| Its actually the complete opposite. Hearing people say shit out loud for no apparent reason is bad storytelling. (Except in the case of shit like JoJo because its JoJo) |
Sm0ggy said: Why so many comments for an obvious troll post? It's not really a troll post, just a terribly inarticulate and pretentious one. Just a regular post from the OP. |
Satyr_iconApr 27, 2019 2:07 PM
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petran79 said: Safeanew said: The difference between what I call inner monologue and first person narration, is that the first person narrator tells a story too someone, while the inner monologue is a depiction of the inner thought process. If the first person narrator adresses the audience I am for it, that is part of dialogue, but if it is a private thinking process, I would call it poetry, because it avoids talking to someone. You had mentioned Metamorphosis on a previous post I think and how it would be better without narration.This movie shares some similarities. Without spoilers, this short movie can be labelled as an inner monologue because the character in question undergoes a similar change without the viewer being aware of it and not even the main character has any idea what will happen. It is like the identity of the character changes as well. Not without narration, but without things like "What has happened to me? he thought". This creates the illusion of coherent thought. Your example is a full story narrated in first person, not with an added 'he thought' tag. This is also the problem with Fight club, with the thinking happening in real time, not in the style of fleeting memory. In this way flashbacks is a better technique than directly hearing thoughts, but flashbacks are bad in a similar way. An example of an anime I criticize for this is Bloom Into You that have a lot direct thinking, rather than first person narration. |
JackJoestar said: I get what your trying to say. I’m visual media, you should try to have actions and body language try to convey emotions better, but I don’t think this counts as a general story telling rule. I am not against using inner monologue, my claim is that it is seperate from the story. The story is narration, action, background and dialogue. Inner monologue is more like poetry, it is used to convey emotions in an abstract way. Inner monologue distracts from the story because it is unrelated and fills up space that the story could have used. "I want a hamburger, the little girl thought" is an example of inner monologue in written form. This is poetry and unrelated to anything that happens in the story. |
| do me a favor and never ever get into story writing then. |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
hazarddex said: do me a favor and never ever get into story writing then. Why? you don't have to read my works if you don't want to, but maybe others would like stories like that. |
Safeanew said: hazarddex said: do me a favor and never ever get into story writing then. Why? you don't have to read my works if you don't want to, but maybe others would like stories like that. some of the greatest character developments come from inner monologues and character thoughts. it can also create characterization and help set out personality that cannot be seen through external dialogue alone. so no i strongly disagree with that statement. |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
hazarddex said: Safeanew said: Why? you don't have to read my works if you don't want to, but maybe others would like stories like that. some of the greatest character developments come from inner monologues and character thoughts. it can also create characterization and help set out personality that cannot be seen through external dialogue alone. so no i strongly disagree with that statement. Character development is not an important part of stories. How do you know if a character changes? I am a lot more for telling a story, of something actually happening. I claim that personality do not exist in any fixed form, what exist is the dialogues people have with each other. |
Safeanew said: hazarddex said: some of the greatest character developments come from inner monologues and character thoughts. it can also create characterization and help set out personality that cannot be seen through external dialogue alone. so no i strongly disagree with that statement. Character development is not an important part of stories. you lost all credibility with that statement were done here. if you don't think a character needs to grow or change through out a story then you've lost a majority of readers. change is something happening. inner growth is something happening. a change in there perspective a shift in how they view the world all of these can be seen through inner monologues. not every thing we decided is done because we talked to others. we can think out stuff for ourselves. are you trying to tell me your thoughts are not important? are you not an individual? who said i was claiming that it was fixed, but there are traits that make up many parts of a whole person's personality. |
GrimAtramentApr 27, 2019 3:55 PM
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
