Hoshiai no Sora Episode 8 Discussion

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Apr 2012

18808

Jin_uzuki said:

RobertBobert said:

It matters because if MC are straight, any such character does not have any influence on the romantic relationship of the protagonist. Tomoe was a great character and did a great job with her role, but all her importance for the plot did not turn CCS into a yuri title, since Sakura was streight. At the same time, despite the fact that Utena had the same connection of sexuality with gender, MC was bisexual and it would be a complete lie to call this show “straight”.

Still confused on what you trying to say and how it relates to what we just discussed sorry. Especially because Yuuta is straight and Toma is... nothing so far?

Revolutionary does not mean "first of its kind".

Honestly, if you think Yuuta was revolutionary after this talk I don't know what to tell you.He was nice but not anything I haven't see before. I was expecting the usual one side love plot that literally goes nowhere or the usual "he confesses, he gets rejected and then moves on".

Is this such a big deal? I can understand why the millennials are so hyped about this, but why does the anonymus care so much about this episode? The trans community is also real LGBTQ thing as gay people, and if the show is ready to talk openly about gays, why should anyone be surprised at the appearance of trans topics in it?

You are smart enough to understand why lesbians are more accepted than gays in manga/anime (and uh, real life), you should also understand why something even less understood and more "weird" like trans people is even less accepted.

More so the show didn't really talk about this openly before, it had a gay side character that didn't do anything explicit on screen. The moment the topic is brought in the open is when people get uncomfortable, just look how according to some people the show suddenly became "political".

I want to say that if the work does not imply at least the “possibility” of a serious queer relationship, then we cannot say that the existence of these characters “prevents” the work from being straight romance. You can remember some reverse harem about fujoshi (forgot its name), where MC was at least sexually attracted to her bisexual tomboy best friend and her yuri arc really turned manga and anime into a queer (bisexual) romance, for example.

I consider she revolutionary for a sports show that at least formally tried to appeal to a male audience. Yes, his image has tropes that have clearly been added to make him attractive, but he is not yet a fetish character.

Even though the show is far from the fantasies of ANN's snowflakes, it was political from the very beginning. Dysfunctional relationships in the family, single mother, child abuse, teenage estrangement, gays and homophobia, etc. LGBTQ themes in such a show are as obvious as yuri scenes in ecchi harem.

I can understand people who complained about the ridiculous pandering to the base on Tuesday and Carol, but in the context of this show ... it's kind of naive.

Nov 30, 2019 6:04 PM

#105

Bibimbapski

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Jun 2013

3513

Yu being LGBTQIA+ doesn't come as a surprise, we already knew that. As much as I love Japanese anime and manga addressing these issues and creating a platform for LGBTQIA+, their conversation felt a little out of place and out of character for Maki. Perhaps, I'm being an idiot and judging Maki as a character but I felt like he wouldn't be as open-minded to LGBTQIA+ because he is Japanese, he's a teenager and East Asian families aren't that open to anyone who isn't straight. I think though, it does make sense in a way, he comes from an abusive home, with his sperm donor coming over to beat the fuck outta him and steal their money. Being a victim of that, he probably was able to understand the struggles of other people such as Shou.

A large majority of Asian parents aren't really accepting towards LGBTQIA+ people, even their own kids. I have lived in South Korea, Japan, Thailand and Philippines. Thailand and Philippines has the most LGBTQIA+ people, like you will see at least ONE person who is gay in any classroom, office, family, etc and in Thailand, they're everywhere but still oppressed. South Korea and Japan love to pretend they don't exist except in fiction.

Still not liking Mitsue tbh, I'm not sure if they want to portray her as someone who is oppressed and is being a little asshole to everyone because she's putting up a strong front but this bitch ain't tsundere. She's just a jerk to everyone. It's really hard to like her but I might change my opinion at the end of this series.

臭い-

Nov 30, 2019 7:01 PM

#106

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Apr 2012

18808

@Bibimbapski You don’t like Maki’s too “adult” monologue, but also don’t like Mitsue’s teenage cynicism, which is shown quite realistically? I agree that she is not the most charismatic character, but it always seemed to me that her low self-esteem and passive aggressiveness as a way to hide it were pretty well depicted.

Nov 30, 2019 7:33 PM

#107

kuroneko99

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Nov 2010

1141

If you still have some interest in this series, it may be worth reading this article.
In this interview of the director / script writer, he said:
"I wanted to make a series that is a modern Japanese version of film "Stand by me". The theme is "parents vs children". Tennis club activity was added as an entertainment purpose. Since I'm a twisted mind person and hate serious and eager sports stories, I portrayed it as their hobbies."

kuroneko99Nov 30, 2019 7:51 PM

Nov 30, 2019 10:41 PM

#108

ppellie

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Nov 2019

3

This episode was so great to me. As a gay man myself, who has also had gender identity questioning moments, I related VERY much to Yuuta and the conversation with Maki was super well-written.

