Reply to Wyatt
@DigiCat Why are you assuming Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma from her upbringing as Denji? The answer is that Fujimoto doesn't give us insight into Reza's trauma but he does give us insight into Denji's. Also yes I do think being actively tortured, like physically tortured by people who actively seek to harm you, is worse than growing up in poverty, even as horrible as poverty is.
We're talking about the cruelty that the author has towards the characters here. Lelouch sacrifices himself of his own free will to protect Nunnally. He is not maimed or sexually assaulted.
I disagree that Reze and Denji had equally horrific childhoods. And yes dying at 16 is worse than not dying at 16.
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering. "Yeah Tetsuo's girlfriend got crushed to death by her own boyfriend, but Tetsuo was made insecure by his friend having a cooler bike than him! So really who's to say who had it worse..."
We're talking about the cruelty that the author has towards the characters here. Lelouch sacrifices himself of his own free will to protect Nunnally. He is not maimed or sexually assaulted.
I disagree that Reze and Denji had equally horrific childhoods. And yes dying at 16 is worse than not dying at 16.
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering. "Yeah Tetsuo's girlfriend got crushed to death by her own boyfriend, but Tetsuo was made insecure by his friend having a cooler bike than him! So really who's to say who had it worse..."
Wyatt said: The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering. "Yeah Tetsuo's girlfriend got crushed to death by her own boyfriend, but Tetsuo was made insecure by his friend having a cooler bike than him! So really who's to say who had it worse..." So do anime dwell upon the suffering of males, or do they not? You said before they never experience the trauma females do, and now you're saying they're so weak they can't handle the thought of their friends having better bikes? |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to Lucifrost
Wyatt said:
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering. "Yeah Tetsuo's girlfriend got crushed to death by her own boyfriend, but Tetsuo was made insecure by his friend having a cooler bike than him! So really who's to say who had it worse..."
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering. "Yeah Tetsuo's girlfriend got crushed to death by her own boyfriend, but Tetsuo was made insecure by his friend having a cooler bike than him! So really who's to say who had it worse..."
So do anime dwell upon the suffering of males, or do they not? You said before they never experience the trauma females do, and now you're saying they're so weak they can't handle the thought of their friends having better bikes?
| @Lucifrost The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic. Lelouch’s girlfriend’s horrible death is fodder to make us feel more sympathy for him, as we see all the tragedy he has gone through but still pushes on his journey. Women experience significantly more tragedy and trauma than men in anime, but it’s not depicted as tragedy for them but rather for the men. Their interiority is not depicted or given weight. In Akira (a film I adore, mind you) Tetsuo’s insecurity over Kaneda’s cool bike is given so much empathy by the film, as it should be! It’s worth our empathy. But Kaori’s sickeningly horrible death at the hands of her own boyfriend is given nowhere near as much empathy, and in fact that moment is really there for tetsuo to realize he’s gone out of control. In anime a splinter in a man’s foot is sadder than a tumor in a woman’s head, unless that woman is a man’s girlfriend maybe, in which case her tumor is part of his tragedy and not hers. |
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| The main ones that come to mind are Amo's past in Gachiakuta and the tragedy of Nina Tucker in Fullmetal Alchemist. |
| If I had to choose between One Piece and a girlfriend...I think I'll go with One Piece |
Reply to Sheol01
@Sheol01 Of course, Kite comes in a close 2nd, imagine being repeatedly molested by the killer of your parents, all the while knowing it WAS him. And being trained to kill innocent people. That movie is the definition of Fu**ed Up.
| @Sheol01 Kite is the rare truly feminist anime that actually depicts female suffering as worthy of our empathy and outrage. God bless Yasuomi Umetsu for his impassioned subversion of hentai |
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Reply to Wyatt
@DigiCat Why are you assuming Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma from her upbringing as Denji? The answer is that Fujimoto doesn't give us insight into Reza's trauma but he does give us insight into Denji's. Also yes I do think being actively tortured, like physically tortured by people who actively seek to harm you, is worse than growing up in poverty, even as horrible as poverty is.
We're talking about the cruelty that the author has towards the characters here. Lelouch sacrifices himself of his own free will to protect Nunnally. He is not maimed or sexually assaulted.
I disagree that Reze and Denji had equally horrific childhoods. And yes dying at 16 is worse than not dying at 16.
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering. "Yeah Tetsuo's girlfriend got crushed to death by her own boyfriend, but Tetsuo was made insecure by his friend having a cooler bike than him! So really who's to say who had it worse..."
We're talking about the cruelty that the author has towards the characters here. Lelouch sacrifices himself of his own free will to protect Nunnally. He is not maimed or sexually assaulted.
I disagree that Reze and Denji had equally horrific childhoods. And yes dying at 16 is worse than not dying at 16.
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering. "Yeah Tetsuo's girlfriend got crushed to death by her own boyfriend, but Tetsuo was made insecure by his friend having a cooler bike than him! So really who's to say who had it worse..."
Wyatt said: Why are you assuming Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma from her upbringing as Denji? So you interpreted "when both [Reze and Denji] have had just as horrific childhoods" as Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma as Denji? I guess or that or you are projecting your own attitude of minimizing Denji's trauma over Reze's (based on your OG statement "And as far as Chainsaw Man goes Reze was tortured her entire childhood and then died at 16 so yes I think she has it worse than Denji") Wyatt said: Also yes I do think being actively tortured, like physically tortured by people who actively seek to harm you, is worse than growing up in poverty, even as horrible as poverty is And i also guess no surprise you interpret Denji's situation as simple "growing up in poverty" Wyatt said: The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering Wait lemme get this straight... in one breath, you say the psychological effects is bullshit to justify i assume the "horrible things piled on women", then you say they don't even show said psychological effects, and to top it all off only men are shown to suffer psychological trauma... May i also remind you that one of your OG examples was Berserk, in which Casca, a woman, is shown to have the most severe psychological impact out of the main 3? I don't know where you got that idea, but i can 100% say it is very false To put things simply, there are good writers and there are bad writers A good writer can convey a character's trauma, be it explored in depth or using subtlety A bad writer writes misery porn And there is no miracle potion that makes one magically able to write male characters well but not female (or vice versa for that matter) Wyatt said: The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic. Lelouch’s girlfriend’s horrible death is fodder to make us feel more sympathy for him, as we see all the tragedy he has gone through but still pushes on his journey. Women experience significantly more tragedy and trauma than men in anime, but it’s not depicted as tragedy for them but rather for the men I think i'll add this to the it's absolute 🐂💩 too ^^ |
DigiCatJan 26, 12:57 PM
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Reply to DigiCat
Wyatt said:
Why are you assuming Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma from her upbringing as Denji?
Why are you assuming Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma from her upbringing as Denji?
So you interpreted "when both [Reze and Denji] have had just as horrific childhoods" as Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma as Denji? I guess or that or you are projecting your own attitude of minimizing Denji's trauma over Reze's (based on your OG statement "And as far as Chainsaw Man goes Reze was tortured her entire childhood and then died at 16 so yes I think she has it worse than Denji")
Wyatt said:
Also yes I do think being actively tortured, like physically tortured by people who actively seek to harm you, is worse than growing up in poverty, even as horrible as poverty is
Also yes I do think being actively tortured, like physically tortured by people who actively seek to harm you, is worse than growing up in poverty, even as horrible as poverty is
And i also guess no surprise you interpret Denji's situation as simple "growing up in poverty"
Wyatt said:
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering
Wait lemme get this straight... in one breath, you say the psychological effects is bullshit to justify i assume the "horrible things piled on women", then you say they don't even show said psychological effects, and to top it all off only men are shown to suffer psychological trauma... May i also remind you that one of your OG examples was Berserk, in which Casca, a woman, is shown to have the most severe psychological impact out of the main 3?
