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zenmodeman May 31, 12:20 PM
Alright, I think that's all. Was nice talking about this stuff.
If you do find that proto-analysis at some point, or end up doing something similar in the future, be sure to let me know.
zenmodeman May 30, 11:35 PM
1. In episode 10 when Lain talks with her father, he tells her he loves her but also calls her by “Miss. Lain,” which is generally too formal for such a statement. This leads me to believe that the dialogue we witnessed in that moment wasn’t exactly how it played out in reality but rather slightly skewed due to Lain’s desire to be loved. I would be inclined to call that Lain imagining something that didn’t happen as it doesn’t seem to relate to virtuality, but perhaps you don’t agree with my premise for that scene.
2. Structurally, I interpreted the events in the early episodes of Lain gradually showcasing how the real word and the virtual were becoming more and more blurred. It just seemed to me that something like Mika being mentally hacked seemed more appropriate an episode later.

3. I guess that is reasonable. The wired does present several concepts and considering Lain interacting with another Lain near the end, I can accept that. Though the main reason I was led to consider the sources of these projections was the mother projection mirroring the ideologies ot Eiri to a degree, which considering Eiri’s attempts to manipulate Lain even in the very begginning of the show, seems reasonable even if none the other projections have sources.

5. Regarding the belief that Eiri or the Knights created Evil Lain, I don’t believe we got any indication of Evil Lain existing before episode 8. It could be possible that’s when Evil Lain was finally created and that the Knights’ interactions with Lain of the wired were necessary to manifest it. But given my interpretation to question 4, regarding the plans of the prophecy to cause Lain to enter a state of turmoil, this seems like an appropriate source for Lain’s manifesting of evil lain as the part of herself she hated. Although Eiri creating Lain does make sense, at least with my interpretations on the implications of those narrative events, I do still think it seems more appropriate for Eiri to have been merely utilizing evil Lain, with Lain herself “creating” her. Under such an interpretation, I would be led to believe that Evil Lain has no agency without being controlled by Eiri, so this could still explain why she never appeared after Lain accepted Eiri’s plan at the end of episode 11 and after she defeated Eiri. Of course, the idea of Eiri creating Lain is much simpler for explaining her not being present near the end, but the events with the knights and the prophecy I think work better with Evil Lain being created by Lain. If Eiri did in fact create Evil Lain, why did she never appear until episode 8, as Eiri was trying to manipulate Lain long before that.

6. so you would say that ultimately, Lain herself used Eiri as an acting god because she herself wanted to merge the ego and the transcended Lain? If so, that’s interesting although do you have more evidence supporting this belief? This would solve question 7 pretty well too, but I’m just wondering if there’s enough evidence to reach this conclusion.

I’d say you gave pretty solid responses. Serial Experiments Lain is certainly an interesting show to talk about considering how many reasonable interpretations there are. Konaka and the reat of the staff did do a pretty good job as that’s what they were aiming for. I’ve had several discussions on Lain and it’s nice to see that even after countless discussions, I still see some new perspectives I haven’t come across.
zenmodeman May 30, 11:09 AM
Took a while for me to sit down and actually collect my thoughts.

Q1: At the very end of episode 3, Do you think the "Welcome home, sis" scene is real or imaginary?

I presume it's something Mika imagined, to potentially suggest that she's weird as well or to foreshadow what Lain would become, as it reminds me a bit of how Lain behaved once she accepted Eiri's assertion that she's software. Though if this were the intent, it does seem a bit weird for Mika who has no idea of what will become of Lain to imagine such a thing.

Q2: In episode 5, are we provided with enough context regarding the Knights hacking into Mika's mind?

I would assume that the merging of the real world and the wired allowed the Knights to hack into people's minds as if they were computers, but the problem I have here is that the merging of the two worlds I don't think was pronounced enough for such a thing to happen. It would seem more appropriate by the time of episode 6 with the image of Lain in the sky.

