| Tbh it's not so much the lack of death in shonen that bothers me- it's the melodrama and build up to a character death, only for said character to miraculously survive (via asspull) or for them to be randomly revived like basically all of the characters in Dragon Ball. For instance, in Inuyasha it was cool at first but the novelty wore off after a while. Then we have Fairy Tail which constantly builds up character deaths but just never actually goes through with it- and it just gets worse and worse as time goes on. So those elements of shonen are annoying, but I wouldn't say the lack of death is a problem on its own. In fact, too much death completely cheapens the cathartic effects of it happening & shock value is only successful short term. We saw that with Akame ga Kill. The shounen I'd say utilizes death the best is JoJo's Bizarre Adventure which can be especially ruthless with it because it can afford to be- anybody is easy pickings. It is a generational story after all, so deaths range from greatly emotional and symbolic to brutal and over in a flash. It's that mix that adds realism to the whole thing- despite how bizarre it might be. Next best I'd go with Hunter x Hunter and Shingeki no Kyojin because there is some slight plot armor going on with the main cast, but not enough to be 100% sure if they'll all survive by the time the conclusion comes. Then there's One Piece which has a significantly lower body count, but much like in HxH, the deaths have a huge impact on the plot and/or characters. You can feel the profound effect the losses have on the world of the series so the number of deaths become less important and it's rather a matter of what they represent. |
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Jack_Corvus96 said: Thats why Hunter x Hunter is King of shounens with a great amount of deaths great amount of deaths >only 3 named characters and villains die that are important such great amount such wow |
| It's good that Slop leveling won the CR awards with such a power gap, Gaijin Weebs don't deserve good anime. Not after what they did to frieren, kusuriya, and many others |
Nightkiller-X said: I agree, the problem with One piece is exactly that I mean 780 episodes and no one in Luffy's crew dies. I mean that's kinda boring, dying is a sad thing but we need to have emotion to make a anime good, mostly all good rated animes have deaths it should be clear that we need more of it. good rated anime >so the edgy reset series like erased and edgy everyone dies aot? gtfo |
| It's good that Slop leveling won the CR awards with such a power gap, Gaijin Weebs don't deserve good anime. Not after what they did to frieren, kusuriya, and many others |
| Shonen is aimed towards teenagers and kids. Seinen anime is aimed towards young adults and tends to have actual character death.Character death doesn't mean quality anyway. |
| Yea, I was pretty disappointed when no one died in Shokugeki no Soma, I mean there's a battle like every other episode. |
| I agree with the OP. Compared to the number of fights there are in shounen, it is extremely rare that one would result in death of one of the main characters. This makes every fight less exciting, since you know they will mostly come out alive. We need something like Fate/Zero. |
Isterio said: No, he didn't think that. He wanted to have a story that spawned through generations and wanted to have Dio dead for a while then make him come back to life, however since he was dead for a while Araki made part 2 in order to have something happen during that period and give the feeling of time passing. He already had a story devised until part 3.Jojo´s Part One being the only Shounen I know of that did kill it´s main character most likely only because Araki thought that he was already done with the series. https://youtu.be/IYLRKoWDadM |
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| Akame Ga Kill was a shonen that didn't shy away from killing off it's cast. Although it killed simply for the sake of being different than other anime, not for it's own sake. Main characters dropped like flies before you could even get attached to them. The first 2 deaths are shocking cause you don't expect it but it gets repetitive and the only reason it will give you to watch it is to guess who will die next. |
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| 3 things: - if you create chars, you dont want them to die as an author, unless you create Game of Thrones - Its actually quite hard to put a balance between impact and redundancy. E.g. One Piece basically doesnt have deaths, but the one it had, had a big impact on the community. The whole arc was about saving this one person and in the end it still didnt work out - and the MOST IMPORTANT ONE: popularity.. if the fans are pissed of, that their fav char died, they may stop reading the manga/anime. But that just doesnt aplly to death, but also plot, pairings and so on. Just read all the comments about Kyo Ani's Hibike, when a certain ship was teased at the first half of the show, but it went in another direction. But in this case I blame the director of the anime, not the original author. But to the former: If readers dont buy your shit, your series will be canceled. Its always a compromise for ongoing series. |
