| Fairly self explanatory topic. There is obviously two sides to this topic either claiming; A: Enjoyment is subjective and since a review should try and be objective as possible it is not welcome. Or B: Enjoyment & intrigue are reasons to watch a show, and since reviews are technically at the end of the day, opinions, you should discuss aspects on what made the show enjoyable. If you care about my opinion on the matter, keep reading, if not just post a reply. I'm more on the "B" side of this topic. I believe that enjoyment should be a factor when reviewing because appreciation for a well written story doesn't always translate to being enjoyable, and enjoyment will add onto your "appreciation" for the series. For example, I recently finished watching Shinsekai Yori not too long ago. I really appreciated and loved it's rare setting and story, but it's presentation, lack of energy & dull characters made it hard for me to "enjoy" the entire thing as a whole, but I still "appreciated" it nonetheless, however it still made me rate the show lower. (That score being a 7). |
JkayWJan 19, 2016 12:58 AM
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| It's the factor because you're writing about how much you enjoyed your perspective of the events portrayed |
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| Not that I review but I think that a review should be personalised while still being "professional". Maybe doing something like personal enjoyment section for the last part of the review would be suitable. |
when ur about to have a refreshing sip of earl grey tea and someone says "traps are gay" |
| Like I said in that other topic that was about the exact same thing two weeks ago Yes, it can but it should not be the only factor to take into account when reviewing something |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
Comic_Sans said: Like I said in that other topic that was about the exact same thing two weeks ago Yes, it can but it should not be the only factor to take into account when reviewing something I was banned for a while so I couldn't see the thread you're talking about. Although I should have searched for that topic. Apologies. |
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JkayW said: It's okayComic_Sans said: Like I said in that other topic that was about the exact same thing two weeks ago Yes, it can but it should not be the only factor to take into account when reviewing something I was banned for a while so I couldn't see the thread you're talking about. Although I should have searched for that topic. Apologies. Just remember to use the search function the next time |
Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
| That's exactly how I felt about shinseki yori, we even gave it the same score. Yes, I agree with option B as well. |
| Your personal taste is going to come into play when reviewing, but it's how this is supported that separates good and bad reviews. Balance between objective observation and personal experience is key. People too often write entirely opinionated pieces without a leg to stand on under the guise of complete subjectivity, and they're always a bore to read unless they're completely out there. |
| A review is an opinion.How can an opinion be objective?That's a contradiction. Enjoyment should definitely be a factor,but it's the reviewer's enjoyment,it doesn't mean that the anime will be universally enjoyable. |
JkayW said: Fairly self explanatory topic. There is obviously two sides to this topic either claiming; A: Enjoyment is subjective and since a review should try and be objective as possible it is not welcome. Or B: Enjoyment & intrigue are reasons to watch a show, and since reviews are technically at the end of the day, opinions, you should discuss aspects on what made the show enjoyable. Didn't know these were the obvious sides. The first is wrong anyway. Enjoyment is the show's qualities clicking well with the viewer resulting in him being enjoyed. It's not mutually exclusive with critical evaluation a.k.a reviewing. Someone enjoys something because they thought it was good. Enjoyment doesn't come from thin air. There are aspects that led to the enjoyment so by default enjoyment is relevant when reviewing a show. |
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Razastarr said: A review is an opinion.How can an opinion be objective?That's a contradiction. Enjoyment should definitely be a factor,but it's the reviewer's enjoyment,it doesn't mean that the anime will be universally enjoyable. You are still able to see objective flaws in any form of media though. I did state as well "try and be objective as possible." You might need to read what I typed more carefully. |
