Zangetsu10 said: HungryForQuality said: What's an example of an anime that presented its themes in a subtle and mature way according to you? Everyone is going to kill me over this first example, but I felt that Guilty Crown expressed themes of the corruption of power and the nature of power over others in a complex, mature way. Also, as others in this forum have talked about, Psycho Pass dealt with different ideas of justice in a mature way. Where's my pitchfork?! ...Joking aside, even bad series can have legitimately interesting philosophy or psychology peppered into it. Guilty Crown's problem isn't whether the ideas behind it were genuine, it was how poorly executed it was. If anything, many bad anime actually do have genuine questions about similar topics, because it's honestly an easy way to add complexity to a story, and give the plot more worth. I think people have a problem with perceiving psychology and philosophy in anime. If an anime tackles philosophy competently, it's automatically a good series. If a good anime tackles philosophy badly, it's automatically a bad anime. That's not really how it works, I've seen many good anime that are incredibly sloppy with presenting these kinds of things. I haven't given Death Note any real thought in regards to it's themes since I watched it in high school and haven't cared enough to revisit it, so I can't give input how philosophical it is in nature. It would be a great example of anime that are good that bungle the deeper themes and ideas though. I'll let you guys decide whether it is or not, I'm too lazy to attempt to dive into to it, it's literally been over a decade since I last watched it. |
 |
| Interesting read @CHC, what would your thoughts be on the Monogatari Series despite how much I enjoyed the show, I'm having some doubts whether its trying hard to be intellectual or it really is with its multiple references to Japanese literature. |
| I am going to defend animes in your middlebrow tier.. LotGH is more like reading history book/article/wikipedia for me though. It was never really trying to be philosophical, it's more about huge scale war and world building.. Yes, GitS's philosophical stuff is quite overrated, but it still better than majority of other "deep" animes, moreover GitS was one of the first of them.. Yeah, I also know that GitS was heavily influenced by Blade Runner, but GitS influenced many other after that.. |
"The Slave is the have-not, the oppressed one with nothing to spare. But because the Slave is in that despairing situation, having nothing, it can kill the Emperor !" |
| well that's completely subjective and personal I don't think fate zero and psychopass are geniunely philosophical at all |
| @CHC might be a shock for you but fate stay night is not an actual sequel to fate zero, a pseudo sequel the fate zero you watched take place in a parallel world that happen to have similar events to that of FSN version of zero Fate zero has no actual sequel technically that is lad |
LightningSoul said: Interesting read @CHC, what would your thoughts be on the Monogatari Series despite how much I enjoyed the show, I'm having some doubts whether its trying hard to be intellectual or it really is with its multiple references to Japanese literature. Monogatari literally misses every occasion to deal with its themes in favor or more MCxunderage girl moments... >.> |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
Phantomnocomics said: @CHC might be a shock for you but fate stay night is not an actual sequel to fate zero, a pseudo sequel the fate zero you watched take place in a parallel world that happen to have similar events to that of FSN version of zero Fate zero has no actual sequel technically that is lad This isn't true. Fate/Zero has no routes because it wasn't a v/n. It's a set-in-stone prequel to all three routes of F/SN |
 |
| ... Philosophy is easy compared to trying to understand the release order of stuff like Monogatari or Fate. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
CHC said: simonephone said: Eh, that's a pretty bold statement coming from someone with honestly a very bland and shallow interpretation of these shows. Both Lain and Angels Egg are extremely complex, you both want to dismiss the interpretations of others while not diving very deep with your own criticisms. How about a reply to my much longer post about the philosophical implications of Lain hmm? What's your rebuttle for that. I'm engaging in so many different conversation here. It takes a lot of time for me to read and reply every post. Don't be so pissed off just because I'm not going into every detail. I was just trying to clarify what I mean when I said "they're trying too hard". I wasn't giving you are thorough critique of those interpretation because it wasn't my intention to converting you to my position. I was just stating what my position is. You're right I shouldn't have been pissed off, was having a bad day sorry for being like that. This is just a frustrating thread because you're so dismissive but you're not very good at backing your own claims at all. Like what do you even think Lains motivations were if she wasn't motivated by her interpretations of philosophical ideas? Do you think she was just making decisions randomly? Maybe youre not here to convince me but showing up. On this board and making a bunch of extremely unpopular statements on classic shows and then not really backing up your opinions very much is not really gonna make you look very good. Edit also I can assure you that Lain having mpd is not what the plot of that show is about if you want to take it in a non metaphorical way. I guess you could see it as being a metaphor for mpd, but that's definitely not what the plot of that show is about at all. Maybe you should pay a bit more attention if you ever rewatch. If you meant in a metaphorical way that would be debatable though not how most would interpret it. but if you're saying that's what was happening in the literal plot of that show you're just objectively wrong. |