| Rather than deaths I wanted to see more characters corrupted to evil in shounens or fiction in general, I found it to be a lot of fun than watching deaths. Never get enough of it. |
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cantius said: I think TC forgot to emphasize the more important characters that continuously survive. i don't think he's primarily talking about the cannon fodder. Probably. But then, this thread is absurd, I mean, who'd seriously argue that, say, DBZ would be a better (more "realistc" or whatever) show if Goku died for good or One Piece if the Straw Hats were slaughtered? Those character make their shows what they are. From a narrative perspective, it just doesn't make any sense. There's enough death in those shonen to make you believe that the characters in danger. Also, I'm not just talking canon fodder. In One Piece, for example, pretty much every character backstory involves someone close to them dying/being killed. Definitely not just 2 deaths as OP claims. |
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| These anime are about running forever and never ending. Deaths may disturb it, so there's no death. These anime are crap anyway. |
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| I think shounen targets are mostly to younger audiences. Thou, in my opinion.... deaths are not what makes a shounen anime better. One should consider that what makes deaths valuable are the impacts that caused of those. |
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| I personally prefer less death..protects me from crying too much Ace's death was enough for me seriously I do not need more in One Piece T_T And I am also still unhappy with Jiraya dying I am done |
Bulma777Apr 11, 2017 3:42 AM
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| I think we have to understand the demographic and what that demographic is aimed at in respect to that audience. Shounen are about getting better, exceeding who you are and proving people wrong, taken at face value for a young viewer. It seems ironic one would want more death in shounens. Akame ga Kill for example, everyone hated the death-factor in that show. It seems like people will never be pleased in regards to whatever shounen they choose to watch. This is why I think people tend to mock the genre. |
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On_the_Lam said: True, true but battle shounens are not the only ones with this issue, ask Homura about that...BatoKusanagi said: DBZ: Literally all life on Earth and other planets is wiped out several times. What's the point of death if it isn't permanent? ...or Okabe |
zalApr 11, 2017 5:11 AM
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RVDA said: I'm honestly saying this with no animosity whatsoever, but I believe neither @Pullman nor @Flannan understand what realism means. Case in point? The fact that you guys come up with the ludicrous claim that "Fantasy/superpowers shows don't need realism." That's not true. Realism does not imply that what is depicted in the show actually really exist. Ofc rasengans and gomu-gomus and kamehamehas don't actualy exist. No shit. Realism on the other hand does imply that the events occuring within the setting of a show make sense, at least to a certain extent. E.g. Say a show has the following premises: > Character A's super laser beam can destroy a mountain. > Character B's body is weaker than a mountain. Given those premises it'd be expected that Character B would die if hit by a laser beam blast. And that's what I'm talkig about. Realism means that a show ought to unfold in respect to the premises it itself has estabished. Which I don't think most shounen battle anime (at least, the ones I did watch, obviously) do, hence why I'd tend to agree with the OP. I assure you, I've been in realism debates for years, and I know exactly what realism means. Nothing. To be more specific, there are at least 3 different things that can all be called "realism". But not a single one of them applies to shounen battle anime. When I was talking about realism, I was specifically talking about the kind of realism that this topic assumes. Shounen battle anime does not have it. It is inherently idealistic genre where hard work, power of friendship and being a good guy are the real reasons for victory. Things like "being hit by a beam that can destroy a mountain" do not matter, because they do not reduce a character's goodness, friendliness or hard work. |
Showing that it's a possibility without killing your show or were you expecting DBZ to continue without planet Earth? Seriously, though, killing off characters can work (Claymore did it, and it was pretty good), but when the entire show is centered around those characters, it doesn't make sense for them to die. Even so, if they were invincible, things would get boring quickly, so they still die. |
