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Sep 26, 4:27 PM
#1
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Jul 2018
564125
I believe that nothing exists outside of my own consciousness/mind. This would basically mean that reality is my dream.
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Sep 26, 4:30 PM
#2

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Aug 2014
4602
What led you to arrive at this conclusion? It might sound less crazy if you explained such a worldview.

There are numerous methods to illustrate the faults of solipsism, but here's one: If everything exists inside your own mind, why can't you predict the behavior of others? What about events in the world? One would think you would have more control over all that if it was merely a mental projection.
SmugSatokoSep 26, 4:34 PM
Sep 26, 4:37 PM
#3

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Jun 2024
1347
If reality is just your dream, I hope you're at least having a good time.
Sep 26, 4:41 PM
#4

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Dec 2021
2518
You aren't supposed to see this part.
'Say the line, Bart' meme, but with Suiseiseki saying 'NTHE''Here it comes' meme, but with a tornado containing 'Near Term Human Extinction'
Sep 26, 4:53 PM
#5
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Jul 2018
564125
Reply to SmugSatoko
What led you to arrive at this conclusion? It might sound less crazy if you explained such a worldview.

There are numerous methods to illustrate the faults of solipsism, but here's one: If everything exists inside your own mind, why can't you predict the behavior of others? What about events in the world? One would think you would have more control over all that if it was merely a mental projection.
@SmugSatoko Inconsistencies in human behavior. How everyone is basically a walking piece of shit. Humans are not "good." This might be an opinionated view, but I believe in objective good and evil. People who say good and evil do not exist are selling their own beliefs. Why do insane acts of violence occur? What about sexual crimes? War? Disease? Famine? The reason I would not be able to predict the behaviors of others is because they aren't REALLY there. Events in the world are also just an illusion. This concept is known as maya in Hinduism. Illusion. Anyway, I could be completely wrong, but I believe in simulation theory. A simulation and a dream are basically the same thing. However, this does open up more questions. Could something exist outside of the simulation?

Also, isn't it ironic how humans have not been able to discover the origin of life? Science is basically an educated guess if you boil it down to the basics. Why can't anyone figure out why the big bang occurred? Scientists think there was something before the big bang. Why can they just not figure it out? And I have come to the conclusion. We do know all of the answers. See, that's the thing I think a lot of people do not consider. What if we already know all of the answers, we just won't accept them? And I didn't even get into the possibility that solipsism is only true within whatever the reality is that is being experienced currently. If a simulation could simulate anything, then I could be experiencing a solipsism simulation.

So basically, solipsism is unfalsifiable. But I really do think it's true to some degree. Anyway if you need me to give specifics I can. I've thought about this for literal years at this point.
Sep 26, 5:16 PM
#6

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Dec 2015
8272
But what if someone else believes in it too? Which one is more correct you or someone else cause only one person should be the one having a dream ain't it? Obviously I know that you'll answer that you're the only one, but how would you know that?
Sep 26, 5:35 PM
#7
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Jul 2018
564125
Reply to Zettaiken
But what if someone else believes in it too? Which one is more correct you or someone else cause only one person should be the one having a dream ain't it? Obviously I know that you'll answer that you're the only one, but how would you know that?
@Zettaiken You can never actually know for certain, which is why I still live as though others exist. But in reality, I think it's all just me experiencing manifestations of myself. Basically, I'm all alone but it feels like I'm not.
Sep 26, 5:37 PM
#8
white angel

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Feb 2024
1785
Sure, maybe you live in a simulation with a lazy-loading of reality layers. Maybe your reality is even the product of imagination of a character living in a reality created by your own imagination. So you two recursively create realities of each other, like Uroboros biting his own tail. Or maybe there is no such thing as "you" at all, and your proud "cogito ergo sum" is nothing but a wave function with respect to the time axis.

So what? What's the practical outcome of such unbelievably "fresh" and "deep" conclusions?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Sep 26, 5:40 PM
#9
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Jul 2018
564125
Reply to LoveYourSmile
Sure, maybe you live in a simulation with a lazy-loading of reality layers. Maybe your reality is even the product of imagination of a character living in a reality created by your own imagination. So you two recursively create realities of each other, like Uroboros biting his own tail. Or maybe there is no such thing as "you" at all, and your proud "cogito ergo sum" is nothing but a wave function with respect to the time axis.

So what? What's the practical outcome of such unbelievably "fresh" and "deep" conclusions?
@LoveYourSmile I mean the only thing you can actually be certain of is subjective-self experience. I am "real", whatever that means.

Also, there is no practical outcome. There is no meaning or end goal to be arrived at with thought experiments. Everything dies since everything is physical in some shape or form.
Sep 26, 5:44 PM

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Aug 2014
4602
purple_rayn said:
Inconsistencies in human behavior.

If it's in your own mind, can't you explain it? Or is it that you do not understand your mind? You're talking to yourself, by the way...according to you.

How everyone is basically a walking piece of shit.

How flattering...but I guess that applies to you too, now, doesn't it? You may want to try purifying your thoughts if they're so shitty.

Humans are not "good."

Define good.

This might be an opinionated view, but I believe in objective good and evil. People who say good and evil do not exist are selling their own beliefs.

You just finished saying everything that exists only exists inside your own mind, making good and evil, along with all of existence, subjective phenomena within your mind.

Why do insane acts of violence occur? What about sexual crimes? War? Disease? Famine?

Because you imagine them, apparently. lolz

The reason I would not be able to predict the behaviors of others is because they aren't REALLY there. Events in the world are also just an illusion. This concept is known as maya in Hinduism. Illusion.