Peaceful_Critic said: hazarddex said: What characters? most character development I like(i.e Rikka(Chuuniyo), DR, and MLP) don't use it. I mean characters do exist when their inner side is distinctive(i.e. Yuno Gasai Umaru-chan), that said, those characters can and will show that side outside as well. Inner thoughts easily can be shown through words or actions. There are no thoughts that can't be expressed. To be honest, inner thoughts just isn't as good, in my opinion. Seeing Yuno gleefully and passionately kill people yelling Yuki is 10x more interesting than her thinking on who to kill. I would like her character a lot more without the inner thoughts.some of the greatest character developments come from inner monologues and character thoughts. it can also create characterization and help set out personality that cannot be seen through external dialogue alone. so no i strongly disagree with that statement. do me a favor and go read the illiad. or hell hamlet. you know that whole to be or not to be speech? that is what in theater is called a Soliloquy a characters inner most thoughts only spoken out loud to the audience, but in story are only said in there head. and not every setting allows for external dialogue unless you have a habit of speaking to yourself in a empty room. and please not every piece of inner dialogue is limited to "i want to kill x person." Peaceful_Critic said: majority does not decided my opinion, but im warning him if he does write a novel having 0 character development is jugde boring not just to a "appeal to popularity.' but from a personal stand point.hazarddex said: Appeal to Popularity is a weak argument. The majority shouldn't decide your opinion. I'm with them as I don't see development as nearly important as other elements of a character like personality. you lost all credibility with that statement were done here. if you don't think a character needs to grow or change through out a story then you've lost a majority of readers. change is something happening. inner growth is something happening. a change in there perspective a shift in how they view the world all of these can be seen through inner monologues. not every thing we decided is done because we talked to others. we can think out stuff for ourselves. are you trying to tell me your thoughts are not important? are you not an individual? who said i was claiming that it was fixed, but there are traits that make up many parts of a whole person's personality. I do agree that development has an impact on the story, the characters take new actions when changes to their personalities occur. This, in turn, makes the story distinct from just what they would've done if they didn't change. no one is the same throughout there entire life so why should your characters be? character development dictates a characters personality and how they will change. so yes its more important then personality. unless your planning on making a unrealistic static character like spungebob. also to add onto that yuno has inner dialogue in fact she has a TON of inner dialogue. |
GrimAtramentApr 27, 2019 4:23 PM
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
| OP has trash taste. But let OP have trash taste, he can try to shove it down our throats but there's really no way he can so it shouldn't bother us if he wants to enjoy his trash. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Shiroanon said: i may be misreading since i've only skimmed this thread... but you're saying that you think characters should have no depth, as that's a waste to the story, and they should be nothing more than walking plot devices? yep that's apparently exactly what they are saying. character thoughts are not important. and in that respect his thoughts are no longer important. because thoughts don't matter RIIIIGHHHTTT??? |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
Peaceful_Critic said: I'm with them as I don't see development as nearly important as other elements of a character like personality. You know what's a great way to get some insight into a character's true, unfiltered personality? Inner monologues. Also, OP actually just said: "Character development is not an important part of stories." Peaceful_Critic, please tell me how the hell you can defend someone who spouts this kind of bullshit. |
Stygian_PrisonerApr 27, 2019 4:40 PM
Shiroanon said: i may be misreading since i've only skimmed this thread... but you're saying that you think characters should have no depth or personality, as that's a waste to the story, and they should be nothing more than walking plot devices? No, I am saying that inner monologues can hinder showing a persons true character. A shy person is far more interesting if I see that person acting shy, rather than hearing there thoughts about how shy they are. Misunderstandings feel more real when you don't have random explanations for them. |
hazarddex said: you lost all credibility with that statement were done here. if you don't think a character needs to grow or change through out a story then you've lost a majority of readers. change is something happening. inner growth is something happening. a change in there perspective a shift in how they view the world all of these can be seen through inner monologues. not every thing we decided is done because we talked to others. we can think out stuff for ourselves. are you trying to tell me your thoughts are not important? are you not an individual? who said i was claiming that it was fixed, but there are traits that make up many parts of a whole person's personality. I am claiming my inner thoughts are not important, you will only hear my spoken thoughts. I claim that change is only created by discussion and conflict, that is why inner monologue will never create change, because there is no conflict in inner monologue. |
| A good example of a series that I think is without any inner monologue is Fate/Zero. I am really liking the Fate series right now so just wanted to mention that. |
SafeanewApr 27, 2019 4:50 PM