ChromephoneDec 6, 2018 7:45 AM
Deathko said: LightningSoul said: Interesting read @CHC, what would your thoughts be on the Monogatari Series despite how much I enjoyed the show, I'm having some doubts whether its trying hard to be intellectual or it really is with its multiple references to Japanese literature. Monogatari literally misses every occasion to deal with its themes in favor or more MCxunderage girl moments... >.> >Watches show which regularly spends 90% of its runtime discussing its themes. > Sees a 1-minute scene of 'lolicon' content. > Monogatari is all about fanservice. |
 |
| @DumpsterKing My experience with Monogatari in a nutshell: *MC bathes with the vampire that lives in his shadow* Me: "Oh hey, powerful scene about the MC dealing with his past errors and guilt when he's alone and most prone to overthink-" The characters: "Lol u cute, can I touch your nipples? Imagine if my sister walked in now-" *the sister walks in* the sister: "BAKA BROTHER! I'LL KILL YOU!" Me: "No please, kill me instead." |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Deathko said: @DumpsterKing My experience with Monogatari in a nutshell: *MC bathes with the vampire that lives in his shadow* Me: "Oh hey, a powerful scene about the MC dealing with his past errors and guilt when he's alone and most prone to overthink-" The characters: "Lol u cute, can I touch your nipples? Imagine if my sister walked in now-" *the sister walks in* the sister: "BAKA BROTHER! I KILL YOU!" Me: "No please, kill me instead." He had already done that though. That entire bath scene was about Shinobu and Araragi coming to terms and Nisemonogatari, in general, was about how sexuality defines the characters. For instance, Araragi actually doesn't make any sexual comments to Shinobu in that scene iirc displaying how they can bare themselves to each other. |
|
| @DumpsterKing I'm going to post that scene here because it's the one I had the best memories of, and rewatching it recently shattered my delusions: This scene goes exaaaactly like this: *Talk about le plot for 10s, and Shinobu mentions her age because vampire loli are so cool. Then, funny music plays and the camera does a nice back and forth between Shinobu and Araragi with the obvious intent of making people go "lol reverse cowgirl with a loli". Shinobu goes tsundere on Araragi and teases him, calling him a baka hentai. They talk about complete nonsense and donuts for 1 min, then the sister walks in and goes all "baka brother I'll kill you" tsundere mode.* Really, I went into that scene trying my best to find qualities in it because I had good memories of that moment. Except that scene has no qualities. They don't come to term with anything, there's no actual meaning, it's one of the most pointless and unfunny pervy dialog I've had to endure in anime. Any joke in Golden Boy holds more meaning than this dialog. |
DeathkoDec 6, 2018 11:41 AM
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Deathko said: @DumpsterKing I'm going to post that scene here because it's the one I had the best memories of, and rewatching it recently shattered my delusions: This scene goes exactly like this: *Talk about the le plot for 10s, and Shinobu mentions her age because vampire loli is so cool. Then, funny music plays and the camera does a nice back and forth between Shinobu and Araragi with the obvious intent of making people go "lol reverse cowgirl with a loli". Shinobu goes tsundere on Araragi and teases him, calling him a baka hentai. They talk about complete nonsense and doughnuts for 1 min, then the sister walks in and goes all "baka brother I'll kill you" tsundere mode.* Really, I went into that scene trying my best to find qualities in it because I had good memories of that moment. Except that scene has no qualities. They don't come to term with anything, there's no actual meaning, it's one of the most pointless and unfunny pervy dialogue I've had to endure in anime. Any joke in Golden Boy holds more meaning than this dialogue. Considering that's what people in Monogatari usually talk like, I count that as bonding. Edit: Particularly after 1:11 Araragi mentions that they are an integral part of each other and Shinobu agrees. |
DumpsterKingDec 6, 2018 12:14 PM
|
| @DumpsterKing Wich brings us back to my first point, Monogatari misses every opportunity to explore its own themes decently in favor of "baka hentai" chatter. "bonding" isn't a theme, and this scene isn't exploring any aspect of human interactions in meaningful way. Somehow this dialog would be treated for what it's worth in a show like HotD, but in Monogatari wich magically avoids the Ecchi and Harem tags to manage its fanbase's sensibility, this is super-deep socialization between two broken hearts. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
| I think what you classify as a "geniunely philosophical" work is one that clearly takes a stance on issues it introduces and challenges and/or makes a case for those viewpoints blended in it's narrative. And while I do appreciate those shows greatly, I wouldn't say that this approach is a prerequisite for being considered philosophical. Surely, there is value in abstruse works which require scrutiny and pondering in order to be unleashed to it's fullest potential. I would even go as far as to say they fulfill their purpose more deftly as it entices the viewer to think for themselves, to arrive to their own conclusions rather than being given one to work with. Certainly the latter makes it more accessible but going for a more unorthodox approach doesn't take away it's philosophical value. For some it may be tedious or unengaging but that's another discussion about literary criticism, isn't it? I also want to say that a lot of the responds you've been getting are unwarrantedly harsh. Hope I didn't came off like that too, I'm trying to improve on the way I express my disagreement. |