But if it's an illusion inside your mind, and it's been going on all this time, why haven't you been able to understand it better?

What about all those eons of time before you were born? Do you remember witnessing them? After all, it was all in your mind.

Anyway, I could be completely wrong, but I believe in simulation theory. A simulation and a dream are basically the same thing. However, this does open up more questions. Could something exist outside of the simulation?

On that note, why do you think reality exists only within your individual mind rather than you (along with other parts of reality) being a simulation?

It can't be both, because if your mind is a simulation, that would mean something exists outside your mind. Something would have to be running the simulation, it would have to be simulating something, there would presumably be someone who designed the simulation, etc.

Also, isn't it ironic how humans have not been able to discover the origin of life?

What you call ironic, I call expected.

Science is basically an educated guess if you boil it down to the basics.

A hypothesis is an educated guess. There's far more to science than hypotheses, such as empirical observation and experimentation.

Why can't anyone figure out why the big bang occurred? Scientists think there was something before the big bang. Why can they just not figure it out? And I have come to the conclusion. We do know all of the answers.

So...we don't know all the answers, therefore we do know all the answers? o.O

See, that's the thing I think a lot of people do not consider. What if we already know all of the answers, we just won't accept them?

Before accepting the answers, it would help if you listed what those answers are.

And I didn't even get into the possibility that solipsism is only true within whatever the reality is that is being experienced currently.

Solipsism posits that all of reality exists within an individual's mind, so it would not be conditional in the way you specified.

If a simulation could simulate anything, then I could be experiencing a solipsism simulation.

That's some trippy shit right there. Solipsism Simulation should be the title of a movie or something.

So basically, solipsism is unfalsifiable. But I really do think it's true to some degree.

If you have no way of proving or disproving it, saying you believe it without explaining why isn't exactly convincing.

Anyway if you need me to give specifics I can.

If you have anything specific that can demonstrate it to be true...but like you covered, you cannot possibly do that.

I've thought about this for literal years at this point.

Sounds like a waste of thought over something you can't even demonstrate to be true.

purple_rayn said:
Everything dies since everything is physical in some shape or form.

If all of existence only exists inside your mind, how would it be predicated upon something preceding it, such as physical matter? If matter existed before your mind, then logically, not all of existence is within your mind.
SmugSatokoSep 26, 6:58 PM
Sep 26, 6:02 PM

Online
Dec 2016
6888
Life never gave us lemons. We invented them and then made lemonade.





Sep 26, 6:09 PM

Offline
Nov 2015
698
Why are you asking us if we’re just aspects of your dream?

“It is all a Dream, a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but You. And You are but a Thought- a vagrant Thought, a useless Thought, a homeless Thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!"
Cold-hearted orb that rules the night

Removes the colours from our sight

Red is grey and yellow white

But we decide which is right

And which is an illusion.
Sep 26, 8:19 PM

Offline
Jun 2019
6556
How could your (limited) intellect produce theories and artworks far beyond your comprehension like quantum mechanics, Finnegans Wake, topos theory, and The End of Evangelion?*

Inconsistencies in human behavior. How everyone is basically a walking piece of shit. Humans are not "good." This might be an opinionated view, but I believe in objective good and evil. People who say good and evil do not exist are selling their own beliefs. Why do insane acts of violence occur? What about sexual crimes? War? Disease? Famine? The reason I would not be able to predict the behaviors of others is because they aren't REALLY there. Events in the world are also just an illusion. This concept is known as maya in Hinduism. Illusion. Anyway, I could be completely wrong, but I believe in simulation theory. A simulation and a dream are basically the same thing. However, this does open up more questions. Could something exist outside of the simulation?

Also, isn't it ironic how humans have not been able to discover the origin of life? Science is basically an educated guess if you boil it down to the basics. Why can't anyone figure out why the big bang occurred? Scientists think there was something before the big bang. Why can they just not figure it out? And I have come to the conclusion. We do know all of the answers. See, that's the thing I think a lot of people do not consider. What if we already know all of the answers, we just won't accept them? And I didn't even get into the possibility that solipsism is only true within whatever the reality is that is being experienced currently. If a simulation could simulate anything, then I could be experiencing a solipsism simulation.

So basically, solipsism is unfalsifiable. But I really do think it's true to some degree. Anyway if you need me to give specifics I can. I've thought about this for literal years at this point.

People are simply trying to find Nash equilibrium, it has little to do with good and evil. History shows that what people really want rarely aligns with what is morally justifiable. In a perfect world, the liar would immediately drop dead like Ananias. Complete egoism à la Sade actually makes sense in a solipsistic world by the way, but it makes little sense to expect to be able to predict the actions of anyone in the world; indeed, you only possess partial information and even if you had access to complete information (which your brain could not process anyway), you would not be able to predict everyone's trajectory, for we are not robots. On the other hand, you would be right to doubt the reality of the world if you could predict everyone's actions as in The Truman Show (which is a rather shallow movie soit dit en passant). The complexity of the world is proof that your brain could not have possibly produced it. Thou canst not dream above thy soul.

