| In many fictions with fights I've seen (especially in fantasy), there is always the big foe, the biffy guy, the huge monster, the giant no-one-can-imagine-able-to-defeat.. And he's always been atomized by the hero who is litteray looks like a shrimp compared to the behemoth.. I know It's for the famous "David vs Goliath" trope, makes the impossible possibles, epicness, revenge against bullies, etc..., but honestly, It begins to be boring and kinda annoying. Not the fact the "David" can defeat the Goliath, but the fact the David, who looks more like a teenage generation idol than a trained fighter, oudoes in strength the Goliath, crushes him, cuts his balls, rapes him, eats his flesh, consume his soul, mount his head on a wall, and does that with 13 more Goliaths (find the reference) with an exasperating angelic smile like to say "It's just another day of work.". Plus, with time, I feel sorry for the Goliath. Despite his enormous brute strength, he acts like an easy target. Slow, overconfindent and stuffs, most of time, he's here to be beaten the crap out and shows how much the shrimp, who beat his ass, is a BAMF (Bad Ass Mother Fucker). For instance, why in One Piece, ennemies are often bigger than the heroes? And why those last aren't bigger (permanently) with time? Of course It has exceptions like with Kratos in God of War or Guts in Berserk or, even I'm not a big fan of this game, Shadow of Colossus. When the David is a powerfull warrior, as biffy, ferocious and strong as the Goliath, I'm ok he can smash the Goliath or when the David gives everything he has to beat the Goliath and a single mistake leads him to the death... I know It will be boring if we "respect reality" and let the Goliath crushes the David like a bug but It has a way to make it impressive, badass? Like a big minotaur (usual huge fantasy target practice) defeating knights- adventurers with "super sayain" shining auras? |
| I think this like to TVtropes is really relevant. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MusclesAreMeaningless Especially the picture, just to illustrate the problem. The guy on the left is a random big adult (I don't think he even had a name), the guy on the right is a 10-years-old magical teacher protagonist. |
| killing small fries would be no worthy feat of the protagonist, so one option would be to give an elaborate explanation and background of why the bad guy is actually strong and near unbeatable, but the producers are too lazy and are like I KNOW LET JUST ENLARGE HIM 10x, and it worked out so now everyone does it |
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| And the sister trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MonstrosityEqualsWeakness Balong said: Yep; It's a good reason to stop watching shounenshit. Marduk is my Tekken main btw :^)but honestly, It begins to be boring and kinda annoying |
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| You always have Bahsahkah. Biggest sahvanto, strongest fucker (without counting Gilboy), 12 lives, great bro, has best loli, won the Grail War in Carnival Phantasm, fucked MC hard.... We love you, Bahsahkah!  |
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| Being bigger means being heavier and being slow in speed..! So, the muscles can't do shit against someone with some speed and actual skills |
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Z-Dante said: Being bigger means being heavier and being slow in speed..! So, the muscles can't do shit against someone with some speed and actual skills Except if the muscles catch, just one time, the speedy skill. The result is a bit...messy. I mean, muscles don't always mean dumb, right? |
| For a moment I thought this was a boobs thread |
Klad said: For a moment I thought this was a boobs thread But no oppai memes so it isn't.... [insert fanservice gif] |
Illyricus said: You always have Bahsahkah. Biggest sahvanto, strongest fucker (without counting Gilboy), 12 lives, great bro, has best loli, won the Grail War in Carnival Phantasm, fucked MC hard.... We love you, Bahsahkah! Indeed, our beloved Berser-car!  #30charaters |
My Queens  |
| wouldnt the hero liike like a real dick if he was pounding on ppl clearly much smaller and weaker than him. wouldnt that make him the evil villian then? |
| Totally didn't expect this based on the title... Yea but bigger are usually slower, so the small person usually has the advantage as they can maneuver around more. |
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| It would not be fun if the big scary antagonists stepped on the cute guy trying to save the world. It's an overused trope, but it's still a justified one. |
Waiting patiently for springtime to return! n_n Join the Social Justice Club now! Everyone dedicated to spreading feminism on MAL is welcome to join! Link to my interview! |
| And this is when I point everyone to the Ys series, which features Dogi the Wall-Crusher. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Holy fuck God of War was awesome, Kratos' lvl of cool is pretty much unreachable. About the trope, well its more interesting to see the big guy win once in a while :) |
 Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
CherryLover said: It would not be fun if the big scary antagonists stepped on the cute guy trying to save the world. It's an overused trope, but it's still a justified one. Justified trope, I don't really know. Guts beating the crap out of trolls (who are shorter than him) in Berserk doesn't look "unfunny" in my memory. But boring and predictable as hell, It is. But what happens if It will be the opposite? The big scary guy is the protagonist and the cute little thing the badguy? How can make it "cool"? Nexu said: Totally didn't expect this based on the title... Yea but bigger are usually slower, so the small person usually has the advantage as they can maneuver around more. I'm ok if the small person hit weak points of the big foe, takes risks by being crushed in the ennemy giant hands, but I'm not if the shrimp can overpowerd the Goliath by a single flashy attack. |
BalongNov 3, 2016 10:15 AM
| Maybe this is also to do/ became an even bigger thing because of videogames? At least for me, I prefer to play "small but super-agile" characters, it's just more fun to me when the character I control whizzes across the screen almost faster than my eyes can follow. -------------- But what happens if It will be the opposite? The big scary guy is the protagonist and the cute little thing the badguy? How can make it "cool"? Bud Spencer (with and without Trence Hill) took that role in many films, and to the day these films over here still have an incredibly huge amount of followers. |
BannoBunka_snorkNov 3, 2016 12:16 PM
| *darn, using my right hand is off-limits for a while. Typing with my left hand only is ... eww.* |
| Yeah its kinda annoying. The only time I actually feel fear when being presented with a giant ass monster or enemy is in Dark Souls/Bloodborne. In animu however whenever I see a big ass thing I usually roll my eyes. Its kind of a gag at this point imo. Berserker from F/SN is a good example of giant shit worth a damn. Berser-car is too. Still waiting for my Berser-car DLC in Forza. One Piece usually follows the troupe buuuut it has some exeception. Whitebeard,Blackbeard and Big Mom and her crew come to mind The entire manga called Toriko too. I think Hokuto no Ken is also a good example since everybody is already 8 feet tall and walking fridges but Raoh still manages to be considerately larger than Kenshiro. Main villain too for a giant chunk of the series |
| the Chousin are beings that are bigger than mutiverses an they arent weak though i gotta admit that seein a small guy beating a huge guy can be cool if overused can get boring though |
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| Because it makes the wimpy veiwers think that they can do shit too. |
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| Anime generally sucks at showing muscles. "Strong" characters are usually stupidly oversized while "skilled" fighers have no muscles at all for some reason. Look at real world example: Bruce Lee. Small but skilled. But damn, look at his body! That's how real "strong" muscles look - I don't know english names for it, but they have strenght to keep working over time and are able to move quickly when needed. You can't be skinny like usual anime protagonist if you train anything and at the same time you won't look like some damn bear no matter what you train if you don't have some special diet with it. |
BannoBunka_snork said: Maybe this is also to do/ became an even bigger thing because of videogames? At least for me, I prefer to play "small but super-agile" characters, it's just more fun to me when the character I control whizzes across the screen almost faster than my eyes can follow. Honestly, I like more the Mighty Glacier. Lack of speed and movement, maybe, but I love the huge amount of brute power they give. And often, because they're big guys in the japanese comic universe, they tend to have a way better design than the entire cast (Iron Tager of Blazblue.) Or this one too. |
| That's why I want more heavy class fights from K1 |
| In Berserk it's basically the opposite since the main character is a 190cm man with huge muscles and has the magic ability to weird a 400 pound sword (a real man with his build could easily bench press his sword but would not be able to use it as a weapon). Griffith shows him that strategy is just as important as brute strength, but most of his enemies aren't that good of fighters so he is easily able to slaughter them with his giant weapon. In a lot of shounen anime the villains are sort of like giant teddy bears with some weak magical abilities so it's not surprising that they can be easily defeated. With long running ones they need to keep making the antagonists stronger while the appearance of the protagonist will generally stay the same even if he's gotten a lot stronger so this could also be a reason. |