 |
Deathko said: @DumpsterKing Wich brings us back to my first point, Monogatari misses every opportunity to explore its own themes decently in favour of "baka hentai" chatter. "bonding" isn't a theme, and this scene isn't exploring any aspect of human interactions in a meaningful way. Somehow this dialogue would be treated for what it's worth in a show like HotD, but in Monogatari which magically avoids the Ecchi and Harem tags to manage its fanbase's sensibility, this is super-deep socialization between two broken hearts. I didn't claim it was particularly deep, just that it wasn't just fanservice. I doubt Nisio had any deeper meaning than what is presented in the text when writing this considering he started writing this in response to the influx of generic harem LN's of the time. Bakemonogatari took the harem archetypes, made them into fully realised characters while pointing out the self-destructive nature of said archetypes and made a point about how you need to address your issues with a style unique to him. Nise was about how you can use fanservice to advance narrative (Shinobu and Araragi literally baring themselves to each other, Araragi coming to terms with the parts of his sister he doesn't accept through the tooth brushing scene and foreshadowing how far Nadeko will go for Araragi by how willing she is to expose herself to him and gives evidence that she isn't as innocent she presents herself). etc. |
|
Zangetsu10 said: Death Note and Code Geass are obviously the most popular pseudo-philosophical anime. The themes in those shows are so ham-fisted it's crazy. Ever second of every episode of Death Note pounds the themes of the corruption of power and capital punishment into your head. The same is also true for Code Geass with the "ends justify the means" philosophy which is also a ridiculous ethical point. No one can seriously think that way. In my opinion, a truly philosophical piece of fiction needs to express its themes in a much more subtle way. Ham-fisted themes make an anime seem really immature. I think you need to bear in mind that Death Note was published in Shounen Jump and therefore is limited in how subtle it can be. It's a very good introduction to that idea for younger people who haven't thought about it before. While Code Geass is original, it's aiming for the same effect I believe. |
|
Vorpality said: Phantomnocomics said: @CHC might be a shock for you but fate stay night is not an actual sequel to fate zero, a pseudo sequel the fate zero you watched take place in a parallel world that happen to have similar events to that of FSN version of zero Fate zero has no actual sequel technically that is lad This isn't true. Fate/Zero has no routes because it wasn't a v/n. It's a set-in-stone prequel to all three routes of F/SN ?....the differences between the light novel and VN are the least issue lad a noob to the nasuverse?, no issue,even hardcore lore fans are confused by the nasuverse it is officially stated by nasu and in the guidebooks that they are set in the parallel world in ace magazine volume 10 |
Deathko said: ... Philosophy is easy compared to trying to understand the release order of stuff like Monogatari or Fate. it is simple though fate zero is a parallel world to FSN FSN is parallel worlds to itself Hallow ataraxia is parallel world to FSN as a pseudo sequel and strange fake is a parallel world to FSN/Hallow ataraxia anything other than those are parallel worlds to other parallel worlds and all of those are in a fake/true state till some vampire wizard observe them *brain.exe * crushed because of nasuverse |
PhantomnocomicsDec 6, 2018 2:08 PM
Zangetsu10 said: DumpsterKing said: I think you need to bear in mind that Death Note was published in Shounen Jump and therefore is limited in how subtle it can be. It's a very good introduction to that idea for younger people who haven't thought about it before. While Code Geass is original, it's aiming for the same effect I believe. I have seen a lot of shonen, many of which were published in Shonen Jump, that are more subtle in their themes than Death Note. For example, there are actually a lot of subtle themes in Naruto. The nature of power and even nationalism is explored in it. In what meaningful way? Not in any way that isn't explored in Code Geass for example, unless I'm missing something. I have no idea how you think it comments on power either. Furthermore, considering the corruption of power and capital punishment are the main themes of Death Note, it's better to leave them unsubtle to avoid confusion. If you introduce a grey area, you leave behind a considerable demographic who just want to see a black and white conflict. |
|
Zangetsu10 said: DumpsterKing said: In what meaningful way? Not in any way that isn't explored in Code Geass for example, unless I'm missing something. I have no idea how you think it comments on power either. Furthermore, considering the corruption of power and capital punishment are the main themes of Death Note, it's better to leave them unsubtle to avoid confusion. If you introduce a grey area, you leave behind a considerable demographic who just want to see a black and white conflict. Absolutely in a meaningful way. There is the contrast between Naruto and Sasuke paths to power both physical and political. Naruto does things in a positive way by forming bonds and Sasuke does it in a negative way via betrayal and assassination. Danzo had obvious nationalistic views which are explored. Actually having to dig through an anime to find its themes is a strength in my opinion. It shows that the authors think the audience is smart enough to figure out the nuances. The downfall of Code Geass is that