Zefyris said: hpulley said: Every other show? Hardly. UtaPri, Touken Ranbu, Haikyuu!!!, Drifters, Bungou Stray Dogs 2, Eupu2, www.Working, Natsume Go, even Vivid Strike probably more than broke even this season with the first 4-5 at least likely making very good money. Next, unless you meant "production committee" instead of Studio, your comment shows you don't understand how most anime works. Most studios are either at the bottom of the committee or are not even on the committee, with the exception of KyoAni this season. Studios not on the committee or at the bottom don't stand to lose any or much money though on the flipside, they don't stand to make much from a mega hit either. The more risk, the more money you pony up for the project, the more money you stand to make if it is a great success but also the more you stand to lose if it flops. And this is no different from when LoveLive or Monogatari or AOT dominate a season. No different at all. Why is this suddenly a problem because YOI may sell the most (UtaPri could still outsell it)? Nothing new. Nothing to see here. Move along... anime will survive. There will be moe shows and harem shows to see later. Not all shows will be about BL figure skaters just because of one successful show. I know it's fun to worry and complain but do try to be a bit more realistic with your predictions. yes, I maintain what I said above. Most of that list are NOT new shows, so the sales are nothing new nor something that is promising for the media. And yes, i meant production committee. Although the studio is pretty much always part of it, even if for a small part. And NO this isn't suddenly a problem. If that was a one season only thing, then in reverse that wouldn't be a problem. Like you said it's happening all the time, and that's why it's a problem. The real problem isn't in the fact that a lot of series flop, but that there is to many series. Not only there is no space for so many series, but the huge amount of them detracts the viewers, that don't know where to look, and so normally just focus in 1 or 2 shows. And that is why you don't find an equilibrium. There should be less studios, doing less anime, and those anime should be longer. That would stabilize more the industry. And provide a bigger awareness of titles to the audience. With 33 new series just this season, how can a single person focus in all those titles to know what they want to buy of this season. Obviously they will forget majority of those series and just focus in 1 or 2, when possible if there was only 5 to 10 series, they would be able to focus on at least 4-5 series. |
Alienshroom said: Ill chime in by saying Flip Flappers did not offer an exciting Blu-ray package. I am buying Hibike! Euphonium 2 or I would have tried to get Flip Flappers.(Which unless there is something I dont know about the chart, vol 1 of Hibike! Euphonium 2 completely sold out because I cant find it anywhere pretty much and it should still be on there somewhere for this week no?) If you care a lot about Flip Flappers, buy a volume of it. If the show does pick up a cult following later on, which it already somewhat has, they might retain a good chunk of their value. Sadly Japanese producers doesn't care what the westeners think and from what I've read Flip Flappers left a bad impression among the Japanese viewers. But I'm still buying the FF blu-ray by next month. |
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bigivelfhq said: It's an open, competitive market and in that market the response from producers over the past few years has been to make more shows, not less shows. If they are making enough money to survive using this current "shotgun" approach of making many shows a year and hoping that some will be big hits then who are we to tell them this approach is a mistake? If most of the projects lose money then they will stop supporting so many production committees and the problem will correct itself. As long as the members of the committees are intelligent and don't overextend themselves too much then they shouldn't go bankrupt in the process.Zefyris said: yes, I maintain what I said above. Most of that list are NOT new shows, so the sales are nothing new nor something that is promising for the media. And yes, i meant production committee. Although the studio is pretty much always part of it, even if for a small part. And NO this isn't suddenly a problem. If that was a one season only thing, then in reverse that wouldn't be a problem. Like you said it's happening all the time, and that's why it's a problem. The real problem isn't in the fact that a lot of series flop, but that there is to many series. Not only there is no space for so many series, but the huge amount of them detracts the viewers, that don't know where to look, and so normally just focus in 1 or 2 shows. And that is why you don't find an equilibrium. There should be less studios, doing less anime, and those anime should be longer. That would stabilize more the industry. And provide a bigger awareness of titles to the audience. With 33 new series just this season, how can a single person focus in all those titles to know what they want to buy of this season. Obviously they will forget majority of those series and just focus in 1 or 2, when possible if there was only 5 to 10 series, they would be able to focus on at least 4-5 series. Remember that there are revenue streams for which we don't know the sales numbers. It is possible that most of these productions do actually break even or better after you factor in all those other sources of income. We can only observe the effects as if the innards are mostly a black box. What we observe is more and more shows being made, even in the face of poor disc sales. This tells me that the disc sales don't matter that much in the overall scheme of things so we are wasting our time worrying about low disc sales. |
| Did people actually think Flip Flappers was going to sell well? lol. |
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Tyrel said: Did people actually think Flip Flappers was going to sell well? lol. If there was justice in this world. |
Tyrel said: Did I think it would make it over 1k? Yes, lol.Did people actually think Flip Flappers was going to sell well? lol. What the hell Japan. |