Peaceful_Critic said: Most characters I like are already unfiltered as that's why they are interesting. Characters that are only interesting due to inner thoughts are limited on what way they can show their personalities. Something I value is what way their personalities are shown. Yuno is boring to watch due to her monologue mainly as the only insight into her character and it doesn't really let you know anything you didn't already. O course, some shows do use inner monologue correctly(in showing you something you wouldn't know otherwise), in most cases, though, I think the majority o characters would improve without them. I did, read my previous post. Many, many characters aren't as over-the-top and transparent as Yuno Gasai. That's why her inner monologues aren't interesting, because she doesn't need them. The more complex, well-written characters obviously require more storytelling techniques than just "action" to effectively flesh out their characterization. That's kind of point we're trying to make here. "Different strokes for different folks." You can't just dismiss basic storytelling devices or character types as inherently"bad" like it's an absolute truth just because it's not in your preference. That's an incredibly narrow-minded notion. |
Stygian_PrisonerApr 27, 2019 5:08 PM
| What about comedy anime when sometimes the punchline of a joke is in a character's inner monologue? Like many times in KonoSuba |
Peaceful_Critic said: That's the point you are trying to make hazarddex really didn't give me that impression. I didn't mean it as a truth. I was explaining why I like other ways of showing a character's personality more and that most monologues are unneeded, those were my claims. Also, what trait can't be shown through dialogue or actions? I didn't state inner monologues as inherently awful anyway, in the first post I stated the opposite. I meant that the OP is stating his assessment of monologues as absolute truth, and that's the point of contention most of us are trying to refute. I wasn't really referring to you. My bad, i should have been more specific. |
Safeanew said: Snot-nosed_Brat said: First of all, to imply a tool in storytelling itself is bad is wrongheaded. It is only as good or bad as the author/screenwriter/director utilizes it. Second of all, inner monologues are different from straight exposition. While straight exposition is just dumping info about the world or story, inner monologues have a special conditions that makes them useful storytelling tools. One, that they can convey or emphasize ideas that otherwise would not be able to merely be shown, and two, the narrator of an inner monologue is not omnipresent of a situation i.e. they have their own voice that may not reliably reflect the reality of their world. Also known as unreliable narrators. By saying inner monologues are bad, you are also saying unreliable narrators are bad, which is wrong and stupid because they often make for really engaging stories. A storytelling tool can be bad! If they are not very useful or hinder your goals in storytelling, then they are bad. I never said unreliable narrators are bad. It is inner monologue that is bad, not because they are unreliable, rather they are too reliable. Can you give examples on ideas that can't be shown? The problem with your logic is that it relies on the conditions that inner monologues are 'not useful' and 'hinder goals in storytelling' which to both I disagree. That's a whole different argument, and not even as good as an argument as the prior imo. Also you say it's 'too reliable' but that is a generalization. There are plenty of occasions in anime where the narrator (via inner monologue) presents information that is not indicative of the reality of their world. While I agree that there are many anime where the inner monologue is too reliable, that ultimately cannot speak for every instance of inner monologue in anime. With that being said, it cannot be bad because there are occasions where inner monologue is played straight to positive effect. Regardless of how many bad ones there are, to call it as a storytelling tool bad because it is often used badly is wrong. As to examples of anime where inner monologue conveys information that otherwise could not be shown, two examples that come to mind are Karekano and Sangatsu no Lion. The inner monologues in these shows give unique perspective that otherwise would not show in their interactions with others. I think something you're ignoring here is that being more esoteric is not exactly good. Sure you could use metaphor and other tools to convey emotions and the like, but these require the audience to think about them. If you give the audience too much to chew at once, it is likely to go over their head. Inner monologues can be used to provide this context in a quick and efficient manner so that way greater ideas can be explored without losing people along the way. |
Snot-nosed_BratApr 27, 2019 6:20 PM
Peaceful_Critic said: I don't think that was OP's intent. OP also said in the OG post that they aren't against monologues. What complex character needs monologues? Can you show me an example I know as well? I have a fondness/preference for the simpler characters like Death the Kid, so I don't pay attention to those character types much. The majority of characters I know suck personality-wise, I would get only 1 or 2 characters I enjoy in most shows. I think you need to re-read his claims in the first few pages again. He says he is not against expository narration, which is different. But he claims time and again that inner monologue detracts from story and character and is a waste of time, regardless of the medium (see his argument vs. CallMeHoot); which could be the case sometimes, but not always. He even goes so far as to claim that Fight Club would be better without the inner monologues, which is frankly a ludicrous idea. Looking at your favorite characters and anime, i can't think of a good example you might know; But the best example i know i can give you is pretty much the whole main cast of Evangelion. They need their inner monologues; the show simply does not work without them. Yes, they're not exactly likeable characters (and they're not meant to be), but it's the best way for us as the audience to understand why they are the way they are, and it makes their eventual growth and cathartic choices in the end that much more impactful. |