Reading people say "he's too wise for a 14-year old" confuses me though... Yes he's young but he's also super trauma-informed? Like he honestly isn't even giving anyone advice per se but in reality just relating their experiences to his own, which happen to be wild and somewhat relatable to every one of the other boys (abuse, struggling with money, finding motivation through struggle, identity questioning, etc.)

I do totally agree that Maki IS becoming a repetitive vehicle for the writers to go "here's more trauma go talk to Dr. Maki" because they could just as easily flesh out some of the other boys (who have their own trauma-informed knowledge to go off of)

But, people complaining about all the drama not being "resolved" have set their expectations WAY too low for a show like this. Why do intense traumatic experiences need to be resolved when the boys can be seen creating joy through their shared tennis club? It feels exploratory and super-relatable. I mean they're only 14 like y'all say so it would be unrealistic if they just ALL got over their crises by winning a tennis tournament lol

Dec 1, 2019 12:56 AM

#109

matias067

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Oct 2008

13627

LGBT themes and crossdressing huh...
and more centered a bit about Kanako...
4/5.

Dec 1, 2019 2:56 AM

#110

KomaDoll

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Nov 2010

646

RobertBobert said:

KomaDoll said:
While I appreciate LGBT+ characters and anime tackling issues related to it, it felt bit heavy handed to me in this ep and went bit too much to educational territory. Not that i hated it, but I prefer more to show not tell. And that talk kinda feltl like main point of today's ep. I preferred more the substle approach the show had in the beginning about Yuu being gay than full on terminology lesson.

In other hand the show in general is kinda preachy, someone is having some kind of issue with their parents or themselves, they talk about it to either Maki or Toma and get big speech that makes them feel better. So maybe the show could also ease about that, it's just getting bit repetitive. But i guess we will get more sport focused eps in the future as well. Not that man left to wrap this up though.

In fact, I found it even quite offensive. I mean, damn it, the show "turns" a revolutionary gay male character into a trans character, thereby erasing the representation of male homosexuality and indulging Japanese toxic stereotypes that sexuality is related to gender and trans = gay? And the trans audience completely ignores this, because their representation is more important to them than feelings of gay, but cis people? Oh lol, this is one of the most extraordinary things I've heard lately.
?

I don't think it's rly erasing I mean author had already figured out these things before showing the anime, the character wasn't changed in fly. I had more issue with show having bit of "educational" moment with it, I felt like it didn't quite fit. Like i it felt like lot of the scene was there to educate audience, not for sake of characters and story. But I don't see Yuu being both nonbinary and into guys away from gay people.

Dec 1, 2019 3:00 AM

#111

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Apr 2012

18808

kuroneko99 said:
If you still have some interest in this series, it may be worth reading this article.
In this interview of the director / script writer, he said:
"I wanted to make a series that is a modern Japanese version of film "Stand by me". The theme is "parents vs children". Tennis club activity was added as an entertainment purpose. Since I'm a twisted mind person and hate serious and eager sports stories, I portrayed it as their hobbies."

Is this some kind of joke? I realized for a long time that it’s not an anime about sports at all, but I find a proposal to perceive this anime as exploring the problems of parents and children rather weird, considering how how main teen characters are ideally portrayed and how biased negatively depicted their parents. Stay with me has never been so pandering to a teenage audience.

It seems that the collaboration with Okuchi influenced the author so much that he decided not only to adopt his "evil parent" tropes, but to further surpass him in this.

@ppellie Do you really think so? This scene was not bad in essence, but in form it was still a mechanical scene where a teenager boy read a speech written by an adult man, as if it was not a teenage anime, but a 19th-century moralistic novel. In general, it seems rather strange to me when you justify the unrealistically adult behavior of characters in some scenes, but insist that the guys are "too young" in others.

KomaDoll said:

RobertBobert said:

In fact, I found it even quite offensive. I mean, damn it, the show "turns" a revolutionary gay male character into a trans character, thereby erasing the representation of male homosexuality and indulging Japanese toxic stereotypes that sexuality is related to gender and trans = gay? And the trans audience completely ignores this, because their representation is more important to them than feelings of gay, but cis people? Oh lol, this is one of the most extraordinary things I've heard lately.
?

I don't think it's rly erasing I mean author had already figured out these things before showing the anime, the character wasn't changed in fly. I had more issue with show having bit of "educational" moment with it, I felt like it didn't quite fit. Like i it felt like lot of the scene was there to educate audience, not for sake of characters and story. But I don't see Yuu being both nonbinary and into guys away from gay people.

Pondering this episode yesterday and discussing it with other people, I suddenly realized that their "crush theme" essentially just disappeared from the show. In fact, after we got 2-3 scenes connected with this, it was not only not mentioned in the show anymore, we were not even given the slightest nod to it. At the moment, their entire affiliation with the LGBTQ revolves completely around their gender identity.

As for the speech, I agree. This is not even the first time - you can see exactly the same “moralizing” during the interaction of the boys with Mitsue, whose courtesy is more like not male friendliness, but sisterly support. I mean, both of these scenes are not bad in their content and purpose, but they feel rather artificial, since it seems that they are more focused on "how to do" this, rather than how a "real teenager did it".

