Why do people consider "self-loathing" in media as something good?

who doesn't like someone/something who is self-aware?

@TsutanaiFuun You can sometimes be too self-aware. Just look at how Hollywood now constantly punishes sincerity and investment, instead rewarding cynicism and indifference.

@AzafuseKingTora i mean that's hollywood. not much of a standard to measure against these days. still yeah too much of it can't be good. though i haven't encountered too much of it in ani-manga medium yet.

Other examples of anime where the animators/writers hate the fanbase? If it's just Evangelion then LULE

A little bit of poking at your fanbase can be fine; The game Super Paper Mario has this obnoxious nerd character named Francis who's kind of a parody of otakus; He goes on longwinded rants about his interests, complains about games he's never played, and is... weird with women at the best of times. I personally found him pretty funny. Sometimes it's just fun to laugh at yourself or your own hobbies and community.

Obviously, this can go too far and become a little too negative or too mean, but I think in moderation it can be okay.

Other examples of anime where the animators/writers hate the fanbase? If it's just Evangelion then LULE

@TsutanaiFuun And that's a good thing. If there's something I'd despise more than Isekai's current infestation is Ani-Manga getting Irony poisoned

@AzafuseKingTora yeah that won't be very nice. this is the one medium where everything's as it should be.

@BigBoyAdvance
I get the feeling that the author of Welcome to the NHK doesn't hold any of us in high regard.

@TsutanaiFuun I think anime has a lot of problems but I agree.

So are we talking about creators like Anno (supposedly) hating his fanbase? And these creators are (supposedly) trying to sound superior?

Or are we talking about the fans hating themselves for liking the thing they like? Or are we talking about the fans liking a thing that supposedly hates this other thing they hate???

@perseii
We are talking about "fans" finding themselves smarter for hating the thing they supposedly like, and also finding media that supposedly hates itself as being better.

@AzafuseKingTora yea that's true but not as much as hollywood i guess. nothing really bothers me in this medium. im pretty satisfied

@TsutanaiFuun I'm bothered by the sterilization, repetitiousness, and hedonism.

@epidemia78 More like he didn't hold himself in high regard, he briefly talks about it and his experiences in his novel and then a few years after his novel was released.

@AzafuseKingTora yeah repitition is present but it doesn't bother me all that much. as for hedonism, you mean its showcase in animes? idk what you mean by sterilization.

"DID YOU KNOW THAT EVANGELION WAS ABOUT HOW ANNO HATED THE FANBASE?" (Which is a lie, BTW)"

Really?
Anno clearly hates otakus and being an ex-otaku makes him a traitor. The worst part being that the japanese otakus are deeply masochistic and Eva is exploiting exactly that.

So yeah, self-loating comes from masochism, but I think the OP is trying to add self-irony to the mix which is wrong - "recognizes that the entire genre is stupid". I disagree with that part - not taking yourself seriously is a positive thing (and the exact opposite if what Eva is doing).

@alshu END of Evangelion specifically is Anno hating his fanbase but Evangelion as a whole is a general critique of escapism.

@TsutanaiFuun With hedonism I reffer to shows that solely exist to be an escapist fantasy with no substance, effort or creativity put into them, weither it's the hundreth Isekai about a social reject reincarnating as a Gary Stu or yet another Echii harem with the exact same characters and tropes we've been seeing.

With sterilization I mean everything down to the animation feels too plastic and souless, everything is designed to look as cuddly as possible with zero expressivity, and in Shounen storylines became safe and formulaic.

Maybe it's my taste We rarely get stuff like Cowboy Beebop, Serial Experiments Lain or Guren Lagaan anymore that isn't from a certain studio like Trigger, Production IG or MadHouse. And when shows try try they usually fall flat (with exceptions) weither it's being rushed or lacking ambition.

And we don't even talk about genres/demographics like Shoujo or Mecha. They're being slept on hard.

I've been glossing over remakes and adaptations of old Manga. Hunter x Hunter and Kaiji (to name a few) are cool but there should be more new good IP's which there thankfully seem to be more of. (Sakamoto Days, Mecha-Ude and Bucchigiri all look like stuff I'd wanna watch).

Same thing with the recent trend of adapting decadent western IP's. Batman, Rick and Morty, Terminator, Scott Pilgrim and Cyberpunk might be cool but what about stuff like Wheel of Time, Bone, Warriors or Usagi Yojimbo? Just to name adaptations people were asking for, I'd personally like a Cybersix reboot or a Megas XLR continuation.

Hideaki Anno (creator of Neon Genesis Evangelion) said it himself, studios should take more risks and make fresh and different ideas.

@AzafuseKingTora you're right in recent animes most are going for the safe bet. people these days are overly sensitive and even if someone wants to try something that is different from the usual then its highly likely they will face backlash. i'll agree there hasn't been originality these days with the new animes but maybe that's also because its manga came out a long time ago. as for the hedonism, nothing much can be done. i mean they get successful, there are many people who self-insert and watch those types of animes to escape their reality. its all about the dopamine. even the creators try to make it like that. weak mc working hard to become strong. who doesn't like to watch that?

for sterilization i kinda get what you mean, i just assumed that's how the current gen art and animation styles are. i mean it looks nice enough.

there was a thread a few months back here on AD about how shoujo is really lost these days. there were hundreds of replies and i remember people saying many people would love to have more shoujo animes but for some reason we aren't getting many shoujo animes even with so many good mangas available. even the existing shoujo animes aren't fully adapted while their mangas are finished.