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| It should be taken into account but it should not be the driving force of the review. The quality of a work is worthless if no one can enjoy it but just because something is enjoyable that doesn't make it high quality. The quality of the sound and animation in Glasslip was high but the quality of writing was very low. Because the writing gave off the "nothing happens" vibe without giving any characterization to make it enjoyable it has been deemed one of the worst anime of all time. Akira also has very high quality sound and animation and considering the length of the manga it was very rushed so the writing was naturally lacking. For the same reasons that Michael Bay movies are popular Akira has been dubbed one of the best anime of all time. It wouldn't be easy to convince someone that Glasslip is better than Akira even though they excel and lack in the same areas. A good review should be able to express the writer's subjective opinions and hopefully inform the reader about what their experience might be rather than just listing the facts. |
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JkayW said: Razastarr said: A review is an opinion.How can an opinion be objective?That's a contradiction. Enjoyment should definitely be a factor,but it's the reviewer's enjoyment,it doesn't mean that the anime will be universally enjoyable. You are still able to see objective flaws in any form of media though. I did state as well "try and be objective as possible." You might need to read what I typed more carefully. How?For example a reviewer may think that a show has bad writing,but another can find the writing good.Then,it's up to the viewer to decide for himself. There have been reviews rating the same thing with 2 or 10.This means that the anime (or any other form of media) in question is either utter garbage or a masterpiece.Who decides which reviewer is correct? Only facts are objective.And a fact is that an anime has animation,or that it has music.Whether it's good or bad is a matter of perspective. |
RazastarrJan 19, 2016 1:27 AM
| Seeing as anime is a medium for entertainment, withholding whether you were actually entertained and enjoyed it seems counter-intuitive. So long as you don't let your enjoyment or lack thereof begin to heavily bias your review and render it unfair then enjoyability should be part of the review. Not to mention that withholding enjoyment and trying to objectively review a comedy or slice of life series is gonna be kinda difficult. I personally don't find Nichijou funny at all (I've laughed like twice in 20 episodes) but that doesn't mean it's a bad show with terrible humour.The fact that it has tons of 9s and 10s shows that a lot of people find it funny. So if I were to write a review, it wouldn't really be right of me to say the humour was bad; it would be more accurate to say "I didn't enjoy the humour presented" and maybe give a brief explanation of the sort of humour it contained. |
MazJan 19, 2016 1:29 AM
 It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| Enjoying is what draws you into a show, so it's best to center the review around enjoyment because all other factors(e.g.story) merely contribute to the enjoyment(or may not). Reviewing is essentially looking back on your experience and how you enjoyed the anime, not some objective checklist of qualifications one must tick off or grading an exam paper... it's a review, not a test you have to grade |
| “Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth. But the world isn't perfect, and the law is incomplete..." -Alphonse Elric "Then and now, what I protect has never changed!" -Sakata Gintoki I'll take anything like The Pet Girl of Sakurasou. Anything as good as that. |
| As far as I know we're all human beings with emotions and chances are the audience you're writing for is too. You are not a space alien completely devoid of emotion. Even if you are, you shouldn't write your reviews under the assumption that your audience is. You've just got to learn that there's a difference between the enjoyment you feel watching a dumb comedy series (Or some godawful movie like The Room where the laughs are all unintentional) and a show where you got really genuinely invested in the story, characters and themes. And yes, if a show bored you to death you have every right to call it a piece of shit. Just don't try to make it out as if anyone who disagrees is wrong. |
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Razastarr said: JkayW said: You are still able to see objective flaws in any form of media though. I did state as well "try and be objective as possible." You might need to read what I typed more carefully. How?For example a reviewer may think that a show has bad writing,but another can find the writing good.Then,it's up to the viewer to decide for himself. There have been reviews rating the same thing with 2 or 10.This means that the anime (or any other form of media) in question is either utter garbage or a masterpiece.Who decides which reviewer is correct? Only facts are objective.And a fact is that an anime has animation,or that it has music.Whether it's good or bad is a matter of perspective. Bad writing can easily be distinguished from good writing. When you see characters do nothing for 20 episodes, or see a story having massive plot holes that make the narrative collapse in on itself, that is considered "bad writing". Whether or not someone deems this as bad writing is certainly their