material on character settings. Chamber may be a grill and very moe in this episode, but that does not change the fact that it is still a robot. Why should one call a show a robot show only if the robot is fighting? And indeed many find it refreshing to see an oversized talking crap metal carry boxes around. That is STILL a robot show. You still call this a robot show? Are you serious? The robot is serving as a grill and has devolved into a "moe character". Oh, man! I love watching that oversized talking scrap metal carry boxes around! So much action! morrownight said: Who knows whatever happens in ep.1 will not be relevant to what is going to happen later in the series?? Yeah, at this point we don't see the Alliance and the Hideous but I expect they will get into our radar again later. Also it does not negate the similarity and comparability of Madoka and Gargantia in terms of "false advertising" and "misjudgement of genre". The "grimness" in Madoka changes the direction of the plot, which means whatever happened before was actually RELEVANT to what happened later. At this point, the significance of the Alliance and the Hideauze has already practically dropped to zero. morrownight said: Before I answer your question, why do you say my English sounds Japanese?? And where do you learn your Japanese?もしそうでなければ、失礼でした。ただ、あなたの英語は少し日本人っぽいし、日本語もわかるようだし、そして日本にいるそうだし。。。 で、どこの出身？ |
symbvMay 11, 2013 9:10 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Takana_no_Hana said: One thing I am impressed with Gargantia is how much thinking they put into that 10 minutes. I even saw a few detailed diagrams about the warp technology, the fleet formation and the weapon modules that form large lattice like structure. It only goes to show the meticulousness that went into this show, and I can only imagine the level of details that went into the settings on Earth, like the structure of the Gargantia fleet and the different work areas in it.The full space setting you said was just the first half of the first episode for like 8-10 minutes. And after that? It was what it is right now. Hell, I don't even see space on the front cover of the anime. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: Takana_no_Hana said: One thing I am impressed with Gargantia is how much thinking they put into that 10 minutes. I even saw a few detailed diagrams about the warp technology, the fleet formation and the weapon modules that form large lattice like structure. It only goes to show the meticulousness that went into this show, and I can only imagine the level of details that went into the settings on Earth, like the structure of the Gargantia fleet and the different work areas in it.The full space setting you said was just the first half of the first episode for like 8-10 minutes. And after that? It was what it is right now. Hell, I don't even see space on the front cover of the anime. Yeah, beside the SoL aspect, I really like the sci-fi and thoughts they put into this work. Not only the structures but also natural events (like lightnings and the milky way event when they have tiny creatures which produce electricity for the fleet). Or the artificial rain(and rainbow) which occurred this episode. And not only the space setting that they put lots of detail and thinking in, they even handled the night combat with the same efforts as they did with the space fight. |
| >>AnimageNeby Thank you for trying to settle things, but I don't think you understand how deep our debate has gotten. In fact, what you've done is simply add your own opinion, and it is exactly what symbv was talking about - the inability to see past this episode as a beach episode with fan service, and recognize all the other merits, like the subtle character development. What we were really arguing about was, why the Western reaction (and we've been speaking statistically the entire time, despite using only "Western" or "Japanese" as labels) and the Japanese reaction were so drastically different this time around. symbv thinks it's because the majority of Western fans fail to see anything but the skin in the show, and thus gave it a low rating and harsh criticism. I was trying to explain that no, it was not because of the majority of people had a knee-jerk reaction to skin, but the bad pacing and handling of the overarching plot that turned most Western viewers off. The rest was me trying to explain the reasoning behind finding fault with the plot, and symbv trying to argue which way was the right way to enjoy the series. In the end it seems symbv has yet to concede on any of the points which I have mentioned, but I am honestly tired of continuing the debate. We can all wait for the next episode in silence, perhaps. >>symbv 二年半くらいの独学ですよ。そして、気のせいだけ。あなたは？ |
