Do a lack of character deaths (in an appropriate setting to warrant them) end up undermining the entire experience?
| I apologize if this gets a bit wordy(I will spoiler it to make it more neat) or any grammatical/spelling issues I usually have So what i wonder about, is this a justified view? Do stories that involve life endangering events actually need to end the lives of important characters to sell through its storyline? |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
| That's a very good question. I probably, on the whole, agree with the point that there needs to be death of characters in appropriate shows to sell the premise. One example, if a bit underrated, is Himitsu Top Secret. The unexpected death of one of the main characters really made the story shine. Another good one is Bokurano. Others include |
| Yes. I find it ridiculous that no baddies ever die in One Piece. |
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Old_Raven said: Yes. I find it ridiculous that no baddies ever die in One Piece. It's because the author wants to use them later, which actually worked out very well. Though yes, the fact that none of the villains ever died pissed me off. And in the case of One Piece, it made the fights a lot less intense because you knew that no one was going to die. |
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| It depends but I don't think I've ever run into an anime like that. Since we're talking about TV shows, I'll mention that what does bother me in Criminal Minds is |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| I think that it depends on the show. Context and audience both shape how appropriate it is for death to occur, how graphically, how often and to whom. I think however it is generally best when death of main characters is reserved for important events, though it is absolutely refreshing when death is handed out to 'important' characters like candy. It's thrilling to actually fear for the characters lives rather than know that they'll end up out on the top. These tend to usually end up in mindscrew since they also tend to be graphic aiming for absolute emotional trauma. You definitely bring up a good discussion, though it's hard to balance the investment of creating a character people care about and justification of killing them off so nonchalantly. |
Cupquake said: thats a bit disappointing to hear that villains dont die, Old_Raven said: Yes. I find it ridiculous that no baddies ever die in One Piece. It's because the author wants to use them later, which actually worked out very well. Though yes, the fact that none of the villains ever died pissed me off. And in the case of One Piece, it made the fights a lot less intense because you knew that no one was going to die. one of the reason i think (I realize i dont shut up about this series but its a fitting example) the serious arcs in gintama work so well was the interest in whether the villains would live or die, in addition to for the most part humanizing them and making them relate-able, they do tend to die, but not always as a few do end up surviving. It adds a dynamic to the fight and the fact that the protagonist of this series are willing to kill makes the fights incredibly intense despite knowing that the heroes will win those fights. And if these deaths of these humanized villains were there the really depressing tragedy stories gintama's serious arcs are wouldn't have the same impact Its another case i think that shows that deaths are pretty necessary to telling a story. elitsu said: Well i do think one piece deserves a bit of a pass as deaths usually are saved for the 2nd halves to the climaxes of stories, since one piece should be around 55-60% done deaths could be popping up soon especially since 2 supposedly major characters on the good guy's side died shortly before the time skip(god i wish i hadn't got that spoiled)I think One Piece is a good example. There's many characters that should be dead but magically appear again as if nothing happened. A lot of people get pretty mad at this because no matter how badly wounded a character is, it's almost guaranteed that he/she'll survive. At least the mangaka gave a reason why he does that. Though there should be some villain deaths sprinkled in here and there for the course of the story. IntroverTurtle said: I can see over using deaths as being even more disconnecting from the storyline. But i rarely see things like this happen, though i do know of a few such as golgo 13 where the mc is way too perfect that every single episode feels the same because he always gets his targetIt depends but I don't think I've ever run into an anime like that. Since we're talking about TV shows, I'll mention that what does bother me in Criminal Minds is |
JizzyHitlerNov 24, 2013 11:04 AM
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
| It can get unrealistically absurd like in Naruto. They're in a war and yet the death of only one main character (two side) is unrealistic considering what they are up against. |
| "you think you're bad, don't cha?" Evangelion is "a commentary on human nature and Japanese culture, particularly otaku and hikikomori, couched in a metaphysical allegory within a Science Fiction background." |
TheProxy said: Well at least it has killed off some (admittedly small) characters other than the major character your referring to. Now that we know what we were reading wasnt actually the final battle i think the deaths are really gonna start rolling in. If they dont then i think it will start getting more absurdIt can get unrealistically absurd like in Naruto. They're in a war and yet the death of only one main character (two side) is unrealistic considering what they are up against. |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
JizzyHitler said: TheProxy said: Well at least it has killed off some (admittedly small) characters other than the major character your referring to. Now that we know what we were reading wasnt actually the final battle i think the deaths are really gonna start rolling in. If they dont then i think it will start getting more absurdIt can get unrealistically absurd like in Naruto. They're in a war and yet the death of only one main character (two side) is unrealistic considering what they are up against. Considering the villains just talk for most of the chapters while they have access to death bringing jutsus and juubis, I just cant take them seriously with the lack of deaths. It just doesn't feel that dangerous. |
| "you think you're bad, don't cha?" Evangelion is "a commentary on human nature and Japanese culture, particularly otaku and hikikomori, couched in a metaphysical allegory within a Science Fiction background." |
