| I kind of stand in the opposite direction, actually - I'm outright against it getting the ecchi tag. Not because I dislike it, but because you can count the actual amount of sexualized scenes on two hands. People just seem to draw specific attention to those few and far between scenes here for reasons I don't quite understand. I think the ecchi tag should be used first and foremost to indicate a certain threshold of sexual content and to use it as a database to seek out things that past that threshold - wherever the line is drawn withstanding, since I don't know what standards the database mods use to determine whether or not a series warrants the ecchi tag. I do believe that something that only really has a few ecchi moments spread out across the series rather than it being a consistent theme shouldn't possess the tag, though. You can search through Eromanga yourself and isolate a few instances that would pass off as ecchi because it's not entirely void of fanservice, yeah, but compared to some of the stuff I would consider to be borderline not-ecchi and still possess the tag, like Nazo no Kanojo X or Tsugomomo, I don't even think the quantity of ecchi in Eromanga even lives up to those two, which isn't even a particularly high ceiling to begin with given that there's maybe 4 or 5 panty shots and a few bath scenes in all of Tsugumomo, but at least they tend to be at least somewhat present, no matter how minor they may be, from episode to episode. In Eromanga, there's a scene where it shows Sagiri taking a shot of her ass with her cellphone which lasts all of 2 seconds or so, there's the twister scene with Elf and Masamune, there's the scene with Megumin blindfolded, and there's the doujinishi bit, but other than that the most it would generally offer is girls wearing swimsuits in on the beach in a way that was still rather tame comparatively to some beach episodes in even non-ecchi fanservicey anime. There's a split second shot of Elf playing the piano, but it doesn't really frame it in a way that shows anything except her thighs and maybe a bit above it, and given the brevity of the shot and how it was framed in a way that was pretty non-revealing, I can't help but feel that didn't even constitute sexualization but to indicate that Elf is an oddball who plays the piano naked. I can't even think of much else off of the top of my head, so I'm not even sure if I should count that. So no, I can't say agree. I can't even say I agree that there's a constant barrage of sexual fanservice in Eromanga itself, just because the majority of it was few and far between and is often isolated. It exists, but it's not really as consistent within the series as many seem to make it out to be. Like, I dunno man. It exists within the series at certain points, and word of mouth has already very well made it known that it exists, but in terms of things that already have the ecchi tag, I don't even really think it deserves to be on the borderline low-end. It just isn't present enough on the whole and is mostly relegated to a couple of scenes. There are multiple whole episodes without any ecchi type content whatsoever, unless you just have a low ceiling for what passes as too much and Megumin's dick joke would constitute sexualization somehow, even though it was just straight up dialogue and not a boob jiggle or pantyshot in sight. Seems like a romcom with fanservice here and there moreso than a straight up ecchi. I don't really feel like it's fair for fanservice existing in a series to equal the ecchi tag. |
ManabanAug 21, 2017 8:44 AM
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| MAL tags Nanatsu no Taizai with ecchi but fails to tag Phantom World. I think this must have been an honest mistake to leave the tag off of Eromanga Sensei since the series is clearly sexual. |
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sonithjackke said: zombie_pegasus said: MAL tags Nanatsu no Taizai with ecchi but fails to tag Phantom World. I think this must have been an honest mistake to leave the tag off of Eromanga Sensei since the series is clearly sexual. That's ultimately what led me to argue this in the first place. MAL has a serious issue with disregarding "ecchi" tags and misappropriating them to series that don't deserve them and not allocating them to series that absolutely do. I would say most people would agree that Eromanga-sensei has enough ecchi/fanservice-y scenes to qualify, but there's also a strong vocal minority that defends it saying (as above) that the amount of fanservice can be counted on two hands. The point is not the "total amount", the point is "what is the show showing us?" maybe start a poll in the eromanga subforum and see what people think? iirc KLK didn't have the ecchi tag for a long time but there was a poll where 2/3rds of people said it should be and sooner or later it got the ecchi tag though i do completely agree with this tbh: sonithjackke said: That's ultimately what led me to argue this in the first place. MAL has a serious issue with disregarding "ecchi" tags and misappropriating them to series that don't deserve them and not allocating them to series that absolutely do. though i do think that adding eromanga would only contribute to as much, because it's a two-way street, stuff without very much is tagged as ecchi (Nazo no Kanojo X, Tsugumomo) and stuff with a good amount of it consistently appearing throughout isn't (Nisemonogatari) sonithjackke said: I would say most people would agree that Eromanga-sensei has enough ecchi/fanservice-y scenes to qualify, but there's also a strong vocal minority that defends it saying (as above) that the amount of fanservice can be counted on two hands. The point is not the "total amount", the point is "what is the show showing us?" Though, by this logic, the ecchi genre itself would become entirely bloated with a bunch of shows that shouldn't realistically pass as an ecchi because they've got one or two scenes in them. Since I like ecchi and I want to be able to use the tag to find stuff I want to see better, I don't see how just isolating a couple of scenes within any given series and saying that's enough would do anything to help how poorly the ecchi tag tends to be applied. It's not really meant to signify that sexual stuff exists within a series, but the impression I have is that it crosses a certain threshold of how much a show is sexually charged. |
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sonithjackke said: manaban said: It's not really meant to signify that sexual stuff exists within a series, but the impression I have is that it crosses a certain threshold of how much a show is sexually charged. While I completely agree with a lot of what you say regarding over-use of the tag, a show like Eromanga-sensei is sexually charged. The very name implies it as such, though that's not exactly much of an argument or defense as some other anime have misleading titles as well. But due to the nature of the show itself, I can't say the show is misleading with its title. And, again, while you say there are only a "handful" of such scenes, that's not what I got from it at all. It may be because both of our definitions of such are wildly different, since - as you said - you specifically look for ecchi shows to begin with, while I do not. That there may just be the crux of the issue itself. Not necessarily. Like you said, "what does it show us?" The title may be Eromanga-sensei, but how much of it was "Ero" in comparison to the aspects of it that were more along the lines of a romcom or anything else? The ecchi tag seems difficult to apply because nobody knows what it is, not even people who tend to like it if you look at this post and the two above it, but we won't make any progress whatsoever in determining exactly where the best place to draw the line is if we just let it be "however people want it to be." I actually want to be able to use the ecchi tag reliably to find stuff I like one day, and it seems like you have your reasons for wanting it to be reliably and consistently applied as well. But when we set the ceiling as low as to label something as it with a few scenes spread out across a number of episodes as being "ecchi" just because it possesses sexual content on rare occassion and has "Ero" in the title, even if the actual amount of it is much lesser than even stuff that seems like it just barely passes as an ecchi, then the ceiling would just be way too low. We're never going to agree on a line if you're just telling me that our definitions are different, man. They very clearly are, but that doesn't mean that we can't reach an understanding here and try to determine a more reasonable level. And I'm sorry, but there's not really much of a chance that I think it'd be fair to acknowledge Eromanga-sensei as an ecchi given how decisively lacking it is in total amount and prominence whenever one takes a more holistic view on the distribution of content within the series itself. That'd set the ceiling too low, and to consistently apply it, a bunch of shows with fanservice scenes once every 3 or 4 or 5 episodes would have to be tagged as such as well. That, quite honestly, seems completely unfair to somebody like me, who wants to actually use that tag to actively seek out ecchi shows to watch, as opposed to use it as a warning label like you want to. |
ManabanAug 21, 2017 11:44 AM