I don't know where you got that idea, but i can 100% say it is very false
To put things simply, there are good writers and there are bad writers
A good writer can convey a character's trauma, be it explored in depth or using subtlety
A bad writer writes misery porn
And there is no miracle potion that makes one magically able to write male characters well but not female (or vice versa for that matter)
Wyatt said:
The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic. Lelouch’s girlfriend’s horrible death is fodder to make us feel more sympathy for him, as we see all the tragedy he has gone through but still pushes on his journey. Women experience significantly more tragedy and trauma than men in anime, but it’s not depicted as tragedy for them but rather for the men
The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic. Lelouch’s girlfriend’s horrible death is fodder to make us feel more sympathy for him, as we see all the tragedy he has gone through but still pushes on his journey. Women experience significantly more tragedy and trauma than men in anime, but it’s not depicted as tragedy for them but rather for the men
I think i'll add this to the it's absolute 🐂💩 too ^^
| @DigiCat Psychological impact is extremely important and I care a lot about it. My point is that to say a splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurts more than a tumor in Kaori’s head because the splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurt him more psychologically is an unbalanced reading. That reading only exists because the author chose to depict Tetsuo’s psychological instability but not Kaori’s. Same for Reze and Denji. Denji gets all sorts of inner monologues that dramatize his desire for acceptance and emotional/sexual fulfillment. Aki as well gets the same treatment. Reze does not. This is all coming from the perspective that chainsaw man is one of the LEAST sexist manga in jump but even it deserves criticism. I just dont agree that there are simply good writers and bad writers. DW Griffith is one of the greatest and most influential film directors of all time but he was also a horrible racist who supported the KKK openly and all his black characters are rapists and savages. His white characters show an astonishing psychological and emotional depth however, especially for the time. He’s a great artist but his biases led to weaknesses in his films because he was unwilling to write complex black characters. There is no miracle potion. There are many great writers in this world who are also extremely sexist. This limits their ability to write female characters. Casca’s trauma is given way less interiority than Guts. We know very little about how Casca actually feels or thinks. Her rape is dramatized for how horrible it was for Guts, not how horrible it was for her. |
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Reply to DigiCat
Wyatt said:
Why are you assuming Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma from her upbringing as Denji?
Why are you assuming Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma from her upbringing as Denji?
So you interpreted "when both [Reze and Denji] have had just as horrific childhoods" as Reze doesn't have equal psychological trauma as Denji? I guess or that or you are projecting your own attitude of minimizing Denji's trauma over Reze's (based on your OG statement "And as far as Chainsaw Man goes Reze was tortured her entire childhood and then died at 16 so yes I think she has it worse than Denji")
Wyatt said:
Also yes I do think being actively tortured, like physically tortured by people who actively seek to harm you, is worse than growing up in poverty, even as horrible as poverty is
Also yes I do think being actively tortured, like physically tortured by people who actively seek to harm you, is worse than growing up in poverty, even as horrible as poverty is
And i also guess no surprise you interpret Denji's situation as simple "growing up in poverty"
Wyatt said:
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering
The psychological effects thing is more bullshit that these show-writers use to justify themselves. They can pile all sorts of horrible things on women and pretend that none of that has any psychological impact on them, but give all the weight in the world to the psychological trauma that the men have from their suffering
Wait lemme get this straight... in one breath, you say the psychological effects is bullshit to justify i assume the "horrible things piled on women", then you say they don't even show said psychological effects, and to top it all off only men are shown to suffer psychological trauma... May i also remind you that one of your OG examples was Berserk, in which Casca, a woman, is shown to have the most severe psychological impact out of the main 3?
I don't know where you got that idea, but i can 100% say it is very false
To put things simply, there are good writers and there are bad writers
A good writer can convey a character's trauma, be it explored in depth or using subtlety
A bad writer writes misery porn
And there is no miracle potion that makes one magically able to write male characters well but not female (or vice versa for that matter)
Wyatt said:
The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic. Lelouch’s girlfriend’s horrible death is fodder to make us feel more sympathy for him, as we see all the tragedy he has gone through but still pushes on his journey. Women experience significantly more tragedy and trauma than men in anime, but it’s not depicted as tragedy for them but rather for the men
The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic. Lelouch’s girlfriend’s horrible death is fodder to make us feel more sympathy for him, as we see all the tragedy he has gone through but still pushes on his journey. Women experience significantly more tragedy and trauma than men in anime, but it’s not depicted as tragedy for them but rather for the men
I think i'll add this to the it's absolute 🐂💩 too ^^
DigiCat said: And there is no miracle potion that makes one magically able to write male characters well but not female (or vice versa for that matter) I think some people are better at writing males and others are better at writing females, but that is an extension of your point that there are good and bad writers. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to Sheol01
@ComeInReiAsuka Yeah, no. When I say disgusting monster, I mean it. They erased every trace of beauty from the girl but left her the ability to see & her mind intact. Oh, yeah, and proceeded to do that to some of her surviving subjects. They had blown up her ENTIRE home world earlier in a cruel double cross. So just her personal bodyguards & handmaids were left.
| @Sheol01 Sounds like a dream. I am downloading it right now. |
Reply to Wyatt
@DigiCat Psychological impact is extremely important and I care a lot about it. My point is that to say a splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurts more than a tumor in Kaori’s head because the splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurt him more psychologically is an unbalanced reading. That reading only exists because the author chose to depict Tetsuo’s psychological instability but not Kaori’s. Same for Reze and Denji. Denji gets all sorts of inner monologues that dramatize his desire for acceptance and emotional/sexual fulfillment. Aki as well gets the same treatment. Reze does not. This is all coming from the perspective that chainsaw man is one of the LEAST sexist manga in jump but even it deserves criticism.
I just dont agree that there are simply good writers and bad writers. DW Griffith is one of the greatest and most influential film directors of all time but he was also a horrible racist who supported the KKK openly and all his black characters are rapists and savages. His white characters show an astonishing psychological and emotional depth however, especially for the time. He’s a great artist but his biases led to weaknesses in his films because he was unwilling to write complex black characters.
There is no miracle potion. There are many great writers in this world who are also extremely sexist. This limits their ability to write female characters.
Casca’s trauma is given way less interiority than Guts. We know very little about how Casca actually feels or thinks. Her rape is dramatized for how horrible it was for Guts, not how horrible it was for her.
I just dont agree that there are simply good writers and bad writers. DW Griffith is one of the greatest and most influential film directors of all time but he was also a horrible racist who supported the KKK openly and all his black characters are rapists and savages. His white characters show an astonishing psychological and emotional depth however, especially for the time. He’s a great artist but his biases led to weaknesses in his films because he was unwilling to write complex black characters.
There is no miracle potion. There are many great writers in this world who are also extremely sexist. This limits their ability to write female characters.
Casca’s trauma is given way less interiority than Guts. We know very little about how Casca actually feels or thinks. Her rape is dramatized for how horrible it was for Guts, not how horrible it was for her.
Wyatt said: Psychological impact is extremely important and I care a lot about it Great! Care to give some examples? Which anime do you think do a good job illustrating this? Which ones do you think fail at it? Cuz this was totally missing from your OG post Wyatt said: My point is that to say a splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurts more than a tumor in Kaori’s head because the splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurt him more psychologically is an unbalanced reading Well you're def right this example is an unbalanced reading... reason why nothing of the sort has ever been written in entertainment hiistory (or at the very least i hope not, cuz this would be the absolute bottom of the toilet bad writing) Wyatt said: Same for Reze and Denji. Denji gets all sorts of inner monologues that dramatize his desire for acceptance and emotional/sexual fulfillment. Aki as well gets the same treatment. Reze does not. This is all coming from the perspective that chainsaw man is one of the LEAST sexist manga in jump but even it deserves criticism So your critique is that Reze, the lead villain of one arc, didn't get as much inner monologues and character exploration as the MC and the MC's mentor who's arguably the second most prominant character of part 1? Look, i'm not the biggest fan of part 2 of CSM, but you might wanna give it a couple of volumes before stating "CSM doesn't spend as much time on it's female characters psyche as it's male ones" Not to mention that when you compare Reze to other characters in her same category, aka each arc's lead villain, she got the damn most developement out of all of them |
|
Reply to DigiCat
Wyatt said:
Psychological impact is extremely important and I care a lot about it
Psychological impact is extremely important and I care a lot about it
Great! Care to give some examples? Which anime do you think do a good job illustrating this? Which ones do you think fail at it? Cuz this was totally missing from your OG post
Wyatt said:
My point is that to say a splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurts more than a tumor in Kaori’s head because the splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurt him more psychologically is an unbalanced reading
My point is that to say a splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurts more than a tumor in Kaori’s head because the splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurt him more psychologically is an unbalanced reading
Well you're def right this example is an unbalanced reading... reason why nothing of the sort has ever been written in entertainment hiistory (or at the very least i hope not, cuz this would be the absolute bottom of the toilet bad writing)
Wyatt said:
Same for Reze and Denji. Denji gets all sorts of inner monologues that dramatize his desire for acceptance and emotional/sexual fulfillment. Aki as well gets the same treatment. Reze does not. This is all coming from the perspective that chainsaw man is one of the LEAST sexist manga in jump but even it deserves criticism
Same for Reze and Denji. Denji gets all sorts of inner monologues that dramatize his desire for acceptance and emotional/sexual fulfillment. Aki as well gets the same treatment. Reze does not. This is all coming from the perspective that chainsaw man is one of the LEAST sexist manga in jump but even it deserves criticism
So your critique is that Reze, the lead villain of one arc, didn't get as much inner monologues and character exploration as the MC and the MC's mentor who's arguably the second most prominant character of part 1?