RobertBobertDec 1, 2019 3:15 AM

Dec 1, 2019 5:03 AM

#112

CrimsonWanderer

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Feb 2016

2654

Nieznajomy43 said:

HereticHunter said:
Let alone how she has the guts to go eat at the home of a poor kid while doing nothing to earn it neither helping with it, unlike Toma who bought the food last time they were on Maki's house.

to be fair Toma is "rich", did you even saw his room? some stuff he had would cost easily over 500$ (if they are real or "his" and not from his brother).

That doesn't change the fact that Mitsue would go to any boys house and eat there without helping with or earning it.

Let's be real here, Mitsue is a parasitical nuisance that loves to force her way in when nobody invited her. (I.E when the boys were having a grill and she assisted while not being part of the team, even the guys asked why was she there)

"We could make the world better, but it's easier to just shut our eyes."
~Blackwall

Dec 1, 2019 8:21 AM

#113

Nieznajomy43

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Dec 2016

3825

HereticHunter said:

Nieznajomy43 said:

to be fair Toma is "rich", did you even saw his room? some stuff he had would cost easily over 500$ (if they are real or "his" and not from his brother).

That doesn't change the fact that Mitsue would go to any boys house and eat there without helping with or earning it.

Let's be real here, Mitsue is a parasitical nuisance that loves to force her way in when nobody invited her. (I.E when the boys were having a grill and she assisted while not being part of the team, even the guys asked why was she there)

HereticHunter said:

Nieznajomy43 said:

to be fair Toma is "rich", did you even saw his room? some stuff he had would cost easily over 500$ (if they are real or "his" and not from his brother).

That doesn't change the fact that Mitsue would go to any boys house and eat there without helping with or earning it.

Let's be real here, Mitsue is a parasitical nuisance that loves to force her way in when nobody invited her. (I.E when the boys were having a grill and she assisted while not being part of the team, even the guys asked why was she there)

not always friendship is about "helping with or earning it", sometimes just "be there" is enough.

Manga recommendation:
- Spy x Family (Ch.96/? - biweekly) | Sakamoto Days (Ch.161/? - weekly)
- MARRIAGETOXIN (Ch.84/? - weekly) | Mama Yuuyu (Ch.29 - Finished)
- Make the Exorcist Fall in Love (Ch.63/? - biweekly)
- You and I Are Polar Opposites (Ch.52/? - biweekly)
Anime recommendation:
- Deca-Dence (Finished) | Wave, Listen to Me! (Finished)
- If My Favorite Pop Idol Made It to the Budokan, I Would Die (Finished)
- Diary of Our Days at the Breakwater (Finished)

Dec 1, 2019 9:13 AM

#114

ppellie

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Nov 2019

3

RobertBobert said:

@ppellie Do you really think so? This scene was not bad in essence, but in form it was still a mechanical scene where a teenager boy read a speech written by an adult man, as if it was not a teenage anime, but a 19th-century moralistic novel. In general, it seems rather strange to me when you justify the unrealistically adult behavior of characters in some scenes, but insist that the guys are "too young" in others.

Objectively, I agree with you! Maki's response was definitely one that you wouldn't expect from an "average" teenage boy, especially considering all the sociocultural stereotypes and perceptions about queer life that people are mentioning. But that's why I think the scene WAS well-written, because to me it explores the fact that while they are all still young and silly, they are able to approach traditionally mature/taboo topics with a certain degree of wisdom. If there was no mention of Maki's mom's friend than the speech would be WAY off base. But the ability to use that past experience to inform how to approach a new topic with a friend is something all kids and teens can, and often, do when faced with strange new info. It honestly humanized him more than anything to me personally. I mean do we want him to react stereotypically/ignorantly for him to seem more "real" or "relatable?"

Do I think it was the BEST? Hell nah... LGBTQ+ representation and experiences as I live through them in the U.S. will never be "well-written" in a Japanese show just based on cultural differences and assumptions. But for a product like that to come from writers that lived a different experience than me, and to have resonated with me as personally as it did is hella impressive.

And they did follow up with Yuu at the end stating that they don't know whether they are non-binary (different than trans in the U.S. but idk how the terms coincide in Japan) so I don't consider it as gay-erasure as much as just a character who was previously canon to be gay now ALSO exploring other gender identities! Which I think is pretty dope.

Dec 1, 2019 9:26 AM

#115

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Apr 2012

18808

@ppellie So, do you think that authors can partially abandon the realistic approach if this helps make the show more progressive? Or did you mean that you do not think this moment is bad, because it does its work well?

Dec 1, 2019 9:54 AM

#116

ppellie

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Nov 2019

3

@RobertBobert I think everyone will have a different idea of what is "realistic" when it come to social issues like this. For example, how some people think the moms' reactions are wild while others consider it normal because they've maybe experienced it themselves.