Candor said: I agree doing it just to be dark its more cheap than anythingI don't have a problem with a show lacking deaths, unless the "good" characters are saved by some plot-devices just because they can. I have a problem however with shows that kill some "good" characters pointlessly just for the sake of sounding "dark" and "mature". But sometimes having a character die without foreshadowing can actually be good when handled well, i think when it comes to deaths its how you handled both the death as well as what consequences the death has on the characters and storyline. I think one example i really enjoy of a show killing off a very major character seemingly out of no where is from the show kekaishi when little past the midways point The death both works for completely changing the tone of the series, showed the villain was actually a threat, developed the characters, and led to a pretty exciting finale. The same can be said about you know who from gurren laggan or from both FMA's |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
CeeTwo said: jpem said: Depends, while I wish some more side characters died in OP things like Attack on Titan are just as bad if not worse in the fact that too many characters die. A balance is preferred. I think AoT is one of those that have perfect balance, you don't see Reiner, Jean, or even the samller characters dying randomly, stupidly, but it still happens, keeping the illusion of anyone can die! The bad one with so many deaths that you no longer even care because you know everyone WILL indeed die, is probably elfen lied or some other gory anime that try to be dark :P Again its cause shingeki hasn't reached its conclusion area yet, since its at 12 of its supposed 20 volumes deaths of major characters should start happening soon, and i heard chapter 50 killed off someone though i dont know who |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
| This is one of my biggest pet peeves in anime actually. I almost always get annoyed when I show cannot kill off any important character, villains and particularly baddies. It really hurts the suspense factor. If I know someone has no chance of dying then I really can't emotionally get behind them. Anime that prove that any character can die at any time keep me on my feet more than the other, which was actually a huge positive of the flawed Gantz anime to me, for example. Just my opinion on this. |
| Yes. This is a common trait in many action-oriented anime that I dislike. The happy delusion that there can be wars and what not and still every "important" character emerges unscathed bothers me. |
| yes, its particularly annoying when we get an episode dedicated to a character dying an then said character shows up at the end of the arc to save the rest or appears "heavily" wounded an his wounds will heal by the time the next arc starts |
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silversaint said: bleach in a nutshellyes, its particularly annoying when we get an episode dedicated to a character dying an then said character shows up at the end of the arc to save the rest or appears "heavily" wounded an his wounds will heal by the time the next arc starts |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
Cupquake said: Old_Raven said: Yes. I find it ridiculous that no baddies ever die in One Piece. It's because the author wants to use them later, which actually worked out very well. Though yes, the fact that none of the villains ever died pissed me off. And in the case of One Piece, it made the fights a lot less intense because you knew that no one was going to die. Ya, One Piece is easily the first offender when it comes to no one dieing. Pell toke a nuke and still lived XD |
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JizzyHitler said: silversaint said: bleach in a nutshellyes, its particularly annoying when we get an episode dedicated to a character dying an then said character shows up at the end of the arc to save the rest or appears "heavily" wounded an his wounds will heal by the time the next arc starts i was describing Fairy Tail but i guess Bleach do this as well |
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| Yes. So much yes. Really annoys me that you can always take outcomes for granted. Hell that's probably the number one selling point of Attack on Titan; it's not the beautiful world, the animations, the titans themselves or anything like that, it's that characters actually die left and right, there's no bullshitting around the bush. |
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| Boy... is this thread full of spoilers or what? Going back to the topic, I think it depends a lot on the genre, episode length and audience. Killing other characters might be interesting but at the same time it's a very cheap way of quickly changing the plot. Another problem is that many are just straight forward and you know from the start that the bad guy will die and the good side wins. A good way to avoid these situations is to make the story and characters grey, instead of black and white. Throw in a little moral ambiguity and a WTF ending and all is solved. |
If you are a fan of (or simply interested in) Japanese films then please join the Cinema of Japan club! Thank you (: |
| A series, given that it is in a story where it is supported, needs death in order to drive home a sense of danger. Death alone however does not make a series good, see The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, and etc. |
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Shrabster said: A series, given that it is in a story where it is supported, needs death in order to drive home a sense of danger. Death alone however does not make a series good, see The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, and etc. Death made The Walking Dead better. |
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| If it's necessary and it makes sense and plot armor doesn't protect the characters |
an egomaniac and a fool |
Shrabster said: A series, given that it is in a story where it is supported, needs death in order to drive home a sense of danger. Death alone however does not make a series good, see The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, and etc. A good thriller or action show can give a sense of danger without killing anyone. |
If you are a fan of (or simply interested in) Japanese films then please join the Cinema of Japan club! Thank you (: |
bloodlover said: no it is not, only spoiler is from a really old episode of one piece from over a decade ago, alll other spoilers are appropriately under spoiler tags or left vagueBoy... is this thread full of spoilers or what? . Fierce_Deity22 said: yah, you could see these unlikable pieces of shit dieShrabster said: A series, given that it is in a story where it is supported, needs death in order to drive home a sense of danger. Death alone however does not make a series good, see The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, and etc. Death made The Walking Dead better. on the flip side with the video game the walking dead, the fact that anyone could die regardless of age sex importance or anything made it a extremely emotionally powerful story since the character actually acted like normal human beings |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