i don't really blame studios for trying to play it safe. not everyone can afford to take risks but when i see animes like mushoku tensei, Inu ni Nattara Suki na Hito ni Hirowareta etc. it feels like not all hope is lost. i mean they are daring enough to make animes like these with questionable morality even with the potential backlash from social media.

i've never heard of these titles lol.

but overall i get what you mean. watching modern animes just doesn't hit the same, they don't feel the same, the vibes are different. i still find myself going back to watch animes from early 2000s to 2010s. for some reason i just love watching those animes with their signature 2000s art-style and animation quality. i don't really know how to describe it but i get an utter joy out of watching animes from those time period. it felt like they are really made to showcase the story and not just for money, they had some weight to them. or maybe its the feeling of nostalgia of that time period. whatever it is, its the one thing the modern animation and flashy adaptation can't compare with. i'll take a good 710p res 2006 romance anime any day over something like demon slayer.

this just reminded me how i'm currently watching a very risky anime. koi kaze, its from 2004 and i can bet anything it will be instantly cancelled if it is aired today. despite its plot being what it is i really like it for what its trying to show. its not just some fantasy or fetish of someone. they show us the mental troubles of being in that situation which you really have no control over. without spoiling i'll just say it deals with GSA (genetic sexual attraction). the premise is questionable but so far what i've watched i've liked watching how the characters are dealing with it while hating themselves for it and knowing how immoral it is.

@TsutanaiFuun The titles I mentioned are definitely not mainstream, but are highly regarded within their neiches.

Megas XLR is bassically Cartoon Network's attempt at a mecha show, was quickly cancelled for not selling enough toys and frozen with tax layoffs. Same with Sym-Bionic Titan, though I'd rather give that one to Masaki Yuuasa and Science SARU.

Cybersix actually had an Anime in the late 90's, though it was made with kids in mind despite the very source material. TMS, The studio who animated it also did outsourcing for Batman TAS and Animaniacs so it definitely doesn't look like Anime but trust me, it is.

Warriors is widely known as that fantasy book cat ladies and soon-to-be furry RPers like, but despite it's reputation, it would be an interesting spiritual successor to something like Ginga Nagareboshi Ging (Old Shounen Jump Anime, bassically Hokuto no Ken or Saint Seiya but with talking dogs) or those 80's animated shows and movies where cute animals are graphically killed. (Y'know the ones).

Usagi Yojimbo is similarly known for constantly crossing over with the Ninja Turtles but it was also a surprisingly accurate depiction of Japanese history and folklore despite being a "Funny Animal" comic (or a Furry comic really) and coming out in the 80's before Anime got popular in the west.

Haven't read it but Wheel of Time is a 2000's fantasy novel, very LOTR, people say the live action adaptation was horrible. I wouldn't propose an Anime adaptation if Deltora Quest didn't get one too. And I guess Berserk and SoulsBornRing aswell as many others are both very western in their style despite being Japanese too so yeah, it could work.

Bone is a similar case, bassically you put a bunch of cartoony marshmallows in a gritty dark fantasy world. It's a cult classic, doubt could work as well but again, Yuuasa and SARU for that.

@theWiru What you just described is pure midwittery. Those people who go "deconstruction good genre bad" don't even understand what a deconstruction is. And I do agree it's TV Tropes' fault that we have the misuse of the concept of deconstruction.

Deconstruction is an approach in critiquing media, not making media. Derrida (the philosopher who conceptualized deconstruction) thought of it to further our understanding of certain themes in media. It's effectively a means to tear down media to their own building blocks and then reassemble them again back into a bigger picture, but with enhanced understanding of the media. Effectively it's similar to those who do these deep dives on muh symbolism in Japanese cartoons. However, what those types miss is the simple fact that deconstruction doesn't focus purely on motifs and symbols but also on the social circumstances that shaped a medium. To apply this to Eva (which you cited as an example, correctly so, of the midwit pseud fanbase), this means that all the yammering about the muh Death Sea Scrolls and muh crosses and muh Angels is simply put incorrect - they never took into account what Anno intended and what he didn't intend. He wanted, simply put, to do a mecha coming of age story but with the stylization of Ultraman (which actually had some Christian imagery because the creator of that was a devout Catholic). And that's exactly what he did, no more no less. Everything else is just personal theories that really make no difference in the end, except they also make you sound pseudointellectual and full of hot air.

@TheMechaManiac There's actually some real deconstruction in Eva that applies to that description, while It's true Annos original intentions were just that, he also wanted to use it as a way to vent, regarding his depression and Otaku culture's excessive abuse of escapism. Considering a very common theme in It's characters is running away from responsibilities and lying to yourself. It's more a deconstruction of Otaku and the Anime Industry really.

@AzafuseKingTora You just ended up making the same mistake I mentioned. Read my post again.

Evangelion isn't against the anime industry, let alone otaku. Once again, if we actually deconstruct Eva (by going with the Derrida method) you see there's nothing specifically against the anime industry that underpins it as an anime. Personal frustration? Sure, some of it is related to previous bad experiences in the anime industry. Outright hatred of the anime industry? No, Anno is a big geek who knows his mecha and tokusatsu. Otaku hate? Once again no, that annoyance came long after he was done with Eva, and he was never against chill people who just like Eva.

There are mecha works that touch on the concept of otaku but Eva isn't one of them.