it promotes a flawed philosophy. At the end of all his crimes, Lelouch is depicted as a hero which he is not. His philosophy was too dark and flawed. Sure his intention was admirable, but I saw no indication that he had to achieve them in such an underhanded way. There is no sustainability to a world where the ends justify the means. The world would be torn apart by everyone trying to get what they want. People would just want to get to their own ends through any means as Lelouch did. Why was he so high and mighty that he got to decide what was best for the world? Sure, the world was really bad before his rebellion, but wouldn't more ethical people leading a rebellion to lead to a better world? With Death Note, the problem isn't just the lack of subtly in its themes. It their persistence in every second of every episode. It's like the author had to remind the audience what the themes were constantly. Despite being printed in Shonen Jump, it is obviously not for children. It is anime and manga that is revered for its complexity, but I feel that is underserved due to its lack of exploring any other themes. When you think about it, sticking to two themes over a run of fifty-some episodes makes it seem very simplistic. In short, what I'm trying to get at is that Code Geass and Death Note are not as "deep" or complex as everyone thinks and neither Lelouch or Light are characters to be admired. Lelouch is interesting I'll give you that. Much other anime and manga deserve to be taken more seriously when it comes to their themes, and I've given examples. The themes in Naruto were also beat over my head repeatedly and you literally just started a black and white conflict with no grey area and Danzo is basically the same as Lelouch being one side of the ends justifies the means argument. It also had a longer runtime to explore its themes. Also, the presentation is key. If a show that presents such uninteresting themes as Naruto in the way it does, people are unlikely to read into it. If you introduce an interesting question and explore it with a facade of intelligence then people will read into it. As i said, DN and CG are starting points to a conversation and work excellently as such. They're not meant to be any deeper look into the themes they present because they're both meant for entertainment. |
|
| In the end of the day, it doesnt matter whether its a genuine or a pseudo philosophical anime, it bowls down on how you interpret it within your line of vision and thought process, and your background/up-bringing of course. Like: This particular anime might seen as a genuine one to some while others perceive it as otherwise. |
CHC said: what i've always found interesting about logh is the scale to which it presents its world, even though it relies a bit too much on great man theory or shows really dubious population statistics it still presents an entire world to an extent that you can't really find in any other animeLegend of the Galactic Heroes I'm only about 40 episodes into this series but for what I've watched, the politics in it looks like it was directly transposed from a Politics 101 course or a 20th Century History 101 course. It's good for educating the general audience I guess. But for people who have read a few academic books on history and politics, the show provides very little intellectual stimulation. Artistically it also relies too much on expositional dialogue. |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Phantomnocomics said: Vorpality said: This isn't true. Fate/Zero has no routes because it wasn't a v/n. It's a set-in-stone prequel to all three routes of F/SN ?....the differences between the light novel and VN are the least issue lad a noob to the nasuverse?, no issue,even hardcore lore fans are confused by the nasuverse it is officially stated by nasu and in the guidebooks that they are set in the parallel world in ace magazine volume 10 Considering Fate/Zero and one of the Garden of Sinners movies are in my favorites, and Saber and Shiki are in my favorite characters, and I have just about every Fate spinoff in my completed, what do you think? Fate Zero is not an alternate universe for fuck's sake, it's a prequel to F/SN, no matter how F/SN plays out. It doesn't matter which route, Zero doesn't contradict any of them. |
|
Vorpality said: Phantomnocomics said: ?....the differences between the light novel and VN are the least issue lad a noob to the nasuverse?, no issue,even hardcore lore fans are confused by the nasuverse it is officially stated by nasu and in the guidebooks that they are set in the parallel world in ace magazine volume 10 Considering Fate/Zero and one of the Garden of Sinners movies are in my favorites, and Saber and Shiki are in my favorite characters, and I have just about every Fate spinoff in my completed, what do you think? Fate Zero is not an alternate universe for fuck's sake, it's a prequel to F/SN, no matter how F/SN plays out. It doesn't matter which route, Zero doesn't contradict any of them. so....are you gonna ignore the word of nasu < author? and did you even read what i wrote? the routes thing is THE least issue aside from the differences between zero and FSN version of zero it is the author statement whether you want to accept it or not is up to you, i would rather inform others of what is the official/canon statue of something rather than take my own opinion to others |