| Sales dont mean a ton when it comes to the anime itself anyway. If you look at Hibike! Euphonium this season you can notice a few things. While it is true it came from a great studio which helps it still does things to be admired. They knew what to expect sales wise with this project. They knew it was not going to be Love Live or something, but they still pushed it to the max. This second season of Hibike! Euphonium 2 even had a 45 minute long first episode. The show clearly has exceedingly high production values. It looks totally fantastic. It was well written, etc etc. However it does not have a big merchandise campaign, for whatever reason. A lot of shows rely heavily on big merchandise sales. Also the second season was quite a surprise, the first must have done somewhat well but they did not skimp out on the production quality of the second season. So the point being, its not making a great deal of money. If you look at something like Love Live Sunshine, which was riding off the success of the original Love Live, a very big success at that, you notice a few things. They gave LL fans the absolute bare bones package of a sequel. Firstly nothing is really spectacular or special about Love Live Sunshine, the animation is certainly nothing special, and the writing certainly is not great. I feel for what they are taking in, Sunshine should have had the production values at least somewhat rivaling the movie. The show is selling insanely well. Will they give fans a 24 episode season 2? Will they step up their game with the animation? Will we get a 45 minute episode? Im willing to bet its a big fat no. I like Love Live, I think its a nice series and I enjoy some of the music but I dont feel they are giving fans back as much love as they are receiving. So tl;dr good sales dont always translate into more or better content for fans. Bad sales dont always translate into negatives for fans either. |
I completely disagree with about LL Sunshine, I think it was great. Off-topic aside, you can make fun of me for expecting Flip Flappers to sell well, but I truly believe it deserves all the sales. All of them. It's a goddamn masterpiece, and the fact that there are people who fail to recognize that is simply a loss for them. |
bigivelfhq said: There should be less studios, doing less anime, and those anime should be longer. That would stabilize more the industry. And provide a bigger awareness of titles to the audience. That doesn't guarantee that it will sell or people will watch it and if it flops that's the end of a small/medium company. Lots of anime is targeted towards a specific audience that's why it can thrive, I'm sure touken ranbu doesn't care about the normal audience or males that much. |
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FlareKnight said: 1k isn't good in terms of sales. Something like 3K+ is, I think? Someone correct me what the sales need to be on average to cover the costs.Tyrel said: Did I think it would make it over 1k? Yes, lol.Did people actually think Flip Flappers was going to sell well? lol. What the hell Japan. |
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hpulley said: bigivelfhq said: It's an open, competitive market and in that market the response from producers over the past few years has been to make more shows, not less shows. If they are making enough money to survive using this current "shotgun" approach of making many shows a year and hoping that some will be big hits then who are we to tell them this approach is a mistake? If most of the projects lose money then they will stop supporting so many production committees and the problem will correct itself. As long as the members of the committees are intelligent and don't overextend themselves too much then they shouldn't go bankrupt in the process.The real problem isn't in the fact that a lot of series flop, but that there is to many series. Not only there is no space for so many series, but the huge amount of them detracts the viewers, that don't know where to look, and so normally just focus in 1 or 2 shows. And that is why you don't find an equilibrium. There should be less studios, doing less anime, and those anime should be longer. That would stabilize more the industry. And provide a bigger awareness of titles to the audience. With 33 new series just this season, how can a single person focus in all those titles to know what they want to buy of this season. Obviously they will forget majority of those series and just focus in 1 or 2, when possible if there was only 5 to 10 series, they would be able to focus on at least 4-5 series. Remember that there are revenue streams for which we don't know the sales numbers. It is possible that most of these productions do actually break even or better after you factor in all those other sources of income. We can only observe the effects as if the innards are mostly a black box. What we observe is more and more shows being made, even in the face of poor disc sales. This tells me that the disc sales don't matter that much in the overall scheme of things so we are wasting our time worrying about low disc sales. There is a distinct different between a mistake and a problem. I never said the way thing are going is a mistake. And I also never talked anything about breaking even or not. What I talked was about the equilibrium and stabilization in the industry and how much series people focused on. ichii_1 said: bigivelfhq said: There should be less studios, doing less anime, and those anime should be longer. That would stabilize more the industry. And provide a bigger awareness of titles to the audience. That doesn't guarantee that it will sell or people will watch it and if it flops that's the end of a small/medium company. Lots of anime is targeted towards a specific audience that's why it can thrive, I'm sure touken ranbu doesn't care about the normal audience or males that much. Bigger awareness guarantees better performance! While that can't be said in an individual basis, talking about a group of series it certainly does. And who said that there should exist as much small/medium companies as we have right now? One of the problems is that we have a ton of small companies. That is included in "less studios". Something being targeted towards a specific audience can also be done with less studios, doing less anime, and those anime being longer! Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button. |
ShockedJan 11, 2017 4:37 PM