Q3: What is the source of Projection #1, 2, and 4 that talk to Lain in episode 5?
Let me first paraphrase what the projections said in case you forgot. The first projection, a child's toy, tells Lain that she knows everything so there's nothing it can tell Lain. The second projection, a mask, talks about history not being just a straight line of cause and effect but rather scattered pieces of information connected by people or actions that forms into reality. The third projection, Lain's mom, talks about the possibility of the wired being the true world and the "real world" just a mirror of it. This projection talks about the importance of information travelling as impulses. The fourth projection, Lain's Dad, introduces the "Deus of the Wired" but also questions whether such an entity could be called god. Now, projection #3 with Lain's mom seems similar to something Eiri would say, so it could be reasonably inferred it came from him or the Knights. But the other 3 statements don't exactly align with the Knights' agenda or with Eiri, so I'm not entirely sure what their source is. A possible source for the fourth projection is the "true god" if one were to interpret the figure Lain encountered in episode 13 as god taking the form of her father. If this were true, it could be possible this "god" is providing Lain with a hint regarding Eiri not truly being god, which could be tied to what Lain says to Eiri in episode 12, but I'm not entirely sure if this is the best interpretation for this.

Q4: Why exactly was Mika involved with the Knights' prophecy and what exactly was the prophecy meant to do? Who planted the bomb in Lain's room?
I'm asking more in a narrative sense than a thematic sense, as episode 5 regarding Mika had some pretty interesting ideas thematically. A common theory is that Mika was the one to plant the bomb into Lain's room which led to the men in black helping her. In this way, the "prophecy" could be interpreted as Eiri's attempts to convince Lain to carry out with the merging of the real world and the wired. Though if this is the case, it does seem a bit convoluted of a plan. As both the Knights and the men in black ultimately work for Eiri so why exactly did he need to play the two unknowing sides as puppets against each other? Was there really no better way to convince Lain? I guess possibly the betrayal of the Knights to Lain could have been a factor for Evil Lain gaining prominence, which was one of the biggest factors for her accepting Eiri, so I guess this approach does have some weight, though I'm wondering if you have a better explanation for why Eiri had to do these specific things in his attempt to carry out the prophecy.

Q5: Did Eiri create Evil Lain or did she arise as a result of Lain herself?
I'm more inclined to believe the latter and that Eiri merely utilized evil Lain after Lain was the one to manifest her. Do you agree?
In Episode 8, Lain mentions Evil Lain as the side of her that she hates, but was this contextualized well? We didn't really get an indication of Lain repressing her feelings to the point of it manifesting as Evil Lain. We didn't really get an emphasis on a side of Lain she hates for Evil Lain to work as effectively as it could have, unless I'm missing something. But this still seems a more reasonable source as to how Evil Lain arose, since in all the other instances of people using representations of Lain, they resembled Lain of the Wired more than Evil Lain, so I think we have no reason to believe Evil Lain actually existed before the events of episode 8.

Q6: What did Lain really mean by her statements regarding god to Eiri in episode 12?
Lain brings up that Eiri was merely an acting god and that someone else was waiting for the wired to reach this level. The most reasonable interpretation is that there is indeed a god above Lain in the series, likely the person Lain met with in episode 13, who was represented as Lain's father. However, the question I have with this is why did this god want to do this in the first place? We don't get insight onto any motivation an individual may have for Eiri's plan to be fulfilled.

Q7: How much of what we knew of Lain reinforced the "Love narrative" that consoles her at the end?
Lain being told that she loves everyone is what allows her to retain her sanity after her sacrifice. I'm just not sure if what we got within the show was enough to really justify this conclusion. I guess her concern with the fate of the KIDS experiment was the most promiment clue, and there's also her remorse for the guy who killed a child playing Phantoma. But I felt we needed more to reinforce an idea so important.

And that's about it. This is a bit long, but I wanted to provide my thought process to these questions to. I have come up with my own answers for most of these questions as you can see but I'm not entirely certain on them.
zenmodeman May 26, 3:33 PM
Hello there. Though I never did end up finishing that Lain review, I'm wondering if we could talk about the show a bit. There were a few doubts that I had with some aspects of its execution while I was rewatching the show last year and was wondering whether you wouldn't mind trying to answer my questions.
AnyGoSusanghan34 Jan 11, 1:35 PM
Just finding people of common interest and see what people like to enjoy within the anime/manga world.
Arimias Dec 25, 2018 3:36 PM
Merry Christmas man
Shimbels Oct 30, 2018 12:24 AM
Thank you for your kind words about my review
Arimias Oct 22, 2018 3:11 PM
Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou
21 seconds ago
Dropped 2/26 · Scored 5