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sonithjackke said: I think there be a misunderstanding in regards to why I wish the show to have an "ecchi" tag. I watched the show near til the end, I know what was shown. To say there were only a "handful" of ecchi moments just isn't factual. Now, that may be because your definition and my definition defer on vastly different levels, and I can appreciate that difference and respect it. However, I also don't want "ecchi" as a label to be a warning sign in-and-of-itself. The show glorifies ecchi. It's what most of the main protagonists discuss regularly and, in the case of Eromanga-sensei herself, try and display on a regular basis in order to either get artistic inspiration or other, weirder reasons like enticing her step-brother. In this particular case of this show, it's very hard to attribute - definitively - ecchi to it because, as you say, there are episodes where none of it occurs. That, to me, isn't the point; the point is that it revels in it and uses it as a plot device. Other shows, like Bakemonogatari have much less ecchi scenes, but the Monogatari series as whole is absolutely an ecchi series, despite its lack of a genre tag. That's the point I'm getting at: that MAL is mis-attributing such tags even when it's clear that they need them. If one doesn't find the toothbrush scene, for instance, as blatantly sexual then there's a problem, and in that problem we find how subtle sexual titillation doesn't get tagged as such when other shows (like Nanatsu no Taizai for example) receive the tag. It's a fundamental issue, not just for the show on topic but in general. Eromanga-sensei not receiving such a tag while others with much, much less sexual issues have is a problem. You may not see it as such, and I find that acceptable, but for others - like myself - I would like to know what I'm getting into before it happens and I'm struck in the face with underage sexual issues. I've listed off all of the examples of ecchi scenes I could think of off of the top of my head already. If you're going to say I'm not being factual, then give me more examples of this somehow or otherwise I see no reason to view this as claiming and asserting without significant evidence to back it up. You say it has more than many other series tagged ecchi, and I say it has less than the lower rung of shows that pass as an ecchi as is. But the main difference between you and I right now is that I've listed off every example of a sexual scene I can think of off of the top of my head, and you're telling me there's much more than that and that ES absolutely revels in it and just trying to fall back on "we have different degrees of what should be considered ecchi" rather than trying to tell me why certain scenes would constitute as ecchi from your point of view. And if things are operating at the extent you're claiming them to, I'm sure you'll have no issue giving me examples I missed out on. |
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| I agree with you, OP, Eromanga-sensei is an anime I believe should get the ecchi tag. Not that I would know, since I haven't watched a lot of ecchi anime. But I do think that Eromanga-sensei and some other anime are in need of the ecchi tag. |
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| Thread moved from Suggestions. |
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| To me, the correct genre would be harem. Which it is also conveniently missing.... Also I think there was Ecchi fanservice in every single episode. And I consider Moe style to only be in existence to titillate the male audience. Every time she bends over every time she looks at panties every time she's drawing lewd pictures every time she blushes.... Because she's embarrassed about the art she draws. The protagonist is the stock brother protag. Which everyone is sexually attracted to for no reason. Confesses their feelings to for no reason. Or hides thier feelings from because drama also everyone is into the protag. You know what needs that Ecchi tag a lot more? Himegoto... |
Energetic-NovaAug 23, 2017 6:30 AM
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
| I would be very concerned by any parent who seriously had to think about rather Eromanga-sensei was suitable viewing for their child or not. |
| "No, son, you may not have your body pillow at the dinner table!" |
| Unfortunately genre tags are based solely on facts, not opinions. Granted ecchi is perhaps the most vaguely defined genre tag of all but still. Eromanga-sensei is certainly not an appropriate anime for a little girl. However, it's not ecchi. Its reasons for being inappropriate lie elsewhere |
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Jendrej said: No fanservice would be a pointless tag since all anime have fanservice. In fact, anime as a medium is often used as a service to the existing fans of the source material. It's like having a tag for anime that don't have large eyes. How would you even test each one? Isn't it kind of subjective if someone is fanservice or not? How do you know the intent of the creators? Saki even has a fair bit of sexual fanservice but clearly isn't an ecchi anime.Maybe a “no fanservice” tag should be added. “No fanservice” instead of “fanservice” because the first one is much less common nowadays. It will help the parents or people who are not in the mood for this, and it will allow the ecchi tag to not be overused. A tag for mild sexual content could be useful. Most of the fanservice in anime isn't ecchi fanservice so that name wouldn't be very accurate for it. |