Look, i'm not the biggest fan of part 2 of CSM, but you might wanna give it a couple of volumes before stating "CSM doesn't spend as much time on it's female characters psyche as it's male ones"
Not to mention that when you compare Reze to other characters in her same category, aka each arc's lead villain, she got the damn most developement out of all of them
| @DigiCat Sure here are some examples of psychological anime that I think do a phenomenal job expressing the interiority of their characters: One would actually be Akira, for all the male characters, but if it has to be one that does a great job even with the female characters I'd have to say Zankyou no Terror. As a viewer one is able to feel all the complexities of Five, Nine, Twelve and Lisa's perspectives on life, suffering and love. It is tremendously moving. If we don't count the female characters I would also say Hunter x Hunter is really fantastic at getting you into people's heads and seeing how they came to the conclusions they came to. As far as shows that fail at it, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Fooly Cooly come to mind as works of colossal narcissism that don't give any psychological insight beyond "sometimes its time to grow up and get rid of your childhood hobbies". You are seriously under-read if you think nothing like that has ever been written or celebrated in entertainment history. Watch Birth of a Nation. Watch Battleship Potemkin. Watch Triumph of the Will. Read Huckleberry Finn. Read Heart of Darkness. You will see there, in addition to phenomenal artistry that has influenced everything we see today, the capacity in human beings for the opposite of empathy. I have read 10 volumes of CSM Part 2. It's good! I think Fujimoto is probably the author doing the second best work at Jump to fight misogyny (behind Gege Akutami). But that doesn't mean he's perfect. He is still very narcissistic about male problems. Denji being unsatisfied the first time he touched a woman's boobs is more important to him than Power's corpse being abandoned naked in the woods. Asa is a good character though. |
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Reply to DigiCat
Wyatt said:
Psychological impact is extremely important and I care a lot about it
Psychological impact is extremely important and I care a lot about it
Great! Care to give some examples? Which anime do you think do a good job illustrating this? Which ones do you think fail at it? Cuz this was totally missing from your OG post
Wyatt said:
My point is that to say a splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurts more than a tumor in Kaori’s head because the splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurt him more psychologically is an unbalanced reading
My point is that to say a splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurts more than a tumor in Kaori’s head because the splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurt him more psychologically is an unbalanced reading
Well you're def right this example is an unbalanced reading... reason why nothing of the sort has ever been written in entertainment hiistory (or at the very least i hope not, cuz this would be the absolute bottom of the toilet bad writing)
Wyatt said:
Same for Reze and Denji. Denji gets all sorts of inner monologues that dramatize his desire for acceptance and emotional/sexual fulfillment. Aki as well gets the same treatment. Reze does not. This is all coming from the perspective that chainsaw man is one of the LEAST sexist manga in jump but even it deserves criticism
Same for Reze and Denji. Denji gets all sorts of inner monologues that dramatize his desire for acceptance and emotional/sexual fulfillment. Aki as well gets the same treatment. Reze does not. This is all coming from the perspective that chainsaw man is one of the LEAST sexist manga in jump but even it deserves criticism
So your critique is that Reze, the lead villain of one arc, didn't get as much inner monologues and character exploration as the MC and the MC's mentor who's arguably the second most prominant character of part 1?
Look, i'm not the biggest fan of part 2 of CSM, but you might wanna give it a couple of volumes before stating "CSM doesn't spend as much time on it's female characters psyche as it's male ones"
Not to mention that when you compare Reze to other characters in her same category, aka each arc's lead villain, she got the damn most developement out of all of them
DigiCat said: So your critique is that Reze, the lead villain of one arc, didn't get as much inner monologues and character exploration as the MC and the MC's mentor who's arguably the second most prominant character of part 1? Look, i'm not the biggest fan of part 2 of CSM, but you might wanna give it a couple of volumes before stating "CSM doesn't spend as much time on it's female characters psyche as it's male ones" Not to mention that when you compare Reze to other characters in her same category, aka each arc's lead villain, she got the damn most developement out of all of them This describes the problem with the Bechdel test. Because a protagonist will appear in the majority of scenes, anything with a male protagonist likely fails the Bechdel test. In practice it therefore tests the protagonist's sex rather than testing misogyny. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to Wyatt
@DigiCat Psychological impact is extremely important and I care a lot about it. My point is that to say a splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurts more than a tumor in Kaori’s head because the splinter in Tetsuo’s toe hurt him more psychologically is an unbalanced reading. That reading only exists because the author chose to depict Tetsuo’s psychological instability but not Kaori’s. Same for Reze and Denji. Denji gets all sorts of inner monologues that dramatize his desire for acceptance and emotional/sexual fulfillment. Aki as well gets the same treatment. Reze does not. This is all coming from the perspective that chainsaw man is one of the LEAST sexist manga in jump but even it deserves criticism.
I just dont agree that there are simply good writers and bad writers. DW Griffith is one of the greatest and most influential film directors of all time but he was also a horrible racist who supported the KKK openly and all his black characters are rapists and savages. His white characters show an astonishing psychological and emotional depth however, especially for the time. He’s a great artist but his biases led to weaknesses in his films because he was unwilling to write complex black characters.
There is no miracle potion. There are many great writers in this world who are also extremely sexist. This limits their ability to write female characters.
Casca’s trauma is given way less interiority than Guts. We know very little about how Casca actually feels or thinks. Her rape is dramatized for how horrible it was for Guts, not how horrible it was for her.
I just dont agree that there are simply good writers and bad writers. DW Griffith is one of the greatest and most influential film directors of all time but he was also a horrible racist who supported the KKK openly and all his black characters are rapists and savages. His white characters show an astonishing psychological and emotional depth however, especially for the time. He’s a great artist but his biases led to weaknesses in his films because he was unwilling to write complex black characters.
There is no miracle potion. There are many great writers in this world who are also extremely sexist. This limits their ability to write female characters.