| I'm not going to dive too deeply into this (it's finals week), but there is, to me, a very stark difference between what the author conveys, and what the narrative conveys. This in itself is an absurd statement, since the author constructs the narrative, but in a postmodern sense, you could consider the narrative to have escaped the grasp of the author, or be unified with it. This is perhaps best illustrated with examples. Psycho Pass -- perhaps Urobuchi had in mind certain philosophies when he chose the quotes uttered by characters, but it is precisely that trite ending, the naive message of the narrative, that exposed it as inauthentic (you clearly have a different idea of Kant than I do). Behind Psycho Pass is a long history of destruction for the sake of creation villains, which was never as deep as it's supposed to be. Texhnolyze, on the other hand, was probably less explicit about its philosophic intent, although I suspect it says that the "drama" of the human condition is what holds us together -- perhaps best depicted by that villain half way through, who admitted that he could only find meaning in life by instigating conflict. In the end, when the surface was exposed as a sham, there was nothing else to live for. It's certainly more nihilistic than existential, since hope was fleeting. But its philosophical prowess lies in the consistency of its narrative, and not what any individual character or event, in isolation, represent. And that's what I think you're seeing, OP. Fate/Zero is another example of individual characters espousing philosophy, but doesn't make a lick of sense whatsoever given the context of the narrative. For example, for a character to espouse chivalry when the fate of the universe hangs on the line, is sort of like a person who brags about his philanthropy to the homeless. The context cheapened whatever he had to say. The most philosophical anime show -- they achieve some effect that the audience understand as soon as it concludes. They don't require contrived lines, overt symphonies of friendship and empathy, lined with choirs of religious references. The more a show mentions philosophical history, name drops, or scientific laws as something besides just background, but as an attempt of character or plot development, the more likely it is, in my opinion, to be pretentious and pseudo-philosophical. It's not necessarily so, but it's a good rule of thumb. Some shows, like Derided: Derrida (probably a reference to this book http://www.press.auckland.ac.nz/en/browse-books/all-books/books-2018/that-derrida-whom-i-derided-died.html), Blast of Tempest, and Rascal Does Not Dream of Bunny Girl Senpai can be dismissed offhand without watching a single episode, at least from a critical point of view. Besides some superficial elements, the aforementioned shows have nothing to do with the philosophy of Jacques Derrida, Shakespeare's plays, or quantum mechanics, respectively. |
katsucatsDec 8, 2018 12:47 AM
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Zangetsu10 said: That doesn't prove that utilitarianism is half-baked, it proves the shallowness of Naruto's analysis. It's as if you eat only the peel of an onion. The problem with Danzo is that his ideal was based in some emotional response to traumatic past, and not what's necessarily best for Konoha. Nor did all of his actions support his supposed ideals. Naruto refuted Danzo, not any general philosophy. And Naruto refuted Danzo with the convenience of plot armor, so it's not even any formal refutation as it is "I get magical powers handed to me conveniently that allows me to save the world."A difference between the "ends justify the means philosophy" present by some Naruto characters and the one the is presented in Code Geass is that the plot of Naruto proves that that philosophy is a flawed one which is hard to deny. For example, Danzo ruins so many lives by adhering to that philosophy. In doing so, that philosophy is presented to be half-baked. Zangetsu10 said: Code Geass never painted Lelouch as the hero -- he was an anti-hero. While a few of Lelouch's acquaintances might have seen him as "good" in the end, the vast majority of people in the world recognized him as a villain, and that's exactly what he wanted. Lelouch being a hero would have invalidated Lelouch.Code Geass presents that philosophy as the correct way of thinking when it is very clear that it is not. One of the most telling moments in that anime happens when Lelouch's Japanese allies learn that he is Zero and abandoned him for the most part. They are fed up with his manipulative ways. That is until, suddenly, Lelouch is seen as a hero again at the end. Everyone is then like: "oh, it's okay that he lied, manipulated, and killed thousands because his intentions were good." I don't that that is a realistic reaction. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Zangetsu10 said: Like Vulze said, Death Note is not particularly a philosophical anime, but a masterfully executed cat-and-mouse detective drama. Nor does it espouse utilitarianism. While Light was the protagonist, he was not a hero, nor an anti-hero. He was actually the villain. The narrative did not agree with Light's version of justice.Death Note and Code Geass are obviously the most popular pseudo-philosophical anime. The themes in those shows are so ham-fisted it's crazy. Ever second of every episode of Death Note pounds the themes of the corruption of power and capital punishment into your head. The same is also true for Code Geass with the "ends justify the means" philosophy which is also a ridiculous ethical point. No one can seriously think that way. In my opinion, a truly philosophical piece of fiction needs to express its themes in a much more subtle way. Ham-fisted themes makes an anime seem really immature. As for your aversion to utilitarianism, I can only presume it's grounded in religion, due to your prior citing of the Commandments. However, that's a very shallow view. No philosopher of ethics worth his salt could readily dismiss it as a theory. There are certainly criticisms of it, but it is not a settled matter. For example, when you said "thou shalt not kill" is a rule, regardless of its justification, I'm sure you hadn't meant that we should not have killed Hitler, or that self-defense is not a valid legal or moral defense, and that we should accept our own deaths before we cause others. Or that if there was a mass shooter about to gun down 500 children in a high school, and you had the opportunity to disarm him by beating him up, you should just sit tight because physically harming another man is against your libertarian sensibilities. Perhaps those 500 children would have been a necessary sacrifice for your morality. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| Hmm. wouldn't Derrida himself find it rather amusing to have his own theories being used to justify a medium he himself would likely be highly critical of? Baudrillard too. I mean, don't forget, post-modernist/post-structuralist theorists are rather explicit in their opposition to mainstream media...hypocrisy. Do not forget: post-modernist/post-structuralist theorists want to move away from any form of logocentricism. Kind of feels like a betrayal of their philosophy to apply it to those mediums/narratives that enshrine the modes of meaning making that they were deriding, critiquing or otherwise deconstructing... That being said, I can see how it is fun to jokingly apply philosophical ideas to anime - especially those that seem anxious to overtly present their philosophical credential. Then again, that is how you end with such bizzare statements as 'flawed' or 'pseudo' philosophy to describe what is essentially a rollercoaster ride (Tom Gunning - Cinema of Attractions). Then again, if people started with Hume - rather than Kant - then these discussiosn would make more sense... |
Drink for every time a famous philosopher is namedropped in an attempt to primarily present a school of thought through relation rather than try to explore the themes in detail enough for themselves. At the end of the day all I learned was that OP is high on philosophy and seems to prefer more straight-forward shit over works that require a greater degree of interpretation to adequately gather an understanding of said works. |
AndoCommandoDec 8, 2018 6:11 PM
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| This is fuckin incredible bait lmao |
Zangetsu10 said: That's not exactly right. Bentham's formulation of utilitarianism would say that it would be okay to remove the bully from the school if the pain dealt to him is offset by the aggregate pleasure caused by his removal. Since you would think (I presume) violently removing a child from society is disproportionate to his crime, then this would not be what utilitarianism prescribes. Removing a murderer from society -- if the pain dealt to the murderer is less than the pain he would have caused -- is what utilitarianism prescribes.katsucats said: I don't deny that utilitarianism is applicable in some instances like in the examples that you gave. I feel that it falls apart when you apply it broadly. Are there not such heinous acts that could bring about good things that they cannot be undertaken on an ethical basis? I will give you another example. Say there is a bully in a school, and this bully is just an all around terrible person. He beats people up, cheats, steals, and fails all his classes. No one can get through to him, and he'd be a waste of space in juvenile detention. A utilitarian mindset might say it is okay if that bully is removed from society by any means. He isn't contributing anything, and he is only making things worse. But, wouldn't the act of removing a child from society through violent means be an act too ugly for anyone to undertake? This also isn't a "kill baby Hitler" situation since his future is not clear.Like Vulze said, Death Note is not particularly a philosophical anime, but a masterfully executed cat-and-mouse detective drama. Nor does it espouse utilitarianism. While Light was the protagonist, he was not a hero, nor an anti-hero. He was actually the villain. The narrative did not agree with Light's version of justice. As for your aversion to utilitarianism, I can only presume it's grounded in religion, due to your prior citing of the Commandments. However, that's a very shallow view. No philosopher of ethics worth his salt could readily dismiss it as a theory. There are certainly criticisms of it, but it is not a settled matter. For example, when you said "thou shalt not kill" is a rule, regardless of its justification, I'm sure you hadn't meant that we should not have killed Hitler, or that self-defense is not a valid legal or moral defense, and that we should accept our own deaths before we cause others. Or that if there was a mass shooter about to gun down 500 children in a high school, and you had the opportunity to disarm him by beating him up, you should just sit tight because physically harming another man is against your libertarian sensibilities. Perhaps those 500 children would have been a necessary sacrifice for your morality. Zangetsu10 said: I would posit that religious laws, which are mostly adapted from traditional laws, served a very restricted purpose when they were created, which was to guide people toward making harmonious actions with respect to the community, in the easiest way possible to understand. After all, the common folk were not exactly educated back then. They didn't bring up a moral calculus (although the Greeks probably did) because it would have been too complex. They said "thou shalt not kill" because such a rule brought about the best outcome, in general. However, taking the rule as a means to itself, I would argue, is misguided. The rule supports an end -- to maintain societal order. So under John Stuart Mill's formulation of rule utilitarianism, that idea that people shouldn't murder qualifies. The question is why? Should you not murder because killing another human being is inherently bad, and for no other reason? Or is killing bad precisely because it disrupts communities, reduces cooperation, and harms other people overall? I would argue, controversially, that