Is that a joke? Do you realise how much time it took for scientists to come up with the notion of DNA or of something seemingly far more elementary like the idea of group (it took decades after Galois' work for mathematicians to understand the relevance of this concept)? Scientific discoveries do not fall from trees like apples. Two decades ago, gravitational waves were still a dream. Why do you expect physicists to be able to solve a problem they cannot even formulate? In fact, few cosmologists believe in the "Big Crunch." Why can't mathematicians solve the Riemann Hypothesis? They must be all stupid... It should be obvious by now that your knowledge about history and the scientific process is nil. Once more, you have only provided a counter-argument against your thesis; why would a simulation be so intricate? Surely, you would feel more at ease in a Garden of Eden, yet the world is mysterious, queer, and sometimes frightening.

It might be unfalsifiable but it is also unjustifiable and your reasons to believe in solipsism are as shallow as the arguments of Flat Earthers.

*Notice the gradation.

LoveYourSmile said:
So what? What's the practical outcome of such unbelievably "fresh" and "deep" conclusions?

"I am 13 and this is deep!" One should write a PhD thesis on the harmful influence of avant-garde anime on feeble minds...
Sep 26, 8:47 PM

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Jan 2023
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If only one person existed, is it even possible for them to be crazy? There is no norm to compare them to
ぴいちくぱあちく ぴいちくぱあちく
ぴいちくぱあちく うるさいっ!!
Sep 26, 8:51 PM
Lost 💎 Diamond

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Dec 2012
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If this is true, I hope you don't mind giving me a million dollars
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Sep 26, 9:24 PM
Tomato

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Feb 2020
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"I believe in solipsism. Is that crazy?"

Not at all.

Sep 27, 1:02 AM

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1283
So a simulation with extra steps, or perhaps less. Either way it just feels too paranoid to be true. I know my own self exists as I am currently aware, so I guess according to that theory I'm the only real person here.
Sep 27, 1:13 AM

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Dec 2013
15380
I think reading Descartes meditation would enlighten you more


Sep 27, 2:15 AM

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Jan 2009
100406
if you believe that youre the only real person around here then why even care about others opinions like ours? why even make this threads?
Sep 27, 2:36 AM

Online
Mar 2008
49261
If it were a dream why arent you having sex with a catgirl?
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Sep 27, 5:51 AM

Offline
Feb 2016
341
And how exactly does this change how you act within reality? What is the result of this supposedly fundamental insight?

You still post on MAL, make love to your palm, and go to bed later than you should. If you had the capacity to comprehend the profundity of ANY ontological or epistemological statement then you wouldn't be flicking this crap in our faces. Read some books or do something else with your life.
Sep 27, 6:00 AM
Émilia Hoarfrost

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Dec 2015
4302
If solipsism was coined by someone else, and if I myself, reached a similar position, then does it not make 3 parties that individually came up with it/agreed to it cognitively? What do you make of it?

@traed HAVE YOU ALWAYS BEEN THAT BASED??????? xD



Sep 27, 6:35 AM

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100406
@Zarutaku he keeps recycling the same 2 topics so next is another free will thread
Sep 27, 6:35 AM

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Reply to removed-user
@SmugSatoko Inconsistencies in human behavior. How everyone is basically a walking piece of shit. Humans are not "good." This might be an opinionated view, but I believe in objective good and evil. People who say good and evil do not exist are selling their own beliefs. Why do insane acts of violence occur? What about sexual crimes? War? Disease? Famine? The reason I would not be able to predict the behaviors of others is because they aren't REALLY there. Events in the world are also just an illusion. This concept is known as maya in Hinduism. Illusion. Anyway, I could be completely wrong, but I believe in simulation theory. A simulation and a dream are basically the same thing. However, this does open up more questions. Could something exist outside of the simulation?

Also, isn't it ironic how humans have not been able to discover the origin of life? Science is basically an educated guess if you boil it down to the basics. Why can't anyone figure out why the big bang occurred? Scientists think there was something before the big bang. Why can they just not figure it out? And I have come to the conclusion. We do know all of the answers. See, that's the thing I think a lot of people do not consider. What if we already know all of the answers, we just won't accept them? And I didn't even get into the possibility that solipsism is only true within whatever the reality is that is being experienced currently. If a simulation could simulate anything, then I could be experiencing a solipsism simulation.

So basically, solipsism is unfalsifiable. But I really do think it's true to some degree. Anyway if you need me to give specifics I can. I've thought about this for literal years at this point.
@purple_rayn Just noticed this abortion of a post. I can overlook your ineffectual whining about the world being so hecking bad and evil! (if you knew anything about the concepts you talk about you'd have already come across the monistic answer of evil having no ontological basis) But to project your limited comprehensive faculties onto one of the most profound systems of knowledge ever conceived (Vedanta, aka "Hinduism") is frankly a crime. What a fantastic example of why esoteric knowledge should only be disclosed behind closed doors to people who have the capacity to internalise it.

First of all, stop applying contemporary categories onto ancient systems of thought in such a crude manner. To bring "solipsism" into considerations of a pre-modern nature is literal nonsense because Cartesian bifurcation hadn't yet destroyed philosophy's integrity. No, Hinduism does not believe the world doesn't exist: our perceptions are illusory insofar as their own truth doesn't exist within themselves, but is dependent on a higher truth. The world is not a "simulation" as much as the differentiation between us and the world is a "simulation" (if you insist on using this language). This in of itself is a refutation of your poor understanding of "maya": if this is a simulation, then why do you trust a simulation to tell you it is a simulation? You've proven to yourself the world has no essential foundation, but what is your essential foundation? The fact that you experience things? But I thought the point was that experience is illusory inherently? Absolutely incoherent nonsense.