So to answer your question I would say the moment isn't bad because it does its work well. It may not be realistic for everyone, but it felt realistic for me. I think that's what the show's writing is attempting to explore. It stumbles into looking like it's pandering in order to be more progressive, but it's not actually really trying to tackle any issues or explain anything but just showcase the wild struggles of an age group. And the superficial way that the group of friends goes about discussing them with their own limited knowledge, or just repressing them by continuing to play tennis or other hobbies, is something that many people can identify with at that age.

Again, the only iffy thing for me is still the reliance on Dr. Maki and him seeming to be the only one who knows anything when they all the capacity to give advice based on my train of thinking, but maybe it's just a convenience thing for the writers ?? That's the biggest complaint I have still because even though his limited wisdom is realistic because Maki is trauma-informed, as an audience we are finding out so is like half of the cast lol

TLDR; "realistic" is subjective

ppellieDec 1, 2019 10:01 AM

Dec 1, 2019 11:43 AM

#117

CrimsonWanderer

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Feb 2016

2654

Nieznajomy43 said:

not always friendship is about "helping with or earning it", sometimes just "be there" is enough.

Mitsue is not the kind of "friend" I'd want around. She's just the biggest third wheel who's only good at being toxic. If you can name me one positive thing she has done just because "she was there" then you win. (And no, getting in a fight with girls she doesn't know isn't a good thing, specially when she earned that beating. It was all a plot contrivance to try to make us feel bad for her)

"We could make the world better, but it's easier to just shut our eyes."
~Blackwall

Dec 1, 2019 1:30 PM

#118

HectorBlaze

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Apr 2016

2207

This episode was good. By the way, can we have a normal parent in this series?! xD

Dec 1, 2019 2:06 PM

#119

MoodBooster

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Mar 2019

238

EdHaku said:
This show is becoming more of a mess with each episode. Can't it just choose one topic to focus on and make an episode around that topic? I mean, Nao was depressed the whole episode, but at the end he's fine and cheering with everyone else? And what about his mommy issues?

And I get the message the show is trying to convey, but it's just so "in your face" that it's hard for me to take it seriously, specially in that dialogue when Maki suddenly starts talking about the meaning of life or whatever. It makes it hard to sympathize like that.
Also, Mitsue is obviously in the wrong there, pushing those girls out of nowhere. You just feel bad for her because it's from her POV. And pushing those girls wasn't even necessary to begin with.

And finally, another character with mommy issues. Whoa.
It's funny how this show brings up so many dramas but hardly resolves them. Makes you wonder how they're going to settle it all with 12 episodes, plus all the dramas it will eventually bring up in the next episodes, while still closing the main plot.

Wait so the show is getting messier and messier with each episode but the message the show is trying to convey is also incredibly in your face?

no lie

Dec 1, 2019 2:12 PM

#120

Nieznajomy43

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Dec 2016

3825

HereticHunter said:

Nieznajomy43 said:

not always friendship is about "helping with or earning it", sometimes just "be there" is enough.

Mitsue is not the kind of "friend" I'd want around. She's just the biggest third wheel who's only good at being toxic. If you can name me one positive thing she has done just because "she was there" then you win. (And no, getting in a fight with girls she doesn't know isn't a good thing, specially when she earned that beating. It was all a plot contrivance to try to make us feel bad for her)

Well, she opposed will of her parents and officially wants to learn how to draw "professionally". As someone whose parents often neglect my hobbies and acted like her parents I found her decision very positive. :)

Manga recommendation:
- Spy x Family (Ch.96/? - biweekly) | Sakamoto Days (Ch.161/? - weekly)
- MARRIAGETOXIN (Ch.84/? - weekly) | Mama Yuuyu (Ch.29 - Finished)
- Make the Exorcist Fall in Love (Ch.63/? - biweekly)
- You and I Are Polar Opposites (Ch.52/? - biweekly)
Anime recommendation:
- Deca-Dence (Finished) | Wave, Listen to Me! (Finished)
- If My Favorite Pop Idol Made It to the Budokan, I Would Die (Finished)
- Diary of Our Days at the Breakwater (Finished)

Dec 1, 2019 2:19 PM

#121

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Nov 2019

730

HereticHunter said:

If you can name me one positive thing she has done just because "she was there" then you win.

She handslapped Shingo before he could ruin Maki's makeup, thereby avoiding a (time-consuming) touch up.. #donttouchaqueensmug

Dec 1, 2019 4:13 PM

#122

Not_Much

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Apr 2016

57

@anyone who put 'hated it' meet me out back, fists ready.

FR tho, that representation! Best I have ever seen in an anime.

New opponent looks tough, rip, but I believe they got this!

on the other hand, things on the home fronts are... a little more... :(

As always, looking forward to the next episode!

Dec 1, 2019 5:10 PM

#123

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Jan 2016

159

Nieznajomy43 said:

Well, she opposed will of her parents and officially wants to learn how to draw "professionally". As someone whose parents often neglect my hobbies and acted like her parents I found her decision very positive. :)

I have some friends who want to pursue something related to arts, but their parents thinks it's something useless as well. But like Mitsue, they still want to continue doing arts, and I also think that's very positive.