tealcactusMay 11, 2013 8:50 PM
| Well I'm glad the 'beach' episode is done early on, so it doesn't interrupt major plot later on... I loved the parts with chamber being used as a BBQ though haha And the crossdresser :D I think Ledo would've done well with them though, he'd make a cute girl XD manuxel said: It was nice, the girls looked cute and all but I want to see more annihilation... Doesn't seem this anime is going to be entirely about annihilation... I mean murder is taboo so I don't expect anyone to get blown up in action scenes any time soon... unless they kill someone off for character development, though in such a case, it'll probably be a dramatic scene instead of an action one most likely... You could read ahead in the manga if you're desperate to see XD I'm happy waiting myself though XD |
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| Yo wasn't this supposed to air today or something? Wheres mah episode 6? |
| Let's go bowling. |
StopDropAndBowl said: Yo wasn't this supposed to air today or something? Wheres mah episode 6? The 6th episode airs at 10 pm in Japan on TOKYO MX, so we still have quite a bit of waiting to do. |
stefeman said: Bwhahaha! Wtf is this shit? xD Large image: Lol at the shemales xD Great episode anyways XD Haha yeah. X) But we all have to start somewhere. lol |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
morrownight said: I would agree with morrownight here. You are actually more like adding your opinion instead of settling anything. And as morrownight said, it is really what I was talking about. . >>AnimageNeby In fact, what you've done is simply add your own opinion, and it is exactly what symbv was talking about - the inability to see past this episode as a beach episode with fan service, and recognize all the other merits, like the subtle character development. morrownight said: Despite my repeated explanation, you are still over-simplying my points. Of course a lot of western fans have knee-jerk reaction against fanservice, but there is also the knee-jerk reaction against SoL (which does not have to do with skin). There is clearly a tendency among many western fans to be unable to accept that SoL can have a place in an anime with message and can be good device for story and character development, and the mix of fanservice is, at least to fans in Japan, a welcome ingredient to spice up the delivery of story and character development. And I have stated my points on a few occasions about your accusation about the show having "false advertisement" (there has been none) and leading to fans "misjudging the genre" (which should not necessarily incur disappointment) which in turn led to severe disappointment and harsh criticism. That is, it is more the lack of ability or desire for the western fans to understand about the actual theme of the show before the show, or adjust their expectation once the show is a few episodes in, or try to understand what the Japanese fans expect to see. The main thing is, if a work that is aimed at Japanese audience got overwhelmingly positive feedback from its target audience, and the praise is not just about the fanservice or SoL but about its pacing, directing, art and animation, then I would say it would be an opportunity for a foreigner to ask himself whether his standard of judging a work is really the only desirable standard to use. If a person is not close-minded, it should serve as a welcome chance for a foreigner to come to some understanding of what Japanese fans consider a well made episode, instead of jumping to conclusion that there is "bad pacing and handling of the overarching plot" (which western fans are much more prickly about at the expense of other elements when it comes to judging an anime) as if "bad pacing" is already a given. symbv thinks it's because the majority of Western fans fail to see anything but the skin in the show, and thus gave it a low rating and harsh criticism. I was trying to explain that no, it was not because of the majority of people had a knee-jerk reaction to skin, but the bad pacing and handling of the overarching plot that turned most Western viewers off. morrownight said: 二年半ってこんなに上達？なかなかやるじゃないですか。俺も独学です。何年まえからって忘れたんだけど。二年半くらいの独学ですよ。そして、気のせいだけ。あなたは？ |
symbvMay 12, 2013 12:43 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| Great calm episode that builds up the main character's exploration and growth in pacifist society. Although since this episode was so calm...who is dying next episode? :[ As for people expecting pew pews - wrong show. |