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I mean, at times, the way Eromanga's gaze is set is really creepy. Some things I put in here to highlight the things said but I think the really creepy way I feel characters are drawn is way more telling. Not that other anime don't have stuff like this, but much like Keijo, this show would not be the show it is without the plot which literally hinges on the fanservice actions of the characters. The fact that there are several hur hur not actually dirty how I meant it lines" just goes to show there were double meaning jokes in this anime. Ones which created stupid misunderstandings. And even more fanservice. Every single episode is suggestive. And sexualizes a 12 year old. But honestly, it was way more sexual than Oreimo. Especially in terms of how they framed every single shot. |
Energetic-NovaAug 30, 2017 8:56 AM
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
zombie_pegasus said: Jendrej said: No fanservice would be a pointless tag since all anime have fanservice. In fact, anime as a medium is often used as a service to the existing fans of the source material. It's like having a tag for anime that don't have large eyes. How would you even test each one? Isn't it kind of subjective if someone is fanservice or not? How do you know the intent of the creators? Saki even has a fair bit of sexual fanservice but clearly isn't an ecchi anime.Maybe a “no fanservice” tag should be added. “No fanservice” instead of “fanservice” because the first one is much less common nowadays. It will help the parents or people who are not in the mood for this, and it will allow the ecchi tag to not be overused. A tag for mild sexual content could be useful. Most of the fanservice in anime isn't ecchi fanservice so that name wouldn't be very accurate for it. I don't know how you can say that when Video Girl Ai is tagged Ecchi. To me the ecchi genre is when the plot revolves around the ecchi/harem elements of the series. And Ecchi is not just the almost porn genre, it is the fanservice as plot genre as well. |
Energetic-NovaAug 30, 2017 8:51 AM
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
Rotton-Girl said: zombie_pegasus said: No fanservice would be a pointless tag since all anime have fanservice. In fact, anime as a medium is often used as a service to the existing fans of the source material. It's like having a tag for anime that don't have large eyes. How would you even test each one? Isn't it kind of subjective if someone is fanservice or not? How do you know the intent of the creators? Saki even has a fair bit of sexual fanservice but clearly isn't an ecchi anime. A tag for mild sexual content could be useful. Most of the fanservice in anime isn't ecchi fanservice so that name wouldn't be very accurate for it. I don't know how you can say that when Video Girl Ai is tagged Ecchi. To me the ecchi genre is when the plot revolves around the ecchi/harem elements of the series. And Ecchi is not just the almost porn genre, it is the fanservice as plot genre as well. I'm pretty sure zombie_pegasus just bringing up the fact that not all fanservice is of a sexual nature (many shows in the action genre feature gratuitous fight scenes because the intended audience would enjoy seeing their favorite characters fight each other regardless of plot reasoning for instance). On topic, perhaps adding a tag system to the TV ratings data would do a better job of reflecting this. The current system just assumes what a rating means, leaving room for plenty of PG-13 ecchi. Aside from the fact that different people have different opinions on what should cause a rating to be stricter or not, it would be helpful to know what garners a certain rating, be it the sexual themes in Eromanga-sensei, the handful of bloody/violent scenes in Kanon '06, whatever it is that gives K-On! a rating above PG (no really what's up with that?), et cetera. |
| @TKB928, Kanon '06 and K-ON! age ratings come from the official North American English licensed release. If one does not exist, then MAL makes one up (unless it's a film. Then MAL uses the Japanese EIRIN rating). These age ratings are normally given if a show has a physical release. So while Eromanga has been licensed, it was only for streaming, and as such, does not have an official English licensed age rating (sometimes they do but in this case it doesn't). If the show hits DVD/BD you can bet your buns that one will be created for it. At that point, MAL will keep/change the rating to whatever it ends up being. So for Kanon and K-on, this is not a difference of opinions. It's just fact that these are the legit age ratings. |