opinion but that does not mean that their opinion is not wrong. After all opinions are ideas and ideas can certainly be proven wrong. What is subjective however is your enjoyment of a series. Opinions will be different though and reviewers try and see what the show did bad and good, which CAN be technically proven through analysing. But it will, at the end of the day, be subjective, since people will not share the EXACT same thoughts that reviewer does and the viewing experience will obviously vary, person to person. ItsMaz said: Seeing as anime is a medium for entertainment, withholding whether you were actually entertained and enjoyed it seems counter-intuitive. So long as you don't let your enjoyment or lack thereof begin to heavily bias your review and render it unfair then enjoyability should be part of the review. Not to mention that withholding enjoyment and trying to objectively review a comedy or slice of life series is gonna be kinda difficult. I personally don't find Nichijou funny at all (I've laughed like twice in 20 episodes) but that doesn't mean it's a bad show with terrible humour.The fact that it has tons of 9s and 10s shows that a lot of people find it funny. So if I were to write a review, it wouldn't really be right of me to say the humour was bad; it would be more accurate to say "I didn't enjoy the humour presented" and maybe give a brief explanation of the sort of humour it contained. Never bothered analysing comedies because they're too subjective to analyse thoroughly. I either enjoy it or I don't. I can say why I enjoyed it, but comedy is too varied for me to give a 'good' opinion on it. |
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JkayW said: ItsMaz said: Seeing as anime is a medium for entertainment, withholding whether you were actually entertained and enjoyed it seems counter-intuitive. So long as you don't let your enjoyment or lack thereof begin to heavily bias your review and render it unfair then enjoyability should be part of the review. Not to mention that withholding enjoyment and trying to objectively review a comedy or slice of life series is gonna be kinda difficult. I personally don't find Nichijou funny at all (I've laughed like twice in 20 episodes) but that doesn't mean it's a bad show with terrible humour.The fact that it has tons of 9s and 10s shows that a lot of people find it funny. So if I were to write a review, it wouldn't really be right of me to say the humour was bad; it would be more accurate to say "I didn't enjoy the humour presented" and maybe give a brief explanation of the sort of humour it contained. Never bothered analysing comedies because they're too subjective to analyse thoroughly. I either enjoy it or I don't. I can say why I enjoyed it, but comedy is too varied for me to give a 'good' opinion on it. Exactly lol. Saying why you enjoyed something is quite important in a review, IMO (as well as why you might have found something boring and unenjoyable). Good and bad is often separated from enjoyable and unenjoyable. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
ItsMaz said: JkayW said: Never bothered analysing comedies because they're too subjective to analyse thoroughly. I either enjoy it or I don't. I can say why I enjoyed it, but comedy is too varied for me to give a 'good' opinion on it. Exactly lol. Saying why you enjoyed something is quite important in a review, IMO (as well as why you might have found something boring and unenjoyable). Good and bad is often separated from enjoyable and unenjoyable. I understand. But why are you saying "exactly"? I've agreed with you from the start. |
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| Only on MAL do people consider the idea that objectivity is possible with subjects. |
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| When I review a series, I seek to point out both flaws and strengths from it, as it should help readers decide whether to watch/read it or not. However, there may be times when no real flaws are present, yet the execution of it may not have been optimal. Yes, personal enjoyment is a factor when i review something. But personal enjoyment is mostly used when i rate a series. |
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JkayW said: ItsMaz said: Exactly lol. Saying why you enjoyed something is quite important in a review, IMO (as well as why you might have found something boring and unenjoyable). Good and bad is often separated from enjoyable and unenjoyable. I understand. But why are you saying "exactly"? I've agreed with you from the start. It was my agreement with your agreement I guess lol. You phrased what I was trying to say in a better way. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
ItsMaz said: JkayW said: I understand. But why are you saying "exactly"? I've agreed with you from the start. It was my agreement with your agreement I guess lol. You phrased what I was trying to say in a better way. Instead of just agreeing with each-other. I think we should just do the real thing and jack each-other off. Nohomo. |