HereticHunter said:

If you can name me one positive thing she has done just because "she was there" then you win.

Imagine being in a sports team that most of the school thinks is useless because they barely did or win anything. The team literally zero supporters. And then someone else starts to show up to see your practices. Sure, she's mean, but she goes to visit your practice every time. She even goes to one of your practice matches and a barbecue on the weekend even if she said she won't. She also helped you grab info about your opponent. Wouldn't you at least feel relieved or grateful?

Dec 1, 2019 5:20 PM

#124

erenmeii

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Sep 2018

2132

Why parents is so KJ here?! It's annoying already ! Btw, What's FTM?
Ohhh! They tackle about LGBT community and questioning about life, this anime turn deep already.
I really like Mitsue! ❤
Another OA parents, I really hate parents here!! Now I appreciate when parents are always missing in action in other anime.

Dec 1, 2019 5:25 PM

#125

Offline

Jan 2016

159

EdHaku said:
This show is becoming more of a mess with each episode. Can't it just choose one topic to focus on and make an episode around that topic?

Sorry if I'm being rude, but you think people get to choose to have only one problem at a time?

EdHaku said:
I mean, Nao was depressed the whole episode, but at the end he's fine and cheering with everyone else? And what about his mommy issues?

He probably goes through that everyday since even before the first episode began, so why aren't complaining about that? My friends who also have helicopter parents like Nao don't like to talk about them and instead try to have as much fun as they can with us before they go back to "the hellhole" which is their parents.

EdHaku said:
Also, Mitsue is obviously in the wrong there, pushing those girls out of nowhere. You just feel bad for her because it's from her POV. And pushing those girls wasn't even necessary to begin with.

Honestly, I would have done the same thing. You think that the girls would move just by asking them? And while Maki and the group is technically doing something wrong (going to the school to see them even if no one is allowed to), you think the fangirls are any different?

EdHaku said:
It's funny how this show brings up so many dramas but hardly resolves them. Makes you wonder how they're going to settle it all with 12 episodes, plus all the dramas it will eventually bring up in the next episodes, while still closing the main plot.

I've said this before, but I think they shouldn't close the main plot with 12 episodes. It would be way better to have an open ending rather than a rushed closed ending. An open ending can also give the possibility of a second season, which is better. Also, it's still realistic to have a bunch of dramas stacked on top of each other. My schoolmates have similar problems to almost all of the dramas here, and it's hard to resolve them in real life.

jd2001zDec 1, 2019 5:42 PM

Dec 1, 2019 5:29 PM

#126

Offline

Jan 2016

159

YamEnele said:
Why parents is so KJ here?! It's annoying already ! Btw, What's FTM?
Ohhh! They tackle about LGBT community and questioning about life, this anime turn deep already.
I really like Mitsue! ❤
Another OA parents, I really hate parents here!! Now I appreciate when parents are always missing in action in other anime.

FTM means Female to Male, basically someone who is biologically female identifying as a male. It's a term for a transgender male. The opposite is MTF, which is Male to Female, which is the term for a transgender woman.

Dec 1, 2019 6:36 PM

#127

erenmeii

Offline

Sep 2018

2132

jd2001z said:

YamEnele said:
Why parents is so KJ here?! It's annoying already ! Btw, What's FTM?
Ohhh! They tackle about LGBT community and questioning about life, this anime turn deep already.
I really like Mitsue! ❤
Another OA parents, I really hate parents here!! Now I appreciate when parents are always missing in action in other anime.

FTM means Female to Male, basically someone who is biologically female identifying as a male. It's a term for a transgender male. The opposite is MTF, which is Male to Female, which is the term for a transgender woman.

ohhh, thank you! that word is new to me..

Dec 1, 2019 6:57 PM

#128

CrimsonWanderer

Offline

Feb 2016

2654

Nieznajomy43 said:

HereticHunter said:

Mitsue is not the kind of "friend" I'd want around. She's just the biggest third wheel who's only good at being toxic. If you can name me one positive thing she has done just because "she was there" then you win. (And no, getting in a fight with girls she doesn't know isn't a good thing, specially when she earned that beating. It was all a plot contrivance to try to make us feel bad for her)

Well, she opposed will of her parents and officially wants to learn how to draw "professionally". As someone whose parents often neglect my hobbies and acted like her parents I found her decision very positive. :)

That has nothing to do with Maki.

jd2001z said:

Imagine being in a sports team that most of the school thinks is useless because they barely did or win anything. The team literally zero supporters. And then someone else starts to show up to see your practices. Sure, she's mean, but she goes to visit your practice every time. She even goes to one of your practice matches and a barbecue on the weekend even if she said she won't. She also helped you grab info about your opponent. Wouldn't you at least feel relieved or grateful?