Second, "illusion" meaning what exactly? If the world is a "simulation" then that addresses absolutely nothing and explains nothing; what is the source of this "simulation"? Where do these apparitions come from, how do they appear within your mind? This is the matter you'd be actually interested in discussing and exploring if these ideas had more meaning to you than simply being abstract fidget toys for you to sweat on.

You've supposedly been thinking about this for "literal years" yet in that bog of supposed "thought" never once did the bubble surface that you should actually study a comprehensive school of thought yknow... comprehensively? Ideas do not exist in vacuums, and you're far from the first person to have enough free time to start thinking about things beyond their means, so humble yourself and learn if you seek actual knowledge.

Your claim is easily falsifiable: things which are not coherent do not exist, this is a fact we can attest in respect to every single aspect of reality because its nature is that it is coherent; if this wasn't so, science and even mathematics wouldn't be possible. Your hypothesis is incoherent, therefore it does not describe the world.
TibetanJazz666Sep 27, 6:48 AM
Sep 27, 6:41 AM

Online
Mar 2008
49261
Reply to EmiliaHoarfrost
If solipsism was coined by someone else, and if I myself, reached a similar position, then does it not make 3 parties that individually came up with it/agreed to it cognitively? What do you make of it?

@traed HAVE YOU ALWAYS BEEN THAT BASED??????? xD
@EmiliaHoarfrost
I tend to be low key on a lot of things.
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Sep 27, 7:15 AM

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I think I found @OP's blog.
https://vitrifyher.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/antinatalism-in-purgatory/
Mao said:
If you have to shit, shit! If you have to fart, fart!
Sep 27, 7:28 AM

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Solipsism syndrome refers to a psychological state and condition in which a person feels that reality is not external to their mind. Periods of extended isolation may predispose people to this condition. In particular, the syndrome has been identified as a potential concern for individuals living in outer space for extended periods of time.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism_syndrome
Sep 27, 7:40 AM

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@vasipi4946 Lolling.... It was irresponsible to introduce industrial materials to a large number of individuals.
Sep 27, 11:29 AM

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If that's the case why'd you ask for opinions?


By the way I also used to believe that when I was 5 or 6. Then one day it suddenly occurred to me that others might have their own thoughts as well.
mshfqtnySep 27, 11:40 AM
Sep 27, 12:26 PM
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Reply to deg
@Zarutaku he keeps recycling the same 2 topics so next is another free will thread
@deg Nobody is actually doing anything since we all lack free will.
Sep 27, 2:50 PM

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Aug 2014
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purple_rayn said:
Nobody is actually doing anything since we all lack free will.

You mean you aren't actually doing anything since we all are figments of your imagination. :P

Maybe if you respond to the points people made refuting your assertions, you will have finally done something.

TibetanJazz666 said:
Your claim is easily falsifiable: things which are not coherent do not exist, this is a fact we can attest in respect to every single aspect of reality because its nature is that it is coherent; if this wasn't so, science and even mathematics wouldn't be possible. Your hypothesis is incoherent, therefore it does not describe the world.

What boggles my mind is that he doesn't seem to comprehend why it's incoherent even after those who replied to the thread wrote pages worth of information explaining it.
Sep 27, 3:39 PM
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It’s become clear through your posts on this thread that you are a midwit, you’ve never done any serious thinking about these topics and you don’t have the intellectual capacity to do so.
Sep 27, 6:13 PM

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Solipsism is a phenomological state of reality not the state of reality as such.
"Your worst sin is that you have betrayed yourself for nothing."
Sep 27, 6:19 PM

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2518
Welp, looks like Mr Imagination decided to grab his coat and leave. I guess he found out how to unplug from the simulation.
'Say the line, Bart' meme, but with Suiseiseki saying 'NTHE''Here it comes' meme, but with a tornado containing 'Near Term Human Extinction'
Sep 27, 6:21 PM

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4602
Daviljoe193 said:
Welp, looks like Mr Imagination decided to grab his coat and leave. I guess he found out how to unplug from the simulation.

Goddamn, I kinda feel bad now. I hope we didn't hurt his feelings too much!
Sep 28, 3:32 PM
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Apr 2020
61
this is just a mental problem but people are debate lording the guy. emotional intelligence is rather low here.
Sep 28, 6:49 PM

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81
>is that crazy?

no. but when you come back, let me know how your 'way of life' is. i'm curious. i hope you are doing well.
Sep 29, 1:36 AM

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1143
I guess there is no way to completely prove you wrong but that goes the other way around too, you can’t prove that your right. So yeah it’s a bit crazy to believe in something you can’t prove. But then again religion exists so what’s really crazy about that.
Oct 4, 1:37 PM
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5877
Totally crazy my dude, fr fr man, wow.
Oct 30, 11:27 AM

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Apr 2016
687
@vasipi4946 That is not my blog sorry :(
Oct 30, 2:51 PM

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May 2017
255
Man, you all are gross. This poor hyper simpleton is fixated on a bad idea he got from the internet, and is blathering about it just like the internet taught him, you, and the rest of us to do, and—you blather back meanly that he ought to know better? And even First Alcibiades-san, who impressed me yesterday, is piling on. The world is coherent? Whose coherence? Even cosmology admits the possibility of a false vacuum; then at least the physical laws we know would be impermanent, just a little crack we got stuck in as we tumble downward towards things incomprehensible.