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zombie_pegasus said: In a lot of shounen anime the villains are sort of like giant teddy bears with some weak magical abilities so it's not surprising that they can be easily defeated. With long running ones they need to keep making the antagonists stronger while the appearance of the protagonist will generally stay the same even if he's gotten a lot stronger so this could also be a reason. Perhaps but there is no more surprise and we always get the same cheesy "You can do it!" message over and over... |
| just slightly reminder that asian people it self doesn't really like brute force but prefer martial arts technique... Chinese philosophy it self (which affected widely including japan) also promote this... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
zombie_pegasus said: lol bench pressing the sword would look pretty funnyIn Berserk it's basically the opposite since the main character is a 190cm man with huge muscles and has the magic ability to weird a 400 pound sword (a real man with his build could easily bench press his sword but would not be able to use it as a weapon). Griffith shows him that strategy is just as important as brute strength, but most of his enemies aren't that good of fighters so he is easily able to slaughter them with his giant weapon. In a lot of shounen anime the villains are sort of like giant teddy bears with some weak magical abilities so it's not surprising that they can be easily defeated. With long running ones they need to keep making the antagonists stronger while the appearance of the protagonist will generally stay the same even if he's gotten a lot stronger so this could also be a reason. |
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| One piece. most of the huge characters are weak. |
The world is cruel, ugly and pitiful. Let's watch anime and make it colorful |
Luuji222 said: and guess what? 3 out of 4 yankou have big body (big mom, shirohage, and kido... hack even kurohage have big body as well)One piece. most of the huge characters are weak. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: so you don't see I put "most" ? not all? ...........Luuji222 said: and guess what? 3 out of 4 yankou have big body (big mom, shirohage, and kido... hack even kurohage have big body as well)One piece. most of the huge characters are weak. |
The world is cruel, ugly and pitiful. Let's watch anime and make it colorful |
Kuma said: just slightly reminder that asian people it self doesn't really like brute force but prefer martial arts technique... Chinese philosophy it self (which affected widely including japan) also promote this... So this is possible to have both? To have a huge character who's good at martial arts? |
Illyricus said: You always have Bahsahkah. Biggest sahvanto, strongest fucker (without counting Gilboy), 12 lives, great bro, has best loli, won the Grail War in Carnival Phantasm, fucked MC hard.... We love you, Bahsahkah! Yeah... nah. In Heavens Feel the guy was cannon fodder just to show how strong the new empowered Shirou was. |
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Luuji222 said: and most of strong character have big body as well...Kuma said: so you don't see I put "most" ? not all? ...........and guess what? 3 out of 4 yankou have big body (big mom, shirohage, and kido... hack even kurohage have big body as well) Balong said: Kuma said: just slightly reminder that asian people it self doesn't really like brute force but prefer martial arts technique... Chinese philosophy it self (which affected widely including japan) also promote this... So this is possible to have both? To have a huge character who's good at martial arts? doesn't said it's impossible.. however, it simply the culture doesnt encourage it... i even currently reading gosu, which the mc was kinda fat... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Seeing the MC beating a big character is more satisfying than a little one and it is usually considered cool. For instance, why in One Piece, ennemies are often bigger than the heroes? I've read some years ago that this is similar to medieval perspective where it wasn't realistic not because they weren't able to do it but because of symbolism and perception. In one piece there are giants that are physically bigger and stronger than humans but there are also humans exaggeratedly big. Often the second case happens because it wants to represent power. All the big shots in One piece are dis-humanly big because they are above your average human in terms of strength/rank/power/influence.White beard wasn't that big in his flash back when saying he wanted a family but now that he is the most powerful yonko he is immense to represent his status. On the contrary luffy and his crew are the underdogs, they are seen as weak by the other characters but we as viewers know that it isn't true, we know their true value while the others underestimate them. And this is quite relatable to teenagers and young adults where there's this feeling of being powerless or underestimated by society. And why those last aren't bigger (permanently) with time? who are those last? |
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| Like serious sam said, it's not about your size, it's about how you use it. |