bigivelfhq said: More marketing dollars spent on fewer shows could help but that's all part of the show's budget. Some shows get tons of marketing and do well, others get tons of marketing and still bomb. It is difficult knowing what shows people will buy. They aren't drones. Just because they see a lot of ads doesn't mean they'll buy it. They might have a chance of buying it, otherwise they may not even watch it but it's tricky. Saying it is guaranteed that bigger awareness gives better performance is incorrect. There is no simple formula of more marketing dollars equals more revenue. Ad agencies would like that to be true but it isn't that simple.ichii_1 said: That doesn't guarantee that it will sell or people will watch it and if it flops that's the end of a small/medium company. Lots of anime is targeted towards a specific audience that's why it can thrive, I'm sure touken ranbu doesn't care about the normal audience or males that much. Bigger awareness guarantees better performance! While that can be said by an individual basis, talking about a group of series it certainly does. And who said that there should exist as much small/medium companies as we have right now? One of the problems is that we have a ton of small companies. That is included in "less studios". Something being targeted towards a specific audience can also be done with less studios, doing less anime, and those anime being longer! Longer shows will NOT help. It is a much bigger risk to make longer shows. Look at Endride and Drrr s2's 3 parts. Look at the horrible sales of the first cours of those shows. I bet they were kicking themselves for making more than 12 episodes of those shows. It is very risky that you'll be stuck making more episodes of bombs. It is much safer to make 10-13 episodes and see how it does before committing to more. Less shows may not help either. Fewer shows may still mean all bombs. |
hpulley said: bigivelfhq said: More marketing dollars spent on fewer shows could help but that's all part of the show's budget. Some shows get tons of marketing and do well, others get tons of marketing and still bomb. It is difficult knowing what shows people will buy. They aren't drones. Just because they see a lot of ads doesn't mean they'll buy it. They might have a chance of buying it, otherwise they may not even watch it but it's tricky. Saying it is guaranteed that bigger awareness gives better performance is incorrect. There is no simple formula of more marketing dollars equals more revenue. Ad agencies would like that to be true but it isn't that simple.Bigger awareness guarantees better performance! While that can be said by an individual basis, talking about a group of series it certainly does. And who said that there should exist as much small/medium companies as we have right now? One of the problems is that we have a ton of small companies. That is included in "less studios". Something being targeted towards a specific audience can also be done with less studios, doing less anime, and those anime being longer! Longer shows will NOT help. It is a much bigger risk to make longer shows. Look at Endride and Drrr s2's 3 parts. Look at the horrible sales of the first cours of those shows. I bet they were kicking themselves for making more than 12 episodes of those shows. It is very risky that you'll be stuck making more episodes of bombs. It is much safer to make 10-13 episodes and see how it does before committing to more. Less shows may not help either. Fewer shows may still mean all bombs. And that is why the most profitable and with the biggest success rate are the companies that do less and longer shows! It must be luck that Toei Animation does 2-5 times more than the 2nd place! Oh, and it must also be luck that the Top 5(not counting Toei in 1st place) are always studios that does less and/or longer, like Studio Ghibli, TMS Entertainment, Sunrise, Studio Pierrot, OLM, Shin-Ei Animation, Madhouse(when it was doing AAA Movies and had Long Running series like Lilo & Stich) and Gonzo(When it was popular), Production I.G(With their AAA Movies). Is totally unrelated that middle size companies try to get together and make Longer series, like Madhouse x Production I.G with Ace of Diamond, and A1-Pictures x Satelight/Bridge with Fairy Tail. Or even alone A1-Pictures with Space Brothers and Madhouse with Hunter x Hunter. Yep, there is also no correlation between Kyoto Animation doing less series than most other companies in the industry and having a better profit than most. Yep. Doing a ton of shorts series is the way to go. What does the Big companies in the industry know about ... the industry? Obviously nothing. |
bigivelfhqJan 11, 2017 3:22 PM
| I'm SOOOOOO disappointed in Flip flappers sales....just damn, Japan. ninryu said: Flip Flappers should have been in the first place. This |
bigivelfhq said: With the exception of KyoAni, you have just mentioned long running shounen adaptations plus movies. Most don't sell many discs because they air in a different time slot and are meant to create TV ratings, sell the original manga books, or movie ticket sales, not disc sales. Those sales models, aside from the manga bumps, are not applicable to most of the late night anime shows which are mostly covered in the sales thread here. Apples and oranges... Ghibli sells tickets and discs but again you can't compare that to YOI, Flip Flappers. Trying to make Flip Flappers into a long running Saturday morning show or a movie isn't going to change its fortunes. Completely different. hpulley said: More marketing dollars spent on fewer shows could help but that's all part of the show's budget. Some shows get tons of marketing and do well, others get tons of marketing and still bomb. It is difficult knowing what shows people will buy. They aren't drones. Just because they see a lot of ads doesn't mean they'll buy it. They might have a chance of buying it, otherwise they may not even watch it but it's tricky. Saying it is guaranteed that bigger awareness gives better performance is incorrect. There is no simple formula of more marketing dollars equals more revenue. Ad agencies would like that to be true but it isn't that simple. Longer shows will NOT help. It is a much bigger risk to make longer shows. Look at Endride and Drrr s2's 3 parts. Look at the horrible sales of the first cours of those shows. I bet they were kicking themselves for making more than 12 episodes of those shows. It is very risky that you'll be stuck making more episodes of bombs. It is much safer to make 10-13 episodes and see how it does before committing to more. Less shows may not help either. Fewer shows may still mean all bombs. And that is why the most profitable and with the biggest success rate are the companies that do less and longer shows! It must be luck that Toei Animation does 2-5 times more than the 2nd place! Oh, and it must also be luck that the Top 5(not counting