Stygian_PrisonerApr 27, 2019 6:44 PM
Peaceful_Critic said: What complex character needs monologues? Can you show me an example I know as well? I have a fondness/preference for the simpler characters like Death the Kid, so I don't pay attention to those character types much. The majority of characters I know suck personality-wise, I would get only 1 or 2 characters I enjoy in most shows. I mean, you have Death Note in your favourites. The entire anime is built on inner monologues. And one of the first things OP said is that Death Note could have been done without it. |
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| I feel like I know what you're trying to say, but you're missing the mark in how you're trying to present your criticisms. When it comes to storytelling, showing instead of telling is important. A scene should be able to let you know what a character is feeling or doing without having to have a character just outright think "this is what I am feeling/doing". On the other hand, that doesn't mean hearing characters thoughts itself is flawed, just in a lot of it's execution. A scene should convey as much as it can without resorting to monologues, but that can only go so far, it's still a necessity, especially with narration. Just like every other aspect of storytelling, it's almost entirely reliant on execution. |
 |
Peaceful_Critic said: My OG post mentioned tactical anime as an expectation: "Stuff like tactical anime would need it(like Death Note), but that's it." Add comedy anime to that as well. Oh, I hadn't seen it. My bad. Technically, Death Note doesn't need it. Detective stories work the same way, only the detective will blurb out the solution out loud in the end, while in Death Note there's a constant battle of wits, so they gotta show it inside their heads, especially since Light can't suddenly laugh out loud maniacally and tell the audience his thoughts since his room is bugged. That's the issue here: what's the difference between a character talking their mind out loud and to show what they are thinking? There's none. They are just two types of narratives which can amount to the same end, depending on the author's ability. It's somewhat rarer in anime and movies since they are a very visual medium, but inner monologues and thoughts are extremely common in literature. So that's why, when one of the first things OP said was that "hearing what the character thinks is bad for the novel", it's pretty obvious they don't really know what they are talking about. Well, that, and almost everything else they said. Also, for your question: Shakespeare. I know this is kinda cheating, but I mean, OP saying inner monologues are unnecessary when one of the greatest writers in the English language is especially known for his monologues is rather silly. |
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Peaceful_Critic said: Seeing their thought process is part of the fun, I wouldn't know how they got to said conclusions, assuming it wasn't a trial where they had to explain it. In detective stories, clues are shown and the thought process is entirely explained at the end. It's exactly the same thing, only the process is explained immediately or concomitantly with what's happening. Only, Death Note's style is easier to do in a visual medium. Another Note, a Death Note novel, was written in a more typical detective story fashion. Peaceful_Critic said: (... )Inner Monologue is the least interesting and dynamic way a character can show their personalities. " This is why I think, in most cases, characters do well without the monologues. All that says more about the kind of thing you consume than that monologues cannot be used to develop a character. Peaceful_Critic said: If he was so good, people wouldn't be forced to read his stuff in high school, we would want to read it. Cringe. Peaceful_Critic said: A writer using them doesn't make them needed and most things he wrote was dialogue. Pick a show on MAL we think is good and explain why that show needed it. So? Dialogue is not monologue. I don't know what you meant by that. Both Tatami Galaxy and Monogatari are two anime that are special exactly because of their monologues and how they execute it. Monologue can also be used to create emotional scenes if handled well by both the director and the voice actors, like in Sangatsu no Lion (several times, by several characters; almost all of the main characters rant one time or another, and it only adds to their characters, especially during the shogi matches), or in this scene (which is more a one-sided dialogue but you get what I mean), that I heard comes from a pretty dumb anime but it's pretty strong by itself because of the voice actress' performance. So yeah, in "most cases", monologues can be annoying, but so it is about everything. If you judge the quality of something by the norm rather than the exception, then it's easy to hate on anything. |