Not at all, She never stood for support until 8 episodes later when she finally did something. All she did was being at the stairs, murmuring about how terrible they are. The only one of them who heard her trash talking was Yuta who was the most "patient" one. I'm pretty sure that if the team heard her trash talking them, things would have been really different.

this_shit_again said:

She handslapped Shingo before he could ruin Maki's makeup, thereby avoiding a (time-consuming) touch up.. #donttouchaqueensmug

Anyone could do that. And Toma was there too which would have made more sense, but for some reason this anime forgot about him :^)

CrimsonWandererDec 1, 2019 7:07 PM

"We could make the world better, but it's easier to just shut our eyes."
~Blackwall

Dec 1, 2019 7:11 PM

#129

Kaidu-

Offline

Mar 2014

333

jd2001z said:

Sorry if I'm being rude, but you think people get to choose to have only one problem at a time?

What does this have anything to do with what I said? I'm talking about the narrative focus, not the characters problems.

jd2001z said:

He probably goes through that everyday since even before the first episode began, so why aren't complaining about that? My friends who also have helicopter parents like Nao don't like to talk about them and instead try to have as much fun as they can with us before they go back to "the hellhole" which is their parents.

What are you even saying... I meant to ask about what was even the point of him being depressed if that didn't amount to anything at the end? It would be understandable to show one or two scenes of how that affected him and just end there, but the episode gave enough focus to it to the point where him getting over it at the end just make it seem like all that focus was for nothing except filling the gaps in the episode. He is even depressed when everyone is talking in the library.

jd2001z said:

Honestly, I would have done the same thing. You think that the girls would move just by asking them? And while Maki and the group is technically doing something wrong (going to the school to see them even if no one is allowed to), you think the fangirls are any different?

Now you're just being forceful. There was plenty of space for Maki and Yu to stay and record. It didn't necessarily needed to be that spot with those girls.

jd2001z said:

I've said this before, but I think they shouldn't close the main plot with 12 episodes. It would be way better to have an open ending rather than a rushed closed ending. An open ending can also give the possibility of a second season, which is better. Also, it's still realistic to have a bunch of dramas stacked on top of each other. My schoolmates have similar problems to almost all of the dramas here, and it's hard to resolve them in real life.

It's going to close one way or another. Maybe it could be a split cour and have a second season ready, but waiting for an original anime to make success just to create a new season is not common at all. It doesn't even make sense to make an open ending like that.
I also feel that they are rushing it a little too much lately, so I doubt it's split cour, but that's just an assumption and I can't predict the future.

I'm not saying having drama is unrealistic. I'm saying it's bad for the show to have so many unresolved with just 4 episodes left.

MoodBooster said:

Wait so the show is getting messier and messier with each episode but the message the show is trying to convey is also incredibly in your face?

Yes. What's wrong with that statement? Those are two different things.

Dec 1, 2019 7:45 PM

#130

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Jan 2016

159

EdHaku said:
What does this have anything to do with what I said? I'm talking about the narrative focus, not the characters problems.

What are you even saying... I meant to ask about what was even the point of him being depressed if that didn't amount to anything at the end? It would be understandable to show one or two scenes of how that affected him and just end there, but the episode gave enough focus to it to the point where him getting over it at the end just make it seem like all that focus was for nothing except filling the gaps in the episode. He is even depressed when everyone is talking in the library.

Oh. Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you said. I can't say anything about them because I'm not good with these aspects of stories.

EdHaku said:
Now you're just being forceful. There was plenty of space for Maki and Yu to stay and record. It didn't necessarily needed to be that spot with those girls.

Sorry again if I sounded forceful, I'm not used to discussing things with other people (especially online), especially if it's about a show that I can relate to. And for the space to record, yeah, there can be other possible places, but I think they wanted to get the best possible angle for recording his movements. If they went a bit to the right, they would seen his back more which might block his arm movements, and there are also some girls on the left. Also, if Mitsue didn't act as a distraction, the other girls might have noticed them and realised that they weren't girls.

EdHaku said:
I'm not saying having drama is unrealistic. I'm saying it's bad for the show to have so many unresolved with just 4 episodes left.

I still think it's fine for the show to have at least some unresolved problems? It's seriously hard to resolve some the problems in this show in real life, so I think it makes the show more realistic. Sorry (again!) if I'm wrong. I've never been good at determining the pacing for anything I've seen. I'm better at analyzing stuff for what they say rather than how it goes in stories.

jd2001zDec 1, 2019 7:52 PM

Dec 1, 2019 8:27 PM

#131

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Apr 2012

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HectorBlaze said:
This episode was good. By the way, can we have a normal parent in this series?! xD

I call it "Okuchi's syndrome". Remember his PriPri and Code Geass.

@ppellie Well, I can understand her motivation, but they definitely needed to direct this scene as a slasher?

Dec 2, 2019 9:14 AM

#132

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Nov 2019

730

Nieznajomy43 said:
Well, Make just have more experience about this stuff and Yu is still confused and Maki told there is nothing wrong with that and he isn't weird (in the bad way).