zal said: Seeing the MC beating a big character is more satisfying than a little one and it is usually considered cool. But what happens if the big character, the "beast" is the main hero, the bullied and the little one, the handsome living beauty canon is the badguy, the bully? zal said: who are those last? The protagonists. Except Franky, they should be "bigger" with time with the monstruous strengh they get during their journey, no? |
Lobinde said: it still no use if you can't even use it in the first place...Like serious sam said, it's not about your size, it's about how you use it. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Ingr1d said: Illyricus said: You always have Bahsahkah. Biggest sahvanto, strongest fucker (without counting Gilboy), 12 lives, great bro, has best loli, won the Grail War in Carnival Phantasm, fucked MC hard.... We love you, Bahsahkah! Yeah... nah. In Heavens Feel the guy was cannon fodder just to show how strong the new empowered Shirou was. |
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Klad said: For a moment I thought this was a boobs thread I furiously clicked this thread only to find out that it has nothing to do with o-pies. |
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Balong said: Do you mean Shrek? It happens a great movie. zal said: Seeing the MC beating a big character is more satisfying than a little one and it is usually considered cool. But what happens if the big character, the "beast" is the main hero, the bullied and the little one, the handsome living beauty canon is the badguy, the bully? I think this scenarios might be more common in western animation when they portray misunderstandings from society and themes like being and appearance (appears good but it's evil and vice versa). GTO comes to mind when the MC is the strong one and seen as a beast/inferior while the "normal" persons are weak but quite evil. It is a critique to society where people hide their bad nature behind pretty faces. Also specifically in GTO it is a critique to the scholar system that dis-humanize students and teachers. zal said: who are those last? The protagonists. Except Franky, they should be "bigger" with time with the monstruous strengh they get during their journey, no? |
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zal said: ]Do you mean Shrek? It happens a great movie. I think this scenarios might be more common in western animation when they portray misunderstandings from society and themes like being and appearance (appears good but it's evil and vice versa). GTO comes to mind when the MC is the strong one and seen as a beast/inferior while the "normal" persons are weak but quite evil. It is a critique to society where people hide their bad nature behind pretty faces. Also specifically in GTO it is a critique to the scholar system that dis-humanize students and teachers. I like very much Shrek and GTO but It's quite hard to find this kind of stories (like Shrek) in mangas/animes. Even if the protagonist is something not human, he still look like a human and sometime, It's quite awkward for me when the stories talk about racism, multiculture, and stuffs. (At least, It has Keyman for that). Most of time we get a character "different" of the group, he's at best a secondary character. Basically, I still wait for a manga/anime about a huge ferocious protagonist against full shonen good looking antagonists. Just for change. zal said: Then they would lose this relatability of the "perceived as weak". When you watch something like Hellsing Ultimate where the mc is the most powerful and evil creature on earth you don't really relate with him. It is easier to establish and emotional connection with characters that are relatable. One piece kinda wants the underestimated little guys beat the big and strong opponents to give cathartic moments. But we already see how much they're strong, how many big giant opponents they beat with ease since the beginning. What's the point to keep them like that until the end of the story? |
BalongNov 5, 2016 1:38 PM
| Nowadays, it's all about empowering the weak and helpless anyway. |
"I came here to sniff Madoka panties and kick witch ass and I am all out 'doka panties" - Homora Akemi |
Balong said: You've read GTO without reading shounen junai gumi beforehand? You've missed a lot of references. Saejima's monologues are hilarious because of the prequel and they might seem strange for whom didn't read shonan junai gumi.zal said: ]Do you mean Shrek? It happens a great movie. I think this scenarios might be more common in western animation when they portray misunderstandings from society and themes like being and appearance (appears good but it's evil and vice versa). GTO comes to mind when the MC is the strong one and seen as a beast/inferior while the "normal" persons are weak but quite evil. It is a critique to society where people hide their bad nature behind pretty faces. Also specifically in GTO it is a critique to the scholar system that dis-humanize students and