Be nice to the troll-seeming, sometimes they really mean it and can't get out. This is MAL, my dudes. Bah, maybe I should go back to my mountain until the soothsayer of weariness stops by again.
"He who writes for fools always finds a large public. A precondition for reading good books is not reading bad ones: for life is short."
—Arthur Schopenhauer
Oct 30, 3:48 PM

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Reply to auroraloose
Man, you all are gross. This poor hyper simpleton is fixated on a bad idea he got from the internet, and is blathering about it just like the internet taught him, you, and the rest of us to do, and—you blather back meanly that he ought to know better? And even First Alcibiades-san, who impressed me yesterday, is piling on. The world is coherent? Whose coherence? Even cosmology admits the possibility of a false vacuum; then at least the physical laws we know would be impermanent, just a little crack we got stuck in as we tumble downward towards things incomprehensible.

Be nice to the troll-seeming, sometimes they really mean it and can't get out. This is MAL, my dudes. Bah, maybe I should go back to my mountain until the soothsayer of weariness stops by again.
@auroraloose "whose coherence"? What an absurd question. The coherence that allows us to use words and be able to understand each other by virtue of the fact that we participate in the same reality. The coherence that allows you to take for granted that if I pickpocketed your wallet, you'd tell me that it's yours, and when I ask how you can prove this you would no longer be interested in waxing in this nominalist fashion and would be more concerned with getting it back from me. Obviously not all is within the grasp of our comprehension (at least not immediately and without practice), but there is certainly enough for us to discuss metaphysical matters like these. A "super-rationality", or logic beyond logic, doesn't invalidate any of this and in fact strengthens the point I raised - knowing and unknowing are two sides of the same coin, incoherence has coherent ways to be accounted for also. You can tell me this is all a "tumble" and beg the question like OP of where the eternal law that drags us from one moment to the other comes from?

Perhaps I misunderstood and you want a specific name? I think the conditioned non-dualism of some schools of Vedanta, and the mathematical realist Neo-Pythagorean writings of Platonists in late antiquity are the closest we have to a complete body of knowledge (both in near perfect agreement excusing the semantic limits of the languages they were written in), and many of the most important contributors to quantum theory thought so too. Chris Langan's CTMU is a useful reference point also, and is in accord with the ancients on the fundamental points. A.N. Whitehead has made great contributions also. The entire project of physics is to map the unifying qualities of our natural world, and the premise of any method of science is an outcome of the aforementioned systems of thought. I understand the implicit mysticism of these philosophies might cause adverse reactions within some, especially someone who seems to have a relevant academic background, but I recommend to all that they broaden their horizons. Give The Elements of Theology by Proclus a try, you might get something out of it. Probably more than invoking "cosmology" as if it is a unified field anyways.

Before they have the capacity to learn anything, people need to be humbled - it is the fastest way for them to realise their errors and cultivate the inspiration to better themselves, should they really possess the will.
TibetanJazz666Oct 30, 4:34 PM
Oct 30, 6:58 PM

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Reply to TibetanJazz666
@auroraloose "whose coherence"? What an absurd question. The coherence that allows us to use words and be able to understand each other by virtue of the fact that we participate in the same reality. The coherence that allows you to take for granted that if I pickpocketed your wallet, you'd tell me that it's yours, and when I ask how you can prove this you would no longer be interested in waxing in this nominalist fashion and would be more concerned with getting it back from me. Obviously not all is within the grasp of our comprehension (at least not immediately and without practice), but there is certainly enough for us to discuss metaphysical matters like these. A "super-rationality", or logic beyond logic, doesn't invalidate any of this and in fact strengthens the point I raised - knowing and unknowing are two sides of the same coin, incoherence has coherent ways to be accounted for also. You can tell me this is all a "tumble" and beg the question like OP of where the eternal law that drags us from one moment to the other comes from?

Perhaps I misunderstood and you want a specific name? I think the conditioned non-dualism of some schools of Vedanta, and the mathematical realist Neo-Pythagorean writings of Platonists in late antiquity are the closest we have to a complete body of knowledge (both in near perfect agreement excusing the semantic limits of the languages they were written in), and many of the most important contributors to quantum theory thought so too. Chris Langan's CTMU is a useful reference point also, and is in accord with the ancients on the fundamental points. A.N. Whitehead has made great contributions also. The entire project of physics is to map the unifying qualities of our natural world, and the premise of any method of science is an outcome of the aforementioned systems of thought. I understand the implicit mysticism of these philosophies might cause adverse reactions within some, especially someone who seems to have a relevant academic background, but I recommend to all that they broaden their horizons. Give The Elements of Theology by Proclus a try, you might get something out of it. Probably more than invoking "cosmology" as if it is a unified field anyways.

Before they have the capacity to learn anything, people need to be humbled - it is the fastest way for them to realise their errors and cultivate the inspiration to better themselves, should they really possess the will.
Phew! Finally. Be at least mine enemy!—thus indeed speaketh the true reverence. Tell me, ye men, who of you are capable of friendship? (I have enough self-confidence not to mind being called a cow. Feminists need more spine.) Did you figure out this is what I was doing? I can't tell.

A little too jumpy, though. It's certainly true that almost all MAL users could indeed use some humbling, some actual academic gymnastics, so they can see that such knowledge is too wonderful and high, something they cannot attain to. But what of the mode of such humbling? Answer not the fool according to his instrumentalized-reason social-media folly. Anyway, you don't need to impress me, as I'm already impressed—as you maybe should have realized, though again, the MAL average makes this difficult. I'll reciprocate the level so as not to be disrespectful, but I don't believe in being too quick to that particular variety of vaunted reference out in the open. It demeans knowledge. You should be more gnomic.