He's a little scene-stealer is what he is. Buuut.. I guess it's fine..

Since they finally explained who that guy from episode 2 was. I kept wondering..

It's been bugging me all cour.

And like you said..
He opened up about his own doubts of who he is, I think Yuuta felt comfort in that. As well as learning about his attitudes on gender identity. Which also clarifies why he didn't care what people thought when he wore that sun visor back in episode 2.

This episode feels like a continuation of episode 2 to some extent..

HereticHunter said:
And Toma was there too which would have made more sense, but for some reason this anime forgot about him :^)

I got the sense that Toma felt 'uneasy' being there and so he just started zoning out..
That is, If I'm reading his expression right from earlier in the scene..

I don't think he was paying much attention unless he was spoken to..

this_shit_againDec 2, 2019 4:38 PM

Dec 2, 2019 9:18 AM

#133

Lylaaz

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1684

Zerity said:

Pknoctis said:
That non-binary discussion felt kinda out of place.

facts, was like what was the need for this at that moment other than to push LGBTQ shit on us

And this is why I think the topic was kind of being put in on purpose, so the authors could add their own opinion.

Not sure if anyone noticed, but Maki actually told the person struggling with their gender to "wait and see".

That's really important, or in fact, the most important point.

How often do you see people telling that to each other? How often is it more about choosing something (like something within hundreds of made up genders) and going with it 100% and fighting against others because they don't agree with you or whatever reasons.

Wait and see. At one point you will know what's right. Existential crisis are normal thing for a teenager.
That's why Maki's answer was great.

LylaazDec 2, 2019 9:33 AM

Dec 2, 2019 9:58 AM

#134

Zerity

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Jul 2017

1841

@Lylaaz facts, I loved how he said wait and see instead of being like ye go and do it now! Still feel like the whole thing was a bit out of place but i mean I dont hate those kind of talks anyways. I liked his answer at least.

Dec 2, 2019 10:40 AM

#135

Jocus_

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Sep 2017

101

I see... After this episode I understood why is this an anime original... For me, the purpose of this anime is to teach the teenagers, today's social issues they all face...
1. Whether it's mental and physical abuse from parents (Maki and Itsuki),
2. Rebelling against a parent (Toma),
3. Gender identification (Yuta),
4. Introvert's dreams and bullying (Kanako),
5. Adoption insecurity (Rintaro),
6. Pressuring parents (Nao) and other issues which teenagers face today...

Every character's nature is a result of that backstory
1. Maki is insecure himself so he tends to become independent and sense others insecurities,
2. Toma wants to control his temper and get along well,
3. Kanako has put up a shield to prevent herself from becoming a bullying victim by undermining others with her negative treatment of things (just like Kuroki Tomoko from Watamote),
4. Itsuki tends to take radical measures when drove to a corner,
5. Yuta avoids contact with others too often and let them push him around,
6. Rintaro wants to prove his worth even though he is worthy, he underestimates himself,
7. Nao stays silent, not standing up for himself getting pushed around acc to others wills, etc
Personally I like Kanako's story the best as she is the most relatable one for us otaku anime watchers and creators.

It is brilliant if you ask me that the creators are going for awareness, this is a really solid medium for it too.. I really hope this anime reaches more and more audience. I am sure it will later on, cover more issues such as depression, suicidal nature and others... It is needed as today's teens have become so volatile with suicide and depression rates more than ever.... KUDOS TO STARS ALIGN CREATORS

Dec 2, 2019 2:11 PM

#136

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Nov 2019

730

Can we get a spinoff of Yuuta and Maki Nancy Drewing their way from case to case?

Dec 2, 2019 2:28 PM

#137

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Dec 2015

166

Hatsuyuki said:

Pknoctis said:
That non-binary discussion felt kinda out of place.

It took me out of my immersion and made me think to myself "damn this anime is taking on identity politics huh"

I watch anime as a form of escapism, I am constantly reminded on a daily basis of these issues IRL, I watch anime precisely to avoid them.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing though, just that I didn't really expect it to plunge into these social and sexual issues like this. Also I'm usually very okay with drama, but I have to say the fact that each one of these kids have some sort of fucked up family circumstances is just ridiculous, give it a break, if you're aiming at realism when you're tackling sensitive topics like identity issues then at least try to make the drama a bit more believable.

bruh. this entire show is about social issues?? it had lgbt themes from the very first episode LOL u guys are really surprised???

Dec 2, 2019 2:42 PM

#138

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Dec 2015

166

RobertBobert said:

KomaDoll said:
While I appreciate LGBT+ characters and anime tackling issues related to it, it felt bit heavy handed to me in this ep and went bit too much to educational territory. Not that i hated it, but I prefer more to show not tell. And that talk kinda feltl like main point of today's ep. I preferred more the substle approach the show had in the beginning about Yuu being gay than full on terminology lesson.