Casca’s trauma is given way less interiority than Guts. We know very little about how Casca actually feels or thinks. Her rape is dramatized for how horrible it was for Guts, not how horrible it was for her.
| @Wyatt Of course Reze gets less monologues, she is a third rate side character, who has overall very few pages dedicated to her, while the movie can only possibly exists by blowing up the action panels into really long anime original scenes. And you should see women authors writing men, it's so bad so often. |
*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧May the winds of change transform you entirely.*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ |
Reply to Wyatt
@Sheol01 Kite is the rare truly feminist anime that actually depicts female suffering as worthy of our empathy and outrage. God bless Yasuomi Umetsu for his impassioned subversion of hentai
| @Wyatt The only real feminist anime is https://myanimelist.net/anime/40128/Arte because it's hilarious to see the protagonist work her ass off lifting heavy shit all day long. |
*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧May the winds of change transform you entirely.*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ |
| Vueko from Made in Abyss , it was gruesome. Add Irumyuui too, her backstory made my stomach churn. |
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Simply by sheer volume, it's gotta be her But if you mean density of suffering condensed to one event or so, I'm not sure. |
 |
| Stabbing an idol to death just because she had kids at a young age? That's the cruelest thing can happen to a female character I can think of. |
Bury the Light Reply to Wyatt
@DigiCat Sure here are some examples of psychological anime that I think do a phenomenal job expressing the interiority of their characters:
One would actually be Akira, for all the male characters, but if it has to be one that does a great job even with the female characters I'd have to say Zankyou no Terror. As a viewer one is able to feel all the complexities of Five, Nine, Twelve and Lisa's perspectives on life, suffering and love. It is tremendously moving. If we don't count the female characters I would also say Hunter x Hunter is really fantastic at getting you into people's heads and seeing how they came to the conclusions they came to. As far as shows that fail at it, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Fooly Cooly come to mind as works of colossal narcissism that don't give any psychological insight beyond "sometimes its time to grow up and get rid of your childhood hobbies".
You are seriously under-read if you think nothing like that has ever been written or celebrated in entertainment history. Watch Birth of a Nation. Watch Battleship Potemkin. Watch Triumph of the Will. Read Huckleberry Finn. Read Heart of Darkness. You will see there, in addition to phenomenal artistry that has influenced everything we see today, the capacity in human beings for the opposite of empathy.
I have read 10 volumes of CSM Part 2. It's good! I think Fujimoto is probably the author doing the second best work at Jump to fight misogyny (behind Gege Akutami). But that doesn't mean he's perfect. He is still very narcissistic about male problems. Denji being unsatisfied the first time he touched a woman's boobs is more important to him than Power's corpse being abandoned naked in the woods. Asa is a good character though.
One would actually be Akira, for all the male characters, but if it has to be one that does a great job even with the female characters I'd have to say Zankyou no Terror. As a viewer one is able to feel all the complexities of Five, Nine, Twelve and Lisa's perspectives on life, suffering and love. It is tremendously moving. If we don't count the female characters I would also say Hunter x Hunter is really fantastic at getting you into people's heads and seeing how they came to the conclusions they came to. As far as shows that fail at it, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Fooly Cooly come to mind as works of colossal narcissism that don't give any psychological insight beyond "sometimes its time to grow up and get rid of your childhood hobbies".
You are seriously under-read if you think nothing like that has ever been written or celebrated in entertainment history. Watch Birth of a Nation. Watch Battleship Potemkin. Watch Triumph of the Will. Read Huckleberry Finn. Read Heart of Darkness. You will see there, in addition to phenomenal artistry that has influenced everything we see today, the capacity in human beings for the opposite of empathy.
I have read 10 volumes of CSM Part 2. It's good! I think Fujimoto is probably the author doing the second best work at Jump to fight misogyny (behind Gege Akutami). But that doesn't mean he's perfect. He is still very narcissistic about male problems. Denji being unsatisfied the first time he touched a woman's boobs is more important to him than Power's corpse being abandoned naked in the woods. Asa is a good character though.
Wyatt said: Sure here are some examples of psychological anime that I think do a phenomenal job expressing the interiority of their characters: One would actually be Akira, for all the male characters, but if it has to be one that does a great job even with the female characters I'd have to say Zankyou no Terror. As a viewer one is able to feel all the complexities of Five, Nine, Twelve and Lisa's perspectives on life, suffering and love. It is tremendously moving. If we don't count the female characters I would also say Hunter x Hunter is really fantastic at getting you into people's heads and seeing how they came to the conclusions they came to. As far as shows that fail at it, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Fooly Cooly come to mind as works of colossal narcissism that don't give any psychological insight beyond "sometimes its time to grow up and get rid of your childhood hobbies". Interesting Personally i didn't think Akira did the best job and exploring the characters psyche Will def give Zankyou no Terror a watch I do 100% agree Hunter x Hunter does an impeccable job delving into the characters minds (especially the 1999 version), but i don't get the "if we don't count the female characters", to put things in perspective, i'm watching Oniisama e right now, and i could say the same thing in reverse "if we don't count the male characters", but i don't expect the male side characters to get even half as much of focus as the female ones in a show where the whole main cast is female, same with HxH, a show where the main cast is all male, i'm not expecting the side characters to get as much focus on them as the main, regardless of gender I also wouldn't say HxH (1999) is bad at developing it's side characters, personally i found Pakunoda's developement in the last part of the York New arc to be very compelling Wyatt said: He is still very narcissistic about male problems. Denji being unsatisfied the first time he touched a woman's boobs is more important to him than Power's corpse being abandoned naked in the woods Heving read and watched the scenes in question i don't see how you came to the conclusion that Denji's dissatisfaction at touching boobs for the first time carried more weight than Power naked in the woods I don't even see how the 2 scenes are comparable given how different the tone of each one is, one is exploring a horrible situation while the other is exploring the aftermath of one If i had to compare Power abandoned naked in the woods to Denji, i'd compare it to his childhood, being left to his own devices in debt to the yakuza, and i wouldn't say one is made more important than the other |
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| Probably anything that happened in school days, the amount of sexual assault that was normalized really pissed me off |
Reply to DigiCat
Wyatt said:
Sure here are some examples of psychological anime that I think do a phenomenal job expressing the interiority of their characters:
One would actually be Akira, for all the male characters, but if it has to be one that does a great job even with the female characters I'd have to say Zankyou no Terror. As a viewer one is able to feel all the complexities of Five, Nine, Twelve and Lisa's perspectives on life, suffering and love. It is tremendously moving. If we don't count the female characters I would also say Hunter x Hunter is really fantastic at getting you into people's heads and seeing how they came to the conclusions they came to. As far as shows that fail at it, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Fooly Cooly come to mind as works of colossal narcissism that don't give any psychological insight beyond "sometimes its time to grow up and get rid of your childhood hobbies".
Sure here are some examples of psychological anime that I think do a phenomenal job expressing the interiority of their characters:
One would actually be Akira, for all the male characters, but if it has to be one that does a great job even with the female characters I'd have to say Zankyou no Terror. As a viewer one is able to feel all the complexities of Five, Nine, Twelve and Lisa's perspectives on life, suffering and love. It is tremendously moving. If we don't count the female characters I would also say Hunter x Hunter is really fantastic at getting you into people's heads and seeing how they came to the conclusions they came to. As far as shows that fail at it, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Fooly Cooly come to mind as works of colossal narcissism that don't give any psychological insight beyond "sometimes its time to grow up and get rid of your childhood hobbies".
Interesting
Personally i didn't think Akira did the best job and exploring the characters psyche
Will def give Zankyou no Terror a watch
I do 100% agree Hunter x Hunter does an impeccable job delving into the characters minds (especially the 1999 version), but i don't get the "if we don't count the female characters", to put things in perspective, i'm watching Oniisama e right now, and i could say the same thing in reverse "if we don't count the male characters", but i don't expect the male side characters to get even half as much of focus as the female ones in a show where the whole main cast is female, same with HxH, a show where the main cast is all male, i'm not expecting the side characters to get as much focus on them as the main, regardless of gender
I also wouldn't say HxH (1999) is bad at developing it's side characters, personally i found Pakunoda's developement in the last part of the York New arc to be very compelling
Wyatt said:
He is still very narcissistic about male problems. Denji being unsatisfied the first time he touched a woman's boobs is more important to him than Power's corpse being abandoned naked in the woods
He is still very narcissistic about male problems. Denji being unsatisfied the first time he touched a woman's boobs is more important to him than Power's corpse being abandoned naked in the woods
Heving read and watched the scenes in question i don't see how you came to the conclusion that Denji's dissatisfaction at touching boobs for the first time carried more weight than Power naked in the woods
I don't even see how the 2 scenes are comparable given how different the tone of each one is, one is exploring a horrible situation while the other is exploring the aftermath of one
If i had to compare Power abandoned naked in the woods to Denji, i'd compare it to his childhood, being left to his own devices in debt to the yakuza, and i wouldn't say one is made more important than the other
| @DigiCat What's extra funny about the Power vs Denji comparison is that Power isn't even human, so being naked in the woods is preferable to her than getting captured and forced to work as a devil hunter, even if eventually she gets used to it. |
*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧May the winds of change transform you entirely.*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ |
| Naomi in Death Note probably got theworst treatment of a lot of characters, imagine committing suicideand your body never being found while the only thing you did wrong was try to find your dead husband |
| My waifu is the most wonderful waifu. Mai Valentine. We're freaking out that we're running out of time, but to do what? Should i stop and think of that? Is there something i could do to slow it down? Live in a day for once, instead of watch it sprinting by |
Reply to JaniSIr
@DigiCat What's extra funny about the Power vs Denji comparison is that Power isn't even human, so being naked in the woods is preferable to her than getting captured and forced to work as a devil hunter, even if eventually she gets used to it.