many people (not all) instituted deontology to support a utilitarian outcome.I wouldn't say that only I have an aversion to utilitarianism due to religion. That may be true, but I'd also say that the entire 2018 globalized world society has an aversion to it for the most part. Beyond the Judeo-Christian tradition, every religion I can think of judges actions by the act itself and not the consequence. Zangetsu10 said: I doubt it. Social animals have communal rules. They don't have religions.It has been theorized that the first laws came about because religion. Zangetsu10 said: At least in America, the Founding Fathers wrote the laws to avoid any particular religion (they came to America in the first place to avoid persecution). People back then were predominantly deists, not Christian. Considering how many modern countries were created in their present form from working class uprisings to overthrow complacent monarchs and the Catholic Church, I find this statement somewhat questionable. But whatever, the reality of it doesn't really have anything to do with utilitarianism.I am an advocate for the separation of Church (or whatever religious institution) and State, I don't think it is a stretch to say many modern laws are rooted in religious theory, not matter how secularized societies have become. Zangetsu10 said: I wonder if the world have dismissed it. If any of the 3 broad ethical theories can be easily dismissed, it would have to be virtue ethics. Both deontology and utilitarianism are regularly employed in business and engineering ethical analysis. In fact, there have been attempts to integrate both ideas, like Joshua Greene's Dual Process Model, which argues that utilitarianism and deontology target different areas of the brain.Topics like self-defense are the finer points of action and consequence. After all, if someone kills in self-defense there are usually still legal proceedings on the matter. In essence, what I am arguing is that utilitarianism cannot be applied in a broad way in the way it is presented in Code Geass. After all, Lelouch changes the entire world based on his utilitarian theories. I believe that is going too far. The examples you gave do work well, but they are still situational and not broad applications. I've taken philosophy classes and know that philosophers do not dismiss utilitarianism because it is a landmark theory, especially when it is compared and contrasted with other theories. However as I said before, the world as a whole seems to have dismissed it for the most part as a broad philosophy. Furthermore, I wonder if Lelouch is utilitarian at all, since at no point did he make the rational, calculated decision to balance pain and pleasure. If anything, he was driven by more emotional reasons. There were no shortage of religious imagery in the last arc. If anything, he was trying to play God. Zangetsu10 said: I think the writers were saying his was the best outcome with respect to the alternatives presented by King Charles and Schneizel, who were characterized as focusing on the past and eternal present. However, I disagree that they were saying that Lelouch's outcome made it "right" or "good". Code Geass, to me, was somewhat of a character epic. The drama was between Lelouch and the cast who knew him. The war was background. The revelation of his intentions in the end were shared by the dozen or so characters who knew him. Nobody else in the story thought he was a hero. He was hated, and that's what he wanted.Doesn't the fact the Lelouch created a peaceful word make it seem like the writers were saying that he was a hero and he did the right things? |
katsucatsDec 9, 2018 1:15 AM
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| Looks like OP abandonned his thread (^% |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
simonephone said: jal90 said: Well, the narrative of the series is about that. About the relationship of Lain with the internet, about the impact on and of social media, and about Lain's self and identity. Note that I'm not saying that it's good or enlightening at presenting its themes, but that they exist and not merely on a theoretical level, they define the character's path. Like how her struggle with identity affects her emotions and her position in the storyline, and how this doubt is raised in the narrative as a specific point of conflict. Also, @simonephone, I think you are far better than me at explaining this stuff, in fact I feel like my views on the show are quite simple and straightforward, and I lack the body of knowledge to go beyond that. Thanks, I think I'll toss in my two cents as well for the specific ways philosophy manifests in Lain Well I actually had to look up the definition of philosophy for this thread, turns out it is defined as "the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline" well ill exclude the last part since we're taking about anime but Lain is inherently a deconstruction of the way internet changes our relationship with reality and our own existences, as well as our relationship with knowledge to a lesser extent. So yeah it seems completely insane to me to deny that Lain is philosophical but I'll bite. Let's start with the nature of reality, and how that ties into the plot of Lain directly. I am barely scratching the surface of this show. Like I could really just go through the entire show and give you an episode by episode explanation for how the philosophical implications in Lain tie in very directly to the plot. Op you've got to realize you're taking an extremely unpopular stance in this and other shows, if you really want people to take what you're saying at all seriously you're gonna have to come up with some better counterarguments, as well as reasons why all of the things I have just mentioned fall under your definition of psuedo philosophy. Or, maybe just change the