Transcendental arguments require transcendence, see; this practical, instrumental reason stuff only works if you're as naive and rigid as Kant. Yes, any truth has to work given the obviousness of what we see around us, but who knows which entities are needlesly multiplied? Kant knew we couldn't see to the foundation, so he tried to do what we physicists call an effective field theory, work out the mid-level objects necessary to allow for the observable dynamics but forfend speaking of what was at the bottom, integrating out the high-momentum degrees of freedom. Coherence theories of truth fail because they assume we can see enough of the foundation to know that one thing does indeed fit with another. Eugene Thacker's In the Dust of This Planet was mostly unrigorous mumbo-jumbo for the purpose of self-aggrandizement, but his notion of the world-without-us was worth the read (as was the fun horror literary criticism). In the cosmological/field-theoretic concept of AdS/CFT, all the information in our universe is able to be defined and encapsulated in what happens at its edge, or surface, which possesses one fewer spatial dimension. And the way this information is encoded on the edge is impossibly convoluted, exactly and conceptually like a space-filling curve. So yes, we humans must perceive the world in some prescribed fashion contained within a set of possible ontologies, but it's the measure of this space of ontologies that you're ignoring. I do believe in a universal (and in case it wasn't obvious, non-solipsistic) foundation, but what if it is a Barthian wholly-other, a sleeping Azathoth that will destroy our naive formulations when it awakes? Back when I was taking Lagrangian mechanics my sophomore year of undergrad, a faux-intelligent colleague who hero-worshiped Feynman, was similarly lauded by my peers, and wasn't as good at physics as I was, told me, when I objected to some stupid pablum our TA said, that, "If the universe weren't elegant, we'd all kill ourselves." I'll put more cards on the table than rhetoric would dictate and say that, as a Christian, I wonder what evil, stupid human notions of elegance amount to. (And by Christian I don't mean nice, fluffy, Western-civilizational superiority nonsense.) I expect the truth of the universe is an astonishing condemnation of all our sensibilities, just as I believe in total depravity. Thacker's world-without-us, something that exists absent human bias and construction, is salutary in its vision—its humility, which you claim to appeal to.

But you don't know me, so—you can be forgiven for calling me a nominalist. Though, admittedly, not knowing you, who knows how superficial you are. I dislike the American-Lutheran "best-construction" fetish, primarily because most people who appeal to best constructions lack the ontology to construct anything in the first place, but certainly I'll say I'm impressed at least that you're unafraid to disparage cosmology. As someone who has sat through enough astrophysics seminars to have dark matter coming out her ears, I applaud you for realizing cosmology's tentativeness (or at least claiming it, whether or not you know enough to do so). Most physicists are idiot Feynman acolytes who hate philosophy, and I can't stand them for it. (I also begrudge Feynman his brilliance, as he used it to disparage philosophy, and had zero idea what he was talking about.) But I am not one of these; the size of the voids we've observed in the universe is indeed evidence against the cosmological principle. I referred to cosmology rather than physics in general in my previous post precisely because its foundations are shaky. If anything smarted in what you said, it was the suggestion I was allied with the science-supremacists. All hail Thomas Kuhn. Errol Morris should have borne the ashtray, if his story was indeed true.

It should not surprise us that the false consciousness of our age encourages solipsism, especially among the uneducated. You have only to look at the two nominees of the dominant American political parties to understand this. And by the way: Maybe you find material security more important than the truth, but I'll give up my wallet for the truth any day. God is the prime mover of humor. And in case my point got lost, appeals to coherence require more ontological confidence than I think we've earned, entrenched in our historical milieu as we are. Anyway, you bother me because you have knowledge but not the wisdom to discern time and place. You make references like you know, but you don't write like you do. You write like you're doing a Ben Shapiro, not a Terry Eagleton.

So what's you're most-beautiful philosophical argument, that you weren't willing to state over on the other thread?
auroralooseOct 30, 7:05 PM
"He who writes for fools always finds a large public. A precondition for reading good books is not reading bad ones: for life is short."
—Arthur Schopenhauer
Oct 30, 7:11 PM

Online
Mar 2008
49261
"removed-user"

Hmm world is still here
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Oct 30, 7:15 PM

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May 2017
255
Reply to traed
"removed-user"

Hmm world is still here
@traed Lol that's actually pretty good
"He who writes for fools always finds a large public. A precondition for reading good books is not reading bad ones: for life is short."
—Arthur Schopenhauer
Oct 30, 8:01 PM

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May 2017
255
Reply to TibetanJazz666
@auroraloose "whose coherence"? What an absurd question. The coherence that allows us to use words and be able to understand each other by virtue of the fact that we participate in the same reality. The coherence that allows you to take for granted that if I pickpocketed your wallet, you'd tell me that it's yours, and when I ask how you can prove this you would no longer be interested in waxing in this nominalist fashion and would be more concerned with getting it back from me. Obviously not all is within the grasp of our comprehension (at least not immediately and without practice), but there is certainly enough for us to discuss metaphysical matters like these. A "super-rationality", or logic beyond logic, doesn't invalidate any of this and in fact strengthens the point I raised - knowing and unknowing are two sides of the same coin, incoherence has coherent ways to be accounted for also. You can tell me this is all a "tumble" and beg the question like OP of where the eternal law that drags us from one moment to the other comes from?