Toei in 1st place) are always studios that does less and/or longer, like Studio Ghibli, TMS Entertainment, Sunrise, Studio Pierrot, OLM, Shin-Ei Animation, Madhouse(when it was doing AAA Movies and had Long Running series like Lilo & Stich) and Gonzo(When it was popular), Production I.G(With their AAA Movies). Is totally unrelated that middle size companies try to get together and make Longer series, like Madhouse x Production I.G with Ace of Diamond, and A1-Pictures x Satelight/Bridge with Fairy Tail. Or even alone A1-Pictures with Space Brothers and Madhouse with Hunter x Hunter. Yep, there is also no correlation between Kyoto Animation doing less series than most other companies in the industry and having a better profit than most. Yep. Doing a ton of shorts series is the way to go. What does the Big companies in the industry know about ... the industry? Obviously nothing. Same goes for super long running franchises like Gundam where of course you can make 26 episode series to sell plastic models. That's the very old sales model which most shows can't take advantage of. Anime would be very limited if that's all that got made, shows which qualified for those you listed. Flip Flappers and YOI wouldn't be made at all. |
hpulleyJan 11, 2017 5:59 PM
Zefyris said: hpulley said: Every other show? Hardly. UtaPri, Touken Ranbu, Haikyuu!!!, Drifters, Bungou Stray Dogs 2, Eupu2, www.Working, Natsume Go, even Vivid Strike probably more than broke even this season with the first 4-5 at least likely making very good money. Next, unless you meant "production committee" instead of Studio, your comment shows you don't understand how most anime works. Most studios are either at the bottom of the committee or are not even on the committee, with the exception of KyoAni this season. Studios not on the committee or at the bottom don't stand to lose any or much money though on the flipside, they don't stand to make much from a mega hit either. The more risk, the more money you pony up for the project, the more money you stand to make if it is a great success but also the more you stand to lose if it flops. And this is no different from when LoveLive or Monogatari or AOT dominate a season. No different at all. Why is this suddenly a problem because YOI may sell the most (UtaPri could still outsell it)? Nothing new. Nothing to see here. Move along... anime will survive. There will be moe shows and harem shows to see later. Not all shows will be about BL figure skaters just because of one successful show. I know it's fun to worry and complain but do try to be a bit more realistic with your predictions. yes, I maintain what I said above. Most of that list are NOT new shows, so the sales are nothing new nor something that is promising for the media. And yes, i meant production committee. Although the studio is pretty much always part of it, even if for a small part. And NO this isn't suddenly a problem. If that was a one season only thing, then in reverse that wouldn't be a problem. Like you said it's happening all the time, and that's why it's a problem. I don't know how anyone could make this argument when you look at a chart with a completely original series with no established franchise selling a 60k volume. When is the last time thats happened? Macross in 2008? |
| *1. 7,940 43,393 Yuri!!! on Ice Vol.1 Meanwhile.... *3. 1,597 34,989 Kizumonogatari II: Nekketsu-hen Limited Edition And even worse yet... *8. *,883 **,883 Flip Flappers Vol.1 *facepalm* And this is where I knew for sure Japan's taste is absolutely awful. Good stuff rarely sells in Japan. To get sales you need the Tropes or the fujoshi. Let's be frank, YoI is not selling because of some groundbreaking representation. It played very grossly by the fujoshi rules in the end. It sells because it is targeted at fujoshi audience. A damn shame. Flip Flappers was easily one of THE best shows of the season and one of only few shows worth watching. We are legit living in the universe where Yuri on Ice sold more than a whole fucking movie release of Kizumonogatari 2. God fucking damnit Japan. |
AhenshihaelJan 11, 2017 10:18 PM
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Fai said: *1. 7,940 43,393 Yuri!!! on Ice Vol.1 Meanwhile.... *3. 1,597 34,989 Kizumonogatari II: Nekketsu-hen Limited Edition And even worse yet... *8. *,883 **,883 Flip Flappers Vol.1 *facepalm* And this is where I knew for sure Japan's taste is absolutely awful. Good stuff rarely sells in Japan. To get sales you need the Tropes or the fujoshi. Let's be frank, YoI is not selling because of some groundbreaking representation. It played very grossly by the fujoshi rules in the end. It sells because it is targeted at fujoshi audience. A damn shame. Flip Flappers was easily one of THE best shows of the season and one of only few shows worth watching. We are legit living in the universe where Yuri on Ice sold more than a whole fucking movie release of Kizumonogatari 2. God fucking damnit Japan. It would not have outsold it without the event ticket its bundled with. Also it had a much better Blu-ray package then a lot of shows this season. So did Love Live Sunshine.(Seiyuu interviews, training videos, location tours, exclusive to BD Aqours singles etc) I dont think many people buy the Blu-rays for the actual disc, but for the extras in addition. Flip Flappers might have done better in another season, but this time around people just found better series to invest into. Just to be clear, I am not a YOI fan and I enjoyed Flip Flappers. I only have enough money to buy 1 series and I chose Hibike Euphonium. |
ReikuoJan 12, 2017 12:45 AM
| I love LoveLive but I think Sunshine did worse in part because its Bluray packages are not as good as in Muse' LoveLive. Since they haven't done a big concert yet there is little concert footage so instead there are some silly live action segments: not as good. Because Apple cracked down on out of game purchases there are no mobile game codes: again worse than before. Now you get a physical sticker of the card instead, and a card from their physical card collecting game. The bonus CDs are great but since the members of Aqours are not as experienced they are not doing solos or duets. Small detail but this makes the bonus CDs a bit less unique being either years or the full group. I wish they'd at least done the subunits. They added tickets to volumes 5-7 as a desperation measure to increase sales since the ticketed volumes 1-2 did much better than volumes 3-4 without tickets. I love Aqours but their sales so far are lagging Muse. I hope things pick up after their first big live concert next month. At least that concert will give them better bonus footage to include in the season 2 BDs. |