BatoKusanagi said: DBZ: Literally all life on Earth and other planets is wiped out several times. One Piece: The Navy literally genocides the people of Ohara. Naruto Shippden: Tens of thousands dead during the War Arc. WTF are you talking about? Not only that, but he mentioned a bunch of the main characters in the story. Like don't even get me started on the Akatsuki. Every single last Akatsuki member other than Sasuke and team Taka has ended up dead somewhere. |
 Throughout my life, the moments and people who define me... They have all been illuminated by sparks.  |
| Sometimes and for not to say always, death shouldn't be dramatic and totally meaningful. For me is more realistic seeing a guy who dies instantly without saying anything than the one who talks until his last breath... Well, even I want to see that in the death of a character I like saying his last words and some flashbacks if we didn't see him before to at least feel bad or cry. |
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Scarlett_ryuken said: Jack_Corvus96 said: Thats why Hunter x Hunter is King of shounens with a great amount of deaths great amount of deaths >only 3 named characters and villains die that are important such great amount such wow still, it is a acceptable amount of deaths(overall, even if they are not relevant), also that those who are dead remain dead, which breaks the plot armor that other shounen has JoJo has a lot of deaths too btw |
| "We could make the world better, but it's easier to just shut our eyes." ~Blackwall |
zal said: True, true but battle shounens are not the only ones with this issue, ask Homura about that... ...or Okabe xddddd Considering how much the characters change through those "resets" (if we could call them that), the examples you've given are different. Might want to add Re:Zero in there as well. However, if a character dies in the season finale and is immediately revived in the second episode of the next season and does not change a single bit then that's a problem. BatoKusanagi said: Showing that it's a possibility without killing your show or were you expecting DBZ to continue without planet Earth? Seriously, though, killing off characters can work (Claymore did it, and it was pretty good), but when the entire show is centered around those characters, it doesn't make sense for them to die. Even so, if they were invincible, things would get boring quickly, so they still die. Then why even bother killing them if it isn't going to change anything? |
| Death is bad if you like the character. |
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Continuing with DBZ as the example, if you really think Goku's deaths haven't changed anything you weren't paying attention. More generally a character dying, even temporarily, can change a lot of things. For example, motivating other characters. |
On_the_Lam said: It's a problem only when you don't like the show. Be it time reset or whatever reason GOT gives they are just excuses or devices that do pretty much the same thing, you have double standards with S;G and Madoka. zal said: True, true but battle shounens are not the only ones with this issue, ask Homura about that... ...or Okabe xddddd Considering how much the characters change through those "resets" (if we could call them that), the examples you've given are different. Might want to add Re:Zero in there as well. However, if a character dies in the season finale and is immediately revived in the second episode of the next season and does not change a single bit then that's a problem. The comment I first replied referred to DBZ but the dragon balls' wishes are just as realistic and convenient as S;G and Madoka's time travel. |
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zal said: On_the_Lam said: It's a problem only when you don't like the show. Be it time reset or whatever reason GOT gives they are just excuses or devices that do pretty much the same thing, you have double standards with S;G and Madoka. xddddd Considering how much the characters change through those "resets" (if we could call them that), the examples you've given are different. Might want to add Re:Zero in there as well. However, if a character dies in the season finale and is immediately revived in the second episode of the next season and does not change a single bit then that's a problem. The comment I first replied referred to DBZ but the dragon balls' wishes are just as realistic and convenient as S;G and Madoka's time travel. Nah, pretty sure it seems that way to you only because you don't like Steins;gate and Madoka. |
On_the_Lam said: Not really, I also feel the same way about shows I like. That is just a minor reason I don't like those two shows.zal said: It's a problem only when you don't like the show. Be it time reset or whatever reason GOT gives they are just excuses or devices that do pretty much the same thing, you have double standards with S;G and Madoka. The comment I first replied referred to DBZ but the dragon balls' wishes are just as realistic and convenient as S;G and Madoka's time travel. Nah, pretty sure it seems that way to you only because you don't like Steins;gate and Madoka. If you say that dead people have to stay dead then you should apply it to those two shows as well. |