| @JaniSIr Ehh... she's not exactly in an ideal situation with the devil hinters, but she wasn't exactly thriving naked in the woods either |
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| Damn, imagine if Rei Ayanami went through some of this shit listed in the topic. |
Reply to Wyatt
@DigiCat You're living in a fantasy land. Women in anime get treated like utter shit. Compare the stuff that happens to Shinji to the stuff that happens to Asuka, Misato and Rei.
| @Wyatt Actually shounen anime is known for giving it's main characters very gory, awful backstories, treated like crap all over. Its a trope. Women don't get that much. |
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Reply to Wyatt
@Lucifrost The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic. Lelouch’s girlfriend’s horrible death is fodder to make us feel more sympathy for him, as we see all the tragedy he has gone through but still pushes on his journey. Women experience significantly more tragedy and trauma than men in anime, but it’s not depicted as tragedy for them but rather for the men. Their interiority is not depicted or given weight. In Akira (a film I adore, mind you) Tetsuo’s insecurity over Kaneda’s cool bike is given so much empathy by the film, as it should be! It’s worth our empathy. But Kaori’s sickeningly horrible death at the hands of her own boyfriend is given nowhere near as much empathy, and in fact that moment is really there for tetsuo to realize he’s gone out of control. In anime a splinter in a man’s foot is sadder than a tumor in a woman’s head, unless that woman is a man’s girlfriend maybe, in which case her tumor is part of his tragedy and not hers.
Wyatt said: The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic. That claim would work way better if it was about "media with male protagonists". |
| Being written by Urobuchi has to be the worst thing that can happen to an anime female character. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
Reply to JaniSIr
@DigiCat What's extra funny about the Power vs Denji comparison is that Power isn't even human, so being naked in the woods is preferable to her than getting captured and forced to work as a devil hunter, even if eventually she gets used to it.
| @JaniSIr power’s body belonged to a human when she was raped and killed, then the power Devil possessed her body. |
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Reply to logopolis
Wyatt said:
The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic.
The way anime works is that it treats the psychological experiences of men as inordinately tragic to make them seem noble and heroic.
That claim would work way better if it was about "media with male protagonists".
| @logopolis we’re talking specifically about anime which I do think is particularly bad with this, but yeah it’s true about other forms of media too. |
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Reply to JaniSIr
@Wyatt Of course Reze gets less monologues, she is a third rate side character, who has overall very few pages dedicated to her, while the movie can only possibly exists by blowing up the action panels into really long anime original scenes.
And you should see women authors writing men, it's so bad so often.
And you should see women authors writing men, it's so bad so often.
| @JaniSIr I think Edward Elric is a much better character and a much more respectful character (and written by a woman!) than any female character in a shonen manga I’ve ever read written by a man. But yes women can also be sexist Reze did not need such a sadistic backstory. Just because someone is a side character (calling her third rate is silly, she’s the first woman that shows romantic feelings for Denji) doesn’t mean you can torture them and not give them the empathy they deserve for that |
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Reply to DigiCat
Wyatt said:
Sure here are some examples of psychological anime that I think do a phenomenal job expressing the interiority of their characters:
One would actually be Akira, for all the male characters, but if it has to be one that does a great job even with the female characters I'd have to say Zankyou no Terror. As a viewer one is able to feel all the complexities of Five, Nine, Twelve and Lisa's perspectives on life, suffering and love. It is tremendously moving. If we don't count the female characters I would also say Hunter x Hunter is really fantastic at getting you into people's heads and seeing how they came to the conclusions they came to. As far as shows that fail at it, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Fooly Cooly come to mind as works of colossal narcissism that don't give any psychological insight beyond "sometimes its time to grow up and get rid of your childhood hobbies".
Sure here are some examples of psychological anime that I think do a phenomenal job expressing the interiority of their characters:
One would actually be Akira, for all the male characters, but if it has to be one that does a great job even with the female characters I'd have to say Zankyou no Terror. As a viewer one is able to feel all the complexities of Five, Nine, Twelve and Lisa's perspectives on life, suffering and love. It is tremendously moving. If we don't count the female characters I would also say Hunter x Hunter is really fantastic at getting you into people's heads and seeing how they came to the conclusions they came to. As far as shows that fail at it, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Fooly Cooly come to mind as works of colossal narcissism that don't give any psychological insight beyond "sometimes its time to grow up and get rid of your childhood hobbies".
Interesting
Personally i didn't think Akira did the best job and exploring the characters psyche
Will def give Zankyou no Terror a watch
I do 100% agree Hunter x Hunter does an impeccable job delving into the characters minds (especially the 1999 version), but i don't get the "if we don't count the female characters", to put things in perspective, i'm watching Oniisama e right now, and i could say the same thing in reverse "if we don't count the male characters", but i don't expect the male side characters to get even half as much of focus as the female ones in a show where the whole main cast is female, same with HxH, a show where the main cast is all male, i'm not expecting the side characters to get as much focus on them as the main, regardless of gender
I also wouldn't say HxH (1999) is bad at developing it's side characters, personally i found Pakunoda's developement in the last part of the York New arc to be very compelling
Wyatt said:
He is still very narcissistic about male problems. Denji being unsatisfied the first time he touched a woman's boobs is more important to him than Power's corpse being abandoned naked in the woods
He is still very narcissistic about male problems. Denji being unsatisfied the first time he touched a woman's boobs is more important to him than Power's corpse being abandoned naked in the woods
Heving read and watched the scenes in question i don't see how you came to the conclusion that Denji's dissatisfaction at touching boobs for the first time carried more weight than Power naked in the woods
I don't even see how the 2 scenes are comparable given how different the tone of each one is, one is exploring a horrible situation while the other is exploring the aftermath of one
If i had to compare Power abandoned naked in the woods to Denji, i'd compare it to his childhood, being left to his own devices in debt to the yakuza, and i wouldn't say one is made more important than the other
| @DigiCat I do quite like Pakunoda. I especially like that shot where she’s staring at Gon and Killua’s feet as they walk ahead of her and she realizes how genuine and healthy their friendship is compared to the Spiders. Just think about how much time Fujimoto dedicates to Denji touching power’s boobs and its aftermath. I want to say that I think the scene of him touchiNg power’s boobs is a good scene. Think about how dramatic and philosophical denji’s monologue about it is. When you slow moment down and focus on every detail, and have the character extensively inner monologue about their complex feelings on it, and give them multiple reaction shots of their shocked or pained or confused expressions, you’re giving a moment IMPORTANCE. You’re choosing what to focus on, as an artist. Fujimoto does not give that much empathy (as expressed through the formal devices of panel choices, dialogue and monologue choices, and the compression vs elongation of time) to anything that happens to a woman until part 2. |
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Reply to Wyatt
@JaniSIr I think Edward Elric is a much better character and a much more respectful character (and written by a woman!) than any female character in a shonen manga I’ve ever read written by a man. But yes women can also be sexist
Reze did not need such a sadistic backstory. Just because someone is a side character (calling her third rate is silly, she’s the first woman that shows romantic feelings for Denji) doesn’t mean you can torture them and not give them the empathy they deserve for that
Reze did not need such a sadistic backstory. Just because someone is a side character (calling her third rate is silly, she’s the first woman that shows romantic feelings for Denji) doesn’t mean you can torture them and not give them the empathy they deserve for that
Wyatt said: I think Edward Elric is a much better character and a much more respectful character (and written by a woman!) than any female character in a shonen manga I’ve ever read written by a man. Why does it matter if they're shounen? If you want respectful females then you should read something with respectful females and quit complaining that there aren't any in shounen manga. Even though there are. https://myanimelist.net/character/7814/Neko_Musume https://myanimelist.net/character/6321/Maetel https://myanimelist.net/character/73871/Chocola https://myanimelist.net/character/3182/Arale_Norimaki https://myanimelist.net/character/2756/Madoka_Ayukawa https://myanimelist.net/character/11222/Jolyne_Kuujou https://myanimelist.net/character/1743/Ai_Haibara https://myanimelist.net/character/2033/Rosette_Christopher https://myanimelist.net/character/121595/Mary_Saotome https://myanimelist.net/character/137599/Shiva https://myanimelist.net/character/197074/Nico_Wakatsuki |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to Lucifrost
Wyatt said:
I think Edward Elric is a much better character and a much more respectful character (and written by a woman!) than any female character in a shonen manga I’ve ever read written by a man.