hpulley said: bigivelfhq said: With the exception of KyoAni, you have just mentioned long running shounen adaptations plus movies. Most don't sell many discs because they air in a different time slot and are meant to create TV ratings, sell the original manga books, or movie ticket sales, not disc sales. Those sales models, aside from the manga bumps, are not applicable to most of the late night anime shows which are mostly covered in the sales thread here. Apples and oranges... Ghibli sells tickets and discs but again you can't compare that to YOI, Flip Flappers. Trying to make Flip Flappers into a long running Saturday morning show or a movie isn't going to change its fortunes. Completely different. And that is why the most profitable and with the biggest success rate are the companies that do less and longer shows! It must be luck that Toei Animation does 2-5 times more than the 2nd place! Oh, and it must also be luck that the Top 5(not counting Toei in 1st place) are always studios that does less and/or longer, like Studio Ghibli, TMS Entertainment, Sunrise, Studio Pierrot, OLM, Shin-Ei Animation, Madhouse(when it was doing AAA Movies and had Long Running series like Lilo & Stich) and Gonzo(When it was popular), Production I.G(With their AAA Movies). Is totally unrelated that middle size companies try to get together and make Longer series, like Madhouse x Production I.G with Ace of Diamond, and A1-Pictures x Satelight/Bridge with Fairy Tail. Or even alone A1-Pictures with Space Brothers and Madhouse with Hunter x Hunter. Yep, there is also no correlation between Kyoto Animation doing less series than most other companies in the industry and having a better profit than most. Yep. Doing a ton of shorts series is the way to go. What does the Big companies in the industry know about ... the industry? Obviously nothing. Same goes for super long running franchises like Gundam where of course you can make 26 episode series to sell plastic models. That's the very old sales model which most shows can't take advantage of. Anime would be very limited if that's all that got made, shows which qualified for those you listed. Flip Flappers and YOI wouldn't be made at all. What has the sales model and the demographic anything to do with fewer and longer series not helping and I giving you justification and evidence why that is not true? And yep a company that make longer and fewer shows where all of them are flops will get out of business, how it should be! About the bigger awareness bringing definetily bigger money. With more people knowing, hearing other people talking about ,and watching your show; it means that the series will in the end get the same popularity or bigger than otherwise. Do we agree on that? That an individual series with more awareness will never sell less nor be less popular. Now, this means that talking at the group perspective we will havê more chances for the "doing better" to happen, making the probability of it performing better much higher than just in an individual manner. Talking many series and many seasons and many Years, is absolutely certain that we will at least get ONE series improving from the added awareness and making the all industry better than it was before without this added awareness. About longer shows. Is not about doing flops longer, but success longer, and in a more continuou manner. |
bigivelfhqJan 12, 2017 1:33 AM
daggerswithroses said: Zefyris said: yes, I maintain what I said above. Most of that list are NOT new shows, so the sales are nothing new nor something that is promising for the media. And yes, i meant production committee. Although the studio is pretty much always part of it, even if for a small part. And NO this isn't suddenly a problem. If that was a one season only thing, then in reverse that wouldn't be a problem. Like you said it's happening all the time, and that's why it's a problem. I don't know how anyone could make this argument when you look at a chart with a completely original series with no established franchise selling a 60k volume. When is the last time thats happened? Macross in 2008? Seems like you didn't follow the conversation. Precisely, once again, it's ONE show that takes that, meaning pretty much anything else that isn"t already guaranteed sales by being a sequel failed to bring back enough money for the production committees. One show+sequels taking all or sequel taking all isn't especially anything better. And that was what I'm talking about. |
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Zefyris said: daggerswithroses said: I don't know how anyone could make this argument when you look at a chart with a completely original series with no established franchise selling a 60k volume. When is the last time thats happened? Macross in 2008? Seems like you didn't follow the conversation. Precisely, once again, it's ONE show that takes that, meaning pretty much anything else that isn"t already guaranteed sales by being a sequel failed to bring back enough money for the production committees. One show+sequels taking all or sequel taking all isn't especially anything better. And that was what I'm talking about. What? Touken Ranbu isn't a sequel? Drifters isnt a sequel? Unless you're counting adaptations as sequels, in which case nearly everything is a sequel as anime makes its money from being an advertising medium, and Yuri on Ices huge success is a great step. This has been one of the most successful seasons for nonsequels in a long time. This season had two non sequels do better than any other non sequel this year and anything that sold in Winter or Spring. (Pretty sure Drifters and Touken Ranbu will edge out Konosuba and ReZero for the last two places in this years top 5) And, of course, with a giant original series like we haven't seen in almost a decade to top it off. Anime is made on margins. Most anime "fail" (though a lot eventually break even over time), but the success of a few series pays for it. |
