"boring" is a fully subjective criticism, and I'm tired of pretending it's not

Stygian_Prisoner said:
at least not enough to feel the need to open a whole discussion about it.

Apolygon2 said:



a fact is an agreed upon concepts.

if enough people believe that high amount of fluid frames that create a smooth animation is a good thing. then a scene that has that, has near objectively good animation.


again, there will always be some opinion. you are just lessening it.

do you not see how in my example one is MORE objective.

they are still opinionated takes by all means. getting more objective doesn't change that.

Apolygon2 said:
of course, If there is a reason for why the thought it was boring, those reasons are completely valid takes.

I'm just saying "it's boring" on it's own. is just as valid as "I don't like it".

OmegaOtaku said:
Yes, boring is subjective. So is the opposite and everything else. People say Lain and Steins;Gate are boring and that's fine, it's an opinion they're allowed to have even if you don't agree with it.
Like I personally think Lain is boring all the way through and hard to get in to, whereas Steins;Gate is only slow to begin with but is a great watch when it does pick up. There's nothing wrong with slow-burners, it all just comes down to how tolerant you are if you find them boring.

Apolygon2 said:


here's the problem though.

you're right, it may be from a problem with the show....

but it can also be from that show not being the person's cup of tea in some way, despite not having anything wrong with it.


which is why I agree that some things that can lead to boredom like filler are valid complaints, but the boringness itself isn't.

biphasique said:


A fact is something that is proved to be true.

The amount of people that agree upon something does not make it a fact. A certain amount of people may believe red is blue, or 2 + 2 = 17, or that Socrates was a dinosaur, but that does not make it fact, let alone "more" objective. What if this agreement, following your definition of objectivity, was purely based on emotion and opinion? Would that "fact" still be "near objective"?

Objective means mind independent. No matter how many minds you gather to agree upon something, that agreement will always be predicated upon their minds and sense experience (i.e. not objective).

I am very interested as to where you are pulling these definitions from.

Nirinbo said:

Just like others in this thread are saying, it all boils down to subjectivity vs objectivity vs intersubjectivity.

there's something wrong = I don't like it and others (possibly experts) agree
not my cup of tea = I don't like it but others (possibly experts) do

raisin-kun said:


But your original post is fully saying that sort of criticism is subjective and therefore not valid? I think there's always a valid reason for such and it's not reasonable for someone to have to explain their life story/cultural background/media history etc. to demonstrate why they find something boring. It's always the fault of the product (in this case anime) when it does not appeal to an audience member. There's a reason why most rating systems, including MAL's, has an "enjoyment" aspect. Because it's actually pretty important for retention and interest which is indeed a part of overall quality.

oyabuntaro said:
"boring" is just as much of a subjective statement as "good" or "bad" are

Apolygon2 said:


idk man, ex arm being bad show seems pretty objective to me

oyabuntaro said:

being unable to understand why someone would have a different point of view than you is insanely narcissistic

Apolygon2 said:


you wouldn't say that if you actually knew what ex arm was.

saying ex arm is an objectively bad show.

is like saying an actual piece of shit is an objectively bad food.





keep in mind this is the trailer, so they are showing the best parts

oyabuntaro said:

i know what the show is. this is still narcissistic behavior.

MizunoWaveRider said:
"Poor pacing" is just a pretentious way of saying it's boring. If you're entertained then you won't complain about the pacing.

Apolygon2 said:


well...

poor pacing results in shows being boring.

but shows being boring aren't always because of poor pacing.

pacing is just one of many reasons for why someone might find something boring.

+ plus, bad pacing can be too fast too

Apolygon2 said:


If calling Ex-arm objectively bad makes me narcissistic, then I guess I am narcissistic.

but I will bet you that if we went with this rule most people would be considered narcissists.

KryzakamiHrybami said:


Claiming that your opinion is objective is what makes you narcissistic. Whatever is your opinion, you cannot claim that your opinions isn't one.

You might want to learn the definition of subjective and objective before creating your next thread.

Apolygon2 said:


well...

poor pacing results in shows being boring.

but shows being boring aren't always because of poor pacing.

pacing is just one of many reasons for why someone might find something boring.

+ plus, bad pacing can be too fast too

Apolygon2 said:


I know that.

But to me that is the same as saying shit, is not a good tasting food.

is that objective? well, technically not, but most people would say it is

JaniSIr said:
There really isn't such a thing as poor pacing.
I have given both the slowest and the fastest paced anime I've seen a 9...

A show can be uninteresting, where regardless of what's on screen it's boring, or not provide enough information for the plot to make sense, but neither of those are actually related to the pacing.

Roevhaal said:
OP lost me when they called the slow pacing of Lain useless in their second post of the thread, good job.

KryzakamiHrybami said:


Most people would not say this because objectivity has nothing to do with this. Objective opinion is an oxymoron.