I think Edward Elric is a much better character and a much more respectful character (and written by a woman!) than any female character in a shonen manga I’ve ever read written by a man.
Why does it matter if they're shounen? If you want respectful females then you should read something with respectful females and quit complaining that there aren't any in shounen manga. Even though there are.
https://myanimelist.net/character/7814/Neko_Musume
https://myanimelist.net/character/6321/Maetel
https://myanimelist.net/character/73871/Chocola
https://myanimelist.net/character/3182/Arale_Norimaki
https://myanimelist.net/character/2756/Madoka_Ayukawa
https://myanimelist.net/character/11222/Jolyne_Kuujou
https://myanimelist.net/character/1743/Ai_Haibara
https://myanimelist.net/character/2033/Rosette_Christopher
https://myanimelist.net/character/121595/Mary_Saotome
https://myanimelist.net/character/137599/Shiva
https://myanimelist.net/character/197074/Nico_Wakatsuki
| @Lucifrost The reason why I care is because I’m not the only person who exists. I can sit in my room and read Sylvia Plath all day if I want, that doesn’t change that millions of people (including myself, because I do like these series, things can be flawed and also great) read Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, Fairy Tail, Hero Academia, Chainsaw Man, etc. Because these works matter both artistically and culturally, it is important that the systems which limit them from achieving greater aesthetic and moral heights are challenged. The recent episode of Jujutsu Kaisen was incredible. So these changes are possible. And the conversation is not just about Shonen manga but anime as a whole, which, yeah largely is seriously misogynistic. There are exceptions like Nana, the works of Shinichiro Watanabe, Osamu Dezaki, and Yasuomi Umetsu, anything related to Natsume Ono or Akiko Higashimura, Chihayafuru, Char’s Counterattack, probably other stuff I haven’t seen. But we are in a culture where the vast majority of beloved, popular or even great anime are at the very least notably sexist. This is a problem. I cannot understand how someone could not see this as a problem. Avoiding it is not a solution. |
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Reply to Wyatt
@Lucifrost The reason why I care is because I’m not the only person who exists. I can sit in my room and read Sylvia Plath all day if I want, that doesn’t change that millions of people (including myself, because I do like these series, things can be flawed and also great) read Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, Fairy Tail, Hero Academia, Chainsaw Man, etc. Because these works matter both artistically and culturally, it is important that the systems which limit them from achieving greater aesthetic and moral heights are challenged. The recent episode of Jujutsu Kaisen was incredible. So these changes are possible.
And the conversation is not just about Shonen manga but anime as a whole, which, yeah largely is seriously misogynistic. There are exceptions like Nana, the works of Shinichiro Watanabe, Osamu Dezaki, and Yasuomi Umetsu, anything related to Natsume Ono or Akiko Higashimura, Chihayafuru, Char’s Counterattack, probably other stuff I haven’t seen. But we are in a culture where the vast majority of beloved, popular or even great anime are at the very least notably sexist. This is a problem. I cannot understand how someone could not see this as a problem. Avoiding it is not a solution.
And the conversation is not just about Shonen manga but anime as a whole, which, yeah largely is seriously misogynistic. There are exceptions like Nana, the works of Shinichiro Watanabe, Osamu Dezaki, and Yasuomi Umetsu, anything related to Natsume Ono or Akiko Higashimura, Chihayafuru, Char’s Counterattack, probably other stuff I haven’t seen. But we are in a culture where the vast majority of beloved, popular or even great anime are at the very least notably sexist. This is a problem. I cannot understand how someone could not see this as a problem. Avoiding it is not a solution.
Wyatt said: it is important that the systems which limit them from achieving greater aesthetic and moral heights are challenged. They're challenged all the time. You're just not acknowledging the vast majority of anime that do so. Wyatt said: And the conversation is not just about Shonen manga but anime as a whole, which, yeah largely is seriously misogynistic. There are exceptions like... ...Char’s Counterattack Alright, I've had enough of this conversation. There is nothing more that I can say after seeing your standards. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to Wyatt
@JaniSIr power’s body belonged to a human when she was raped and killed, then the power Devil possessed her body.
| @Wyatt From a devil's perspective that's just a free corpse. Wyatt said: @JaniSIr I think Edward Elric is a much better character and a much more respectful character (and written by a woman!) than any female character in a shonen manga I’ve ever read written by a man. But yes women can also be sexist Yea, well I don't know what you have read. Wyatt said: Reze did not need such a sadistic backstory. Just because someone is a side character (calling her third rate is silly, she’s the first woman that shows romantic feelings for Denji) doesn’t mean you can torture them and not give them the empathy they deserve for that She has like no screen time though, especially in the manga... And yet she's a fan favourite. Kind of a self own, huh? |
*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧May the winds of change transform you entirely.*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ |
Reply to JaniSIr
@Wyatt From a devil's perspective that's just a free corpse.
Yea, well I don't know what you have read.
She has like no screen time though, especially in the manga...
And yet she's a fan favourite.
Kind of a self own, huh?
Wyatt said:
@JaniSIr I think Edward Elric is a much better character and a much more respectful character (and written by a woman!) than any female character in a shonen manga I’ve ever read written by a man. But yes women can also be sexist
@JaniSIr I think Edward Elric is a much better character and a much more respectful character (and written by a woman!) than any female character in a shonen manga I’ve ever read written by a man. But yes women can also be sexist
Yea, well I don't know what you have read.
Wyatt said:
Reze did not need such a sadistic backstory. Just because someone is a side character (calling her third rate is silly, she’s the first woman that shows romantic feelings for Denji) doesn’t mean you can torture them and not give them the empathy they deserve for that
Reze did not need such a sadistic backstory. Just because someone is a side character (calling her third rate is silly, she’s the first woman that shows romantic feelings for Denji) doesn’t mean you can torture them and not give them the empathy they deserve for that
She has like no screen time though, especially in the manga...
And yet she's a fan favourite.
Kind of a self own, huh?
| @JaniSIr I mean you can check my mal list if you wanna know what I’ve read it’s right here… |
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Reply to JaniSIr
@Wyatt We have 2 manga shared, so what's the point.
| @JaniSIr now that I have checked your MAL and I see that cross ange is your favorite anime I respect you. Just keep your eyes peeled. Also reze is a popular character because she’s a good one! Just not as good of one as Denji or aki. Chainsaw man is not much of a problem in isolation it’s just one of many symptoms of a sexist industry which I thought all anime fans were aware of |
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| Off-screen marriage with an unnamed farmer who used to throw rocks at her when they were children, and the hack writer using her only as a red herring. |
Reply to Wyatt
@DigiCat I do quite like Pakunoda. I especially like that shot where she’s staring at Gon and Killua’s feet as they walk ahead of her and she realizes how genuine and healthy their friendship is compared to the Spiders.
Just think about how much time Fujimoto dedicates to Denji touching power’s boobs and its aftermath. I want to say that I think the scene of him touchiNg power’s boobs is a good scene. Think about how dramatic and philosophical denji’s monologue about it is. When you slow moment down and focus on every detail, and have the character extensively inner monologue about their complex feelings on it, and give them multiple reaction shots of their shocked or pained or confused expressions, you’re giving a moment IMPORTANCE. You’re choosing what to focus on, as an artist. Fujimoto does not give that much empathy (as expressed through the formal devices of panel choices, dialogue and monologue choices, and the compression vs elongation of time) to anything that happens to a woman until part 2.