TKB928 said: Rotton-Girl said: I don't know how you can say that when Video Girl Ai is tagged Ecchi. To me the ecchi genre is when the plot revolves around the ecchi/harem elements of the series. And Ecchi is not just the almost porn genre, it is the fanservice as plot genre as well. I'm pretty sure zombie_pegasus just bringing up the fact that not all fanservice is of a sexual nature (many shows in the action genre feature gratuitous fight scenes because the intended audience would enjoy seeing their favorite characters fight each other regardless of plot reasoning for instance). On topic, perhaps adding a tag system to the TV ratings data would do a better job of reflecting this. The current system just assumes what a rating means, leaving room for plenty of PG-13 ecchi. Aside from the fact that different people have different opinions on what should cause a rating to be stricter or not, it would be helpful to know what garners a certain rating, be it the sexual themes in Eromanga-sensei, the handful of bloody/violent scenes in Kanon '06, whatever it is that gives K-On! a rating above PG (no really what's up with that?), et cetera. There are many shows where even sexual fanservice is littered throughout the show but it is not the main point of the show see : Neon Genesis Evangelion. But in the case of Eromanga Sensei it is the reason people are watching it. People are watching it for the lewd things that occur, no matter how "tame" they may seem, they are certainly more than K-on or Love Live which are of the moe genre. It definitely rises itself above the normal innocent sexuality without being sexual (pandering to male desire)of those anime. And the entire plot is built around dirty thoughts, and even a camera that as I have pointed out really does look up and down the characters. And since it is the reason why you would watch the series, I don't see an issue with labeling it either harem or ecchi. There is a harem (three or more girls attracted to the same guy as a main point of the series) And it is ecchi (fanservice as plot). At least it needs to be in the harem category. Why did people watch Eromanga sensei? Because they saw there was panties and lewd jokes and incest. If the reason someone would watch the series is ecchi reasoning... Was it as lewd as Chu-Bra? No. Was it as lewd as Chobits? Yes. And I would say dirtier than Chobits. |
Energetic-NovaAug 31, 2017 1:12 AM
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
lanblade said: @TKB928, Kanon '06 and K-ON! age ratings come from the official North American English licensed release. If one does not exist, then MAL makes one up (unless it's a film. Then MAL uses the Japanese EIRIN rating). These age ratings are normally given if a show has a physical release. So while Eromanga has been licensed, it was only for streaming, and as such, does not have an official English licensed age rating (sometimes they do but in this case it doesn't). If the show hits DVD/BD you can bet your buns that one will be created for it. At that point, MAL will keep/change the rating to whatever it ends up being. So for Kanon and K-on, this is not a difference of opinions. It's just fact that these are the legit age ratings. I figured the ratings came from somewhere and are based on some criteria, I just can't figure out what specific element(s) gave K-On a PG-13 rating. All I've ever been able to figure out is that it's been rated between PG and 16+ depending on release and location (so basically PG-13 average). I'm not complaining, I just found it odd when I noticed it is all. Rotton-Girl said: TKB928 said: I'm pretty sure zombie_pegasus just bringing up the fact that not all fanservice is of a sexual nature (many shows in the action genre feature gratuitous fight scenes because the intended audience would enjoy seeing their favorite characters fight each other regardless of plot reasoning for instance). On topic, perhaps adding a tag system to the TV ratings data would do a better job of reflecting this. The current system just assumes what a rating means, leaving room for plenty of PG-13 ecchi. Aside from the fact that different people have different opinions on what should cause a rating to be stricter or not, it would be helpful to know what garners a certain rating, be it the sexual themes in Eromanga-sensei, the handful of bloody/violent scenes in Kanon '06, whatever it is that gives K-On! a rating above PG (no really what's up with that?), et cetera. There are many shows where even sexual fanservice is littered throughout the show but it is not the main point of the show see : Neon Genesis Evangelion. But in the case of Eromanga Sensei it is the reason people are watching it. People are watching it for the lewd things that occur, no matter how "tame" they may seem, they are certainly more than K-on or Love Live which are of the moe genre. It definitely rises itself above the normal innocent sexuality without being sexual (pandering to male desire)of those anime. And the entire plot is built around dirty thoughts, and even a