Apolygon2 said:



you completely missed my point.


if enough people agree that money is worth something.

then money being worth that thing is a fact.


so then having lots of money being a good thing, would be basically a fact.

just like that, we have an agreed upon concept of what good animation is. and we can all agree that ex arm is not good animation. since based on the rules that have been setup, ex arm is objectively bad looking.




but nevermind all that, All you need is my first example.

every complaint of any show is subjective, but you can make it less subjective.

I already told you how with an example, and you're just dancing around the other stuff I have said. if you want to continue this, address my main point, not the random details.

Apolygon2 said:


it's been a while since I watched it. but I remember it having like 5-10 seconds of silence after every line of dialogue. which is just too much.

some quietness is good for atmosphere, but lain pushes it to a 1000, and I remember it being a lot worse for it.

NotAnApartment said:

Not really because a show can be well paced and still boring, bad contents (story, characters etc) makes the most well paced story feel boring

Poor pacing technically also accounts for the reverse, a too fast-paced story, which still might ruin other parts and make it boring indirectly but that's more of a biproduct and it mainly makes it feel all over the place and hard to keep up with and become invested in along with leaving little room for development

If it's good i won't complain about how bad it is, correct

Apolygon2 said:


I know, you seem to not get it.

I know that this by definition is not an objective fact. It's just so agreeable to such an extreme degree that I feel confident saying it as fact, even though it technically isn't.

MizunoWaveRider said:

Poor pacing just means it either goes too fast or too slow, and the latter means boredom, aka it's subjective. That's why I'm saying it's just a pretentious way of saying "I'm bored". People claim it's more objective when it's not. If you're bored it's poor pacing, if you're entertained it's good pacing.

Apolygon2 said:


you just ignored what I said and repeated yourself.

you can feel bored because the story is predictable.

you can feel bored because the characters are uninteresting.

you can feel bored because the story hasn't hooked you.

you can feel bored because you don't like the genre.


there are infinite reasons, for why and how someone can be bored. pacing is just one of them.


bad slow pacing, is indeed one of many things that can lead to boredom, but it's not the only thing.

Roevhaal said:
Okay so this thread is just so you can rant about people calling stuff you like boring whie being supportive of calling stuff you don't like boring. I for one really liked the pacing of Lain and it most definitly served a purpose.

MizunoWaveRider said:

When did I say boredom is always a result of poor pacing?
I said "poor pacing" criticism is always a result of boredom and thus just as subjective.

Apolygon2 said:


no because not all boredom comes from something like poor pacing.

sometimes boredom comes from something like you not like the genre.

KryzakamiHrybami said:


That just makes you look narcissistic and that's not a good thing.

epidemia78 said:
Ok, sure. But boring shows aren't always "slow burners". It's not always the case that things are called boring only because ADD kids can't handle five minutes without explosions and fistfights. Sometimes the show is literally boring on a structural level. The story is aimless, it doesn't know when to end or is chocked full of pointless filler.

ateks said:
For me boringness doesn't come from slow pacing but from the same elements being used over and over and over again. I don't want to see the hundredth Bleach copy, it's boring as fuck and that's objectively boring in my opinion.

MizunoWaveRider said:

Did you even read what I wrote? I literally said that I did NOT say that all boredom comes from pacing, and now you say "not all boredom comes from poor pacing".

I said the reverse, that all "poor pacing" criticism comes from boredom. If people are entertained, then they will never say the pacing is poor, even if it's on the slower or faster side.

Droebie said:
I think the problem here is your sensitivity to it rather than it actually being a problem. If someone feels a show is boring they don't owe more than that when they say it, they could expand on it if you were to ask. That said if that's how they feel it's not "wrong". You might have more of a case if we're talking actual reviewers however even then it's not for school, it doesn't need to follow a formula of just enough objectiveness. Some reviewers talk about a show very subjectively and based on their feelings and some break down the show into it's artistic elements and direction. Both ways and all in between are valid.

I get that maybe this is a PSA and you're just wanting more people to expand on why things are boring but going by my many years in the community you're better off to just accept how things are and make friends with those who are more like minded. I guess it can't hurt to ask people to give their criticisms more thought but the average person is still going to call things boring when they're bored.

JaniSIr said:

You didn't particularly disagree with the sentiment that either nothing interesting is happening, or the plot isn't explained well enough, and how fast the events actually happen (=pacing) is irrelevant.

katsucats said:
ALL criticism is subjective. I don't know why anime fans have such a problem with this concept. Your problem is that it doesn't by itself explain why it's boring, but explaining it doesn't make it not subjective. If you think there's an objective scientifically measurable metric for "poor pacing", then you're free to propose what that might be and possibly win a Nobel Prize for proving the existence of idealism. But until then, you just haven't really thought this through.