In other hand the show in general is kinda preachy, someone is having some kind of issue with their parents or themselves, they talk about it to either Maki or Toma and get big speech that makes them feel better. So maybe the show could also ease about that, it's just getting bit repetitive. But i guess we will get more sport focused eps in the future as well. Not that man left to wrap this up though.

In fact, I found it even quite offensive. I mean, damn it, the show "turns" a revolutionary gay male character into a trans character, thereby erasing the representation of male homosexuality and indulging Japanese toxic stereotypes that sexuality is related to gender and trans = gay? And the trans audience completely ignores this, because their representation is more important to them than feelings of gay, but cis people? Oh lol, this is one of the most extraordinary things I've heard lately.

Talim said:

And a lot of women watch anime as forms of escapism too from the rampant sexual harassment and assault we have to endure ourselves in real life or hear/read about every day in the news, and yet we're constantly bombarded with rape jokes or harassment/assault being played off for laughs in tons of anime genres. I gave up on expecting anime to stop being sexist ages ago. So get over it. Not every anime is gunna cater to your needs, so stop expecting it to.

Okay, then what can you say about gay boys who are probably watching this anime too and along with this episode find out that the anime refused to represent them, instead preferring the homophobic gay = trans thing?

calm down dude. there are way more pieces of media that delve into issues cis gay men face, or that just portray them decently, than there are that talk about trans issues in a halfway-decent way. yu was never confirmed to be a cis gay man, they were just targeted by bullies, and yes they had a crush on toma, but the fact that theyre nonbinary doesnt change that lmfao. theyre figuring themselves out and it seems like they dont like the idea of being labeled a "boy" or a "girl" or having to choose from some category. i've seen almost no other characters in like any media especially anime who are figuring out their gender and are portrayed well. if you want media with cis gay characters, ask me, or like look up "anime with actual gay characters" or whatever.

and this episode was not to show that yu is trans bc theyre gay, it literally made no connection between the two, and actually talked abt the subject in a mature and complete way.

like i get it. im a lesbian, theres barely any media that portrays us as anything other than stereotypes. but u just look kind of pathetic here. i hope you realize that the lgbt rights movement was literally led by trans women, specifically black and brown trans women. you literally would not have rights without the trans community. maybe just have a little decency, trans people arent stealing anything from you.

wawawawawawawawaDec 2, 2019 2:45 PM

Dec 2, 2019 2:48 PM

#139

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Dec 2015

166

idk i don't think its super unrealistic for those 2 to have that conversation like... yeah maybe they're too mature for 14 year olds, but like i've had similar conversations with my friends as a young person so i don't think its so unreasonable.

Dec 2, 2019 3:17 PM

#140

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@youcansmileagain Um ... why did you decide that I am cis gay boy?

Dec 2, 2019 4:29 PM

#141

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Nov 2019

730

Fayrin said:
I'm sure his talk with Maki helped him a lot though, but I'm worried a bit after that confrontation with his mother. Good thing his sisters don't seem to be as prejudiced as she is, so he isn't really alone there.

Oof, that scene was rough. I hope she doesn't come for her daughters next..

this_shit_againDec 2, 2019 4:32 PM

Dec 2, 2019 5:55 PM

#142

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RobertBobert said:
In fact, I found it even quite offensive. I mean, damn it, the show "turns" a revolutionary gay male character into a trans character, thereby erasing the representation of male homosexuality and indulging Japanese toxic stereotypes that sexuality is related to gender and trans = gay? And the trans audience completely ignores this, because their representation is more important to them than feelings of gay, but cis people?

Wait, when did Yuu ever confirm that they're trans? They only said that they can consider themselves non-binary (hence why I'm using they/them pronouns), but that still doesn't feel right. Maki also told Yuu that it's find to wait to figure what they really are, and that they don't need to be in a rush. And even if it's true that he's a trans character, I think it's fine. There's barely any trans representation in anime, I only know of Lily in Zombieland Saga and an anime called Hourou Musuko, and I didn't even know that anime existed until I watched this episode.

Also, they never mentioned once about the trans=gay thing? Or the sexuality is related to gender thing? They only talked about the friend of Maki's mom, who was transgender, and how Yuu doesn't really know yet what gender they are.

Dec 2, 2019 6:44 PM

#143

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166

RobertBobert said:
@youcansmileagain Um ... why did you decide that I am cis gay boy?

that's what you implied, if you're not then why are you offended lmfao

Dec 2, 2019 6:49 PM

#144

sango868

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78

Zerity said:

Pknoctis said:
That non-binary discussion felt kinda out of place.

facts, was like what was the need for this at that moment other than to push LGBTQ shit on us

Wow imagine being so homophobic and close minded to think a show is 'pushing LGBT shit on us' if you don't like it don't watch, there needs to be less people like you who don't seem to realize that it's very important to have LGBTQ+ rep even in anime.

Dec 2, 2019 6:50 PM

#145

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Dec 2015

166

@RobertBobert if you're a straight cis guy, what makes you think you have any say in this discussion? you're simply using gay people to try to justify your distaste for the trans community.

Dec 3, 2019 12:45 AM

#146