Just think about how much time Fujimoto dedicates to Denji touching power’s boobs and its aftermath. I want to say that I think the scene of him touchiNg power’s boobs is a good scene. Think about how dramatic and philosophical denji’s monologue about it is. When you slow moment down and focus on every detail, and have the character extensively inner monologue about their complex feelings on it, and give them multiple reaction shots of their shocked or pained or confused expressions, you’re giving a moment IMPORTANCE. You’re choosing what to focus on, as an artist. Fujimoto does not give that much empathy (as expressed through the formal devices of panel choices, dialogue and monologue choices, and the compression vs elongation of time) to anything that happens to a woman until part 2.
| @Wyatt Wyatt said: Just think about how much time Fujimoto dedicates to Denji touching power’s boobs and its aftermath. I want to say that I think the scene of him touchiNg power’s boobs is a good scene. Think about how dramatic and philosophical denji’s monologue about it is. When you slow moment down and focus on every detail, and have the character extensively inner monologue about their complex feelings on it, and give them multiple reaction shots of their shocked or pained or confused expressions, you’re giving a moment IMPORTANCE. You’re choosing what to focus on, as an artist Not an eccessive amount of time, and while i do agree the scene does hols a lot of importance to Denji's character developement, i wouldn't call it philosophical, it's a coming of age scene which has more layers to it because of Denji's past. The inner monologue is also not very extensive, i'd say it's just right, not too long not too short Wyatt said: Fujimoto does not give that much empathy (as expressed through the formal devices of panel choices, dialogue and monologue choices, and the compression vs elongation of time) to anything that happens to a woman until part 2. He doesn't give empathy to Power naked in the woods? Or maybe you think that because you think the focus of that scene is her being naked in the woods? I hate to break it to you, but Power being abandoned naked in the woods was not the point of the scene, let alone it being about the woman she possessed, which btw Wyatt said: power’s body belonged to a human when she was raped and killed, then the power Devil possessed her body. It is not revealed how she died, what you have up there is a theory, not a fact But back to the scene in question, it was about Power's bond with Nyako, how she learns to have empathy for another living being, and how she learns what it's like to feel pain when she loses him, that is where Power's character developement lies, and that is where time was spent on giving her inner monologues, just as much time as Denji's boob scene |
|
| Sakura dealing with Sasukes emo toxicty then marrying him and being turned into a housewife |
| Casca from Berserk. Rape in front of your lover by your crush and raped by monsters. Then to forget everything and become a womanchild. |
Reply to DigiCat
@Wyatt
Not an eccessive amount of time, and while i do agree the scene does hols a lot of importance to Denji's character developement, i wouldn't call it philosophical, it's a coming of age scene which has more layers to it because of Denji's past. The inner monologue is also not very extensive, i'd say it's just right, not too long not too short
He doesn't give empathy to Power naked in the woods? Or maybe you think that because you think the focus of that scene is her being naked in the woods?
I hate to break it to you, but Power being abandoned naked in the woods was not the point of the scene, let alone it being about the woman she possessed, which btw
It is not revealed how she died, what you have up there is a theory, not a fact
But back to the scene in question, it was about Power's bond with Nyako, how she learns to have empathy for another living being, and how she learns what it's like to feel pain when she loses him, that is where Power's character developement lies, and that is where time was spent on giving her inner monologues, just as much time as Denji's boob scene
Wyatt said:
Just think about how much time Fujimoto dedicates to Denji touching power’s boobs and its aftermath. I want to say that I think the scene of him touchiNg power’s boobs is a good scene. Think about how dramatic and philosophical denji’s monologue about it is. When you slow moment down and focus on every detail, and have the character extensively inner monologue about their complex feelings on it, and give them multiple reaction shots of their shocked or pained or confused expressions, you’re giving a moment IMPORTANCE. You’re choosing what to focus on, as an artist
Just think about how much time Fujimoto dedicates to Denji touching power’s boobs and its aftermath. I want to say that I think the scene of him touchiNg power’s boobs is a good scene. Think about how dramatic and philosophical denji’s monologue about it is. When you slow moment down and focus on every detail, and have the character extensively inner monologue about their complex feelings on it, and give them multiple reaction shots of their shocked or pained or confused expressions, you’re giving a moment IMPORTANCE. You’re choosing what to focus on, as an artist
Not an eccessive amount of time, and while i do agree the scene does hols a lot of importance to Denji's character developement, i wouldn't call it philosophical, it's a coming of age scene which has more layers to it because of Denji's past. The inner monologue is also not very extensive, i'd say it's just right, not too long not too short
Wyatt said:
Fujimoto does not give that much empathy (as expressed through the formal devices of panel choices, dialogue and monologue choices, and the compression vs elongation of time) to anything that happens to a woman until part 2.
Fujimoto does not give that much empathy (as expressed through the formal devices of panel choices, dialogue and monologue choices, and the compression vs elongation of time) to anything that happens to a woman until part 2.
He doesn't give empathy to Power naked in the woods? Or maybe you think that because you think the focus of that scene is her being naked in the woods?
I hate to break it to you, but Power being abandoned naked in the woods was not the point of the scene, let alone it being about the woman she possessed, which btw
Wyatt said:
power’s body belonged to a human when she was raped and killed, then the power Devil possessed her body.
power’s body belonged to a human when she was raped and killed, then the power Devil possessed her body.
It is not revealed how she died, what you have up there is a theory, not a fact
But back to the scene in question, it was about Power's bond with Nyako, how she learns to have empathy for another living being, and how she learns what it's like to feel pain when she loses him, that is where Power's character developement lies, and that is where time was spent on giving her inner monologues, just as much time as Denji's boob scene
DigiCat said: Not an eccessive amount of time, and while i do agree the scene does hols a lot of importance to Denji's character developement, i wouldn't call it philosophical, it's a coming of age scene which has more layers to it because of Denji's past. The inner monologue is also not very extensive, i'd say it's just right, not too long not too short I don't think it's excessive at all, I think it just shows undue preference from Fujimoto towards Denji's psychological state over that of the female characters. We are getting too caught up on Chainsaw Man though. This is about sexism in anime in general. "I hate to break it to you, but Power being abandoned naked in the woods was not the point of the scene, let alone it being about the woman she possessed, which btw" That is my exact point. It is revealing of how unconcerned Fujimoto is with the real dangers of being a woman because he uses them as an unimportant plot device to set up some fanciful little story about a cat. |
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Reply to KyushuYokai
Sakura dealing with Sasukes emo toxicty then marrying him and being turned into a housewife
| @KyushuYokai You are a hero. You understand. |
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Reply to Lucifrost
Wyatt said:
it is important that the systems which limit them from achieving greater aesthetic and moral heights are challenged.
it is important that the systems which limit them from achieving greater aesthetic and moral heights are challenged.
They're challenged all the time. You're just not acknowledging the vast majority of anime that do so.
Wyatt said:
And the conversation is not just about Shonen manga but anime as a whole, which, yeah largely is seriously misogynistic. There are exceptions like...
...Char’s Counterattack
And the conversation is not just about Shonen manga but anime as a whole, which, yeah largely is seriously misogynistic. There are exceptions like...
...Char’s Counterattack
Alright, I've had enough of this conversation. There is nothing more that I can say after seeing your standards.
| @Lucifrost If you're done you're done, but if you're not I'm just wondering what you mean when you say the vast majority of anime challenge the sexist systems in Japan. The vast majority? Like really? Like you mean most isekai shows you think are actively challenging those systems? Feel free to give examples. |
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Reply to Wyatt
@Lucifrost If you're done you're done, but if you're not I'm just wondering what you mean when you say the vast majority of anime challenge the sexist systems in Japan. The vast majority? Like really? Like you mean most isekai shows you think are actively challenging those systems? Feel free to give examples.