Perhaps I misunderstood and you want a specific name? I think the conditioned non-dualism of some schools of Vedanta, and the mathematical realist Neo-Pythagorean writings of Platonists in late antiquity are the closest we have to a complete body of knowledge (both in near perfect agreement excusing the semantic limits of the languages they were written in), and many of the most important contributors to quantum theory thought so too. Chris Langan's CTMU is a useful reference point also, and is in accord with the ancients on the fundamental points. A.N. Whitehead has made great contributions also. The entire project of physics is to map the unifying qualities of our natural world, and the premise of any method of science is an outcome of the aforementioned systems of thought. I understand the implicit mysticism of these philosophies might cause adverse reactions within some, especially someone who seems to have a relevant academic background, but I recommend to all that they broaden their horizons. Give The Elements of Theology by Proclus a try, you might get something out of it. Probably more than invoking "cosmology" as if it is a unified field anyways.

Before they have the capacity to learn anything, people need to be humbled - it is the fastest way for them to realise their errors and cultivate the inspiration to better themselves, should they really possess the will.
@TibetanJazz666 Now wait a minute. You like Betterman? Talk about Fortune's privates.
"He who writes for fools always finds a large public. A precondition for reading good books is not reading bad ones: for life is short."
—Arthur Schopenhauer
Oct 30, 9:14 PM

Offline
May 2013
13225
Actually it is kinda right if you think that there is nothing after death, that would fairly prove solipsism.

As to the now dead party, it would be as good as having never existed. The concept of an exterior universe is rendered obsolete to the dead man, who in any case no longer exists at all.

Hah, but I don't think that makes any sense, and figure that the continued existence of the universe and other beings disproves not only solipsism but also atheism.
I CELEBRATE myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you.
Oct 30, 9:49 PM

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Jun 2019
6556
auroraloose said:
Man, you all are gross. This poor hyper simpleton is fixated on a bad idea he got from the internet, and is blathering about it just like the internet taught him, you, and the rest of us to do, and—you blather back meanly that he ought to know better? And even First Alcibiades-san, who impressed me yesterday, is piling on. The world is coherent? Whose coherence? Even cosmology admits the possibility of a false vacuum; then at least the physical laws we know would be impermanent, just a little crack we got stuck in as we tumble downward towards things incomprehensible.

Be nice to the troll-seeming, sometimes they really mean it and can't get out. This is MAL, my dudes. Bah, maybe I should go back to my mountain until the soothsayer of weariness stops by again.

This poor fellow did not have a single coherent thought. Pointing it out was mere Christian charity.

"Monsieur Claudel, aren't you forgetting about Christian charity?"
"The wrath of God must come first!"

Transcendental arguments require transcendence, see; this practical, instrumental reason stuff only works if you're as naive and rigid as Kant. Yes, any truth has to work given the obviousness of what we see around us, but who knows which entities are needlesly multiplied? Kant knew we couldn't see to the foundation, so he tried to do what we physicists call an effective field theory, work out the mid-level objects necessary to allow for the observable dynamics but forfend speaking of what was at the bottom, integrating out the high-momentum degrees of freedom. Coherence theories of truth fail because they assume we can see enough of the foundation to know that one thing does indeed fit with another. Eugene Thacker's In the Dust of This Planet was mostly unrigorous mumbo-jumbo for the purpose of self-aggrandizement, but his notion of the world-without-us was worth the read (as was the fun horror literary criticism). In the cosmological/field-theoretic concept of AdS/CFT, all the information in our universe is able to be defined and encapsulated in what happens at its edge, or surface, which possesses one fewer spatial dimension. And the way this information is encoded on the edge is impossibly convoluted, exactly and conceptually like a space-filling curve. So yes, we humans must perceive the world in some prescribed fashion contained within a set of possible ontologies, but it's the measure of this space of ontologies that you're ignoring.

Using mathematical metaphors is fine as long they do make sense. Otherwise, they will simply make you look pretentious to the real experts. If you studied algebraic topology, you should know that a random continuous curve is space-filling, and they do not present any technical difficulties (they are not conceptual, but their existence was non-intuitive or surprising if you prefer; you can even construct them explicitly like Weierstrass' nowhere differentiable function or Kolmolgorov's continuous function whose Fourier series diverges everywhere; "anomalies" that are the norm). A better comparison for something that is understood by its boundary would be hyperbolic geometry of even complex analysis where you can recover a function from its boundary values (the same is true for much more general elliptic equations of course). But if you were trying to find a good mathematical metaphor for something convoluted and difficult to access though explicit in its construction, the higher homotopy groups (or more simply, the cohomology ring) would been a better choice.

Otherwise, we know close to nothing abouy the "set" of possible ontologies, but it would be certainly uncountable, so any reasonable measure you would equip your space with would only have finitely many atoms and would be virtually useless to guide you (and there would likely not be a notion of canonical measure for your problem). Witkiewicz has had a brilliant idea of "psychic Lebesgue measure" (that could quantify any psychological phenomenon) in one of his novels, but this kind of literary insight (that was without a doubt humorous) does not work in philosophy...
Oct 31, 4:49 PM

Offline
May 2017
255
Reply to Meusnier
auroraloose said:
Man, you all are gross. This poor hyper simpleton is fixated on a bad idea he got from the internet, and is blathering about it just like the internet taught him, you, and the rest of us to do, and—you blather back meanly that he ought to know better? And even First Alcibiades-san, who impressed me yesterday, is piling on. The world is coherent? Whose coherence? Even cosmology admits the possibility of a false vacuum; then at least the physical laws we know would be impermanent, just a little crack we got stuck in as we tumble downward towards things incomprehensible.