daggerswithroses said: Zefyris said: Seems like you didn't follow the conversation. Precisely, once again, it's ONE show that takes that, meaning pretty much anything else that isn"t already guaranteed sales by being a sequel failed to bring back enough money for the production committees. One show+sequels taking all or sequel taking all isn't especially anything better. And that was what I'm talking about. What? Touken Ranbu isn't a sequel? Drifters isnt a sequel? Unless you're counting adaptations as sequels, in which case nearly everything is a sequel as anime makes its money from being an advertising medium, and Yuri on Ices huge success is a great step. This has been one of the most successful seasons for nonsequels in a long time. This season had two non sequels do better than any other non sequel this year and anything that sold in Winter or Spring. (Pretty sure Drifters and Touken Ranbu will edge out Konosuba and ReZero for the last two places in this years top 5) And, of course, with a giant original series like we haven't seen in almost a decade to top it off. Anime is made on margins. Most anime "fail" (though a lot eventually break even over time), but the success of a few series pays for it. :rolleyes: Keep missing my point. Also the few success don't "pay for it" because that's not the same studios, not the same productions committees, and so on. |
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Zefyris said: daggerswithroses said: What? Touken Ranbu isn't a sequel? Drifters isnt a sequel? Unless you're counting adaptations as sequels, in which case nearly everything is a sequel as anime makes its money from being an advertising medium, and Yuri on Ices huge success is a great step. This has been one of the most successful seasons for nonsequels in a long time. This season had two non sequels do better than any other non sequel this year and anything that sold in Winter or Spring. (Pretty sure Drifters and Touken Ranbu will edge out Konosuba and ReZero for the last two places in this years top 5) And, of course, with a giant original series like we haven't seen in almost a decade to top it off. Anime is made on margins. Most anime "fail" (though a lot eventually break even over time), but the success of a few series pays for it. :rolleyes: Keep missing my point. Also the few success don't "pay for it" because that's not the same studios, not the same productions committees, and so on. The point you made in your last post was wrong, so no, I don't understand. And you're looking at things on a seasonal basis for each committee which is obviously wrong. (Though Avex produced Long Riders and Yuri on Ice this season, and has already gotten money back on that investment) You act like committees are monolithic things that get a profit from a show and split it evenly between members, which is ridiculous. Some shows are profitable for part of the committee and not for other parts depending what money the show makes from where. Asahi, for instance, is getting YoI streaming money and whatever Funis paying for a US release as it is the international rights holder on the committee. |
daggerswithrosesJan 12, 2017 6:48 AM
Fai said: *1. 7,940 43,393 Yuri!!! on Ice Vol.1 Meanwhile.... *3. 1,597 34,989 Kizumonogatari II: Nekketsu-hen Limited Edition And even worse yet... *8. *,883 **,883 Flip Flappers Vol.1 *facepalm* And this is where I knew for sure Japan's taste is absolutely awful. Good stuff rarely sells in Japan. To get sales you need the Tropes or the fujoshi. Let's be frank, YoI is not selling because of some groundbreaking representation. It played very grossly by the fujoshi rules in the end. It sells because it is targeted at fujoshi audience. There are a bazillion of shows like that every season, heck check how much Trickster is selling even with Gackt (badly) voicing one of the characters. YoI preorder spiked after episode 7, it sold because it broke the status quo and it gave people what they wanted and more. It did not, by any definition, played by the usual fujoshi rules (which would be something like Free or even swords this season) and hence was reward sales-wise. <your favorite show> not selling is not a result of YoI, but that part of the otaku market either not spending money on anime or spending them for some other anime (Which I guess would be Kizu or LL?). Sad! |
Jin_uzukiJan 12, 2017 7:35 AM
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Jin_uzuki said: YoI preorder spiked after episode 7, it sold because it broke the status quo and it gave people what they wanted and more. It did not, by any definition, played by the usual fujoshi rules (which would be something like Free or even swords this season) It still despite all the claims of breaking new grounds and the kiss scene(which the show proceeded to ignore), kept the relationship ambiguous and subtextual all the way through the show without any real progress. Thats pretty much basic rules of yaoi writing in terms of fujobait. Fujoshi do not want actual lgbt pairings and relationships, because they can't insert themselves into such a story. Not to mention that YoI was a mess in various other aspects including animation quality, production values and narrative writing. The only possible thing I can deduce from that is that it sold because of fujoshi audience, which it targeted. |
AhenshihaelJan 12, 2017 7:38 AM
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Fai said: Jin_uzuki said: YoI preorder spiked after episode 7, it sold because it broke the status quo and it gave people what they wanted and more. It did not, by any definition, played by the usual fujoshi rules (which would be something like Free or even swords this season) It still despite all the claims of breaking new grounds, kept the relationship ambiguous and subtextual all the way through the show without any real progress. Alas, most people don't share this delusion and hence per-orders spiked with episode 7 and 10 when they got concrete in-show evidences and progresses. Maybe Flip-Flapper should have tried more like YoI. Oh wait, Yuri doesn't sell. Sad! |