name of this thread to shows in the psychological genre I did and didnt enjoy, because that's all this really is. Also one last thing. Why do you say that Lain is not philosophical in your original post, and then dismissively say that a different philosopher expressed those ideas better anyways. Like why are you name dropping superior philosophers if the show is so unphilosphical? Doesn't really seem like it's helping your point. @CHC Ok, it's quite a long post defending Lain but please let me try to be concise in my reply. This is a direct expression of the philosophal idea that the way an individual behaves on the internet can not only be so completely different from their irl behavior that it can be difficult to even view them as the dsame individual but brings up the idea that perhaps the way you portray yourself when you won't have to face consequences can be a far more honest portrayal of yourself than you might express irl. It's not a philosophical idea. It's an idea or a fact about human psychology. The ethical consequence of that might be philosophical, but Lain didn't really dealt with that. the main conflict of the show at its core is about the protagonist questioning the nature of their own existence and being forced to find a new way to interpret herself. By the end of the show she believes what the omnipotent internet God man has been telling her, that she is not real and merely a projection of her internet self. So, she chooses to withdraw deeper into the internet, and her relationships with her family as well as her social life does completely. She does this because of a philosophical view she has about herself. What is the philosophical ground for her to believe that she is not real? You seem to have been playing on the ambiguity of the word "reality". When we say we're more real to ourselves when we are on internet, it usually means we feel more comfortable identifying with what we do when we're on internet. "Being more real" in this sense carries no specific metaphysical implication. Whereas when you said phrases like "the fundamental nature of reality", you're clearly using the word "reality" in its metaphysical sense. It seems to be a mystification of something rather mundane: a girl felt more comfortable with her persona on internet and thereby decided to withdraw herself from "reality" (face-to-face social interaction.) Also one last thing. Why do you say that Lain is not philosophical in your original post, and then dismissively say that a different philosopher expressed those ideas better anyways. Like why are you name dropping superior philosophers if the show is so unphilosphical? Doesn't really seem like it's helping your point. I said the message Lain expresses is far less radical than Baudrillard's, that doesn't imply the message of Lain is philosophical. The conclusion of Lain basically come down to "the internet world and the world outside it is one, and they have impact on each other," which is not philosophical, nor did it come to that conclusion in a philosophical way. It's just common sense. It is unphilosophical precisely because it never problematises the conceptual distinctions (virtual vs. real) it uses like Baudrillard did. It just went along with what common sense presumes and reached a common sense conclusion. Let me be clear: I never think Lain is a bad anime. Indeed I rated it as a 7 or 8 which mean it's better than 70~80% of all anime I've ever watched. I just don't agree it is philosophical. Not every anime has to be philosophical to be good. The show itself has also a tendency to mystify itself with pseudo-philosophy, just like it mystifies itself with pseudo-science, and I think it's pretty legitimate for it to throw in some pseudo-philosophy and pseudo-science as stylistic devices in generating the creepy, trippy atmosphere of the show. But it is quite another thing for fans/reviewers to mystify a show with pseudo-philosophy. |
 |
afg1930 said: another pseudo philosophical anime is bunny girl senpai. i wrote a long review yesterday night. click this is anime is a trash fanservice anime that pretends to be pseudo philosophical with its stupid dialogs about those puberty syndrom problems with that nonsense and random connection to quantumphysics (schrödingers cat for example). How many brain cells do u have to lose before thinking that bunny girl senpai is trying to be philosophical? |
Profile views make me feel loved |
| I thought it is obvious that series like Death Note and Code Geass that are supposed to appeal to teenagers cannot be too subtle and too philosophical. |
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
xenovibe said: > Places pretentious Urobuchi crap like Psycho-pass and Fate/Zero into the genuinely philosophical category (despite both of them coming off as baby's first foray into nihilism) while LotGH and GitS are both considered as "middlebrow". Top kek To be fair, LotGH and GitS are middlebrow to anyone and everyone with a good high school education. |
 You gave up your freedom of speech when you clicked Agree to the User Agreement This is not a public platform. My gaze is the measure of all things: I stopped considering "anime" a helpful tag Recommended Essays Exploring Actually Excellent World-Building |
More topics from this board
» The "Backstory" Problemsimonitro - 34 minutes ago |
5 |
by narikuu
»»
2 minutes ago |
|
» Anime characters that used to be older than you, now you're older than themComeInReiAsuka - 3 hours ago |
12 |
by ColourWheel
»»
12 minutes ago |
|
» ⌛ Best Girls of the Past Eras >Increased Limit ( 1 2 3 )Shizuna - Oct 10 |
126 |
by Noctblade
»»
20 minutes ago |
|
» Characters you want to become your siblingsm_alhafidz - 2 hours ago |
6 |
by Maou_heika
»»
33 minutes ago |
|
» Do you have a dedicated shrine to your favorite waifu/husbando ?tchitchouan - Oct 8 |
19 |
by Yumerei
»»
39 minutes ago |