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| Enjoyment is a huge factor for me, hence why I rate as high as I do when I enjoy something. |
╮ (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) ╭ |
| As someone who has a goal to make a living out of anime reviews(in Youtube), I plan to split my evaluation of an anime into two. One is the enjoyment factor(if I enjoyed it and I'll also take into consideration what people may like) and the other is the more objective evaluation that stems from Film Theory which I'm self studying right now. I think that film theory can be applied in critically evaluating shows, especially animated ones. |
| I think enjoyment is a good factor to add into reviews. Just telling me facts and a bunch of objective stuff isn't enough. It's kind of like communism. It sounds like a good idea but people who have actually experienced it firsthand always say "it's fucking shit" |
| Of course, but it's why I don't think a rating system is particularly great. An anime can have great visuals and soundtrack, but perhaps you thought it was boring and then still rate it low. Not exactly fair. Or the other way around, when an anime might have bad art but you still enjoyed it and rate it high. I prefer reviews that don't give out a score, but rather just go over the points they think were good, not good and why it was/wasn't enjoyable to watch. |
| It is, when you're evaluating it based on a personal standpoint. |
JkayW said: Razastarr said: How?For example a reviewer may think that a show has bad writing,but another can find the writing good.Then,it's up to the viewer to decide for himself. There have been reviews rating the same thing with 2 or 10.This means that the anime (or any other form of media) in question is either utter garbage or a masterpiece.Who decides which reviewer is correct? Only facts are objective.And a fact is that an anime has animation,or that it has music.Whether it's good or bad is a matter of perspective. Bad writing can easily be distinguished from good writing. When you see characters do nothing for 20 episodes, or see a story having massive plot holes that make the narrative collapse in on itself, that is considered "bad writing". Whether or not someone deems this as bad writing is certainly their opinion but that does not mean that their opinion is not wrong. After all opinions are ideas and ideas can certainly be proven wrong. What is subjective however is your enjoyment of a series. Opinions will be different though and reviewers try and see what the show did bad and good, which CAN be technically proven through analysing. But it will, at the end of the day, be subjective, since people will not share the EXACT same thoughts that reviewer does and the viewing experience will obviously vary, person to person. I agree to a certain extent,but ultimately it depends on the person (the reviewer and the audience) what will be recognised as "doing nothing" or what consitutes a plothole. I will use a personal example here.I find the Terminator movies terrible,because since the beginning of the series,there is a plothole involving the time travel used,that I find impossible to let it pass and it destroys the whole experience for me.A lot of people though do not share my opinion on this. Also,it goes without saying that reviewers will try to prove their points using arguments,but many times the focus between reviews will be different.Two random reviewers will not always recognise the same things as good or bad,or if they will,they'll do so to a different extent. |
| Definitely. Anime is entertainment: its entertainment value should be called to judgement. Part of my process in reviewing shows is approaching it in a way that hides my personal feelings towards the show/film at the beginning of the piece/video; giving the readers who might actually LIKE a show like this a chance to read into the meat and guts of the show, before I slowly analyse deeper and letting my personal perspectives seep into my writing. Example: I personally didn't enjoy Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry for reasons A, B and C (there's a lot more, I assure you, but that's besides the point), but if I review it, I will start with a more objective insight into what the show offers in entertainment, its characters' depth and personalities, the story's nature and how it fits into whatever genre it claims to be, all that good stuff. After all that, and a few technical insights into animation, cinematography, background art detail and music, I will start slipping in reasons and analysis on the problems of the show that I found, that both bothered me personally, AND what I believe should be a problem in general (characters lacking development, animation quality drops, fan service and whether they were needed in particular scenes, etc). Avoiding subjectivity is impossible, what's the point of trying, or pretend that you can, and instead sound like you don't enjoy the medium you are reviewing? |
NaChiKyoTsuki97Jan 19, 2016 4:17 AM
| Anime talk, music and analysis, plus random moments of inspirations and rants | https://atmafunomena.wordpress.com/ |