Ah, too bad Kare Kano didn't sit well with you. It's one of my favorites, but I'm sure you're aware of the downgrade it has near its conclusion, so dropping it now might be for the best if it didn't impress you initially.
Schirmulous Sep 25, 2018 4:43 PM
Thanks a lot man, and no problem. :)
Schirmulous Sep 22, 2018 3:58 PM
Hit me with your animu on the 3x3 mang.
Fakkuu Aug 15, 2018 5:41 PM
Sup bro it's me birdman satou from discord UwU
TBsq Aug 13, 2018 4:38 AM
"Are you kidding me? It's extremely obvious this is what the audience wanted. The only reason EoE exists is because Anno got death threats over the original ending which fans hated. The fact is that the first half of the movie is well received and it's giving them exactly what they wanted by making the themes easier to understand because seemingly the majority of people didn't get it the first time around. The audience want conflict, they want to see the big robots fight, they want to see some weird direct shows of romance between Shinji and one of the girls (in this case Misato). This is really obvious stuff, it plainly reels the series back to when it was simpler to comprehend for no good reason other than to appeal to a wider audience."

I absolutely don't agree with that at all but I see your point. But again we have different interpretations.

"The simplicity is laziness for the sake of wider appeal. You cannot argue against the fact that the last 15 minutes or so are lazy, they go against the age old rule of "show, don't tell" because boy does it tell. It's not done in an creative way, there's no meaningful images during this sequence (except arguably surface level stuff), there's no quirky dialogue which ties in thematically like in the original last two episodes. It's just Anno using the characters as a platform in the most simple way possible."

If you don't find the 2nd hald of the film creative I really don't know what to say to you really. The cinematography and pacing are the exact opposite of lazy. Yeah it does tell, but contrary to the essay-like EoTV, it's just scattered thoughts that feels like poetry, I feel so much power in such simple words/ideas in this context. I just think it doesn't appeal to you, it's not what you are looking for and that's fine. Really I think it's better that you like the original "ending" more, it somehow shows that you're not as broken as many others are. I personnaly found more meaning in this than any other film I've watched.

It feels like you would give this movie a 6 instead of the 9 you gave it, and I think it's strange.
TBsq Aug 13, 2018 2:14 AM
"The first half is the classic, action based, easy to digest narrative which is trying to remind the audience of the good old times before the series went to shit and got all emo and the cool big robots stopped fighting... I mean, there's some spectacular moments but they don't really change anything except make the character dynamics more obvious. This is thematic whiplash and the sudden grounding of the series really has no purpose except to give the audience at the time what they wanted, and it certainly feels pointless when we get onto the second half of the movie."

It's not what the audience wanted, but what has to utlimately happen, war and death, which is led by the misundenrstading of people, one of the main themes of the series, is a reality of our world and show another side of reality that the protagonist must confront.

"I guess you could argue that the character relationships and the fate of humanity get more of an explanation, but even then it's not much and as the original ending presents this is unnecessary information. The point of Evangelion isn't SEELE, they're meant to be cryptic and not have an explanation to where they came from and where they're apparently going. The point of Evangelion is it's core cast and the aesthetic value of the show is it's presentation of how fragile humanity through this aforementioned cast."

Not because it's not the main arc it means that it doesn't have to be resolved. After all Shinji is just a part of humanity that serves as a figure for everyone else's neurosis. Even the end of episode 24 begs for resolution. There's a relation between the two arcs of the show but I won't discuss that here.

Other than that I don't think it contradicts with what I said. I think that what you think as "dumb" is really just "simple", and there's nothing wring with that within the right context.
TBsq Aug 12, 2018 4:01 PM
I wouldn't say it's a mess, it's more like chaos. Mess is pointless, chaos is beautiful. It's on the same level as the end of 2001 A Space Odyssey for me (Even better considering it's my favorite movie).

It's the same message by the point of view is drastically different. EoTV is from the rational/immanent point of view, whereas EoE is emotionnal/transcendant. Everything in the direction makes me believe this and both ends show that with their respective symbolism, tone, art, music and cinematography.

EoTV is the ideal closure for Shinji, because he rationally solves his problems, but reality is something else, something that applies in your head maybe doesn't apply in the real world, and you must confront your thoughts with your actual emotions that crystallize in the real world. So for me this is not the "real" end, be the one Shinji wanted. Both are complementary and equally amazing. I even think EoTV is some kind of satire of people who think they can solve their own problems using only their rationnality, most notably beacause of the congratulation and the cheerful music.

I will make a parallel with Persona (1966), which has a scene that is repeated 2 times, the first time is the emotionnal reaction of a rationnal discourse, and the 2nd time is the same discourse delivered without emotions. Like in EoE it tells the importance of both points of view.
TBsq Aug 12, 2018 1:31 PM
I saw that you didn't like The End Evangelion as much as the "original" ending. For what reason?