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Safeanew said: hairu said: You're not being serious right? You want the story to have no character opinions at all? How boring would that be. You obviously do not see how important a character feelings are. No telling character's feelings are not important, if anything feelings are important because they can't be stated. Stating a character's feelings is also part of good storytelling, not everyone can just understand how a character feels in most cases explanations are very interesting as well. |
Safeanew said: pionelya said: I understand what do you say but most people want to know character's thoughts and feelings. Somethimes this is the most important thing in the story for them. (Actually most of anime from manga, you know. This is the answer for why there are inner monologues in stories) I dont think character's thoughts are ruin the story. For example, I love psychological genre so I want to know sometimes their thoughts, feelings. I'm thinking that your point is not bad but there are different stories. Not all the same. I'm sure, you'll find something good for your taste If you're gonna search. It is an argument about what a story truly is, hearing thoughts and feelings are nice for many, but I claim they are not part of the story, they distract from the story. A story is dialogue, this can mean narration, action, images and everything that is part of the world. The thought process is just added explanations or exposition from nowhere. I am talking about the difference between thinking something and saying that something. If a character thinks, it affects noone, if a character talks, it affects the people that hear it. By having characters be silent rather than hearing there thoughts shows what a person truly is, they are outside the body, not inside the body. Caligula shows this masterfully by having the characters share their experience with each other. The characters can't understand each other because they have very different experience and way they talk. Yeah, I know what you say. I understand that. There are some good animes too. I don't think you are wrong. For me... I'm a writer so I like hearing character's thought, feelings etc. All of this part of the story for me. Thoughts, feelings, actions, even silence. A big image. Btw, I dropped Caligula, not my thing. |
Peaceful_Critic said: Safeanew said: why would it improve without the monologue?A good example of a series that I think is without any inner monologue is Fate/Zero. I am really liking the Fate series right now so just wanted to mention that. It helps make the discussions in the series better, each character act and speak based on their own belief. By not hearing what a character is thinking, one can focus all ones attention on how they appear in the story. Fate/Zero do this with great effect by letting the character's words and actions speak for themselves. |
Safeanew said: Tannhauser said: I presume you have never read a novel. This apply to novels too, hearing what the character thinks is bad for the novel. "This apply to novels too" ?????????????????????? Sorry but I took literature classes in university and what you say is just WRONG. Have you ever read a classic or even a modern book? Really, what you said is just mindblowing. |
 |
| I'm not even going to comment on that crap because inner monologues are pretty much common and 100% accepted, since god knows since when, in EVERY medium. That this opinion can inflate to 8 baffling pages is the only thing I wanted to add. |
| @Giulia14 Thanks. 8pages born out of that?? Safeanew said: Spoken monologue is fine, hearing character's thought are bad. So, they should follow the theatrical convention of monologue, I guess. Safeanew said: The most important thing in storytelling is dialogue What about the "main " narration? o_O |
Rei_IIIApr 28, 2019 4:42 AM
pionelya said: Safeanew said: It is an argument about what a story truly is, hearing thoughts and feelings are nice for many, but I claim they are not part of the story, they distract from the story. A story is dialogue, this can mean narration, action, images and everything that is part of the world. The thought process is just added explanations or exposition from nowhere. I am talking about the difference between thinking something and saying that something. If a character thinks, it affects noone, if a character talks, it affects the people that hear it. By having characters be silent rather than hearing there thoughts shows what a person truly is, they are outside the body, not inside the body. Caligula shows this masterfully by having the characters share their experience with each other. The characters can't understand each other because they have very different experience and way they talk. Yeah, I know what you say. I understand that. There are some good animes too. I don't think you are wrong. For me... I'm a writer so I like hearing character's thought, feelings etc. All of this part of the story for me. Thoughts, feelings, actions, even silence. A big image. Btw, I dropped Caligula, not my thing. Thank you for the polite sentiment. I can like hearing character's thought, feelings etc. too, I just noticed how they often work as a barrier of truly understanding characters. Caligula is quite a provocative work and it leaves the audience hanging a lot in that it just tells it's story without explaining things for the viewer. But I have not seen a show handling emotions more strongly than Caligula and I claim it does this exactly by avoiding explaining too much things for the viewer. |
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