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Jin_uzuki said: Alas, most people don't share this delusion and hence per-orders spiked with episode 7 and 10 when they got concrete in-show evidences and progresses. I am perfectly aware on how queerbaiting works thank you very much and there's nothing delusion about the fact that show refused to adress the pairing as pairing in a concrete way despite the "proof" which made it all the more jarring. The kiss happens yet it is never ever EVER brought up by the characters. The characters never clearly discuss their relationship nor others adress it as romantic relationship. Its bait. Plain and simple. Bait. I was actually hyped and hopeful after the kiss episode that the show will break the ice, but the show resorted to traditional baiting techniques instead. It was huge disappointment. All shows to bait this year were. Even Flip Flappers did not outright directly confirm the relationship despite love declarations actually happening. Its all bait. The Author can say whatever they want but the show chickened out in doing anything that would break boundaries. And that makes sense, if it actually broke boundaries, otaku audience would shun it. Now since it is just bait, the show can bait both the actual LGBT audience and still attract otaku/fujoshi crowd. Maybe Flip-Flapper should have tried more like YoI. Oh wait, Yuri doesn't sell. Sad! No shows sell because of "yaoi" or "yuri". Actually gay characters DO NOT sell in japan because of how society works. Shows sell due to fanservice and catering to specific audiences. In YoI case that's fujoshi. Flip Flappers overall was just unique in terms of its structure and presentation for Japanese audiences. A whole episode criticizing queerbaiting in general also certainly did not help as Japanese get quite angry for people daring to speak up about industry problems. |
AhenshihaelJan 12, 2017 7:52 AM
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Fai said: I am perfectly aware on how queerbaiting works thank you very much and there's nothing delusion about the fact that show refused to adress the pairing as pairing in a concrete way despite the "proof" which made it all the more jarring. The kiss happens yet it is never ever EVER brought up by the characters. The characters never clearly discuss their relationship nor others adress it as romantic relationship. Its bait. Plain and simple. Bait. It's OK to be delusional, just understand that your opinion is a very minority and not widely shared, hence the 60k in sales. If you weren't, then you would understand why your average fujobait is selling 10k, while preorders spike after episode 7 and YoI sold 60k |
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| >pretty much basic rules of yaoi writing in terms of fujobait. Fujoshi do not want actual lgbt pairings and relationships, because they can't insert themselves into such a story. lolwat? think you're talking about otome fans. just because your western ass saw it as ~queerbait~ doesn't mean thats how japanese fans saw it. |
Fai said: It's not discussed because the romantic part of their relationship was never the main point of the show. I thought that everyone already knew this but I guess not.I am perfectly aware on how queerbaiting works thank you very much and there's nothing delusion about the fact that show refused to adress the pairing as pairing in a concrete way despite the "proof" which made it all the more jarring. The kiss happens yet it is never ever EVER brought up by the characters. The characters never clearly discuss their relationship nor others adress it as romantic relationship. Its bait. Plain and simple. Bait. |
Raina- said: Fai said: It's not discussed because the romantic part of their relationship was never the main point of the show. I thought that everyone already knew this but I guess not.I am perfectly aware on how queerbaiting works thank you very much and there's nothing delusion about the fact that show refused to adress the pairing as pairing in a concrete way despite the "proof" which made it all the more jarring. The kiss happens yet it is never ever EVER brought up by the characters. The characters never clearly discuss their relationship nor others adress it as romantic relationship. Its bait. Plain and simple. Bait. A show can acknowledge something exists without making it main point of narrative. That's where YoI failed hard. The whole "oh it should be in background and not the focus" is also just buzzwords. A relationship either tangibly exists or not. YOI episodes after the kiss felt like I am watching Supernatural or Sherlock episodes. If actual LGBT community got baited into giving sales because of that then it is really sad, albeit I am still of belief most of those sales are fujoshi audience. |
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Fai said: Raina- said: It's not discussed because the romantic part of their relationship was never the main point of the show. I thought that everyone already knew this but I guess not. A show can acknowledge something exists without making it main point of narrative. That's where YoI failed hard. The whole "oh it should be in background and not the focus" is also just buzzwords. A relationship either tangibly exists or not. YOI episodes after the kiss felt like I am watching Supernatural or Sherlock episodes. If actual LGBT community got baited into giving sales because of that then it is really sad, albeit I am still of belief most of those sales are fujoshi audience. Well im not against enjoying the show, but there is no doubt this is getting a huge pass on stuff that it would not be getting if the cast was female. To each their own but you can at least acknowledge a genuine criticism about the show and still enjoy it. When it comes to this show people just want to shout you down. |
Fai said: Raina- said: It's not discussed because the romantic part of their relationship was never the main point of the show. I thought that everyone already knew this but I guess not. A show can acknowledge something exists without making it main point of narrative. That's where YoI failed hard. The whole "oh it should be in background and not the focus" is also just buzzwords. A relationship either tangibly exists or not. YOI episodes after the kiss felt like I am watching Supernatural or Sherlock episodes. If actual LGBT community got baited into giving sales because of that then it is really sad, albeit I am still of belief most of those sales are fujoshi audience. You don't even know what "bait" is. Stop using it as a buzzword. No one got baited, the characters did not turn straight or got girlfriends. It's basically impossible to think they are straight without mental gymnastics. The audience not only got what they wanted, but the show pushed it beyond that which it's why the sales exploded. The fact that you compare it to Sherlock where one of the characters got married and the writers repeatedly shut that down show you either lack of of a proper understanding of what is happening on screen or are just in denial for whatever reason. If you want to think "yes, they are straight. the show is straight" that's your business, but understand no one actually thinks that but a very minority in denial for whatever reason. Hence 60k sales from a segment of people tired of writers hyping up stuff and never delivering. No need to feel sad for the LGBT audience. Most people quite like the show because they are not in denial on what is happening. |