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| Anime which take place in the context of a war or other violent scenarios need to have a lot of death. It just doesn't make sense for it not to, and the arguments against this are so dumb. First, there is the 'realism' argument. People who use this argument seem unable to use basic logic, so I will explain why this argument is stupid briefly... A lot of death in war is realistic, whether you like it or not. People will then argue that "but flying and superpowers aren't realistic either," which is completely retarded. @RVDA had it right; whatever the show establishes as the basics or boundaries of that universe is now considered realistic when you are inside that show's universe. If the main characters are up against enemies with similar levels of skill, then it's only realistic that the enemies aren't the only ones who die. Unless the show establishes as a law of the universe that the main characters can't die (and then it's a terrible show), it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to have those main characters survive the entire series if they are constantly put in dangerous situations. Now, obviously you need to have at least some of the main characters survive, but a show like Fairy Tail where nobody ever dies is just dumb and unrealistic. The other common argument I've seen is that death is for 'edgelords,' which is basically just an opinion and not an actual argument. If you don't like death, then fine, but don't complain about how death is only put in to appease these supposedly edgy deviants and has no intrinsic value in itself. Ultimately, death is a large part of war and danger, and so it is only natural that it is seen in anime where situations of peril are common, like shonens. Death happens suddenly, without warning, and sometimes before you get to know the person as much as you wanted to. Sorry, but majestic, heroic deaths just don't happen in real life, and I don't want to see that theatrical shit in anime either. |
 What's the difference? |
| I think we'll all agree on FT in that case. |
On_the_Lam said: I think there has been a misunderstanding. I do not, nor do I plan to, watch Dragonball. Oh, just mentioned it because it's one of the shounen anime OP used as examples. |
| Shounen has this certain age target. Well, I don't know what will happen if they stick to realism. Cause in reality, the fighting that the Shounen characters do will cause them death so imagine what will happen to the story. |
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Jack_Corvus96 said: Scarlett_ryuken said: great amount of deaths >only 3 named characters and villains die that are important such great amount such wow still, it is a acceptable amount of deaths(overall, even if they are not relevant), also that those who are dead remain dead, which breaks the plot armor that other shounen has JoJo has a lot of deaths too btw 3 isnt acceptable, unless you mean fodder in which case naruto and dragon ball had more fodders, and yes they stay dead |
| It's good that Slop leveling won the CR awards with such a power gap, Gaijin Weebs don't deserve good anime. Not after what they did to frieren, kusuriya, and many others |
Scarlett_ryuken said: Jack_Corvus96 said: still, it is a acceptable amount of deaths(overall, even if they are not relevant), also that those who are dead remain dead, which breaks the plot armor that other shounen has JoJo has a lot of deaths too btw 3 isnt acceptable, unless you mean fodder in which case naruto and dragon ball had more fodders, and yes they stay dead oh shite i forgot about that, my bad, you are right then |
| "We could make the world better, but it's easier to just shut our eyes." ~Blackwall |
| You guys seem to be missing the point. People that desire deaths normally do so in order to feel more emotionally attached to a series. A well-orchestrated death will usually lead to a memorable event, a milestone, or checkpoint. A lot of it comes with unpredictability of the death and betting on the audience's attachment to the dead character. From just this chat, you could already tell you guys aren't really considering the "enemy" point of view. For example, I'm pretty sure most deaths in Naruto, whether they are enemy or ally are important (and there are a lot of enemy deaths). I realized that it's a lot easier to sensitize death in a series when there is a thin line between "good" and "evil". Some of it is related to the way the characters are written, but also the attachment or sympathy one might feel for them. Of course, one of the most important factors in killing a character for the author is to make it worth it (ie. ensuing character development). What this debate is about should be clarified, because some are hating on others for "liking the amount of deaths" rather than "quality of deaths". I believe what the OP meant was that in most "serious battle shounen series" (I added serious or else it would just be edgy/comedy and battle because some people can't understand we're not talking about shounen SoL), the risks are not met with the consequences (ie. deaths in war). |