teachers. I like very much Shrek and GTO but It's quite hard to find this kind of stories (like Shrek) in mangas/animes. Even if the protagonist is something not human, he still look like a human and sometime, It's quite awkward for me when the stories talk about racism, multiculture, and stuffs. (At least, It has Keyman for that). Most of time we get a character "different" of the group, he's at best a secondary character. Basically, I still wait for a manga/anime about a huge ferocious protagonist against full shonen good looking antagonists. Just for change. As ferocious protagonist I would recommend Devilman (manga because the anime is not that good), he transforms in a Demon when fighting and slowly becomes more aggressive. zal said: Then they would lose this relatability of the "perceived as weak". When you watch something like Hellsing Ultimate where the mc is the most powerful and evil creature on earth you don't really relate with him. It is easier to establish and emotional connection with characters that are relatable. One piece kinda wants the underestimated little guys beat the big and strong opponents to give cathartic moments. But we already see how much they're strong, how many big giant opponents they beat with ease since the beginning. What's the point to keep them like that until the end of the story? |
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Kuma said: just slightly reminder that asian people it self doesn't really like brute force but prefer martial arts technique... Chinese philosophy it self (which affected widely including japan) also promote this... Not really, but they are smaller indeed. Avoid using brute force to attack - often yes but in defense they basically like to use it. Shaolin monks like to use the bodies to hit hard objects, banging their heads to break stone for example And they train kids by beating them everyday and forbidding them to shed a tear. It's integrated in certain Chinese special force training as well. People would just smash glass bottles to their heads to show them they are well-trained like steel. |
| Some anti-examples: Lu Bu: Gaou Rikiya: Edward Newgate: And a fact in Berserk, the bigger they are, the stronger they are. |
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bottle said: Kuma said: just slightly reminder that asian people it self doesn't really like brute force but prefer martial arts technique... Chinese philosophy it self (which affected widely including japan) also promote this... Not really, but they are smaller indeed. Avoid using brute force to attack - often yes but in defense they basically like to use it. Shaolin monks like to use the bodies to hit hard objects, banging their heads to break stone for example And they train kids by beating them everyday and forbidding them to shed a tear. It's integrated in certain Chinese special force training as well. People would just smash glass bottles to their heads to show them they are well-trained like steel. and guess what they encourage? instead building big bulk body, it was inner power (ki)... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: bottle said: Not really, but they are smaller indeed. Avoid using brute force to attack - often yes but in defense they basically like to use it. Shaolin monks like to use the bodies to hit hard objects, banging their heads to break stone for example And they train kids by beating them everyday and forbidding them to shed a tear. It's integrated in certain Chinese special force training as well. People would just smash glass bottles to their heads to show them they are well-trained like steel. and guess what they encourage? instead building big bulk body, it was inner power (ki)... which is a myth to me, pretty much like much of the traditional herbal medicine They don't even talk about realistic organs, blood vessels and nerves They talk about yin yang from Taoism or creative scientology |
| Well it's a fantasy world so it all comes to, who has greater magical power so it doesn't matter if you are big, if you have less magical power than the little one, the bigger one loses. Unless they decided to fight only with physical strength then the bigger one wins effortlessly. |
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| Most of these worlds involve superpowers or magic of some sort, and in a lot of them natural physical strength is clearly segregated from said superpowers/magic even if the latter appears to affect physical strength. It's justified most of the time. One Piece plays with this a lot, but in the end bigger actually does tend to mean stronger. Three of the four recognized strongest pirates in the verse are giant compared to normal people (although none are part of the much larger giant race afaik). For a long time Luffy seemed to display the "dynamite packs a big punch in a small package" deal since his muscles have the properties of rubber, but recently even he gained a much more powerful Fourth Gear that also happens to make him even more massive than Whitebeard was. |
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