Jin_uzukiJan 12, 2017 10:07 AM
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Reikuo said: Fai said: A show can acknowledge something exists without making it main point of narrative. That's where YoI failed hard. The whole "oh it should be in background and not the focus" is also just buzzwords. A relationship either tangibly exists or not. YOI episodes after the kiss felt like I am watching Supernatural or Sherlock episodes. If actual LGBT community got baited into giving sales because of that then it is really sad, albeit I am still of belief most of those sales are fujoshi audience. Well im not against enjoying the show, but there is no doubt this is getting a huge pass on stuff that it would not be getting if the cast was female. To each their own but you can at least acknowledge a genuine criticism about the show and still enjoy it. When it comes to this show people just want to shout you down. If the cast was female, we wouldnt be having this discussion because MAL wouldnt be so pissed a show with a majority female audience got really popular. This happens every time. |
| *8. *,883 **,883 Flip Flappers Vol.1 kys japan |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| People have mentioned several times that Flip Flappers should not have been expected to sell, because it essentially had no concrete audience. The real tragedy here goes beyond Flip Flappers - the tragedy is that there apparently is no sizable, paying audience for shows LIKE Flip Flappers. Flip Flappers is only the latest case study demonstrating how creativity and originality apparently can't stand on their own; they have to be attached to something catering (the more cynical might say "pandering") to a specific demographic. This situation is simply a business reality, but it doesn't change the fact that it is unfortunate and shouldn't be normalized by just saying "that's the way it is." Everyone who bitches and moans that "anime is dying" doesn't seem to realize that shows like Flip Flappers are actively trying to "save anime." The problem is that they are getting crucified by the rabble - in this case the Japanese anime consumers. |
raegazelJan 14, 2017 12:21 AM
raegazel said: That seems like a very long winded version of you saying "I think Japan has shit taste." I don't think that's fair. If people would prefer to watch and buy Yuuri on Ice or Drifters than Flip Flappers then that's their choice! People have mentioned several times that Flip Flappers should not have been expected to sell, because it essentially had no concrete audience. The real tragedy here goes beyond Flip Flappers - the tragedy is that there apparently is no sizable, paying audience for shows LIKE Flip Flappers. Flip Flappers is only the latest case study demonstrating how creativity and originality apparently can't stand on their own; they have to be attached to something catering (the more cynical might say "pandering") to a specific demographic. This situation is simply a business reality, but it doesn't change the fact that it is unfortunate and shouldn't be normalized by just saying "that's the way it is." Everyone who bitches and moans that "anime is dying" doesn't seem to realize that shows like Flip Flappers are actively trying to "save anime." The problem is that they are getting crucified by the rabble - in this case the Japanese anime consumers. Flip Flappers wasn't "crucified" by anyone. It just wasn't that popular. In most recent online polls about favorite or most satisfying anime, voted on by Japanese people, Flip Flappers isn't even making the list. It just wasn't on people's radar at all. Whose fault is that? Did the show not market itself well enough? Were the PVs a turn off? Whatever the reason, most Japanese viewers just didn't care for it, certainly not enough for more than a few of them to buy it. It really is just the way it is. Same thing happens in the west. The most creative little movie that no one saw probably won't win the Oscars either. Just about everything turns out to be a popularity contest in the end and to win that, you need to cater to someone, a lot of someones. A tiny movie with no marketing can do really well but it needs to hit the first audiences right where it counts, generate buzz and word of mouth to bring more people in. But big popular productions with big popular actors usually win the sales and the awards. The customer is always right. You can't blame them for not wanting to buy the product. You can be creative all you want but you always need to remember your customers. Wishing for an audience isn't enough, you need to know who your audience is and make a product to sell to that audience. The product, the marketing, it's job is to make you want to watch it and make you want to buy it. That's not the customer's job. With anime you have a very short window to make that impression. The PVs and the first few episodes, the first few minutes of the first episode. Especially for original anime like Flip Flappers. If you blow that chance, you're done. Flip Flappers blew it. Simple as that. |
hpulleyJan 14, 2017 3:46 AM
daggerswithroses said: Reikuo said: Well im not against enjoying the show, but there is no doubt this is getting a huge pass on stuff that it would not be getting if the cast was female. To each their own but you can at least acknowledge a genuine criticism about the show and still enjoy it. When it comes to this show people just want to shout you down. If the cast was female, we wouldnt be having this discussion because MAL wouldnt be so pissed a show with a majority female audience got really popular. This happens every time. daggerswithroses said: Reikuo said: Well im not against enjoying the show, but there is no doubt this is getting a huge pass on stuff that it would not be getting if the cast was female. To each their own but you can at least acknowledge a genuine criticism about the show and still enjoy it. When it comes to this show people just want to shout you down. If the cast was female, we wouldnt be having this discussion because MAL wouldnt be so pissed a show with a majority female audience got really popular. This happens every time. How dare women support Yuri on Ice and Touken Ranbu iinstead buy ecchi-harem-fanservice show??? Hmmm... such a mystery. I think Flip Flappers flop because it's an original anime from relatively new studio with an unknown director and seiyuu. |
KyokutouJan 16, 2017 9:24 PM
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