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| Great episode. The water tower, the flight race and the party created the perfect blissful atmosphere. Loved it. |
| >>symbv 大したもんじゃない。それより、もうどこが論点かわからなくなってしまった。 Now I feel like we haven't even been arguing about the same thing. 私は最初から言いたかったのは、ほとんどの外人が低評価をした理由とは、水着回や日常回そのものに反対だからではなく、第一回のせいでほとんどの外人が惑わされた感じをしたことである。それは彼ら自身の見方だ。私はただその一人として、その理屈を説明しようとしたんだ。日本人じゃなければ、日本人と別な意見を持つのは自然だろう？あなたは外人の反応が理不尽だと語っていたが、元々そのリアクションが「正しい」かどうかは、私は語っていない。 だって、本当に嫌なら、このシリーズを捨ててばいい。 これからも多くの外人はガルガンティアを見送るんだ。最終回を見るまで、日本人のファンからも外人のファンからも、いろんな意見がでてくるはず。この回が本当に良かったのかどうかは、未だなかなか決められないことだと思います。 |
tealcactusMay 12, 2013 5:01 PM
| >>AnimageNeby I'm sorry, I don't want to reply to that monstrosity of a comment you just posted, because it clearly shows that you haven't read at all the contents of our discussion. You jumped headfirst into our debate without figuring what was going on, which to be honest is rather rude. Let me get two things clear: One, it is an established fact that the 5th episode was thus far the most well-received episode in Gargantia among Japanese fans. Two, both symbv and I have been using sources to back our reasoning, something you wouldn't know because you didn't read any of it. On the other hand, I don't see you using any evidence; I only see personal opinion. |
morrownight said: Agree with morrownight again. AnimageNeby, again you dump a huge load of text just to regurgitate the points you want to make. And I do not really see any evidence you have paid attention to our discussion. And although I hesitate to say it, I have sympathy with morrownight's saying that you are rather rude in your behavior. And like him, I do not really feel like replying to that huge lump of text you posted.>>AnimageNeby I'm sorry, I don't want to reply to that monstrosity of a comment you just posted, because it clearly shows that you haven't read at all the contents of our discussion. You jumped headfirst into our debate without figuring what was going on, which to be honest is rather rude. Let me get two things clear: One, it is an established fact that the 5th episode was thus far the most well-received episode in Gargantia among Japanese fans. Two, both symbv and I have been using sources to back our reasoning, something you wouldn't know because you didn't read any of it. On the other hand, I don't see you using any evidence; I only see personal opinion. morrownight said: いえいえ、二年半でゼロから日本語のことわざが使える段階まで着いてるなんてあなたは天才じゃん！俺ともかくほとんどの人はそれが絶対無理だと思う。大したもんじゃない。 morrownight said: I don't think it is appropriate to write most of the post in a language other than English in MAL, even in Japanese which is the language in anime/manga, so I will reply to you in English. 私は最初から言いたかったのは、ほとんどの外人が低評価をした理由とは、水着回や日常回そのものに反対だからではなく、第一回のせいでほとんどの外人が惑わされた感じをしたことである。それは彼ら自身の見方だ。私はただその一人として、その理屈を説明しようとしたんだ。日本人じゃなければ、日本人と別な意見を持つのは自然だろう？あなたは外人の反応が理不尽だと語っていたが、元々そのリアクションが「正しい」かどうかは、私は語っていない。 I understand what you try to say here, and what you have been trying to say. But this is all because of a mistaken take of what the anime is offering just because of what they see in ep.1, and it is made worse by the refusal to accept that their initial expectation is a mistake and the theme of the anime is on somewhere else, which is something that Japanese fans are much more flexible. And this is not really 第一回のせい, because if you say that you are putting the blame on the first episode. If there is any blame, then it is more on the viewers themselves who 1) do not read the advertisement material well but later blame "false advertising" 2) refuse to adjust their view once they know their initial expectation is not what the series are offering 3) and the refusal is perhaps made more determined because of some visceral animosity against SoL or fanservice, which Japanese fans have considerably higher tolerance or acceptance. Of course you are right, since they are not Japanese, surely it is natural that they feel differently, but if they only want to stick to their own view and refuse to question themselves that their standard is not the only standard valid to judge an anime series or an episode, which is a product aimed entirely towards a Japanese audience and received overwhelmingly positively by this audience, then I can only say there is an element of willful cultural ignorance or even cultural arrogance/suprematicism in play here (my standard is better than yours, even though it is a product that is aimed only to people like you) |
symbvMay 12, 2013 11:30 PM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
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