blobApr 11, 2017 9:55 PM
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zal said: On_the_Lam said: Nah, pretty sure it seems that way to you only because you don't like Steins;gate and Madoka. If you say that dead people have to stay dead then you should apply it to those two shows as well. Not if time traveling/reset is a major plot device (S;g) or an important revelation (Madoka). Pretty sure they threw in resets in Dragonball because they had no idea what to do with the series anymore. |
On_the_Lam said: So the time resets in Erased and Re:Zero are good?zal said: If you say that dead people have to stay dead then you should apply it to those two shows as well. Not if time traveling/reset is a major plot device (S;g) or an important revelation (Madoka). Pretty sure they threw in resets in Dragonball because they had no idea what to do with the series anymore. |
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| It's a genre targeting 13 year olds and over. Why is this even a topic.. |
| The reason is that most of the popular shonen animes are targeted for wide audience which includes some young viewers thus is even more apparent in the english versions of these animes where the censorship just goes out of hand.another reason could be that by making the main characters not susceptible to killing anyone they appear more heroic cause that is something that heroes don't do and when a good guy dies the author wants to make there death meaningful this is especially true for naruto so it can be a bit of drag to have too many deaths but this is not true for the background characters where they just drop like flies in every major battle |
"Life and death have been in love, For longer than we have words to describe, Life sends countless gifts to death, And death keeps them forever."  |
| Attack on Titan is airing with plenty of important characters dying |
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zal said: On_the_Lam said: So the time resets in Erased and Re:Zero are good?Not if time traveling/reset is a major plot device (S;g) or an important revelation (Madoka). Pretty sure they threw in resets in Dragonball because they had no idea what to do with the series anymore. No, because Re:Zero is trash as a whole, and the resets in Erased make no fucking sense. Pretty sure they at least gave explanations in both Steins;gate and Madoka. |
| Complaining that time loop series deaths are unimpactful is sorta..uh, stupid? That's..the whole point, I think. Anway...One Piece spoilers |
ashfrliebertApr 12, 2017 12:41 PM
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On_the_Lam said: Re:Zero has yet to reveal its explanation but there is (I got spoiled about it).No, because Re:Zero is trash as a whole, and the resets in Erased make no fucking sense. Pretty sure they at least gave explanations in both Steins;gate and Madoka. Re:Zero is pretty much on par with Steins; Gate or Madoka in terms of quality. DBZ (referring mostly to the resurrection as I don't know anything about the time resets) and most of the show do give explanations as well to why those characters don't stay dead, be it the main theme or not it is still an explanation. I don't see why Madoka and S;G should receive a special treatment for this other than those are shows you like. |
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| Inb4shounenfanarguments. Maybe we should be more careful with spoilers and keep the conversation actively about why there are people that aren't dying in battle shounen when they should be. =) I think ever since SAO, a lot of series are more lax with killing off people (especially at the beginning), which sort of broke the 'nobody dies in shounen' barrier. Roll back a few years and it was taboo to even show blood in shounen if it wasn't a scratch near the cheek. Imo, the industry is still young in that department and thrives to get better at it, just give it some time. My opinion is that I would like it if an anime transferred main character either by death or just point of view switch; I feel like an author that can pull this off well has something worth watching, because it's not easy to ditch all of the effort done. I can think of a very popular "note" anime that did it and it caused much controversy. I feel like important deaths shouldn't be predictable even if the conditions make you expect people should die more (something like the main character dying), but I've never seen the main character killing himself (without coming back to life) in order to save a dying ally. Maybe shounen main characters aren't put in these situations enough or are always to be saved by someone at the last minute. What I know is that a recent recurring trend is to make someone supposedly invulnerable (unless put in a vulnerable position) die this way, sort of like how the only uber weakness superheroes have are the weaker people they want to protect. Off-topic a bit : |
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