camera that as I have pointed out really does look up and down the characters. And since it is the reason why you would watch the series, I don't see an issue with labeling it either harem or ecchi. There is a harem (three or more girls attracted to the same guy as a main point of the series) And it is ecchi (fanservice as plot). At least it needs to be in the harem category. Why did people watch Eromanga sensei? Because they saw there was panties and lewd jokes and incest. If the reason someone would watch the series is ecchi reasoning... Was it as lewd as Chu-Bra? No. Was it as lewd as Chobits? Yes. And I would say dirtier than Chobits. I think you missed what I was getting at (that "fanservice" would be too broad of a term to denote sexual implications). I haven't watched Eromanga-sensei (or all that much in the ecchi category as far as MAL is concerned) so I can't judge if it's ecchi or not. Rather I was giving my two cents on a possibly clearer method of marking such anime. In context of the OP I don't imagine a concerned parent is going to care all that much if mature content of any nature is present as a main focus or just incidentally; if it's a concern then they wouldn't want their child to see it either way. Tags can help but genre isn't always implicative of content and shouldn't be used as a replacement. In short, if you feel Eromanga-sensei is ecchi I'm not trying to stop you, I just feel there's a separate underlying problem to the situation described in the OP. |
| @TKB928, according to Aniplex of America. K-ON got that rating because of suggestive dialogue. They actually used the TV Parental Guide rating but MAL has the MPAA scale so you just line it up TV-14 = PG-13. TV-MA = R-17 (either one). TV-PG = PG, TV-G = G. With the TV scale there are letters after it on the 1st season's release. K-ON got 'D' which means suggestive dialogue. This means sexual innuendos, derogatory remarks, stuff like that. They also have the Canadian Home Video Rating on it too and it's rated 14A. According to wiki that means "May contain violence, coarse language and/or sexually suggestive scenes." Overlapping it's language. I assume it's either in their original subtitles or their dub of the show. Neither of which I have seen, I saw fansubs when it was airing. But it might be something like the licensed English manga, it had curse words in it when the original Japanese one didn't. |
Inferno_Blaze said: lanblade said: @TKB928, Kanon '06 and K-ON! age ratings come from the official North American English licensed release. If one does not exist, then MAL makes one up (unless it's a film. Then MAL uses the Japanese EIRIN rating). These age ratings are normally given if a show has a physical release. So while Eromanga has been licensed, it was only for streaming, and as such, does not have an official English licensed age rating (sometimes they do but in this case it doesn't). If the show hits DVD/BD you can bet your buns that one will be created for it. At that point, MAL will keep/change the rating to whatever it ends up being. So for Kanon and K-on, this is not a difference of opinions. It's just fact that these are the legit age ratings. Does mal really use north american age ratings. Then Wolf's Rain, Fate/Zero, And UBW, Danganronpa(Season 1), should be pg13. Yes, North American age ratings take priority. That's why the age rating scale is the MPAA scale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_of_America And even says "Series MPAA" in the age rating section of submitting a new anime to the database https://myanimelist.net/panel.php?go=anime_series&do=add If there isn't a NA one then they will use the UK or AUS age rating as both of those English speaking regions have their own version of MPAA. If they don't have one either, then one is made up. Some age ratings are wrong b/c the entry is old and that was the one given "by feelings" when MAL was founded. Some are wrong b/c the licensed release came after the streaming release and it was never updated from the initial "made one up" rating b/c people rarely check to submit that change. Wolf' Rain should be changed to PG13, I agree, FUNimation has the listing of TV-14 (use use the TV Parental Guidelines scale. But it's the equivalent.). https://www.funimation.com/shop/home-video/wolf-s-rain-the-complete-series-168/ Same with Fate/Zero on Aniplex's website http://fatezerousa.com/product-blu-ray-box-set-1.php As well as UBW's TV series http://www.fatestaynightusa.com/ubw/bddvd/ And UBW's Film from Sentai https://shop.sentaifilmworks.com/products/fatestay-night-unlimited-blade-works Danganronpa S1 should not change. https://www.funimation.com/shop/home-video/danganronpa-the-animation-the-complete-series-124/ It is rated at TV-MA which equals MPAA's R17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_parental_guidelines_(US)#TV-MA |
lanbladeSep 5, 2017 8:53 PM
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