Wyatt said: I'm just wondering what you mean when you say the vast majority of anime challenge the sexist systems in Japan. No I didn't say that. I said that a lot of anime do that, and that you only think anime is misogynist because you choose to ignore so many great titles. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to hikari_night_god
@Wyatt Actually shounen anime is known for giving it's main characters very gory, awful backstories, treated like crap all over. Its a trope. Women don't get that much.
| @hikari_night_god I'd need some examples. Naruto's backstory is that he was an orphan with no friends. Ichigo does not have a tragic backstory. Deku's backstory is that he was bullied for not having a quirk. Luffy has losing Sabo. None of this is gory. Sad, yes, but not gory. Ed Elric has a gory backstory, there's one. But not Goku, Gon, Natsu, Itadori Yuji, every JoJo protagonist except Jonathan (I'll give you him), Ginta, Ippo, Yugi, Conan, Light Yagami, You Asakura, Toriko. Eren has a gory backstory but it's the same gory backstory as his sister Mikasa and really Mikasa has two, since she also has her previous family, so that doesn't really work to your point. Tanjiro has his sister turned into a demon but his sister actually is the one that gets turned into a demon lol, so once again the suffering of women is seen as a tragedy for the man more than the woman, yes I know demon slayer is written by a woman. Meanwhile I can think of plenty of women in these same manga that have legitimately gory and or sexual atrocities done against them. Hinata is beaten into a heart attack at 12 by her own cousin, and beaten into a bloody pulp at 16 by Pain, including Kishimoto detailing that her lungs are punctured and she pukes up blood. Nel in Bleach has her skull smashed in to the point of having a permanent massive scar on her head. Hiyori is gruesomely sliced in half, Rangiku has her stomach destroyed graphically. Here's a photo of that second one: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fljzqr0d7dsec1.png Death Note has Misa who is so in love with light that she kills herself after he dies. It also has that lady in episode 7 who is the smartest character in the whole show and finds out who Light is basically immediately so she also kills herself (by virtue of the death note), and horribly at that. Naruto, One Piece, Bleach and more are all allergic to having a woman win a fight ever. I'm not sure they ever do win against a man, with the exception of Robin defeating that who even cares fat guy in Skypeia in half a chapter, and Sakura and Granny Chiyo teaming up to beat Sasori (two women together can beat a man!). Here's a fun one for you: Choji being fat is treated as a lovable quirky quality, and in fact helps him with his ninja abilities which revolve around rolling people over, but Anko getting fat is treated as a punchline. I don't hate these manga but it's silly to act like they're not sexist at all. |
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Reply to Lucifrost
Wyatt said:
I'm just wondering what you mean when you say the vast majority of anime challenge the sexist systems in Japan.
I'm just wondering what you mean when you say the vast majority of anime challenge the sexist systems in Japan.
No I didn't say that. I said that a lot of anime do that, and that you only think anime is misogynist because you choose to ignore so many great titles.
| @Lucifrost Alright I'm confused because its literally written down, I can quote you, you said Lucifrost said: They're challenged all the time. You're just not acknowledging the vast majority of anime that do so. unless I misunderstood (very possible). Do you agree that there are ANY anime that are misogynistic? Can you give me some examples of major titles I missed that challenge these systems (I'm sure there are many I have missed, I have not seen nearly everything)? Do you think I'm wrong about any of the ones I've mentioned? |
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Reply to Wyatt
@hikari_night_god I'd need some examples. Naruto's backstory is that he was an orphan with no friends. Ichigo does not have a tragic backstory. Deku's backstory is that he was bullied for not having a quirk. Luffy has losing Sabo. None of this is gory. Sad, yes, but not gory. Ed Elric has a gory backstory, there's one. But not Goku, Gon, Natsu, Itadori Yuji, every JoJo protagonist except Jonathan (I'll give you him), Ginta, Ippo, Yugi, Conan, Light Yagami, You Asakura, Toriko. Eren has a gory backstory but it's the same gory backstory as his sister Mikasa and really Mikasa has two, since she also has her previous family, so that doesn't really work to your point. Tanjiro has his sister turned into a demon but his sister actually is the one that gets turned into a demon lol, so once again the suffering of women is seen as a tragedy for the man more than the woman, yes I know demon slayer is written by a woman.
Meanwhile I can think of plenty of women in these same manga that have legitimately gory and or sexual atrocities done against them. Hinata is beaten into a heart attack at 12 by her own cousin, and beaten into a bloody pulp at 16 by Pain, including Kishimoto detailing that her lungs are punctured and she pukes up blood. Nel in Bleach has her skull smashed in to the point of having a permanent massive scar on her head. Hiyori is gruesomely sliced in half, Rangiku has her stomach destroyed graphically. Here's a photo of that second one: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fljzqr0d7dsec1.png
Death Note has Misa who is so in love with light that she kills herself after he dies. It also has that lady in episode 7 who is the smartest character in the whole show and finds out who Light is basically immediately so she also kills herself (by virtue of the death note), and horribly at that. Naruto, One Piece, Bleach and more are all allergic to having a woman win a fight ever. I'm not sure they ever do win against a man, with the exception of Robin defeating that who even cares fat guy in Skypeia in half a chapter, and Sakura and Granny Chiyo teaming up to beat Sasori (two women together can beat a man!). Here's a fun one for you: Choji being fat is treated as a lovable quirky quality, and in fact helps him with his ninja abilities which revolve around rolling people over, but Anko getting fat is treated as a punchline. I don't hate these manga but it's silly to act like they're not sexist at all.
Meanwhile I can think of plenty of women in these same manga that have legitimately gory and or sexual atrocities done against them. Hinata is beaten into a heart attack at 12 by her own cousin, and beaten into a bloody pulp at 16 by Pain, including Kishimoto detailing that her lungs are punctured and she pukes up blood. Nel in Bleach has her skull smashed in to the point of having a permanent massive scar on her head. Hiyori is gruesomely sliced in half, Rangiku has her stomach destroyed graphically. Here's a photo of that second one: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fljzqr0d7dsec1.png
Death Note has Misa who is so in love with light that she kills herself after he dies. It also has that lady in episode 7 who is the smartest character in the whole show and finds out who Light is basically immediately so she also kills herself (by virtue of the death note), and horribly at that. Naruto, One Piece, Bleach and more are all allergic to having a woman win a fight ever. I'm not sure they ever do win against a man, with the exception of Robin defeating that who even cares fat guy in Skypeia in half a chapter, and Sakura and Granny Chiyo teaming up to beat Sasori (two women together can beat a man!). Here's a fun one for you: Choji being fat is treated as a lovable quirky quality, and in fact helps him with his ninja abilities which revolve around rolling people over, but Anko getting fat is treated as a punchline. I don't hate these manga but it's silly to act like they're not sexist at all.
Wyatt said: Death Note has Misa who is so in love with light that she kills herself after he dies. That doesn't happen in either the anime or the manga. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| it was an npc girl where the mc feed a literal bear to a young girl using enslavement bear tools it was a gruesome death the detail where part of her body was eaten and my goat just quoted buddha where it was superficial only mortals would care but the bear get killed even more worse |
Reply to Lucifrost
Wyatt said:
Death Note has Misa who is so in love with light that she kills herself after he dies.
Death Note has Misa who is so in love with light that she kills herself after he dies.
That doesn't happen in either the anime or the manga.
| @Lucifrost You're right, it doesn't happen in the manga, but it does happen in the anime. As long as you accept the obvious implication of cutting from someone's lover dying to them standing on the top of a skyscraper. Still, my bad. If you want some clear sexism in a manga by Ohba and Obata check out pages 16-19 of chapter 2 of Bakuman. |
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Reply to Wyatt
@JaniSIr now that I have checked your MAL and I see that cross ange is your favorite anime I respect you. Just keep your eyes peeled. Also reze is a popular character because she’s a good one! Just not as good of one as Denji or aki. Chainsaw man is not much of a problem in isolation it’s just one of many symptoms of a sexist industry which I thought all anime fans were aware of
| @Wyatt The word "sexism" gets thrown around a lot, except when it's actually applicable. 🙄 |
*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧May the winds of change transform you entirely.*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ |
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