Be nice to the troll-seeming, sometimes they really mean it and can't get out. This is MAL, my dudes. Bah, maybe I should go back to my mountain until the soothsayer of weariness stops by again.

This poor fellow did not have a single coherent thought. Pointing it out was mere Christian charity.

"Monsieur Claudel, aren't you forgetting about Christian charity?"
"The wrath of God must come first!"

Transcendental arguments require transcendence, see; this practical, instrumental reason stuff only works if you're as naive and rigid as Kant. Yes, any truth has to work given the obviousness of what we see around us, but who knows which entities are needlesly multiplied? Kant knew we couldn't see to the foundation, so he tried to do what we physicists call an effective field theory, work out the mid-level objects necessary to allow for the observable dynamics but forfend speaking of what was at the bottom, integrating out the high-momentum degrees of freedom. Coherence theories of truth fail because they assume we can see enough of the foundation to know that one thing does indeed fit with another. Eugene Thacker's In the Dust of This Planet was mostly unrigorous mumbo-jumbo for the purpose of self-aggrandizement, but his notion of the world-without-us was worth the read (as was the fun horror literary criticism). In the cosmological/field-theoretic concept of AdS/CFT, all the information in our universe is able to be defined and encapsulated in what happens at its edge, or surface, which possesses one fewer spatial dimension. And the way this information is encoded on the edge is impossibly convoluted, exactly and conceptually like a space-filling curve. So yes, we humans must perceive the world in some prescribed fashion contained within a set of possible ontologies, but it's the measure of this space of ontologies that you're ignoring.

Using mathematical metaphors is fine as long they do make sense. Otherwise, they will simply make you look pretentious to the real experts. If you studied algebraic topology, you should know that a random continuous curve is space-filling, and they do not present any technical difficulties (they are not conceptual, but their existence was non-intuitive or surprising if you prefer; you can even construct them explicitly like Weierstrass' nowhere differentiable function or Kolmolgorov's continuous function whose Fourier series diverges everywhere; "anomalies" that are the norm). A better comparison for something that is understood by its boundary would be hyperbolic geometry of even complex analysis where you can recover a function from its boundary values (the same is true for much more general elliptic equations of course). But if you were trying to find a good mathematical metaphor for something convoluted and difficult to access though explicit in its construction, the higher homotopy groups (or more simply, the cohomology ring) would been a better choice.

Otherwise, we know close to nothing abouy the "set" of possible ontologies, but it would be certainly uncountable, so any reasonable measure you would equip your space with would only have finitely many atoms and would be virtually useless to guide you (and there would likely not be a notion of canonical measure for your problem). Witkiewicz has had a brilliant idea of "psychic Lebesgue measure" (that could quantify any psychological phenomenon) in one of his novels, but this kind of literary insight (that was without a doubt humorous) does not work in philosophy...
I don't like being jumpy with posts like this, so I'm not going to go into everything, but for the time being I should say the following, as the math is important:

Ah, that's great. You're absolutely right that you know more math than me; I did not take algebraic topology, and I had too much fun with the analysis side and with physics, and ended up failing grad algebra. Given your examples, calling just a space-filling curve "impossibly convoluted" is clearly wrong. I am more physicist than I realized; another thing I'd do sitting in physics talks and lectures is be irritated how cavalier they were with the math, and how they'd just pretend it was some extra-specialized but mostly irrelevant magic to make physical systems turn out nice sometimes, but mostly inferior to "physical intuition." So we'd just talk about bulk/boundary identities "scrambling" information, and not worry that there are various levels of such "scrambling." I will be more careful in the future.

I was going to walk more back, but it occurs to me that you didn't really do much other than take out the "impossibly convoluted" space-filling curve bit. The encoding of bulk information in a boundary (particularly in holography like AdS/CFT) is still a perfectly good example of a strange and different ontology difficult for humans whose perception is bound to three spatial dimensions to comprehend. If the actual "stuff" is two-dimensional, and it only seems like we're three-dimensional beings, that makes the universe a lot stranger and unhuman than we thought. I have no idea how you'd encode on the boundary taking someone's wallet in the bulk; where even would the wallet be? (Though I should take that back; encoding at least particle interactions is precisely what AdS/CFT does. We generally don't have Feynman diagrams of giant, local things like wallets though.) Even the space-filling curve is a good entry example to the kind of thing happening in holography. And I think that might be more accessible than our ability to define complex-analytic functions by their values on a boundary, though again you're certainly right there are more convoluted examples. These aren't as practically or directly relevant as holography to the universe being much weirder than we think, though.

I also think measure isn't a bad thing to appeal to when considering the space of possibilities; being simplistic, it's a generalized volume that works on non-spatial things (understanding very well that there's a lot more to a measure). And I think the further you get into physics the more important the volume of the sample space becomes, such that it's easy for that sentiment to transfer to other fields. Having limited horizons always messes up our problem-solving, and in particular is relevant here for how we define coherence. The bit about actually formulating a measure for the "'set' of possible ontologies" was fun; I didn't intend to appeal to such a thing as rigorously definable. And I agree that the "psychic Lebesgue measure" thing is amusing.

So yes, I'll be more careful, but my metaphors do, in fact, make sense.

Meanwhile, I'm always happy when someone actually knows something around here.

EDIT: But wait: Where did that Monsieur Claudel thing come from? He certainly knows what's up, but theologically I'd say that principle isn't applicable here.
auroralooseOct 31, 4:54 PM
"He who writes for fools always finds a large public. A precondition for reading good books is not reading bad ones: for life is short."
—Arthur Schopenhauer
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