| It's not necessary unless the story calls for it. When the story calls for it, the character should die. When the story does not call for it, the character should not die. There is no hard and fast rule. HaXXspetten said: Hell that's probably the number one selling point of Attack on Titan... it's that characters actually die left and right, there's no bullshitting around the bush. Meaningless characters that are set up to die and the audience has no attachment to. |
| Let's go bowling. |
StopDropAndBowl said: It's not necessary unless the story calls for it. When the story calls for it, the character should die. When the story does not call for it, the character should not die. There is no hard and fast rule. Agreed with this. I wouldn't say it's about whether or not the setting warrants character deaths or not, but rather if having a character die is suited for the tone and purpose of the story. I'd say Fairy Tail is an example of the kind of anime that does not need character deaths. The way friendship/nakama is constantly pushed as the central theme of the show is part of Fairy Tail's identity. I think if one or more characters from the guild had died during a plot arc, it wouldn't feel like the show was being true to itself. |
StopDropAndBowl said: Then what justifies the story calling for a character deathIt's not necessary unless the story calls for it. When the story calls for it, the character should die. When the story does not call for it, the character should not die. There is no hard and fast rule. By all accounts then that means action shows in general call for character deaths since there is life endangering moments which means someone needs to die in order to sell through its a life endangering situation, which means it does follow a hard and fast rule |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
JizzyHitler said: Then what justifies the story calling for a character death By all accounts then that means action shows in general call for character deaths since there is life endangering moments which means someone needs to die in order to sell through its a life endangering situation, which means it does follow a hard and fast rule I disagree, you can sell it as a life endangering situation using a myriad of techniques, only one of which is character death. Otherwise, every single life-endangering situation would always require an accompanying character death. But that wouldn't work, and is kind of unrealistic anyway, considering the fact that there are millions of life-endangering situations every day that result in no deaths. Someone dying in EVERY life-endangering situation is just as realistic as no one ever dying in ANY life-endangering situation. I would say that the situations that can call for character death are: -Establishment of darker/dangerous tone -Establishment of tragedy/adversity -Increase of tension -Release of tension -Moral lesson(s) -Foreshadowing of later death/event -Fulfillment of prophecy/foreshadowing -Establishment of rebirth scenario (ex: Character dies to be reborn) But then, all of these can also be achieved using other methods. The hard and fast rule would be to include character deaths whenever they are necessary for the fullest completion of the story. edit: what is especially interesting is that character deaths are not always the "darkest" or most "dangerous" or even "tragic" events that can occur. In some ways, a character death can be seen as a cop-out of it's own. How often do you see main/important side characters dying? Pretty often, right? Okay, how often do you see main/important side characters becoming horrifically maimed, beyond all repair? How often do you see them receiving such serious brain damage that they essentially become mentally retarded? Most often they die "pure". It is rare indeed that they are destroyed in some other way. |
StopDropAndBowlNov 24, 2013 2:57 PM
| Let's go bowling. |
StopDropAndBowl said: JizzyHitler said: Then what justifies the story calling for a character death By all accounts then that means action shows in general call for character deaths since there is life endangering moments which means someone needs to die in order to sell through its a life endangering situation, which means it does follow a hard and fast rule I disagree, you can sell it as a life endangering situation using a myriad of techniques, only one of which is character death. Otherwise, every single life-endangering situation would always require an accompanying character death. But that wouldn't work, and is kind of unrealistic anyway, considering the fact that there are millions of life-endangering situations every day that result in no deaths. Someone dying in EVERY life-endangering situation is just as realistic as no one ever dying in ANY life-endangering situation. Well we are referring to story telling not real life, specifically things involving legit life endangering events such as 1 on 1 fights using weapons and powers or uncovering giant conspiracies. StopDropAndBowl said: I would say that the situations that can call for character death are: -Establishment of darker/dangerous tone again thats just aboout every action show or thriller out there, outside of something like yawara wheres it judo, those are exactly what this thread is referring to. StopDropAndBowl said: That'd work, but not always, its downright absurd that in the case of life endangering events that characters would only get wounded than killed, and if they are in the tone of the story where such horrible torture will be implemented on them then the same tone is deserving of deathsOkay, how often do you see main/important side characters becoming horrifically maimed, beyond all repair? |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
Tarextherex said: urabochi doesnt even kill that many people off, especially when you look at shows like madoka or psycho passThat's one of the details that make shounen bad when they go for too long, but it's not like anime with tons of deaths are any better *cough*urobutchi*cough* The shounen king of offing characters is this immortal mofo http://myanimelist.net/people/2619/Hirohiko_Araki |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
j0x said: star driver is a fun as all hell show, but i never found myself giving a legit shit about any of the fights other than a purely entertainment fueled level due to the excellent fight choreography and even more excellent music. I think the fact that there was seemingly no danger to what they were doing that made the fights downright impossible to take seriously.Star Driver has no deaths even on the enemy side but i still enjoyed that show, same is true for Accel World it has no character deaths but it has emotional attacks though |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
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