| I think a reviewer should stay honest to their own opinions. That doesn't mean they can say whatever they want. All their statements have to have a basis in the show. I don't really think there's absolute objectivity in any form of art, but there are some principles a good show usually follows. I guess a good review tells what the show did in terms of story, characters, visuals, music etc. without spoiling too much and what the reviewer thought about it. "What did the show try to do and how did it succeed?" |
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| Although enjoyment is the #1 factor when I rate something, reviewing is different IMO. Enjoyment should just be noted, but not determine anything. |
Seiya0890 said: But its still disgusting from my point of view, and from the word's point of view, therefore its disgusting. Wise words. |
| Objectively speaking, enjoyment should play 0 role when doing a critical review. |
| Enjoyment is THE biggest factor when reviewing media.. Reviews can't be called reviews if they aren't subjective, that would be more like a summary.. |
| Enjoyment definitely plays a role, I highly doubt reviewers are being 100% "objective" when they review something. |
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| It's not like enjoyment aint a factor for the other review categories (Story, Art, Sound, Character). How objective can you be with story and character anyway? |
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| When I rate an anime I only have one criteria; How do I feel looking back at it? So if I look back and think 'man, that was a thinker' then I'll rate it highly. If I enjoyed the fighting at the time but loom back and think 'ehh, I guess it was good at the time' then I rate it poorly. |
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| Naturally enjoyment is factored into reviewing, as all the different aspects (story, characters, animation/art style, music/voice acting) are ultimately factors that contribute to your overall enjoyment of a series. This doesn't mean you should rate on enjoyment alone; there are things that at a personal level could be very interesting for yourself, but for others not. What matters by the end of the day are your reasonings behind liking a series, and these should be backed by valid criticism, not just pure "fanboying" or ranting about a series without any justifications. I might also want to add that reviews are subjective: it is impossible to be objective as some stories may be be appealing or not to some, as it is dependent on the person's interests. After all, it is bizarre to rate something highly while you didn't even enjoy it - same viceversa. |
NervinJan 19, 2016 6:36 AM
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| OFC enjoyment is a big factor in rating an anime, it would be stupid to deny it. On the other hand, you can enjoy something and realize it's bad (think cheap slasher movies), and MAL doesn't ask you how you enjoyed your anime, it asks if it was a good one. If it was the former, you'd have "4 (bored me)" and not "4 (bad)". |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
| I include enjoyment as a factor in a review, but I very rarely let it impact the score. The other 4 factors (with Story and Characters as the top 2) are more important. E.g. I enjoyed watching Seraph of the End. I really did, but we all know that's not a good show objectively. |
| Demi Valentine Website: Nika 'n Asia Follow me on social media! Facebook | Instagram | Twitter |
| I think you should be able to know whether or not an anime is good even if you didn't enjoy it. Enjoyment is always going to be a factor, as there will always be biases, but you should try to reason with those biases and opinions to the best of your ability. |
| What Kabaneri Did Wrong: - Edgelord protagonist - Special snowflake girlfriend - Giving humans powers - Failing to create a unique/memorable setting What Kabaneri Did Right: ... |
| Can a review be completely objective and actually be something that people want to read? What do you write reviews for if not to share the world your pleasure/displeasure of a certain thing? You can google a show's sales/budget and other such objective things just fine. There doesn't need to be a review for that exclusively. |
| B for me. Enjoyment is one of the most important criteria. I cannot write anything completely objectively. |
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| Everything contributes to enjoyment. Characters, animation, pacing, themes, ideas, depth, comedy The purpose of all this is to make an enjoyable anime. Even a difficult anime can be enjoyable if it uses the difficulty to its advantage. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Enjoyment and "objective" quality are often connected. It doesn't often happen that you think a show is "objectively" good but did not enjoy it whatsoever. Anime is meant to entertain to an extent. Although, I guess you could be amused by a totally shitty show. |
| Considering I'm not a reviewer nor do I want to be, its the main factor. |
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